Anologies for WTC 1 and 2 collapses....

Illuminist14

Student
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
40
Analogies*

Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone could critique and add to a random analogy I just thought of to help describe the wtc collapses 1 and 2. I don't think its great but hope we can all add to it and change where required, the reasin I want one is to help others understand the collapse a bit easier, although it was a very messy collapse I accept that.


My idea is that if you had a stack of plywood for the floors, some lightweight aliminium rods for perimeter columns, and maybe some rods of steel for the cores, then perhaps some spring connections to hold the floors in place respectively. Then place a bag of sand on each floor to equal the floor weight, and contents people etc. And start removing some of the columns and maybe even heat them up aswell for realism. Once the collapse initiates I would hope each floor would shear (but this is why plywood is probably not a great floor material) paper mache? Please help and input I'd be greatful.

Thanks all.
 
Hi Illuminist, and welcome to the forum!

The problem with using scale models for such demonstrations is that the effects of scaling are complex, and create enormous differences in behavior. A scale model, constructed along the lines you've suggested (or along most any reasonable-seeming lines) would not exhibit the kind of progressive collapse the towers did.

And in fact, 9/11 conspiracy theorists have constructed scale models in various ways, from materials such as wire mesh, stacks of plastic trays, and even stacks of pizza boxes, and observed that they do not collapse the way the towers did.

The basic problem is that the structural strength of an object -- say, a steel rod -- scales differently than the mass and weight of the object. So, all other things being equal, smaller scale versions of a structure are much stronger, relative to forces derived from their own mass such as weight and momentum, than the full scale versions. This is called the "square-cube law," because the strength of similarly proportioned objects such as steel rods increases as the square of the linear scale factor, while their mass and weight increases as the cube of that factor. So larger-scale structures made of identical materials will get weaker relative to their own mass, until at some scale, they would collapse under their own weight.

There are lots of standard examples. A mouse falling one story will likely survive with no injury, while a horse falling one story would suffer at least broken legs, and an elephant would be completely crushed (skull and rib cage collapsed) by the same fall.

Lift up one corner of a wooden doghouse, and the whole doghouse will tilt up with no noticeable distortion and no damage. Lift up a small wooden house by one corner, and the house will split apart somewhere in the middle just as it begins to tilt. Lift up a six story wooden apartment building by one corner, and the corner will crumble away from the rest of the structure before most of it even begins to tilt.

You can easily pick up a cupcake between two fingers, and toss it around. To pick up a birthday cake made of exactly the same materials, you'd better use both hands and treat it gently; if you start tossing it around it will soon crumble apart. But a large wedding cake (still made of the same materials) can't be picked up by two hands at all, not even if you had proportionately larger hands.

These scaling effects are the basic reason that large structures do not behave in intuitive ways, that is, the way familiar smaller objects do. Here's an old post of mine that dramatizes this difference by comparing the "strength" of a large building with that of a delicate glass wine goblet, and showing how in proportion to its own mass, the wine goblet is far stronger. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5544363#post5544363.

It is possible to demonstrate progressive collapse with a physical model, but the design of the model has to take into account the effects of the scaling. So if you were using plywood sheets for the floors and metal rods for the columns, the rods would have to be thin enough to have a similar reserve strength to the columns in the towers -- something like, enough strength to hold three times the load they're actually holding. They would therefore be much skinnier, in scale, than the towers' columns.

That would cause other scaling problems, though. Such skinny steel columns, if overloaded, would bend like pieces of wire (since they'd basically be pieces of wire) rather than fracture like the real columns did; the structural steel of the real columns could not bend that way without breaking apart as they did. So you'd have to compensate for that, perhaps by making the scale columns out of shorter pieces soldered or glued together, or by using a different material with comparable resiliency at the smaller scale, such as glass rods.

And even then, you still have some scaling problems. Gravity doesn't scale, so the fact that each scale model floor only falls a short distance before impacting the next floor down (or the ground) will mean the falling upper section will have significantly less momentum relative to its weight in the scale model. You'd have to compensate for that again, either by conducting the experiment in a centrifuge (increasing the effective "gravity"), or by further increasing the mass of the floors relative to the strength of the supports to compensate, or by making the scale model much taller.

Then there's the effect of scaling on angular momentum to consider, likely making the scale model more prone to tipping over than the actual towers were.

All this means that once you do correct all the necessary scaling effects and demonstrate progressive collapse in such a model, the conspiracy theorists will insist that you "rigged the model to fail" and that your demonstration has no relation to the real towers.

A case where this has already happened is progressive collapse of card towers. The various scaling factors happen to interrelate in such a way as to make large "house of cards" structures behave rather similarly to full-scale buildings, including showing progressive top-down collapse. But of course, "real buildings aren't made of cards!" provides an easy excuse for conspiracists to disregard such phenomena.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Hi and thanks for a very detailed reply.

I gather what you're saying about different behaviours of a scale and a huge structure, and its a good point. Also yes the angular momentum issue with the tilting is something important to consider.

