Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

MRC_Hans · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
2 almost identical brains will produce 2 almost identical illusions of reality “out there”

That is not the point. The point is the reality itself.

Hans think about an very fast moving electron , - think about how small it is, - the electron have its completely own space-time reality.

No. That is the point. The electron has the same reality as you and I. The perception is different, but the reality is the same.

BUT the reality "OUT THERE" DON'T CARE and is not changing, only the very very very small reality of the elctron is changing.

No, you are using the word 'reality' in the wrong way.

So there it is not necessary to share a common outer REALITY,.

What is outside becomes irrelevant, AND ALWAYS WAS SO.

No, that is a serious mistake. If you will, you can live in your private reality, but then your interaction becomes uninteresting for everybody else. What is interesting for other people is our common reality.

The unification with an outer reality is so locked up in your mind and brain that you cannot release yourself from it

I can, but when discussing science it is not interesting. If we were discussing literature we might leave the outer reality and discuss fiction, but this is the science forum.

Hans

Paul · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne, answer the house question properly, then answer the question about dimensions. Properly.

Bjarne · Jan 17, 2012

MRC_Hans said:
That is not the point. The point is the reality itself.
No. That is the point. The electron has the same reality as you and I. The perception is different, but the reality is the same.
Hans

Hans you simply don't get the point.
The fast moving electron would see a reality comparable different as yours.
But it will also say, - I see reality and it is out there.
You too would say, - I see reality and it is out there
But when you compare these 2 realities, they are NOT the same "in there" and also not “out there”.

Imagine that the electron was orbiting round your house with huge speed.
The faster it is orbiting the more deformed is the whole universe seen from the perspective of that electron.

But the universe is not changing at all due to that what that small electron does, the universe don’t care.
So we are here only talking about that the reality of the electron is changing, -and so is its inner reality, - but the outer reality, the universe is not. .

In the same way, when you move due to different systems speed, - the universe doesn’t care about the way you see the universe is changing because of speed and gravity differences..

So you cannot say that the way I see the universe right now, is a 100% reflection of what the universe really is “out there”.

Out there always seems to be an illusion.
You will always discover that because the universe 'out there', - "doesn’t care" about that yours inner reality changes.
Only the reality "in there" - in your head, - seems to be the real one.

The key to understand this is that you can change the deformation of the inner universe faster as the outer universe can do the same.
This mean only your reality inside you head in these cases is changing, and therefore also only these inner realities are real.

Paul · Jan 17, 2012

Why are you having so much trouble with the concept that reality is independent of the perception of the observer?

steenkh · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
The fast moving electron would see a reality comparable different as yours.
But it will also say, - I see reality and it is out there.
You too would say, - I see reality and it is out there
But when you compare these 2 realities, they are NOT the same "in there" and also not “out there”.

Why not?

Imagine that the electron was orbiting round your house with huge speed.
The faster it is orbiting the more deformed is the whole universe seen from the perspective of that electron.

You can look at reality from different perspectives, and it can still be the same reality.

So we are here only talking about that the reality of the electron is changing, -and so is its inner reality, - but the outer reality, the universe is not. .

If you think there are more than one reality, why did you have such difficulty stating it before? Please, for the record put it as clearly as possible: is there just one reality, or are there more realities?

Do you think the rest of the world is there when you are not looking?

Bjarne · Jan 17, 2012

steenkh said:
Why not?

You can look at reality from different perspectives, and it can still be the same reality.

The reality of a cow when it never never change, must be stable; - there are not such stable reality “out there” .
If is was this is what math then should show us, but reality math shows us a something very different.
I mean if reality really was out there the result, - for example that the OUTER reality of a cow OUT there, - must be a comparable multi size cow.

If you think there are more than one reality, why did you have such difficulty stating it before? Please, for the record put it as clearly as possible: is there just one reality, or are there more realities?
Do you think the rest of the world is there when you are not looking?

The truth must be that outer and inner reality is the same, but the reality outside doesn’t exist, and the one inside is made of the same stuff as dreams.

It can take time to get use to even think this way, but it seems that the old saying, that the universe is not outside our body, - but rather inside us, - could be true.

When the creator has made reality of dreams, he must had have a problem with gravity, because how can something fall to the ground, when it all only is made of dreams? I mean I have never seen a dream falling to the ground. – This is maybe why gravity is an elastic property of space-density. And space density is then the stuff dreams (realities) are made of.

