Problems With Magnetic Reconnection

And so we learn that "magnetic lines" will "actually change their topology" in "exactly" the same way that the "motherboard" inside Michael Mozina's "computer" can "rewire" its "circuit diagrams" into a "new topological arrangement".
:eye-poppi

You have heard of transistors, right?

If that's true, then Michael Mozina should be able to give us one of his fabulous proofs by pretty picture: He should reproduce this alleged rewiring in his terrestrial laboratory computer and show us the "before" and "after" photographs of his motherboard.

Hmm. That's an interesting idea. We should in fact be able to see current flowing through different pins of the microprocessor and memory circuitry, and produce different "magnetic line configurations" as a result.
 
NO, there is an electric current flowing across the magnetic field lines, as demanded by Maxwell's equations. A current layer separating two oppositely directed magnetic fields. In the steady state there is NO electric field necessary to have this current.

Could you point me to a real life "experiment" in a lab, where the "line" did not have current running through it? All the ones I've seen so far have included two "current carrying" filaments that required a cathode and anode and current to sustain them.
 
And so we learn that "magnetic lines" will "actually change their topology" in "exactly" the same way that the "motherboard" inside Michael Mozina's "computer" can "rewire" its "circuit diagrams" into a "new topological arrangement".
:eye-poppi

You have heard of transistors, right?
Yes, and I have designed and built transistor circuits, but none of the transistors I know have ever decided to "rewire" their "circuit diagrams" into a "new topological arrangement".

Had the PN2222 spec sheet described that capability, I'm pretty sure I'd remember.

Could you point me to a real life "experiment" in a lab, where the "line" did not have current running through it? All the ones I've seen so far have included two "current carrying" filaments that required a cathode and anode and current to sustain them.
Sure. Run a moderately large direct current through a straight conducting rod. Unless you do something strange, there will be no electric field and the current will remain confined to the rod, with no current flowing in the direction of the magnetic field lines that circle the rod.

And yes, that setup was part of several experiments I performed in the lab when I took a freshman-level course in electromagnetism. It's one quarter of the setup for the simple experiment I've been suggesting that will demonstrate magnetic reconnection in a vacuum devoid of plasma.
 
Yes, and I have designed and built transistor circuits, but none of the transistors I know have ever decided to "rewire" their "circuit diagrams" into a "new topological arrangement".

Had the PN2222 spec sheet described that capability, I'm pretty sure I'd remember.

In terms of the flow of electrons/current, all we're doing is switching the flow of electrons to various circuit connections. There's nothing mystical about a switch.

Sure. Run a moderately large direct current through a straight conducting rod.

You just demonstrated my point. That experiment requires a "cathode" and an anode, charge separation, and a flow of electrons through a medium to sustain the magnetic field. Got an experiment involving "reconnection" that doesn't?
 
Could you point me to a real life "experiment" in a lab, where the "line" did not have current running through it? All the ones I've seen so far have included two "current carrying" filaments that required a cathode and anode and current to sustain them.

I think it is in the LAPD.
It is most certainly in all of Joachim Birn's paper.
It is measured in the Earth's magnetotail by numerous satellite missions.
It is measured at the nose of the magnetosphere.
It immediately follows from Maxwell's equations, whenever you have to magnetic fields at an angle to eachother a current appears which is perpendicular to the magnetic field curl(B) ~ J
etc. etc. etc.
 
I think it is in the LAPD.
It is most certainly in all of Joachim Birn's paper.
It is measured in the Earth's magnetotail by numerous satellite missions.
It is measured at the nose of the magnetosphere.
It immediately follows from Maxwell's equations, whenever you have to magnetic fields at an angle to eachother a current appears which is perpendicular to the magnetic field curl(B) ~ J
etc. etc. etc.

"It" being current flow along the "line"?
 
As I have shown there is a different definition of discharge for different authors. Dungey actually says it is just an strong increase of the current in the plasma (wow did we not already have this stupid discussion?)

A discharge is not a "single well defined process." Therefore, I decide not to talk about the D word, but rather talk about the real processes that are happening.

IMO this is like talking about a discharge in the Earth's atmosphere, and claiming you don't want to talk about the discharge process, just the 'real processes' that are happening. Your statement makes no sense IMO.

