Problems With Magnetic Reconnection

LOL

how about you getting along with modern developments of numerical modeling? In ideal MHD (the Alfvén thingy) there can be no parallel electric fields because the plasma is infinitely conducting. However .... as no numerical code is perfect (rounding errors because of 8-16-32-64 bit accuracy of the numbers) there will be what is called numerical diffusion which is equivalent to the plasma having a finite resistivity.

Then modern day modelling uses MDH, resistive MHD, Hall MHD.
Or they use hybrid codes where the electrons are a fluid and the ions are particles.
Or they use PIC (particle in cell) codes.
All of them can be used with adaptive grids, to get better resolution in the interesting regions.

Catch up with the times, michaelsuede, we are living in 2011 not in the 1980s.

Perhaps he is a New Waver or a New Romantic and is feeling nostalgic.
 
Did you even read the comments that I made on that paper, 2 pages ago? It has zilch to do with MRx, please give some founded comments on my summary of the Onel & Mann paper.

FYI, I've never really had any issue with your comments, or your position to be quite honest. The only thing I find "frustrating" about your position is your refusal to "meet me in the middle" and accept that the circuit orientation is equally viable, equally well suited to describe events in plasma, and equally capable of being applied to all these same topics. Instead of meeting me in the middle, you're dragging your feet, kicking and screaming and ignoring the logic entirely. Maxwell's equations are all about the relationship between E and B and they are interchangeable in math formulas.

And just for fun, to show how much mainstream space physics is suppressing the E approach of plasma physics, in less than an hour I will go to the EGU Alfvén medal lecture. This year the recipient is Syun-Ichi Akasofu and his medal lecture has the title "The choice of the concept of magnetic field lines or of electric current lines."

And when you get back, please tell us what you've learned. I really would be curious to know.
 
I get the distinct feeling that the last part of your sentence is your "out" so you can use it as an excuse to NOT read the work of a Nobel Prize winning physicist. Does Weinberg have a Nobel?

I'd settle for seeing you commenting on that paper by Mann and Onel. You guys sort of glossed right over that one.


I commented on it more than once, but for the record, on March 2nd, 2010, over a year ago in this post. On March 29, 2011, tusenfem commented on it in this post, and on April 1, 2011, in this post. Tubbythin made a comment on it on April 5, 2011 in this post. And Reality Check commented on it today, April 7, 2011, in this post. That's just the quickie list. Tim Thompson has commented on it several times. I seem to recall at least sol invictus, W.D.Clinger, ben m, DeiRenDopa, and Ziggurat commenting on the paper's lack of support or its irrelevance to the claim that there are problems with magnetic reconnection.

Unlike some around here, I can just admit when I am wrong.


Go ahead.

And it only took you 1 year and 3 months, probably rather more given that that post suggests it was far from the first time you'd been told. Well, I guess that's progress of a sort. You still seem to be struggling to admit you were wrong about all of physics, but at least we're getting somewhere.


So there are experts here in plasma physics and/or astrophysics who have read and commented on the Alfvén book. And there are several posters here, including some experts in plasma physics and/or astrophysics, who have read and commented on the Onel and Mann paper. The consensus seems to be that support for the claim about problems with magnetic reconnection is either nonexistent and/or has been superseded by more contemporary, more thorough, and more rigorous research.

Unlike some around here, I can just admit when I am wrong.


Yes?
 
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You're fuzzy on a lot of things, including basic electrodynamics. Which is why you still haven't done those basic calculations: you don't know how to.

But you can't bring yourself to admit that you can't.
Quick question, I don't have time to read the whole thread right now (this quote is from the second page)-
Did he ever provide the basic math requested?

If not, which excuse won out:

a) math is irrelevant
b) I won't be forced to bark math on command
 
You "get the distinct feeling" you'll understand modern cosmology when hell freezes over and pigs fly?

Ditto on how I feel about you. You haven't even read Alfven's work or at least not commented on it, so you have nothing to bitch about.

Tim Thompson mentioned the hypocrisy of your demand that everyone else read your holy book even as you refuse to read (and appear incapable of understanding) more relevant and more important books. My promise was just one concrete illustration of your hypocrisy.

This is your strawman. I simply asked you a simple question. I don't happen to know the names of every single Nobel Prize winning author on every topic under the sun. I'd simply not heard his name before. I never claimed his work was unimportant or unworthy of my time. That's you pathetic little personal attack strawman.


Thanks. That was actually useful information.

So you've been mentioning Alfvén's Nobel Prize in post after post as proof that Alfvén's book and papers are more important than books and papers by Steven Weinberg

I said nothing at all about either book or author being more or less important than any other book. Again, this is your own strawman. I simply asked a very innocent question. Notice how you all have this emotional need to 'attack the individual' rather than to deal with the materials present. How about YOU COMMENT ON MANN"S paper for us?

and other modern cosmologists, and never even bothered to check whether Steven Weinberg had won a Nobel Prize?

OMG! I was busy working, so I simply asked! Holy cow. Next time I'll just fire up a search engine and save myself the personal attack BS.

That's another concrete illustration of your ignorance and hypocrisy.

