Problems With Magnetic Reconnection

It shows nothing of the sort. It is a picture spammed repeatedly here without any accompanying quantitative data or description.

Birkeland quantified all of his work. Did you read his quantifications? It's clear from the quote that RC provided that the sphere is acting as a "cathode" (like a sun according to Birkeland) and it's clear it's a "discharge/current" driven process.

The denial-go-round and the pure disinformation is getting really old. Onel and Mann used Alfven's *CIRCUIT* orientation to describe coronal loops and flare events in exactly the same way Alfven did, as current carrying "circuits" of energy. If two or more "circuits/currents" reconnect, so what? It's not "magnetic reconnection", it's "current reconnection" or "circuit reconnection", but the magnetic field configurations are simply a function of the flow of current.
 
Tim pointed out that in all the magnetic reconnection experiments under consideration, none of them involve the flow of current first. All of them involve the flow of current second.

No, Tim *alleged* that to be true, and I just demonstrated from his own links that current came first. Care to get off the denial-go-round? Time for another strategy. Pure denial won't cut it. That very first experiment starts with currents and even notes in the abstract that the 'reconnection' is between 'currents'. The currents come first.
 
No, that is NOT what I said. RC was actually kind enough to quote Birkeland and his "discharge" statements related to the first B/W image. I have provided you with ample other authors relating discharges to solar flares and coronal loops to "circuits". They show exactly what I claim they show, "discharges" and current carrying "circuits" in plasmas.

I asked you for quantitative evidence that the two pictures are illustrating the same phenomenon. To date none has been forthcoming. Can I suggest you either:
a) provide quantitative evidence that the pictures are illustrating the same phenomenon
or
b) stop repeatedly posting those completely different pictures and accusing others of "pure denial". After all, it is perfectly reasonable to reject the hypothesis that phenomenon A is equivalent to phenomenon B when there is 0 quantitative evidence to suggest otherwise.
 
Birkeland quantified all of his work. Did you read his quantifications? It's clear from the quote that RC provided that the sphere is acting as a "cathode" (like a sun according to Birkeland) and it's clear it's a "discharge/current" driven process.
But if there is no quantitative link between the two pictures (Birkeland certainly never provided it) then there is no quantitative evidence that the pictures illustrate the same phenomenon. So, provide the quantitative evidence that the pictures illustrate the same phenomenon (use of Bayesian statistics is probably necessary here alongside the physical evidence) or stop accusing all and sundry of being in denial.
 
Birkeland quantified all of his work. Did you read his quantifications? It's clear from the quote that RC provided that the sphere is acting as a "cathode" (like a sun according to Birkeland) and it's clear it's a "discharge/current" driven process.


There is either a complete misunderstanding of Birkeland's work, or a dishonest bastardization of what he wrote, because nothing Birkeland wrote could be accepted as a valid criticism of our contemporary understanding of the physics of magnetic reconnection. And even if Birkeland suspected that CMEs, solar flares, and coronal loops were all electric all the time, he was wrong. There has been 100 years of good research since Birkeland died.

The denial-go-round and the pure disinformation is getting really old. Onel and Mann used Alfven's *CIRCUIT* orientation to describe coronal loops and flare events in exactly the same way Alfven did, as current carrying "circuits" of energy. If two or more "circuits/currents" reconnect, so what? It's not "magnetic reconnection", it's "current reconnection" or "circuit reconnection", but the magnetic field configurations are simply a function of the flow of current.


The continued use of the terminology of crackpots, cranks, conspiracy theorists, Creationists, and 911 Truthers is telling. If there was some legitimate, valid, objective, quantitative, scientific criticism of the contemporary understanding of magnetic reconnection, the arguments wouldn't have to be constructed from lies, childish insults, contempt for science and math, and repeated expressions of worship for dead guys whose work the critics clearly don't even understand.

And the continued use of undefined, quote-marked words and phrases show a complete lack of willingness to actually engage in an honest, scientific discussion. It's gibberish. If nobody knows what the quote-marked terms mean, they're worthless. And nobody does know what they mean because the critics refuse to define them even when asked. It constitutes a complete failure to even form an argument, rational or otherwise.