However, because that would mean that you would actually have to learn plasma physics, which you won't, you keep on insisting on your pet word D,

Peratt used the "pet word" first, which is frankly where I picked it up. Dungey of course used the term 60 years ago, as did Bruce, so Peratt certainly didn't invent the concept. Just because you don't want to discuss discharges in plasma does not mean they don't occur.

which would magically describe a large variety of plasma physical processes, without having to bother about the details.

I don't need to know "all the details" about why discharges emit gamma rays, they just do. It's "probably" related to a "plasma pinch' process, but the fact discharges emit gamma rays is useful information. Not coincidentally, we see gamma rays from the high energy "discharges" in solar flares too.

Therefore I ban the D word.

That sounds suspiciously like a trip down denial lane from where I sit. If it makes you uncomfortable, fine, but you can't 'ban' the concept from discussion or consideration. :)

So if they are splitting in smaller double layers, then the posited explosion by Alfvén will not happen.

You're right. It will create small offshoots in those instances instead of an explosive event. It depends on the exact conditions of the circuit interruption.

Then please work it out, show us how "a few circuits" and "a few double layers" do it.

It's already been done by Alfven in his double layer paper. What do you need me for? He wrote lots of time about treating magnetic ropes/coronal loops as 'current carrying' circuits. If two of the touch and a double layer forms between them, his double layer paper simply applies. What's the big deal?

Come on, put your money where you mouth is, show how it is done. You won't ofcourse, because you can't.

Um, even assuming that were true, if I can't do QM or GR, should we toss those theories away too?

Just linking to the Onel & Mann paper is not an answer to this direct question, for obvious reasons, which I have stated in another message.

It is a direct answer to your question, it simply treats the process as a form of circuit interruption just as Alfven did, and all they did is add circuit elements as required. You act like it's impossible to add the necessary circuit elements to get a granular enough look at the process, yet you utterly ignore the fact that all your MR "experiments" begin and end with 'charge separation' and "current flow'. Shut off the electricity and the party is over.

I am not stuck on the D word, you keep on bringing it up, without realising that Dungey has a different definition of discharge than the one you agreed upon with Tim from Peratt.

No, not really. Dungey's use of the term in relationship to solar flares and "reconnection" events fits perfectly congruently with Peratt's definition. It's a short, fast release of EM energy.

No, the solar wind is NOT a current, it consists of equal amounts of positive and negative charge (quasi neutral) moving at the same speed, and thus there is NO CURRENT, can you get your electrodynamics straight please?

Read Birkeland's experiments. He *predicted* both positive and negative particles would flow from the sun based on *EMPIRICAL EXPERIMENTATION* over 100 years ago. Got an example of magnetic reconnection that produces full sphere solar wind in a lab like Birkeland produced with a 'cathode sun'?

The only current that is there is the heliospheric current sheet, which is driven by the changing direction of the heliospheric magnetic field between the northern and the southern hemisphere, which is only slightly spiral.

Baloney. The whole thing is due to the charge separation between a cathode sun and a relatively positively charged "space". The surface of the sun simply interacts electromagnetically with the heliosphere just as the Earth interacts electromagnetically with it's magnetosphere, producing "spectacular" aurora around both poles.

Who the frak cares about a number? Alfvén stated a few times he did not believe in MRx, scientific experiments and space observations have proved him wrong.

No they haven't. All your MR events require "electricity" to make them work. Not one of them does squat in the absence of electricity in fact. That alone says volumes IMO and it mattered to Alfven as well. From the perspective of mathematics, an E oriented approach is certainly just as valid as any B oriented approach. The longer you try to hide from that reality, the longer you distance yourself from reality and "discharges" in general, but alas that was the point wasn't it?

I can easily round up some examples of completely "natural" electrical discharges in the Earth's atmosphere that released gamma rays. Got an experiment of an MRx event that emitted any gamma rays? We see gamma rays in some flare events along the footprints of the coronal loops. You're welcome to deny discharges might be responsible for those gamma rays, but I can show a direct cause/effect link between gamma rays and ordinary, common, and *natural* electrical discharges. The Z-machine shows that discharges can generate million degree temps and plenty of x-rays. That's tons more than you can do with "magnetic reconnection" in terms of real cause effect demonstrations.
 