Well ignorance perhaps, but hypocrisy no. You seem to have completely ignored the fact that I accept the B oriented approach, I simply think you folks gave it a HORRIFIC name. You short circuit a couple of current carrying plasma filaments through a double layer and claim "magnetic reconnection did it". Alfven's method of double layer events is just as valid as yours orientation. That's the part you folks refuse to accept. Since I have already moved to a 'middle position", the only one of us that could possibly be called a hypocrite is you, not me. You refuse to accept Alfven's circuit explanations for the very same flare and magnetospheric events where you apply 'magnetic reconnection' theory, whereas I simply see them as flip sides of the same coin, just a B vs. E orientation. I simply think that you gave an *ELECTRICALLY ACTIVE* process a very *STUPID* title.

You're the one who won't even be bothered to read or comment on the circuit oriented material, yet you refuse to accept Alfven's circuit oriented approach to these very same events in space! Don't even *THINK* about lecturing me about hypocrisy until you've either read and commented on the flaw you found in Alfven's approach, or you accept his approach as being equally valid to any B oriented approach to DISCHARGE processes in plasma.
 
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I commented on it more than once, but for the record, on March 2nd, 2010, over a year ago in this post.

You mean you personally handwaved at their work with a single sentence over a year ago, and you've never done anything OTHER than handwave at any of the papers I have presented.

tusenfem and Tim are fully capable of speaking for themselves and they've already earned my respect, unlike you.

So there are experts here in plasma physics and/or astrophysics who have read and commented on the Alfvén book.

Ya, but you aren't one of them.

And there are several posters here, including some experts in plasma physics and/or astrophysics, who have read and commented on the Onel and Mann paper.

Ya, but again you aren't one of them.

The consensus seems to be that support for the claim about problems with magnetic reconnection is either nonexistent and/or has been superseded by more contemporary, more thorough, and more rigorous research.

You can't "supersede" the E oriented approach to plasma physics. It's always going to be inseparably linked to the B orientation via Maxwell's equations. If and when ANY of you ACCEPT THAT REALITY, you'll find me already positioned right in the middle. I've never rejected your math, just the absolutely *RIDICULOUS* name you gave a CURRENT CARRYING ENERGY EXCHANGE IN PLASMA.

Do you EVER intend to read or comment on any of Alfven's work. I've never seen you personally cite any flaw in his work on plasma physics, in fact I've never heard ANYONE cite a specific flaw in his work on MHD theory and plasma physics in general. About all I've ever seen is a lot of handwaving from you personally.
 
Quick question, I don't have time to read the whole thread right now (this quote is from the second page)-
Did he ever provide the basic math requested?

If not, which excuse won out:

a) math is irrelevant
b) I won't be forced to bark math on command

Yes, I provided a host of papers from Onel and Mann the explain the same kinds of flare events from the circuit oriented approach. Nobody has actually denied the validity of that work. Alfven wrote about magnetospheric processes that can be explained by a 'circuit' oriented approach, and again, I've never seen anyone find a flaw in that work either. I've provide math by experts. What they seem to want is for me to personally post math so they can *THEN* look for a flaw so that they can hope to ridicule the individual rather than to focus on the topic. They don't actually care about the math. They ignore it when it suits them.
 
And it only took you 1 year and 3 months, probably rather more given that that post suggests it was far from the first time you'd been told.

It may not have been the first time, but I had either missed that statement (God forbid) or forgotten. I don't profess to be perfect. I'm man enough to admit my mistakes too. I bash the TOPICs, whereas usually you folks fixate on the individual in my experience. I should never have attacked Tim like that to start with, so I technically wronged him twice, and I frankly think I got what I deserved.

Well, I guess that's progress of a sort. You still seem to be struggling to admit you were wrong about all of physics, but at least we're getting somewhere.

I guess I personally need to fixate on ONLY THIS topic lest my posts disappear, and in this case you're dead wrong. I've already admitted that your mathematical presentation are fine. I've simply complained about the absolutely ATROCIOUS title you slapped to a "current carrying' process.

You're the one's trying to claim Alfven's circuit oriented approach isn't just as valid, but Maxwell's equations prove conclusively that you are dead wrong.

In terms of the other "issues" I have with mainstream beliefs, I'll save my breath for the appropriate thread(s).
 
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Quick question, I don't have time to read the whole thread right now (this quote is from the second page)-
Did he ever provide the basic math requested?

If not, which excuse won out:

a) math is irrelevant
b) I won't be forced to bark math on command


Bark math on command...

Except I have provided papers on flares and megnetospheric activity (by Alfven) that require no sort of 'magnetic reconnection", and these are the places that supposedly produce such event. None of you have ever once found a flaw in Alfven's work. Your words are simply untrue IMO. What you want is for ME PERSONALLY do bark math for you on command or you refuse to read or address any of the math.
 
Oh holy moly, can you learn to READ MM? Tim is not saying that circuit theory is wrong for plasma physical processes (just like I am not saying that) but that it can only be applied in a certain way, e.g. on very large scales,

No, that's just your repeated claim that is without merit. You can add circuits and resistors at the appropriate places in a circuit oriented approach! The loops don't HAVE to be treated as singular things at the point of intersection. You could choose to add resistors and such to the appropriate places, show a change over time of the circuit topology and call it 'circuit reconection" any time you wish. Instead you see a change in magnetic field topology, ignore the currents that sustain them, and call it 'magnetic reconnection" even though no individual magnetic lines ever actually disconnected from or reconnected to any other actual magnetic lines!