So the question would be, who among all the contemporary professional physicists and legitimate scientists in the world has been convinced by the atrocious, silly, dishonest, juvenile, and insulting arguments of the critics of magnetic reconnection? And if no real scientists have been convinced, why would any sane person continue to offer nothing other than the same dishonest, insulting, and convoluted spam?
 
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There is either a complete misunderstanding of Birkeland's work, or a dishonest bastardization of what he wrote, because nothing Birkeland wrote could be accepted as a valid criticism of our contemporary understanding of the physics of magnetic reconnection. And even if Birkeland suspected that CMEs, solar flares, and coronal loops were all electric all the time, he was wrong. There has been 100 years of good research since Birkeland died.

Ya, but all of that "research" demonstrates that electrical current comes first and 'reconnection' is between "currents/circuits", not simply 'magnetic lines'.

If the energy exchange was from the magnetic field into particle kinetic energy, you should be able to demonstrate that claim with a couple of refrigerator magnets and the particle kinetic energy (AKA current) should begin at the point of "reconnection". Instead we find that all the 'experiments' demonstrate that just the opposite is true, the "currents" come first, they generate the magnetic field, and they "reconnect". It's simply circuit/current reconnection, nothing more.

The continued use of the terminology of crackpots, cranks, conspiracy theorists, Creationists, and 911 Truthers is telling. If there was some legitimate, valid, objective, quantitative, scientific criticism of the contemporary understanding of magnetic reconnection, the arguments wouldn't have to be constructed from lies, childish insults, contempt for science and math, and repeated expressions of worship for dead guys whose work the critics clearly don't even understand.

You've personally never read the dead Nobel guy's work, or found a flaw in his work, so clearly *SOME* critics are clueless. The childishness of your response is telling. When I point out to you that you have the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse, and current comes first, you essentially remain in pure denial of scientific fact. These facts are empirically demonstrated in YOUR OWN EXPERIMENTS. Nobel or not, I can tell the difference between "current/circuit" reconnection and some mythical claim about a "reconnection" event where magnetic field energy is turned into particle kinetic energy at a "NULL" point. You're whole show is "busted". Instead of dealing with it, you go on insulting the individual, ignoring scientific fact, and hurling childish personal insults.

Who do you really think you're fooling anyway? Any child can tell the difference between reconnecting "currents" and reconnecting "magnetic lines" that turn stored magnetic field energy into particle kinetic energy. Your own cited experiments demonstrate *conclusively (without any doubt) that the 'current/charged particle kinetic energy' is what 'causes' reconnection. Reconnection does not 'cause' charged particle kinetic energy. You have the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse and any child can see it.
 
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But if there is no quantitative link between the two pictures (Birkeland certainly never provided it) then there is no quantitative evidence that the pictures illustrate the same phenomenon.

IMO you're being a wee "legalistic" from my perspective in relationship to two very specific images rather than acknowledging the charge separation/current carrying process that is responsible for the coronal loops. Is it really worth my time looking up the voltages and such for you again in Birkeland's work? Will it change your opinion? Did Mann and Onel demonstrate that there is a "charge separation" and a release of "circuit energy" in flare activity to your quantified satisfaction? Are you willing to apply that to *ALL* high energy coronal loop activity, or do you insist it be done instrument by instrument, wavelength by high energy wavelength, for every high energy wavelength observed all along a "coronal loop"?

If you'll acknowledge that the coronal loop process is a "charge separation" and "current flow" driven process, I will look up Birkeland's numbers for you. Otherwise you're welcome to go through his book and find it for yourself. :)

So, provide the quantitative evidence that the pictures illustrate the same phenomenon (use of Bayesian statistics is probably necessary here alongside the physical evidence) or stop accusing all and sundry of being in denial.

Here's where you seem fixated on trivial issues (two specific images) rather than the real and demonstrated "cause/effect" relationships that we're discussing. It's quite clear from the experiments on MRx theories what the order of events actually is:

A) charge separation or
B) current
C) reconnection/redirection (of current)

This is exactly 100% backwards from "magnetic reconnection" where magnetic field energy is turned into charged particle kinetic energy (aka current) at a specific point of "reconnection".