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You want to quote mine Peratt's definition and use just "An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy", ignoring the fact that his examples are aurora and lightning (electrical discharges in air!).

It's simply an example of a sudden release of stored EM energy! Man, I've seen people twist reality like a pretzel in my day, but you take the cake on this particular issue RC. He provided a definition of an electrical discharge and then cited a very common, ordinary example of of an electrical discharge! Hoy.

The idiocy of this is that magnetic reconnection then fits that definition!

Please try to keep up. I mentioned that fact *months* ago.

Then there is the idoicy of continuously demanding that people read an outdated textbook. I have read more modern plasma physics textbooks. I do not need to read an outdated one.

Your favorite textbooks all teach of a form of "pseudoscience" where the magnetic cart is standing in front of the electric horse. We can tell this is true because every single experiment on the topic of MR theory begins with "current' and the moment the 'current' is turned off, the process ends. It's current reconnection, or 'circuit reconnection' but not a single magnetic line disconnected from or reconnected to any other magnetic line. The change in topology is directly related to the change in the direction of the flow of current.
 
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Can you explain explicitly what you mean by this term?

Sure. Alfven consistently treated coronal loops/magnetic ropes as "circuits", which are completed somewhere under the surface of the photosphere. The "charge separation" of the spinning plasma in the photosphere drove the process. Any form of "circuit interruption" cased a flare. Mann and Onel took the circuit analogy a bit further and tied it back to satellite observations in terms of the release of flare energy. Any sort of "short circuit' between two or more coronal loops would simply be a form of 'circuit rewiring, or "circuit reconnection". Alfven describes the process in terms of energy transfers inside of a double layer.

But you haven't provided any quantitative evidence to support your claim. As far as I can make out you're still effectively just saying "Alfven says it is so therefore it must be".

No. That was the whole point of me citing other authors in other threads, including the work by Mann and Onel. They quantitatively supported their use of circuits, and they tied it directly back to real life satellite observations. Alfven was not the only individual to use or published a "circuit" oriented approach to explain solar flare events.

That's not exactly peer reviewed lit.

There is plenty of it out there to read for yourself. They were "surprised" by the "collapse" because according to them, the magnetic cart does the work. It should "stay put' or simply 'move', but certainly not "collapse". In a circuit oriented approach all we would have to do is slow down and eventually stop the flow of current through the loop and it's going to dissipate and/or come crashing back to the surface due to gravity.

There's quantitative predictions of this?

Great question.

In what sense is it a ""new kind" of energy exchange"?

The direct collision and exchange of particle kinetic energy is accounted for by Alfven in his double layer paper. The energy transfer from the magnetic field into particle kinetic energy is also accounted for as "induction" in Alfven's papers. Why do I need "magnetic reconnection" again? What is unique about it that cannot already be explained the way Alfven already explained it, *WITHOUT* any "new" types of kinetic energy exchanges?

And Alfven's approach does quantitatively better than modern approaches?

No, of course not. Mann and Onel blew him away in terms of pure quantitative presentation, and application to real observation. Time and improvements in technology made that possible.
 
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MM: Where are your citations for the theory of current reconnection

It's simply an example of a sudden release of stored EM energy! Man, I've seen people twist reality like a pretzel in my day, but you take the cake on this particular issue RC. He provided a definition of an electrical discharge and then cited a very common, ordinary example of of an electrical discharge! Hoy.
That is correct, but that is not what lightning is. It is a a sudden release of stored EM energy caused by the breakdown of a dielectric medium. No dielectric medium = no electrical discharge.
And you are still quote mining (lying about) Peratt. His defintion
  • includes the breadkwon.
  • lists lightning as an example.
Do you know the difference between a title and a definition
First asked 11 January 2011 (you have shown no ability to understand the difference for 4 months now :eye-poppi!)

MM: Why does the title of Anthony Peratt's book appear in the section 1.5 title?
Shouldn't the title be "Electrical discharges in Plasma"?

Why does Peratt's page talk about aurora and lightning which happen in air not plasma?
Where are Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges within plasma?
First asked 7 December 2010

Your favorite textbooks all teach of a form of "pseudoscience" where the magnetic cart is standing in front of the electric horse.
How idiotic: plasma physics textbooks all teach plasma physics :jaw-dropp.
Your obsession with the opinion of one person does not change the physics.