Then please give a list of requirements that need to be fulfilled according to Alfvén.

The primary requirement is that no current could be flowing through the point in question, which pretty much rules out your whole approach and it also explains why he outright rejected the whole MR concept, along with the fact that individualized magnetic lines are physically incapable of disconnecting or reconnecting to other individual lines. You aren't just changing a magnetic field topology, your changing the circuit topology as well. How you choose to label that 'reconnection' event seems somewhat arbitrary at first glance. On the other hand circuit theory is consistent with electrical engineering and particle physics theory.


I know, naturally, about his exploding double layer, I have also shown at least one paper where it is concluded that such strong double layers will probably not exist in natural plasmas on the sun, I have shown a paper that shows that double layers in a solar loop will be annihilated because of the heating that takes place because of the beams shooting into the ambient plasma.

I don't doubt for a moment that the double layer that forms between the two circuits will be "explosive" and short lived.
 
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This is your strawman. I simply asked you a simple question. I don't happen to know the names of every single Nobel Prize winning author on every topic under the sun. I'd simply not heard his name before.
You haven't been paying attention. Weinberg's Cosmology is one of the best available books on modern cosmology, a subject in which you feign considerable interest.

You have replied to posts that practically begged you to pay attention to Steven Weinberg or to his books. Here's an example:
W.D.Clinger said:
As for your endless bleats about reading your holy texts, why should I read Peratt's Physics of the Plasma Universe when I could be reading Weinberg's Cosmology?

Steven WeinbergWP is a notable physicist, with a Nobel Prize in physics to his credit, and he's an excellent writer. Reading his book is a good use of my free time.
If you don't read my posts before replying to them, the fault is yours.

Notice how you all have this emotional need to 'attack the individual' rather than to deal with the materials present. How about YOU COMMENT ON MANN"S paper for us?
Shouting in capitals isn't emotional?

I looked at that paper a long time ago, and had nothing to add to tusenfem's expert analysis of it at that time, which he repeated in this thread on 29 March 2011:
tusenfem said:
Onel and Mann describe large e fields and use circuits. That has been discussed and has nothing to do with reconnection.

Please give me the E orientation of magnetic reconnection (or should that be electric reconnection then ???). I asked that before and got a nonsense answer. But one can hope.

michael2 should get something together.
You, however, have refused to provide "the E orientation of magnetic reconnection". That was your claim. Instead of railing at me for having nothing to say about an irrelevant paper, you should meet tusenfem's challenge and support your claim.

and other modern cosmologists, and never even bothered to check whether Steven Weinberg had won a Nobel Prize?

OMG! I was busy working, so I simply asked! Holy cow. Next time I'll just fire up a search engine and save myself the personal attack BS.
That would be appreciated. Checking basic facts before you post is better than expressing outrage over the criticism you deserve for posting nonsense.

That's another concrete illustration of your ignorance and hypocrisy.

Well ignorance perhaps, but hypocrisy no. You seem to have completely ignored the fact that I accept the B oriented approach, I simply think you folks gave it a HORRIFIC name. You short circuit a couple of current carrying plasma filaments through a double layer and claim "magnetic reconnection did it". Alfven's method of double layer events is just as valid as yours orientation. That's the part you folks refuse to accept. Since I have already moved to a 'middle position", the only one of us that could possibly be called a hypocrite is you, not me. You refuse to accept Alfven's circuit explanations for the very same flare and magnetospheric events where you apply 'magnetic reconnection' theory, whereas I simply see them as flip sides of the same coin, just a B vs. E orientation. I simply think that you gave an *ELECTRICALLY ACTIVE* process a very *STUPID* title.

You're the one who won't even be bothered to read or comment on the circuit oriented material, yet you refuse to accept Alfven's circuit oriented approach to these very same events in space! Don't even *THINK* about lecturing me about hypocrisy until you've either read and commented on the flaw you found in Alfven's approach, or you accept his approach as being equally valid to any B oriented approach to DISCHARGE processes in plasma.
Wow.
  • You accept the "B oriented approach", but have some kind of semantic objection to its name.
  • You favor an "E oriented approach", but ignore all requests to explain it. (See tusenfem's post above.)
  • You misrepresent what everyone is saying about magnetic reconnection, while accusing us of attacking straw men.
  • You pretend to expertise in circuit theory, after demonstrating profound inability to draw or even to read a circuit.
  • You regard your interpretation of Alfvén's keynote remarks as definitive, even after qualified people have told you many times that Alfvén was attacking misuses of an MHD approximation he himself had popularized.
  • You repeat your hypocritical demand that we pay more attention to your holy texts than you pay to modern science.
Then you end by railing about our hypocrisy.
 
The only thing I find "frustrating" about your position is your refusal to "meet me in the middle" and accept that the circuit orientation is equally viable, equally well suited to describe events in plasma, and equally capable of being applied to all these same topics.
tusenfem stated the circuit theory is equally viable to MHD. It is equally capable of being applied to all these same topics.
It is not (and this is where you go wrong) "equally well suited to describe events in plasma".