Regarding the question whether there are any reality if we or someone not is watching?.
Well it is a good question.
If reality is made of dreams, there are many such dreams, one for every single individual.
And since there only are inner dreams, and no reality "out there" the question actually answers itself due to only inner realities are real, whereby there is NOTHING – OUT THERE, also not even if we look out there.

I think the idea with this way of seeing reality is simply that you must stop believing in outer and inner realities. There is always only one option, and this is not out there, but in there.

Still we can speak about the laws of reality and about the laws of the universe, also even though it only is a inner universe made of dreams. .

Reality Check · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
...gibberish...
SR and GR is the laws for how you will see and hear reality exactly in this second. - It will not be the exact same as one living at the moon, or one traveling with extreme speed.
...gibberish...

How idiotic.
SR and GR are the same laws for someone on the Moon or someone traveling with extreme speed.
They describe the one reality that we exist in.

Reality Check · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne, Can you count up to 4 (width, depth, height, time)

Bjarne said:
Inside your head there is a 2D monitor
...gibberish...

And now you are claiming to be a mind-reader

!

You are lying. Inside my head is a 4D monitor. I can measure

width
depth
height
time

I can count up to 4.

Can you, Bjarne?

Bjarne, Given an equation, how do you determine the n in nD for it?
First asked 16th January 2012 (2 days and counting!)

Bjarne: Cite your 'loads of contradictions' for the Big Bang
First asked 21st October 2011 (98 days and counting!)

Bjarne · Jan 17, 2012

Reality Check said:
How idiotic.
SR and GR are the same laws for someone on the Moon or someone traveling with extreme speed.
They describe the one reality that we exist in.

Yes this could be misunderstood
The laws are the same, but the realities are different.
SR and GR is the closet we are, and the best math we have to indirectly describe what reality is made of.

Bjarne · Jan 17, 2012

Reality Check said:
I can measure

width

depth

height

time

I can count up to 4.

Almost right
We know the brain is projecting the third dimension, - but first after that a 2 dimension reality is created.
Before the brain can project the 3rd dimension of a box, (or a cow) it must first see the box or the cow.
The projection of the 3rd dimension happens always later, after impulses is received, also even though it happens so fast that you see it as did it happen at the same time.
This is why the basic reality is 2D

Time is included in all realities, that's right, but we can can assume we would stop time and the inner movie would freeze.
Still the basic reality is 2D

But well it is true the flow of reality includes time, to make RC happy let's just included it.

But basic reality is always without the 3rd dimension.

Reality Check · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
Until recently I believed that the basic nature of gravity could be mathematical understood as a 3D "classic reality", But I am "forced" to give up such idea. - The math we have tells a different story.

At last you get something almost right :jaw-dropp

!

The math and experimental evidence

eye-poppi) does tell us that the basic nature of gravity is not a 3D classic reality, i.e. the classical Euclidean geometry (3 spacial dimensions) + a separate dimension of time.
Newtonian gravity does not match reality for strong gravitational fields, e.g. see the orbit of Mercury. So we have to use the different geometry of GR where the the basic nature of gravity is understood as a 4D Lorentzian manifold.

Paul · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
The reality of a cow when it never never change, must be stable; - there are not such stable reality “out there” .

Cows change all the time. The contents of reality change all the time.

If is was this is what math then should show us, but reality math shows us a something very different.

??????

I mean if reality really was out there

Which, of course, it is.

the result, - for example that the OUTER reality of a cow OUT there, - must be a comparable multi size cow.

Please try and explain, carefully, exactly what aspect of the existence of reality you are having trouble with.

The truth must be that outer and inner reality is the same,

There's only one reality.

reality, n.
I. The quality or state of being real.

1. Real existence; what is real rather than imagined or desired; the aggregate of real things or existences; that which underlies and is the truth of appearances or phenomena.

but the reality outside doesn’t exist, and the one inside is made of the same stuff as dreams.

Cod philosophical nonsense.

It can take time to get use to even think this way,

Sorry, there's some drying paint that won't watch itself.

but it seems that the old saying, that the universe is not outside our body, - but rather inside us, - could be true.

Really, you are seriously proposing this?

When the creator has made reality of dreams,

Are you going to start with intelligent design now?

he must had have a problem with gravity, because how can something fall to the ground, when it all only is made of dreams? I mean I have never seen a dream falling to the ground.