We can tell this is true because every single experiment on the topic of MR theory begins with "current' and the moment the 'current' is turned off, the process ends. It's current reconnection, or 'circuit reconnection' but not a single magnetic line disconnected from or reconnected to any other magnetic line. The change in topology is directly related to the change in the direction of the flow of current.
Even more delusions and ignorance from you, MM.
The currents in magnetic reconnection experiments creates the plasma and the magnetic field configuration.
There are magnetic reconnection experiments with no curents just lasers as has already been pointed out to you.

As for you fantasy of 'circuit reconnection': that is dumb:
  • You give no citations to the theory of 'circuit reconnection'.
    Alfven's circuit models are not models of 'circuits' reconnecting.
  • Current reconnection is especially dumb since no energy is released when currents reconnect.
 
"It" being current flow along the "line"?

No, a current perpendicular to the field when oppositely directed magnetic fields get close.
I don't know why I bother trying to explain something when you obviously don't read, as the defintion of "it" was pretty clear.
 
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IMO this is like talking about a discharge ...

I don't need to know "all the details" about why discharges emit gamma rays, they just do. It's "probably" related to a "plasma pinch' process, but the fact discharges emit gamma rays is useful information. Not coincidentally, we see gamma rays from the high energy "discharges" in solar flares too.

Discharges have been discussed, point, final, over.
You only come back to this topic again and again because you have nothing to offer.

That sounds suspiciously like a trip down denial lane from where I sit.

whaddevvah! all these threads of yours are memory lane, nothing new, been there done that, you ignore what you don't like, you forget that things have been discussed blah blah blah

You're right. It will create small offshoots in those instances instead of an explosive event. It depends on the exact conditions of the circuit interruption.

NO, the paper I linked to showed that a frakkingmongous DL will not be created (using actual observations of the sun) so there will never ever be an interruption of the current. Look up the paper I have quoted twice already.

It's already been done by Alfven in his double layer paper. What do you need me for? He wrote lots of time about treating magnetic ropes/coronal loops as 'current carrying' circuits. If two of the touch and a double layer forms between them, his double layer paper simply applies. What's the big deal?

No, it has not, and you will have to some work for yourself, go through a real paper, make some intelligent comments on the how and what (if you are even capable of that).
A double layer does not get created by the process you claim, if I am wrong, show me in complete detail.

Um, even assuming that were true, if I can't do QM or GR, should we toss those theories away too?

who cares about QM or GR, YOU want to show that MRx is wrong, then YOU should know your way around in plasma physics, which you don't.

It is a direct answer to your question, it simply treats the process as a form of circuit interruption just as Alfven did, and all they did is add circuit elements as required. You act like it's impossible to add the necessary circuit elements to get a granular enough look at the process, yet you utterly ignore the fact that all your MR "experiments" begin and end with 'charge separation' and "current flow'. Shut off the electricity and the party is over.

That is not even in the Onel and Mann paper, HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ THAT PAPER OR ONLY LOOKED AT THE PRETTY PICTURES AND THE ABSTRACT?

Read Birkeland's experiments.

don't come to me with "read Birkeland". i have actually made a whole thread dealing with Birkeland's scientific work, which you conveniently ignored. I wonder why. You don't know jack about Birkeland.

Baloney. The whole thing is due to the charge separation between a cathode sun and a relatively positively charged "space".

Another example that you don't know jack about plasma physics.

No they haven't. All your MR events require "electricity" to make them work. Not one of them does squat in the absence of electricity in fact. That alone says volumes IMO and it mattered to Alfven as well. From the perspective of mathematics, an E oriented approach is certainly just as valid as any B oriented approach. The longer you try to hide from that reality, the longer you distance yourself from reality and "discharges" in general, but alas that was the point wasn't it?

what is "electricity"? that is not even a valid term in plasma physics.

I can easily round up some examples of completely "natural" electrical discharges in the Earth's atmosphere that released gamma rays. Got an experiment of an MRx event that emitted any gamma rays? We see gamma rays in some flare events along the footprints of the coronal loops. You're welcome to deny discharges might be responsible for those gamma rays, but I can show a direct cause/effect link between gamma rays and ordinary, common, and *natural* electrical discharges. The Z-machine shows that discharges can generate million degree temps and plenty of x-rays. That's tons more than you can do with "magnetic reconnection" in terms of real cause effect demonstrations.

