Christian Salvation Is Heinously Unjust

Not a good measure. A religion can be painfully wrong yet impose no harm upon society. Conversely, take the Mormons. They're pretty whackadoodle but in the larger scheme of things, do less harm than might otherwise be the case.

I'm from Merthyr Tydfil,home of a large Mormon church. They don't bother anyone. They just go on being nutters in their own quiet way. I knew people there for years before I found out they were Mormons.
 
Zombie thread want BRAINS!

We can see that Jude hasn't read his Bible.

I've read it from cover to cover twice,just to have ammunition to use when I meet believers,which is not very often. I have never met a Christian who has actually read the bible or even large sections of it. All they ever get are selected highlights read out to them in church,which they half remember.
 
I'm not going to read the Bible for you.
Maybe you should read it for yourself.

You tell me, you quote the verses that make your point.

You show me where Jesus, Paul and Peter pronounce your judgments,

unless you are not telling the truth.
He just did. But maybe you don't have a Bible to look them up, so I'll quote the verses for you.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 10:9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.

Acts 13:38-39 Let it be known to you therefore, my brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you; by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.’

Acts 16:30-31 Then he brought them outside and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ They answered, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’

Rom 5:1-2 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God.

Rom 5:9-10 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.

Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgement following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.

Rom 9:30-33 What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling-stone, as it is written,
‘See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.’

Rom 10:9-13 ...because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. The scripture says, ‘No one who believes in him will be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

1 Corin 6:9-11 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2:5 ...even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

1 Pet 3:20-22 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight people, were saved through water. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Rom 11:19-20 You will say, ‘Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.’ That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.

1 Corin 3:10-11 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8-12 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. So then, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, called ‘the uncircumcision’ by those who are called ‘the circumcision’—a physical circumcision made in the flesh by human hands— remember that you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

2 Tim 1:9 ...who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,...

Titus 3:5 ...he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 3:20-24 For ‘no human being will be justified in his sight’ by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

But now, irrespective of law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,...

Rom 3:28 For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

Rom 4:24-25 ...but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification.

Gal 2:15-16 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law; for ‘The one who is righteous will live by faith.’

Gal 5:4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
 
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I'm not going to read the Bible for you.
You tell me, you quote the verses that make your point.
You show me where Jesus, Paul and Peter pronounce your judgments,
unless you are not telling the truth.



I am going to assume your lack of response is an acquiescence to the facts.

You asked for proof despite it actually being already given.

So I gave you the proof again.

You come back and assert that you are incapable or unwilling to look up verse reference in the bible and that you want to be spoon fed the actual verses' full text, betraying an ignorance of the book of your faith.

Foster Zygote was kind enough to do your work for you. He relieved you from having to read the book you avow is the source of your faith.

Have you actually deigned to read the verses?

Have you understood them?

Do you agree that they in fact support my claim and that I am "telling the truth"?

Have you learnt anything about the faith you aver and apparently know nothing about and are in fact unwilling to or incapable of reading its book in the first place?

The fact that you feigned not knowing "says who?" about two of the most basic and ubiquitous tenets of Christianity is in itself an admission of utter ignorance of the faith you avow.

Are you now better informed? I assume you are, as indicated by your lack of response. Do you have the courage to admit it?
 
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I am going to assume your lack of response is an acquiescence to the facts.
You have no facts, just you imagining how God is going to Judge people and deciding whatever He does, will be unjust.
Paul says that God wanted to be known by the name of, He Who Justifies Many. In order to do that, justify someone, instead of just killing everyone, He had to change the way people are Judged. You don't know what that method is, just The Law, which condemn everyone.
 
You have no facts, just you imagining how God is going to Judge people and deciding whatever He does, will be unjust.
Paul says that God wanted to be known by the name of, He Who Justifies Many. In order to do that, justify someone, instead of just killing everyone, He had to change the way people are Judged. You don't know what that method is, just The Law, which condemn everyone.

You mean the bible isn't the word of god?
 
I've read it from cover to cover twice,just to have ammunition to use when I meet believers,which is not very often. I have never met a Christian who has actually read the bible or even large sections of it. All they ever get are selected highlights read out to them in church,which they half remember.
Likewise the Quran. Everyone can tell you the "eeeeevil" things in it but no one ever seems to have read the (actually pretty boring) book.
 
I remember a similar story about a child who's faith was destroyed and went on to commit a heinous crime. (no it wasn't me)
 
You have no facts….
I mean you can't read a list of verses and from that make a determination on whether a particular person is going to heaven.



You are right...there are no facts...the Bible and any quotes from it are MYTHS and CLAPTRAP.