Are you stoned, or just trolling?

This is maybe why gravity is an elastic property of space-density.

Except it isn't.

I think the idea with this way of seeing reality is simply that you must stop believing in outer and inner realities.

Well obviously, if you don't believe in reality, anything is possible.

There is always only one option, and this is not out there, but in there.

One option for you, the whole of reality for the rest of us.

Still we can speak about the laws of reality and about the laws of the universe, also even though it only is a inner universe made of dreams.

Even you must notice the obvious stupidity inherent in that.

DazzaD · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
If is was this is what math then should show us, but reality math shows us a something very different.

Argglle..

Yes.. this is the point... use the maths you are claiming is the useful thing

Please tell me what you do when you look at an equation and decide on what dimensions are represented by it.

If you dont use maths to do that then please refrain from bringing in arguments based on "fundamental" equations or SR or GR.

Reality Check · Jan 17, 2012

Bjarne said:
The laws are the same, but the realities are different.

That is idiotic. SR and GR describe the same reality. - the universe in which we exist.

Reality Check · Jan 17, 2012

Can you count to 3, Bjarne

Bjarne said:
Almost right
We know the brain is projecting the third dimension...gibberish....

Totally wrong.
You have the delusion that the brain is projecting the third dimension. This is easily shown to be a delusion.
Look at a box. Count the spacial dimensions:

width
depth
height

Feel a box. Count the spacial dimensions:

width
depth
height

Measure a box using a ruler:

width = w
depth = d
height = h

Can you count to 3, Bjarne?

Bjarne, Given an equation, how do you determine the n in nD for it?
First asked 16th January 2012 (2 days and counting!)

Bjarne: Cite your 'loads of contradictions' for the Big Bang
First asked 21st October 2011 (98 days and counting!)

Bjarne · Jan 18, 2012

Reality Check said:
At last you get something almost right !

The math and experimental evidence eye-poppi) does tell us that the basic nature of gravity is not a 3D classic reality, i.e. the classical Euclidean geometry (3 spacial dimensions) + a separate dimension of time.
Newtonian gravity does not match reality for strong gravitational fields, e.g. see the orbit of Mercury. So we have to use the different geometry of GR where the the basic nature of gravity is understood as a 4D Lorentzian manifold.

RC you ignore that the 3rd dimention is a process in your brain. Nothing I can do about it.
Newtonian reality is also not 3D, - the reason to that it is not exact, is only that reality is a tiny bit different for each meter away from a gravitational field you get.
Modified for GR influences Newtonian equation is also right.

Gravity change = Reality change.
Both classic Newtonian gravity equations and relativity are broad hints, showing that the nature of basic reality is must stranger as what as one should expect in a 3D “reality” perspective.

Bjarne · Jan 18, 2012

Reality Check said:
That is idiotic. SR and GR describe the same reality. - the universe in which we exist.

No they do not, if they did the whole universe must change every time you drive your car.
It doesn’t happen that way.

The reality of a muon is DIFFERENT from the way you see reality, the muon CANNOT say that the reality (the univers) is see is a 100% reflection of the SAME reality out there that you see.
Simply because it is a contradiction to how you see it.

Either can you say that reality is like you see it, because plenty other observers would say you live in your own universe. And THIS is the TRUTH.

Digest or don’t, it is your own problem if you ignore what reality is and not is.

Bjarne · Jan 18, 2012

Reality Check said:
Totally wrong.
You have the delusion that the brain is projecting the third dimension. This is easily shown to be a delusion.
Look at a box. Count the spacial dimensions:

width

depth

height

Feel a box. Count the spacial dimensions:

width

depth

height

Measure a box using a ruler:

width = w

depth = d

height = h

Can you count to 3, Bjarne?

The box is made of dream and the content too.
Do you not believe that your brain project the 3D dimension?

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-12-insights-brain-reconstructs-dimension.html

Can you put here in a box http://0.tqn.com/d/psychology/1/7/Z/5/Spinning_Dancer.gif ( Mama mia)

Edit
Here is also a short version http://talkingskull.com/article/third-dimension-just-illusion

MRC_Hans · Jan 18, 2012

Bjarne said:
Hans you simply don't get the point.
The fast moving electron would see a reality comparable different as yours.
But it will also say, - I see reality and it is out there.
You too would say, - I see reality and it is out there
But when you compare these 2 realities, they are NOT the same "in there" and also not “out there”.