There is no "meeting in the middle". Science does change just because of a wish to be polite to people and accept their erroneous ideas.

Circuit theory can never describe the details of plasma, magnetic fields, electric fields, densities, Alfven waves etc.
MHD can describe details of plasma, magnetic fields, electric fields, densities, Alfven waves, etc.

Circuit theory is an evern greater approximation than the various approximations that are done for MHD.
 
LOL

how about you getting along with modern developments of numerical modeling? In ideal MHD (the Alfvén thingy) there can be no parallel electric fields because the plasma is infinitely conducting. However .... as no numerical code is perfect (rounding errors because of 8-16-32-64 bit accuracy of the numbers) there will be what is called numerical diffusion which is equivalent to the plasma having a finite resistivity.

Then modern day modelling uses MDH, resistive MHD, Hall MHD.
Or they use hybrid codes where the electrons are a fluid and the ions are particles.
Or they use PIC (particle in cell) codes.
All of them can be used with adaptive grids, to get better resolution in the interesting regions.

Catch up with the times, michaelsuede, we are living in 2011 not in the 1980s.

None of the MHD models are capable of describing a double layer condition.

It can not be done using a fluid theory.

Adding in ad hoc resistivity in order to make your model meet with observation does not explain why the plasma should react in a manner similar to a double layer and exhibit resistivity.

This is called reification of a model.

If your models actually did explain all observations of "reconnection," then there would be no unresolved reconnection problems. Your models would predict and explain what is occurring.

You will never be able to predict and explain all "reconnection" events using fluid models.

Ever.

Which I assume is the entire point of using fluid models.

PIC can describe it accurately, but of course the results from the PICs are twisted around on themselves since the entire point of using PICs is to help derive a fluid model. Of the PICs that do use realistic conditions, they all ultimately portray the formation of double layers. Why this continues to be ignored is beyond me.
 
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michaelsuede: Why are no DLs detected in MR experiments until after reconnection

None of the MHD models are capable of describing a double layer condition.
None of the MHD models are supposed to be capable of describing a double layer condition.
You do not have to keep repeating the obvious.

So what?
Double layers are are an effect of magnetic reconnection, not a cause.

You are still ignoring Lessons from Labatory Experiments on Reconnection, R.L. Stenzel, W. Gekelman and J. M. Urrutia 1986
which clearly shows (read the abstract, see Fig 9) that current disruption (and thus DLs) happens afer the magnetic reconnection.

michaelsuede,
Why are no DLs detected in MR experiments until after reconnection?

Or to put it another way: Where are your citations to the formation of DLs in magnetic reconnection experiments before or at the reconnection event?
 
Alfven's Faulty Boundary Conditions

I should never have attacked Tim like that to start with, so I technically wronged him twice, and I frankly think I got what I deserved.


Fair enough. So we can agree that (a) I have indeed read Alfven's Cosmic Plasma and that (b) I did not say that the circuit paradigm was false or invalid or the functional equivalent thereof. So, moving right along ...

Like I said: Alfven established faulty boundary conditions because he was guided by a faulty paradigm, namely the circuit paradigm for describing the physics of plasmas.
Demonstrate that specific claim Tim.


I already did, on 5 April 2011 ...

... Just look at this sentence from Alfven that you regurgitate constantly: "What we have found means that we can describe plasma phenomena inside a finite volume only if no electric current crosses the surface". That sentence cannot possibly be correct as stated and is sheer nonsense. How are charged particles moving around in some volume supposed to "know" or "care" if there is an electric current flowing across some imaginary surface around this volume? How could the current possibly make it impossible to know what the plasma is doing inside the volume? ...

Like I said: Alfven established faulty boundary conditions because he was guided by a faulty paradigm, namely the circuit paradigm for describing the physics of plasmas. You and michaelsuede have both fallen into the trap of believing that the circuit paradigm actually describes the physics of plasmas. In fact it does not and indeed cannot describe the actual physics of plasmas because the circuit paradigm does not involve particles & fields. The circuit paradigm is primarily useful as a "bookkeeping" exercise, heuristically describing the flow of energy in a plasma, without regard for the physics involved. Only at the level of particles & fields can we really understand plasma physics. The circuit paradigm is the functional equivalent of the elementary school approach to plasma physics.


And on 4 February 2010, quoted again on 5 April 2011

Mozina never responded. Let us be clear on something: it is the physics that Mozina does not understand at any level. It is the physics that Mozina constantly gets wrong. We can never teach Mozina physics because he is immune to learning, already quite convinced that his ignorance is in fact knowledge, he is beyond hope. But that need not apply to others reading this thread. So let me do something I said I would not do, since Mozina will never answer the questions above. Let me explore what Hannes Alfven really says about magnetic reconnection (not surprisingly, Alfven does not say what Mozina claims he says).

The following passages are transcribed from the book Cosmic Plasma by Hannes Alfven; D. Reidel Publishing Co., 1981. All of the emphasis (italics) are Alfven's from the original text, none are mine. First, Alfven addresses boundary conditions.