The experiments on reconnection all demonstrate the validity of Birkeland's work with cathodes and such, but they do absolutely nothing to support the claim that reconnection is between magnetic lines. In fact they clearly demonstrate (and actually say) that the reconnection is between "currents".
 
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Ya, but [...]


Nonsense. There are around 16,000 physicists in the US...

So the question would be, who among all the contemporary professional physicists and legitimate scientists in the world has been convinced by the atrocious, silly, dishonest, juvenile, and insulting arguments of the critics of magnetic reconnection? And if no real scientists have been convinced, why would any sane person continue to offer nothing other than the same dishonest, insulting, and convoluted spam?


Why do no physicists accept the claims that there are problems with the physics of magnetic reconnection? Why do none of them agree with the electric Sun crackpots on this issue? Is it the crackpots' lack of ability to make themselves understood? Is it that all 14 electric Sun nuts are correct and 16,000 physicists are all too stupid to get it? Why has no electric Sun crank been able to get any traction at all and convince even a single real scientist that there are problems with magnetic reconnection?
 
IMO you're being a wee "legalistic" from my perspective in relationship to two very specific images rather than acknowledging the charge separation/current carrying process that is responsible for the coronal loops. Is it really worth my time looking up the voltages and such for you again in Birkeland's work? Will it change your opinion? Did Mann and Onel demonstrate that there is a "charge separation" and a release of "circuit energy" in flare activity to your quantified satisfaction? Are you willing to apply that to *ALL* high energy coronal loop activity, or do you insist it be done instrument by instrument, wavelength by high energy wavelength, for every high energy wavelength observed all along a "coronal loop"?


All the undefined quote-marked terms here make this comment gibberish. It's not an argument because it's not even valid communication.

He was asking for a quantitative connection between the images being compared. There is none. The honest answer is, "There is no quantitative connection between the images being compared." Any other response is simply a dishonest avoidance of the actual question being asked.
 
Nonsense. There are around 16,000 physicists in the US...

Appeal to authority/popularity much? Your whole style of debate seems to be to move the conversations away from the actual physics (current comes first and actually does the reconnection), and always focus on the individual. IMO that is directly related to the fact that you've never read Alfven's book on circuit theory, or found any flaw in his work, so you really have nothing "scientific" to offer anyone. I'm sure there were just as many physicists in Alfven's day all ranting about "reconnection" too. So what? Did it change his opinion? Did he write anything actually *POSITIVE* about it?
 
Any other response is simply a dishonest avoidance of the actual question being asked.

You have no right to lecture anyone about honest responses to actual questions being asked. Which came first in that experiment Tim cited, current or 'reconnection' of that previously existing current?
 
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AGUFMSM31A1706L

Each 2.5~cm LaB6 cathode can produce current densities of 5-20 A/cm2 and Δ B/B ~ 10%. The background plasma (n ~ 2 × 1012 cm-3, d ~ 60 cm, L ~ 18 m, and τrep= 1 s) is produced with a DC discharge using a pulsed barium oxide-coated cathode. The two current channels are created by biasing the LaB6 cathodes with respect to a grid anode at the opposite end of the chamber. They are emitted parallel to each other and the background B field. J × B forces cause the currents to move across the field and interact. Reconnection has been observed at multiple locations between the two currents.

There's your first clue GM.
 
Appeal to authority/popularity much? [...]


It's not an appeal to authority, although the misunderstanding of the fallacy and intentional avoidance of the question is noted.

Why has the electric Sun contingent failed 100% in every effort ever made to convince even a single legitimate scientist that there are indeed problems with the physics of magnetic reconnection? That is a "why" question. The appropriate reply would explain what is wrong with the presentation, strategy, communication, science, understanding, or whatever the problem is with the crackpots' argument that makes it wholly ineffective.

If we can determine what is lacking in the argument and why it has never once succeeded, then the current strategy of repeating those failed arguments, lying about dead scientists, and tossing around undefined terms might be discarded, as it should be, and a more effective strategy might be employed. More people actually believe the world is hollow and that people/beings live inside than believe the Sun is powered by electricity and that there are inherent problems with the science of magnetic reconnection. Obviously the hollow Earthers have a much more successful method of presenting their case. So if there really is a problem with magnetic reconnection, a claim that has been made here but never successfully supported, something needs to be done to improve the way the case is being made.