Oh dear, i am going to watch the eurovision song contest semi final result, you really don't understand a thing about plasma physics, which is okay, it takes about 5 years at university to learn it.
 
Read Birkeland's experiments. He *predicted* both positive and negative particles would flow from the sun based on *EMPIRICAL EXPERIMENTATION* over 100 years ago. Got an example of magnetic reconnection that produces full sphere solar wind in a lab like Birkeland produced with a 'cathode sun'?


Of course that argument is a complete fabrication, a flat out lie. Everyone here knows it. Everyone. Kristian Birkeland did not produce "full sphere solar wind in a lab [...] with a 'cathode sun'." That is absolutely, completely, ludicrously, and demonstrably false. Again, that argument is a lie.
 
Yes, and I have designed and built transistor circuits, but none of the transistors I know have ever decided to "rewire" their "circuit diagrams" into a "new topological arrangement".

Had the PN2222 spec sheet described that capability, I'm pretty sure I'd remember.

In terms of the flow of electrons/current, all we're doing is switching the flow of electrons to various circuit connections. There's nothing mystical about a switch.
Contrary to your previous posts, current switching in saturated transistor logic does not change the circuit diagram or the circuit topology. If it did, the change in current would not be seen by the part of the circuit to which that signal is being sent.

Sure. Run a moderately large direct current through a straight conducting rod.

You just demonstrated my point. That experiment requires a "cathode" and an anode, charge separation, and a flow of electrons through a medium to sustain the magnetic field. Got an experiment involving "reconnection" that doesn't?
No, what you have just demonstrated is that your position requires you to pretend that current within the conducting rod is equivalent to current running along the magnetic field lines.

My post, like tusenfem's, was pretty clear:
W.D.Clinger said:
Unless you do something strange, there will be no electric field and the current will remain confined to the rod, with no current flowing in the direction of the magnetic field lines that circle the rod.
Truncating my remark so you can pretend it demonstrated your point isn't likely to fool anyone but you.
 
No, a current perpendicular to the field when oppositely directed magnetic fields get close.

Why then do all the experiments with MR in a lab begin (and end) with charge separation, current flow, and ordinary plasma filaments? Why don't the currents flow *ONLY* where you claim they flow, and only in the direction you claim?
 
Discharges have been discussed, point, final, over.
You only come back to this topic again and again because you have nothing to offer.

You guys have reality standing on it's head again. Empirically speaking *discharges* have everything to offer, and MR theory has got zip to offer. Let's start a list:

Discharges have been known to cause or be directly responsible for:

Highly ionized states of iron (as far back as the 70's).
X-rays
Gamma rays
Million degree plasmas

That's four key and very specific observations that are directly associated with flare events that are also known to be directly and empirically associated with with discharges here on Earth.

Empirically speaking you've got exactly *NOTHING* to offer in terms of associating MR theory with any of the four empirically observed things on that list! You have reality standing on it's head *AGAIN*!

I need a cup of coffee. I can only take pure, unadulterated denial a few bites and only a few topics at a time. This place is like the twilight zone of constant denial on every topic under the sun...literally.
 
Of course that argument is a complete fabrication, a flat out lie.

Speaking of pure, unadulterated denial.....

I suppose I will now have to add my sig line (Birkeland's direct quote) to the list of empirical and historical facts that your are in pure denial of. Check. You do realize that list is getting to be rather lengthy, right?
 
You guys have reality standing on it's head again. Empirically speaking *discharges* have everything to offer, and MR theory has got zip to offer. Let's start a list:

Discharges have been known to cause or be directly responsible for:

Highly ionized states of iron (as far back as the 70's).
X-rays
Gamma rays
Million degree plasmas

That's four key and very specific observations that are directly associated with flare events that are also known to be directly and empirically associated with with discharges here on Earth.


Discharges like lightning, for example?
 
That is correct, but .....

....what you insist on ignoring is that the "cause" is irrelevant! For months upon end I've been telling you and everyone that a flare (even if it's due to "reconnection") is an electrical discharge event just like Dungey, and just like Peratt. It's the "sudden release of stored EM energy" that is important, not the 'cause' or the change that releases the energy. Get it?
 
Reconnection.gif
 

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