Page 28, section II.5.1 - Boundary Conditions
"Consider a volume V of space limited by a surface S. The properties of the plasma inside of S depend on the boundary conditions. Thus by changing the current through S, we can change the behavior of the plasma. As was seen in the preceding paragraph, the properties of the plasma depend on the whole circuit in which the current flows. This means that we can describe the plasma inside of S by parameters inside S only if i = 0 everywhere on S.
Hence, even if we know all plasma parameters (like density, temperature and magnetization) at every point inside S, we can describe the plasma properties theoretically only if there is no electric current crossing the surface. Therefore, the boundary problems have to be analysed very carefully."
​
This is a necessary consequence of Alfven's adoption of the circuit formalism for describing the physics of plasmas. He takes the position that it is not possible to properly describe the physics of plasmas by local variables alone, but that one must include the entire circuit, hence is requirement that no electric current can flow into or out of a given volume, if you want to use only local parameters to describe the plasma.

This leads into Alfven's specific statement about magnetic reconnection ...


Page 29, section II.5.3, - 'Magnetic Merging' Theories
"What we have found means that we can describe plasma phenomena inside a finite volume only if no electric current crosses the surface. In the terminology of the magnetic field description, this means that we can describe plasma phenomena inside a finite volume only if the perpendicular component of the curl is zero at every point of the surface."
"All theories of 'magnetic merging' (or 'field line reconnection') which do not satisfy this criterion are misleading or erroneous, and deserve no attention. This does not mean that all papers in which 'magnetic merging' is used are of no interest, because there exist some good papers (e.g., Hill, 1975) in which the term is merely a synonym for "current sheet acceleration".
​

These two paragraphs reveal a serious weakness in Alfven's method, in the context of modern plasma physics, and reveal precisely why Alfven was in fact wrong to reject magnetic reconnection. His statement above was correct, and as far as I know remains correct to this day. He was right to reject magnetic reconnection in the context of the boundary conditions he laid out, but carefully note what Alfven actually says, in Alfven's own words: "All theories of 'magnetic merging' (or 'field line reconnection') which do not satisfy this criterion are misleading or erroneous, and deserve no attention." Alfven did not categorically reject the idea of magnetic reconnection, he only rejected it in cases where his boundary conditions apply. The problem, of course, is that his boundary conditions can be quite unrealistic and do not apply in most cases to real plasma in space, and this is where Alfven fails: Alfven's boundary condition requirements do not necessarily reflect the physical state of real plasmas, either in space, or in the laboratory.

Magnetic reconnection requires oppositely directed magnetic fields. Parallel magnetic fields cannot reconnect. Alfven's boundary conditions establish only parallel magnetic fields and therefore rule out at once all cases where one would expect magnetic reconnection to occur. Hence, Alfven is right to claim that magnetic reconnection will not occur when his boundary conditions are satisfied. But he was wrong to assume that his boundary conditions were physically realistic when applied to real space & astrophysical plasma. He was wrong to require all plasmas to satisfy boundary conditions which automatically rule out magnetic reconnection.

Alfven established faulty boundary conditions because he was guided by a faulty paradigm, namely the circuit paradigm for describing the physics of plasmas. That paradigm has serious limitations. It is still used by plasma physicists today, but has limited application. Alfven's reliance on this circuit formalism may have been good enough to establish the basics of plasma physics and the basics of ideal MHD, but was not good enough to handle the advances that have given us modern plasma physics. None of the modern plasma physics text books I have in my library apply the circuit analogy to plasma physics the way Alfven did. It simply does not apply to realistic space plasma physics in most cases, and we can in fact deal with all cases today using the local parameters of the plasma without appealing to Alfven's limiting boundary conditions.

Now, let me add the caveat that I am not a specialist in plasma physics (although I actually have coauthored one paper in space plasma physics: Bolton, et al., 1989). But I do have a master's degree in physics, I can read plasma physics text books, and most importantly of all, I know when to ask for help. So I acknowledge hints from tusenfem on interpreting Alfven in this case. I don't think I am making any big mistakes here, but feel free to correct any errors (even the little ones).

Finally, once again, I direct the interested reader to the book Magnetic Reconnection: MHD Theory and Application; Priest & Forbes, Cambridge University Press, 2000. Section 4.2 describes the Sweet-Parker mechanism, and section 4.3 describes the faster Petschek mechanism, both of which are reconnection mechanisms that take place in plasma environments which are not allowed to exist under Alfven's restrictive boundary conditions.


These arguments constitute a proper & detailed demonstration of that specific claim. Deal with them, or don't, but if you don't, then there is nothing more to say on this point.


Did Onel and Mann also make a mistake? If so, where is the mistake found in their paper?

http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813


As for the Onel & Mann paper (Generation of Large Scale Electric Fields in Coronal Flare Circuits, Central European Astrophysical Bulletin 33: 141-154, 2009), I will address it specifically in a later post. However, be aware of the point I am making here as regards Alfven: "Alfven established faulty boundary conditions because he was guided by a faulty paradigm, ... ". Nowhere in the Onel & Mann paper will you find any mention of Alfven's boundary conditions. Therefore the Onel & Mann paper is not relevant specifically to my claim that Alfven's boundary conditions are faulty.
 
FYI, I've never really had any issue with your comments, or your position to be quite honest. The only thing I find "frustrating" about your position is your refusal to "meet me in the middle" and accept that the circuit orientation is equally viable, equally well suited to describe events in plasma, and equally capable of being applied to all these same topics. Instead of meeting me in the middle, you're dragging your feet, kicking and screaming and ignoring the logic entirely. Maxwell's equations are all about the relationship between E and B and they are interchangeable in math formulas.