So is that what you are now admitting to?

Are you saying that there is no way of knowing what god wants or intends or what he is all about from the bible?

Good....welcome to reality and reason.




No, I mean you can't read a list of verses and from that make a determination on whether a particular person is going to heaven.


I am not the one who invented the UBIQUITOUS and underlying TENETS of the Christian faith.

I am not the one who invented the concepts of SALVATION and ATONEMENT....it was your beloved Paul and after him the entire Christianity.

Salvation and Atonement are concepts that are almost IN ALL SECTS of Christianity....so they are not MY assertions or inferences. If you deny this you are either DELUDED or DISINGENUOUS.



Paul says that God wanted to be known by the name of, He Who Justifies Many. In order to do that, justify someone, instead of just killing everyone, He had to change the way people are Judged. You don't know what that method is, just The Law, which condemn everyone.


Ethnikos....I really think that you NEED to READ the Epistles of Paul.

You need to sit down one day and clear your mind and read the epistles of Paul objectively and with ATTENTION….all in one go so that you don’t have time to forget what one said before you read the next.

You may learn something new....oh...and it might be contrary to what you think....are you capable of accepting the Cognitive Dissonance?


On the one hand you say
you can't read a list of verses and from that make a determination on whether a particular person is going to heaven.

on the other hand you say
Paul says that God wanted to be known by the name of, He Who Justifies Many.


HOW....HOW....HOW....the HELLLLL do YOUUUU know what Paul said or did not if it was not through the verses in the NT???????

OH wait..... you did not read those verses and are just Holding upon FAITH what YOU WANT to believe.


YOU...YOU are inferring something out of the verses that you did not read and thus deny the WHOLE CHRISTIAN CREED which is in fact based upon the Christian fathers and philosophers ACTUALLY READING the verses.

And then when I quote the verses that the Christians used to formulate their UBIQUITOUS CREED you say to me
You have no facts, just you imagining how God is going to Judge people.


BUT....IT WAS NOT ME who "imagined how God is going to judge people"....IT WAS THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES....and that is PLURAL....ChurcheSSSSS

NOT ME.....

But you are right about one thing
deciding whatever He does, will be unjust.

This is the only thing true in both your posting..... I AM the one deciding that Salvation and Atonement are unjust.

But apparently YOU TOO know that they are unjust. That is why you are now trying to contort wriggle and writhe some apologetics to alleviate the Cognitive Dissonance that the realization induces in your mind.

But your struggle is not with me..... I am only pointing out what the Christian Churchessssss HOLD AS FACT.

I personally think they are NOT TRUE....but not for the reasons you think they are not.....I don't believe in God.....you believe in some BIZARRE METAMORPHOSIS of a MYTH called Jesus to make your Cognitive Dissonance feel less painful.
 
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You are right...there are no facts...the Bible and any quotes from it are MYTHS and CLAPTRAP.

So is that what you are now admitting to?

Are you saying that there is no way of knowing what god wants or intends or what he is all about from the bible?

Good....welcome to reality and reason.


I am not the one who invented the UBIQUITOUS and underlying TENETS of the Christian faith.

I am not the one who invented the concepts of SALVATION and ATONEMENT....it was your beloved Paul and after him the entire Christianity.

Salvation and Atonement are concepts that are almost IN ALL SECTS of Christianity....so they are not MY assertions or inferences. If you deny this you are either DELUDED or DISINGENUOUS.


Ethnikos....I really think that you NEED to READ the Epistles of Paul.

You need to sit down one day and clear your mind and read the epistles of Paul objectively and with ATTENTION….all in one go so that you don’t have time to forget what one said before you read the next.

You may learn something new....oh...and it might be contrary to what you think....are you capable of accepting the Cognitive Dissonance?


On the one hand you say


on the other hand you say



HOW....HOW....HOW....the HELLLLL do YOUUUU know what Paul said or did not if it was not through the verses in the NT???????

OH wait..... you did not read those verses and are just Holding upon FATH what YOU WANT to believe.


YOU...YOU are inferring something out of the verses that you did not read and thus deny the WHOLE CHRISTIAN CREED which is in fact based upon the Christian fathers and philosophers ACTUALLY READING the verses.

And then when I quote the verses that the Christians used to formulate their UBIQUITOUS CREED you say to me



BUT....IT WAS NOT ME who "imagined how God is going to judge people"....IT WAS THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES....and that is PLURAL....ChurcheSSSSS

NOT ME.....

But you are right about one thing


This is the only thing true in both your posting..... I AM the one deciding that Salvation and Atonement are unjust.