Again, it's not an appeal to authority to note that a 100% failure in convincing any real scientist demonstrates a serious problem with the argument.
 
It's not an appeal to authority, although the misunderstanding of the fallacy and intentional avoidance of the question is noted.

It's not actually an appeal to authority fallacy because there are plenty of folk that have rejected MR theory, starting with Alfven himself who called it "pseudoscience" more than a half dozen times in front of a room full of plasma physicists.

Why has the electric Sun contingent failed 100% in every effort ever made to convince even a single legitimate scientist that there are indeed problems with the physics of magnetic reconnection?

Why do you begin with lies that ignore the fact your 100% number is fabricated, you're utterly ignoring the fact that Alfven (and I believe Peratt) reject(ed) it. You're in pure BS mode in other words because you never did your homework and/or studied circuit theory.

The irony is the way you're running like hell from my direct question to you about which came first, current or "reconnection". You're in hard core denial of scientific fact and you're quite literally making this up as you go. It was actually plasma physicists like Alfven and Peratt that taught me the legitimacy of circuit theory. Who did you study circuit theory from as it applies to the topic of plasma physics? We know it wasn't Alfven. We know it wasn't Peratt. Who was it?

You'll probably run like hell from that direct question too. Dodge much?
 
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Ah, so it's argument ad populum. Thank you for correcting us on which fallacy you're using.

No, it's the fallacy that GM is using, along with a healthy dose of denial about the scientific fact that currents come first and the currents do the "reconnecting".
 
In the following excerpts from Michael Mozina's recent posts, all highlighted statements are false.

As Michael Mozina has admitted, neither of those books says anything about magnetic reconnection. Hence Michael Mozina's repeated references to those books are off-topic.
I have admitted nothing of the sort! That is your own fabrication. In fact, I have provided quotes from Alfven's book on this topic on numerous occasions.
Lying about your previous posts does not erase them from the archives.

You have stated that Alfvén wrote nothing on the topic of magnetic reconnection. In the following excerpt, from just over two weeks ago, you said that twice:
You could not come up with a SINGLE paper he wrote on this topic, yet you insist he somehow supported it anyway. What a crock.

The worst part is that you're denying the legitimacy of a circuit oriented approach even though Alfven himself wrote *HUNDREDS* of papers on that topic, and zero papers on the topic of MR theory.


More false claims:
I have pointed out to all of you that your beloved Mrx experiments all begin and end with charged particle kinetic energy (aka current) along the "lines" and that "current' is what actually changes direction. You're putting the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse and hoping that nobody noticed. I noticed. Alfven noticed too. He preferred to work in terms that are consistent with other branches of science, including electrical engineering, and particle physics. Your claim that Magnetic field comes first and particle kinetic energy comes later is absolutely bogus. The charged particle kinetic energy does all the work and the "current" is what actually "reconnects" and/or changes topology.
Here's what's wrong with the highlighted statements:

Few (if any) of the experiments begin with "charged particle kinetic energy (aka current) along the" magnetic field lines. From the number of times you have made that false claim, I can only assume that you're still confused about the direction of the currents and/or the magnetic field lines.

In the experiment I suggested, none of the four currents ever change their direction. There are also several published experiments in which no current ever changes direction.

If you noticed either of the essential facts stated above, your repeated denials of those facts must be dishonest.

In the experiment I suggested, no current ever "reconnects and/or changes topology". That's true in several published experiments as well.

Ya, but all of that "research" demonstrates that electrical current comes first and 'reconnection' is between "currents/circuits", not simply 'magnetic lines'.
In the experiment I suggested, no current ever reconnects. The topological changes occur within the magnetic field.

Nobel or not, I can tell the difference between "current/circuit" reconnection and some mythical claim about a "reconnection" event where magnetic field energy is turned into particle kinetic energy at a "NULL" point. You're whole show is "busted". Instead of dealing with it, you go on insulting the individual, ignoring scientific fact, and hurling childish personal insults.
As demonstrated above, you are unable to tell the difference between reconnections that change the topology of a circuit/current and reconnections that change the topology of magnetic field lines.