Why should I meet you i the middle, when you keep on continuing making false claims, repeating them all the time, even after you have been explained umpteen times why it is wrong?

For the last time:
Circuit theory is good to get the large scale properties of a plasma physical system, where all micro physics is hidden under the carpet that is called average large scale quantities such as there are resistivity, battery voltage, total induction, ..... described in the circuit by R, V, L .....

One can calculate what the total energy is in such a circuit, and that is completely equivalent with calculating the energy through integrating over all plasma and field energies (with the note: naturally only when you have estimated R, L etc correctly). That is it, yes, you can put in some more circuit units and then try to model some global "dynamics" which I think happens in the Onel & Mann papers.

HOWEVER, although in a lot of descriptions the magnetic field lines are called the "electric wires of the circuit" this only holds in some cases, e.g. it completely does not hold for the current sheet between two oppositely directed magnetic fields obviously. THEREFORE, a circuit cannot describe the full process of reconnection, because it cannot describe the change in topology of the magnetic field, it can describe, maybe, that currents will go from one circuit to another in some coupled system (which we once tried to develop, I vaguely remember .....)

Thus there is no middle ground, because for there to be a middle ground you need to know and understand the basics. I think that this Cowling paper gives an introduction of circuit theory. Unfortunately, it is not available online, so I cannot check here at the meeting.

And when you get back, please tell us what you've learned. I really would be curious to know.

Unfortunately, the talk from an current point of view was very disappointing. Akasofu made some good comments that looking at B or looking at j lines basically throws a filter over the data such that you eiter see one or the other. However, when applying it to some examples (mainly on the Sun) it was clear that he had not kept up with modern developments, but excused himself by saying "I am no solar physicist". Apparently, he has some ideas on the currents, but he did not present them. Only in the case of the Boström current system in the Earth's magnetotail he showed something that may indeed show that one needs to look a currents (which is being done, actually). In the end, it was a nice general talk, but could have been much better, but he did give some good advice to young scientists to try and find the snoopy pieces in the garfield puzzle.
 
Onel & Mann, Circuits, and Real Plasma Physics

As for the Onel & Mann paper (Generation of Large Scale Electric Fields in Coronal Flare Circuits, Central European Astrophysical Bulletin 33: 141-154, 2009), I will address it specifically in a later post.


The Onel & Mann paper constructs a physical model of a flare, and then represents the physical model with a schematic electric circuit. It is important to note that it is not just a "circuit model", but rather a physical model (see figure 2) that is the represented by a circuit schematic (see figure 3). The circuit schematic is then analyzed in the normal fashion for an electric circuit and the results of that analysis are then correlated with the physical model and the observed behavior of a particular active region on the Sun. The authors determine that motions in the photosphere plasma are able to generate an electric field in the coronal loop which is aligned parallel to the magnetic field of the loop. That electric field is responsible for accelerating electrons in the loop and is the root cause of the observed flare. That's a summary of the paper; if you want to know more, you can read the original, which can be downloaded as PDF via the link provided above.

First, let me point out what the Onel & Mann paper is not.

As I quoted myself in the previous post: "Alfven established faulty boundary conditions because he was guided by a faulty paradigm, ... ". Nowhere in the Onel & Mann paper will you find any mention of Alfven's boundary conditions. Therefore the Onel & Mann paper is not relevant specifically to my claim that Alfven's boundary conditions are faulty.

Also consider the thread title, "Problems with Magnetic Reconnection". The primary topic of this magnetic reconnection. michaelsuede claims, and Mozina has long claimed, that magnetic reconnection does not & cannot happen. Nowhere in the Onel & Mann paper do we find any claim that magnetic reconnection cannot happen. We do find this: "The basic idea of this mechanism is to generate the flare energy by photospheric plasma motion in active regions. This is in contradiction to the reconnection model in which the magnetic field energy in the corona is taken for the flare." (arXiv preprint page 4). The authors clearly argue for an alternative to magnetic reconnection as an energy source for flares (or at least for the particular flare they are studying, though I am sure they mean this to be a more general claim). However, nowhere do the authors question the more fundamental validity of the magnetic reconnection process. So the paper is relevant to the role of magnetic reconnection in flares, but it is not relevant to the fundamental validity of magnetic reconnection.

Now let me repeat myself with slightly altered emphasis: "Alfven established faulty boundary conditions because he was guided by a faulty paradigm, ... ", that faulty paradigm being the circuit paradigm. Certainly "faulty" is an unfortunate choice of words, since it arguably puts me in the position of being self-contradictory, which fortunately for me went unnoticed by certain others ...

That the circuit paradigm is actually used is well known and hardly what we would call "news" (e.g., Khodachenko, 2009, Onel & Mann, 2009, Wheatland & Farvis, 2004; and see Liffman, 2007 which discusses electric circuits in young stellar objects).