But apparently YOU TOO know that they are. That is why you are now trying to contort wriggle and writhe some apologetics to alleviate the Cognitive Dissonance that the realization induces in your mind.

But your struggle is not with me..... I am only pointing out what the Christian Churchessssss HOLD AS FACT.

I personally think they are NOT TRUE....but not for the reasons you think they are not.....I don't believe in God.....you believe in some BIZARRE METAMORPHOSIS of a MYTH called Jesus to make your Cognitive Dissonance feel less painful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM
 
@leumas
I am not the one who invented the UBIQUITOUS and underlying TENETS of the Christian faith.
You hate Christianity and in particular, Paul, because he was the Heretic of your religion, Judaism.
 
@leumas
I am not the one who invented the UBIQUITOUS and underlying TENETS of the Christian faith.
You hate Christianity and in particular, Paul, because he was the Heretic of your religion, Judaism.


Ethnikos....Ethnikos....
209954de4ffa543d41.gif


I don't see how your reply relates in any manner or form to the statement of mine you quote.

I don't see how in any way (even if true) it invalidates the topic of the OP.

Assuming that in fact I do hate Christianity and I told you that “Jesus is God”....does that in any way invalidate or validate the statement "Jesus is God"?

Stating that I hate Christianity, does not in any way negate or address the issue of the heinousness and vileness of the concepts of Salvation and Redemption and Atonement; nor does it negate that these are CHRISTIAN concepts (and this) not mine.

Nevertheless I will address your (albeit illogically placed) accusations.

I don't hate Christianity as YOU ASSUME because I am Jewish. I told you in a previous post that I am an ATHEIST :hit:and therefore I consider Christianity and Judaism equally retarded, VILE, preposterous and contemptible.

I don't hate Paul. I am not even sure he actually existed for certain and thus I find it illogical and pointless to invest such emotions as hate in, for all intents and purposes, a fictional character. That is almost like saying I hate Professor Moriarty.

Christianity and Paul are to me much like Voldemort and Snape.

Unfortunately what makes Christianity (and all religions) a clear and real danger are the morons who act upon it as if it were other than a myth on par with Homer's Iliad or Aesop’s Fables.

Paul’s foolishness had disastrous unintended consequences. I do not mean to Jews. The harm to Jews (direct and indirect) was tragic enough. Regrettably, it pales in comparison to the RETARDATION and VITIATION with which Christianity eventually plagued the human race.

Among the very deeply pensive and poignant short stories in the marvelous book Galileo's Children: Tales of Science Vs. Superstition , the one by Keith Roberts called The will Of God expresses most exquisitely the effects of Christianity on the world.

Roberts' short story explores the possibility of an inventive mind that creates the phonograph during the Inquisition era and is burnt on the stake as a witch along with his demon-summoning contraption, his scribblings, as well as the only witness to the facts, his maid that snitched on him to the Grand Inquisitor after being terrified out of her mind by the demon voices coming out of the device.

This fictional account is quite illustrative of what Christianity managed to do across the board to all SCIENCE and KNOWLEDGE in REALITY, not just in a fictional ponderings. For example Giordano Bruno.

A REAL historical parallel to the above story is the MURDER of Hypatia by Christians.

Hypatia was an amazing mind. Who knows what more she could have accomplished had not "the mob of Christian monks flayed her body with ostraca (pot shards), and then burned her remains". All because of Christian Love and Tolerance.


Also see this illuminating albeit tragic information. Not to mention the persecution of women throughout the Christian ages (also see this).
 
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Leumas said:

I could forgive even all that if the Christian peoples could recognize all that, feel shame and swear to do better... but you don't see that in the majority.
 
I could forgive even all that if the Christian peoples could recognize all that, feel shame and swear to do better... but you don't see that in the majority.


The problem is that with most, Cognitive Dissonance is so painful that they refuse to admit the facts of history or current affairs, assuming they are willing to actually listen or read about them in the first place.

They attend church in their corniest ostentations and gaudy accoutrements to be ministered upon by a crass coxcomb within profligate surroundings and they see no rift between all this and Jesus' message or life style and admonitions against exorbitance (Matt 19:23-24) and exhortations for simplicity (Matt 5:1-12).

Within the very walls of these lavish churches they advocate wars of revenge and of aggression and for building barriers between them and their neighbors to begrudge them earning a living yet they tout the peace loving (Matt 5:38-48) Jesus’ call to “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” as the second most important commandment ever (Matt 22:38-39).

I could go on and on ad nauseam about the dissonant actions that they see absolutely no hypocrisy in carrying out due to lack of knowledge compounded by ignorance of their ignorance and refusal to know even when their ignorance is pointed out to them.
 

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