Imagine that the electron was orbiting round your house with huge speed.
The faster it is orbiting the more deformed is the whole universe seen from the perspective of that electron.

But the universe is not changing at all due to that what that small electron does, the universe don’t care.So we are here only talking about that the reality of the electron is changing, -and so is its inner reality, - but the outer reality, the universe is not. .

Exactly! That is the point. In other words, as I have been saying all along: There is only one reality, but our perception of that reality can be different.

Bjarne, if you would just come right to the point, instead of beating around the bush, we could save a lot of time and energy.

So you cannot say that the way I see the universe right now, is a 100% reflection of what the universe really is “out there”.

Out there always seems to be an illusion.

No, 'illusion' is not the right word. "Illusion" is something that is not there, but the universe is very much there. Perception is the word. You perceive the universe in a certain way, but it is not an illusion; the way your individual perception of the universe is is bound by strict physical laws (I'm not talking about your personal interpretation, which is rather weird, but your objective perception). I will perceive reality in a slightly different way, but I can calculate how your perception is, and vice versa. Just as with the house: I see the outside, but I'm able to know what the inside is like, so I can know what you are seeing, because it is the same reality, the same house.

You will always discover that because the universe 'out there', - "doesn’t care" about that yours inner reality changes.
Only the reality "in there" - in your head, - seems to be the real one.

No that is not so, but it does give a clue to your predicament. I have no problem realizing that the reality of the universe is impossible to perceive fully. I know that if I want to understand what is outside the range of my senses, and my mind-power, I must use mathematics, and approximations.

The key to understand this is that you can change the deformation of the inner universe faster as the outer universe can do the same.

No, the key is to understand that any deformations you make of your inner universe are indeed illusions, and will only serve to confuse you.

This mean only your reality inside you head in these cases is changing, and therefore also only these inner realities are real.

No, they are not real, and that is the danger: Fantasy is a great thing, but if you loose the skill to distinguish between fantasy and reality, you are in dire problems.

Hans

MRC_Hans · Jan 18, 2012

Bjarne said:
*Cow gibberish ignored*

The truth must be that outer and inner reality is the same, but the reality outside doesn’t exist, and the one inside is made of the same stuff as dreams.

That is an untenable position. The outer reality will impose itself on you, whether you want it or not.

It can take time to get use to even think this way, but it seems that the old saying, that the universe is not outside our body, - but rather inside us, - could be true.

It takes more than time, it takes insanity to think that way.

When the creator has made reality of dreams, he must had have a problem with gravity, because how can something fall to the ground, when it all only is made of dreams? I mean I have never seen a dream falling to the ground. – This is maybe why gravity is an elastic property of space-density. And space density is then the stuff dreams (realities) are made of.

Insane.

Regarding the question whether there are any reality if we or someone not is watching?.
Well it is a good question.

No, it is a purely philosophical question, and it was never meant to be applied to the actual reality.

If reality is made of dreams, there are many such dreams, one for every single individual.
And since there only are inner dreams, and no reality "out there" the question actually answers itself due to only inner realities are real, whereby there is NOTHING – OUT THERE, also not even if we look out there.

I think the idea with this way of seeing reality is simply that you must stop believing in outer and inner realities. There is always only one option, and this is not out there, but in there.

This is called solipsism and it is empirically testable. Prepare for:

MRC_Hans' practical test of Solipsism .^(tm)
Disclaimer: This experiment might not only bruise your ego, but also your body, so you undertake it entirely at your own risk. I will not be held responsible for any consequences, including, but not limited to, loss of pride, peace of mind, teeth, etc.

1) Find a busy city street.

2) Wait for large aggressive looking male to walk by (generally, the more tattoos, the better).

3) Walk up behind said large aggressive looking male and direct a solid kick at the lower, rear portion of his body.

4) When he turns, tell him: "That was because you mother is so ugly".

5) Observe.

You will soon have tangible evidence for the following:

a) You exist physically.

b) At least one other entity exists physically.

c) You and that other entity are in communication, both abstractly and physically.

d) The other entity probably has a mother.

You may conclude that all your observations are, after all, part of an illusion, but the experience should convince you that you had better treat the illusion as reality .

Good luck!

(I have posted this many times before, but there seems to be a recurring need)

Hans

Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

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