Michael Mozina is the person who's been ignoring scientific fact while hurling childish personal insults.

Who do you really think you're fooling anyway? Any child can tell the difference between reconnecting "currents" and reconnecting "magnetic lines"
Michael Mozina can't tell the difference.

The experiments on reconnection all demonstrate the validity of Birkeland's work with cathodes and such, but they do absolutely nothing to support the claim that reconnection is between magnetic lines. In fact they clearly demonstrate (and actually say) that the reconnection is between "currents".
In the experiment I've been suggesting, a small change in current does not reverse the direction of current, nor does it change the circuit topology in any way, but it causes the magnetic field lines that go through certain points to change from circumnavigating one of the four conducting rods to circumnavigating a different conducting rod.

That's a change in the topology of the magnetic field. It occurs without any change in the direction of current or the topology of the circuit.

That empirical fact is easily demonstrated, and it contradicts both of your highlighted claims.
 
The idiocy of comparing a Saturn analogy (visible light) to a solar image in x-rays

No, that is NOT what I said. RC was actually kind enough to quote Birkeland and his "discharge" statements related to the first B/W image

You obviously still do not understand that there are multiple flaws with that images you are touting:
  1. The the first image (fig 247a on page is an anology to Saturn not to the Sun:
    Is Saturn the Sun?
    14th July 2009
  2. The images are in visible light and soft x-rays. Comparing them is idiotic.
  3. If someone were idiotic enough to compare the images then they would see that they are different.
    • Where are the spikes from the poles in the second image?
    • The structures around the equator in the second image do not curl toward the poles like the ones in the first image.
    • The second image is missing the bright impact point of the discharges in the first image.
    • The discharges in Birkeland's Saturn ring image extend to about half the radius of the metal ball he used. The coronal loops in the second image extend to ~10% of the Sun's radius.
    • All of the first image's discharges are from a narrow band around the equator. The coronal loops in the second image occur in a much wider band.
    • There are no discharges in the lower half of the first image. There are coronal loops in the lower half of the second image.
That first image is Figure 247a in Birkeland's book on page 661 and described in the text as
It is by powerful magnetisation of the magnetisable globe trt the phenomenon answering to Saturn's rings is produced. During this process, polar radiation and di'uptive discharges at the equator such as that shown in fig. 247a (which happens to be a unipolar di'harge) may also occur, if the current intensity of discharge is great.
emphasis added.
 
Theres your millionth clue MM :jaw-dropp:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AGUFMSM31A1706L
Each 2.5~cm LaB6 cathode can produce current densities of 5-20 A/cm2 and Δ B/B ~ 10%. The background plasma (n ~ 2 × 1012 cm-3, d ~ 60 cm, L ~ 18 m, and τrep= 1 s) is produced with a DC discharge using a pulsed barium oxide-coated cathode. The two current channels are created by biasing the LaB6 cathodes with respect to a grid anode at the opposite end of the chamber. They are emitted parallel to each other and the background B field. J × B forces cause the currents to move across the field and interact. Reconnection has been observed at multiple locations between the two currents.
The abstract is talking about multiple locations between the two currents, i.e. physically located at points between the two currents.

If this was anything to do with your fantasy of current reconnection then they would be talking about multiple reconnection events between the currents without the location bit.
 
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It's not actually an appeal to authority fallacy because there are plenty of folk that have rejected MR theory, starting with Alfven himself who called it "pseudoscience" more than a half dozen times in front of a room full of plasma physicists.
Still relying on the personal opinion of 1 person stated in a speech 30 years ago, Michael Mozina :jaw-dropp.
If you really want to stick with the argument ad populum logical fallacy then you need to show that you can count higher than 1.

You could have a case for a scientific concensus that MR theory is wrong if
  • You can list lots and lots and lots of plasma scientist that reject MR theory.
  • And that this list is a majority (> 50%) of all plasma scientists.
There is no sign that you understand that plasma scientist do magnetic reconnection experiments and use MR theory to explain their results every day.
 

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