The circuit APPROXIMATION is still used in plasma physics and plasma astrophysics today. The circuit description has never been abandoned. But it cannot deal with "microphysical" processes and so is of necessarily limited value. You seem to think that if you can just show somebody successfully using a circuit model, then you have struck some kind of blow against the mainstream. But in fact, all you are doing is reinforcing the standard model, which explicitly does use (and explicitly always has used) the circuit APPROXIMATION to describe space & astrophysical & geophysical plasma.

So I have to say I just don't get the point you are trying to make? Are you arguing that the circuit APPROXIMATION is correct? OK, nobody says it isn't, we just put intelligent limits on it (that's what the word APPROXIMATION means, you know). Are you trying to argue that the circuit APPROXIMATION is the one and only way to understand solar & astrophysical plasmas? If so, then you are simply wrong. But you might want to explicitly say what it is you are trying to prove. You know, something beyond the scope of the one-liner.


Certainly the circuit paradigm is not wrong or faulty in any general sense. However, it is an approximation of limited use. Better for me to say that Alfven was misled by an oversimplified paradigm, rather than a faulty one. So I will correct myself to that extent.

Did Onel and Mann also make a mistake?


Not that I can see. But the only real point that one can take home from this is that the circuit paradigm is not wrong in the general sense. One can also argue, assuming that Onel & Mann make a valid point, that not all flare electrons are accelerated by magnetic reconnection. But then nobody ever made that claim that I am aware of anyway. The Onel & Mann paper says nothing at all about Alfven's boundary conditions, and I stand by my claim that they are faulty. Furthermore, the Onel & Mann paper says nothing at all about the fundamental validity of magnetic reconnection, and I stand by my claim that it is a valid physical process easily distinguished from induction, "circuit reconnection", or the Onel & Mann mechanism of a straight forward electric field.

But I will use a passage from Onel & Mann, along with my own earlier comments, to argue that "circuit reconnection", as I understand it to be meant, is not possible as an alternate explanation for the phenomena of magnetic reconnection.

I said ...

Magnetic reconnection only happens when the electric currents are flowing in opposite directions. That means, in your "circuit reconnection" fantasy, the currents bash into each other head on. Head on. So why don't you describe the physics for us, how these two currents manage to merge into another current, gaining energy despite colliding head on. And if that's not enough, how about conservation of energy? How do you explain the final current carrying more energy than the sum of the energies of the input currents? Where does all that extra energy come from (ignoring for a moment the head on collision of the currents)?


Onel & Mann say ... "Electrons gain energy only by electric field acceleration" (arXiv preprint page 10) ... "An electron traveling through an electron-proton plasma experiences Coulomb collisions, which always make the electron lose energy." .... (arXiv preprint page 11).

The "reconnection" of currents, especially currents flowing in opposite directions, will invariably cause the particles to lose energy, whereas magnetic reconnection invariably causes the particles to gain energy. Since the two processes work in the opposite sense, it hardly makes sense to claim that they are equivalent. Furthermore, the "reconnection" of currents does not generate a new electric field. So even if the currents ran parallel instead of anti-parallel, there would still be no physical mechanism whereby the particles (electrons) would gain rather than lose energy. And finally, as I have noted before, if one only considers the "reconnection" of particle streams, one must face the serious issue of conservation of energy, since the newly accelerated particles will carry far more kinetic energy than did their parent particle streams. All of this combines to make "current reconnection" or "circuit reconnection" or "particle reconnection" unworthy of reasonable consideration as a functionally equivalent process to magnetic reconnection.

Onel and Mann explained flares with circuit theory too *WITHOUT* evoking new energy release mechanisms. By a simple Occum's razor argument your precious exotic energy release theory bites the dust.


This is an argument that I also reject, for two primary reasons. First, it is by no means obvious that the Onel & Mann paper is easily extended to include all flare events with all physical environments. It is, after all, only one paper, and the number of papers that use the same kind of circuit paradigm is quite limited, compared to the massive literature on flares & magnetic reconnection. But perhaps even more important is that "exotic energy release theory" is not at all correct. There is nothing "exotic" about magnetic reconnection theory, which is in fact highly un-exotic and a necessary consequence of Maxwell's equations. The truth of the matter is that the Onel & Mann model is rather more exotic than the magnetic reconnection model, because well behaved fields as proposed by Onel & Mann are certainly not the rule on the Sun, where a great deal more variability is to be expected. Furthermore, there are just as many cases where the observed behavior of a flare or CME event implies a magnetic reconnection mechanism rather than an Onel & Mann style electric field (e.g., Budget of energetic electrons during solar flares in the framework of magnetic reconnection, Mann & Warmuth, Astronomy & Astrophysics 528: A104, April 2011; that's the same Mann as in Onel & Mann, by the way; Reconnection Outflows and Current Sheet Observed with Hinode/XRT in the 2008 April 9 "Cartwheel CME" Flare, Savage, et al., Astrophysical Journal 722(1) 329-342, October 2010; Observations of the Magnetic Reconnection Signature of an M2 Flare on 2000 March 23, Leping & Zhang, Astrophysical Journal 703(1): 877-882, September 2009).

There is no good reason to declare that the Onel & Mann paper rules out magnetic reconnection in flares & CME events.

And finally, regarding the circuit paradigm in general ...

The only thing I find "frustrating" about your position is your refusal to "meet me in the middle" and accept that the circuit orientation is equally viable, equally well suited to describe events in plasma, and equally capable of being applied to all these same topics.
Why should I meet you in the middle, when you keep on continuing making false claims, repeating them all the time, even after you have been explained umpteen times why it is wrong?

For the last time:
Circuit theory is good to get the large scale properties of a plasma physical system, where all micro physics is hidden under the carpet that is called average large scale quantities such as there are resistivity, battery voltage, total induction, ..... described in the circuit by R, V, L ..... Thus there is no middle ground, ...


I agree with tusenfem, there is no "middle ground", and it is not true that the circuit orientation is "equally viable" or "equally well suited". As I said myself in a quote above, the circuit paradigm in an approximation which, as tusenfem correctly points out, hides all of the real physics that's going on in the plasma, behind a wall of averages & approximations. That's why Alfven failed to establish valid boundary conditions in the first place, because he used a paradigm that hides the real physics. He has to rule out local variables because his paradigm can't see them, but in the end appealing to those local variables is the one and only way to understand the real physics of real plasmas.
 
On the topic of the circuit "paradigm": it reminds me of the idea of hydraulic equivalent circuit. Given a plumbing system consisting of sealed pipes and open reservoirs (excluding certain common elements like rubber bladders) you can represent the pressure P as relating to moving masses M of water:

P = dM/dt*R + d^2M/dt^2*L + M*C

The pipes have a resistance, such that pressure drop is approximately proportional to flow rate dM/dt---just like resistance. Water has inertia, so changing a flow rate requires a force proportional to d^2M/dt^2---just like inductance Reservoirs have more inlet pressure depending on how charged-up they are, so it's proportional to M---just like capacitance. So if I give you a plumbing system, you can go through it (or measure it) and ... well, sure you can write down a circuit model---you go through the pipe diameters, lengths, roughnesses, etc., and calculate R; you go through the water mass and calculate L; etc. And that'll give good response functions for that plumbing system.

But it's not the whole story. Nobody would ever say that fluid dynamics engineers are "missing something" because they "ignore circuit orientation". First, they don't ignore it. Secondly, the circuit orientation is a way of *ignoring* the small-scale details. (A long wide pipe and a short narrow pipe may have the same R---so the circuit model thinks they're the same---but that doesn't mean they're the same if you care about mixing, or ability to flush solids, or behavior under water hammers.) Third, the circuit orientation is indeed an approximation. Oddly-shaped reservoirs have some other, non-capacitor-like pressure equation P = f(M). Open channel flow has non-resistor-like P = f(dM/dt). Some interesting phenomena, like the hydraulic jump of faucet flow into a nearly-empty sink, are simply beyond of the list of variables that the circuit model cares about.

So you use a circuit model when (a) you already know the microphysics (or the impulse response data) that allows you to figure out R, L, C, and (b) when you explicitly don't care that you're going to miss mixing, flushing, hydraulic jumps, etc..

Saying that the circuit model is better is not even wrong, it's a non-sequitur. The circuit model is what you end up with if you take whatever actual physics you know, then lump together terms with the same order derivatives. It's not supposed to be "better", it's supposed to be a simplification.
 
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On the topic of the circuit "paradigm": it reminds me of the idea of hydraulic equivalent circuit. Given a plumbing system consisting of sealed pipes and open reservoirs (excluding certain common elements like rubber bladders) you can represent the pressure P as relating to moving masses M of water:

P = dM/dt*R + d^2M/dt^2*L + M*C

The pipes have a resistance, such that pressure drop is approximately proportional to flow rate dM/dt---just like resistance. Water has inertia, so changing a flow rate requires a force proportional to d^2M/dt^2---just like inductance Reservoirs have more inlet pressure depending on how charged-up they are, so it's proportional to M---just like capacitance. So if I give you a plumbing system, you can go through it (or measure it) and ... well, sure you can write down a circuit model---you go through the pipe diameters, lengths, roughnesses, etc., and calculate R; you go through the water mass and calculate L; etc. And that'll give good response functions for that plumbing system.

But it's not the whole story. Nobody would ever say that fluid dynamics engineers are "missing something" because they "ignore circuit orientation". First, they don't ignore it. Secondly, the circuit orientation is a way of *ignoring* the small-scale details. (A long wide pipe and a short narrow pipe may have the same R---so the circuit model thinks they're the same---but that doesn't mean they're the same if you care about mixing, or ability to flush solids, or behavior under water hammers.) Third, the circuit orientation is indeed an approximation. Oddly-shaped reservoirs have some other, non-capacitor-like pressure equation P = f(M). Open channel flow has non-resistor-like P = f(dM/dt). Some interesting phenomena, like the hydraulic jump of faucet flow into a nearly-empty sink, are simply beyond of the list of variables that the circuit model cares about.

So you use a circuit model when (a) you already know the microphysics (or the impulse response data) that allows you to figure out R, L, C, and (b) when you explicitly don't care that you're going to miss mixing, flushing, hydraulic jumps, etc..

Saying that the circuit model is better is not even wrong, it's a non-sequitur. The circuit model is what you end up with if you take whatever actual physics you know, then lump together terms with the same order derivatives. It's not supposed to be "better", it's supposed to be a simplification.

Beautiful analogy, Ben! :)

Dave
 

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