On that topic some people cannot understand (myself included to a degree) why the angular momentum of the top sections once tilting slowly stopped and just fell straight down... From what I've read into it, it appears that the fact the top section was not a rigid structure and started to disintergrate meaning that it no longer acquired angualr momentum as it dissipated. The other thing is the pivot or hinge failed shortly after the tilt occurred, could this be why the top section started to go downwards more than sideway?
 
On that topic some people cannot understand (myself included to a degree) why the angular momentum of the top sections once tilting slowly stopped and just fell straight down... From what I've read into it, it appears that the fact the top section was not a rigid structure and started to disintergrate meaning that it no longer acquired angualr momentum as it dissipated. The other thing is the pivot or hinge failed shortly after the tilt occurred, could this be why the top section started to go downwards more than sideway?

I've seen this point made before, and the one thing that always seems to be missing from it is any kind of evidence to support the claim that the rate of rotation of the upper block slowed. I wouldn't trust the Mk. 1 Eyeball [tm] to make any measurement that sensitive. Photographs of the collapse will always be misleading, because there's a tendency to use the distance of collapse as a scaling factor; that will always give the false impression that the rate of rotation is slowing, when in fact it's the rate of descent that's increasing. So I'd like to see some measurements of the angle of the upper block as a function of time to back this assertion up. The problem is that truthers have repeated this claim, among others, so many times that there's a tendency to just assume there are some grounds for it; I don't believe that there are. There so often aren't.

Dave
 
I've seen this point made before, and the one thing that always seems to be missing from it is any kind of evidence to support the claim that the rate of rotation of the upper block slowed. I wouldn't trust the Mk. 1 Eyeball [tm] to make any measurement that sensitive. Photographs of the collapse will always be misleading, because there's a tendency to use the distance of collapse as a scaling factor; that will always give the false impression that the rate of rotation is slowing, when in fact it's the rate of descent that's increasing. So I'd like to see some measurements of the angle of the upper block as a function of time to back this assertion up. The problem is that truthers have repeated this claim, among others, so many times that there's a tendency to just assume there are some grounds for it; I don't believe that there are. There so often aren't.

Dave

Ah ok fair enough. I listened to your interview btw with Gage fair play to you. I know you've debated him before, he just sounded like a parrot in all fairness.

I know he claims 6 seconds for WTC 7 to collapse and I recall you saying actually it took a long time to collapse, by that do you mean 16 seconds or whatever it was clocked at was a long time, relative to the 6 seconds?

It makes sense though does it not, that if the hinge of the top section which supports the tilting action, when it fails the angular momentum would dissipate?
 
Ah ok fair enough. I listened to your interview btw with Gage fair play to you

Different physicist called Dave, sorry. There are quite a few of us round here ;). You're thinking of Dave Thomas, who has indeed fought the good fight to great effect.

It makes sense though does it not, that if the hinge of the top section which supports the tilting action, when it fails the angular momentum would dissipate?

Not necessarily, no. Angular momentum doesn't just dissipate; it requires an opposed turning moment to reduce the rate of rotation of an object. Conservation of angular momentum is, quite literally, what makes the world go round. [sorry, couldn't help myself] For the rotation of the upper block to be stopped, the leading edge would have to experience greater resistance than the trailing edge. There won't necessarily be any such difference, because both are experiencing similar resistance from the structure below. The rate of angular acceleration will drop to zero, but not necessarily the rate of rotation.

Dave
 
The hinge is necessary for the angular momentum to increase. So once the hinge fails, one would not expect the rotation to accelerate. However, the already-existing rotation would continue, unless additional forces acted to slow it down.

As the downward movement accelerates, such a constant rotation would become less noticeable, especially as the rotating mass rapidly becomes hidden by dust.

However, there are good reasons why the rotation might have actually slowed down. The momentum transfer taking place in the progressive inelastic collisions with stationary structures below would have transfered some angular momentum to that additional mass, in the same ways and for the same reasons that it transfered some of its downward momentum. Redistribution of a fixed amount of angular momentum (once the hinge had broken) among a greater total mass would slow the overall rotation rate.

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: Cross-posted with Dave -- and apparently we're in a bit of disagreement on a minor physics-related point. This doesn't happen often... and if I'm the one who's right, that's something that happens even less, as in never...
 
Last edited:
However, there are good reasons why the rotation might have actually slowed down. The momentum transfer taking place in the progressive inelastic collisions with stationary structures below would have transfered some angular momentum to that additional mass, in the same ways and for the same reasons that it transfered some of its downward momentum. Redistribution of a fixed amount of angular momentum (once the hinge had broken) among a greater total mass would slow the overall rotation rate.

I'm not so sure about that one. It seems to me that symmetry suggests otherwise. The leading edge is fracturing supports, and hence losing energy, at a rate directly proportional to the distance it's fallen, as is the trailing edge, so both are experiencing the same average force; hence, no turning moment. Collisions can impart angular momentum in either sense, and I don't really see why one sense would be preferred (as opposed to linear momentum, which will always be preferentially, though not exclusively, directed downwards). It may be possible for the rotation to slow down, speed up, or remain the same, depending on the fine details of the collapse.

Dave

ETA: Saw your edit, Myriad. I think the best answer may be "We can't really be certain either way," which means we can both claim to be right.
 
Last edited:
There are two reasons why angular velocity decreases as the top part falls into the structure below:

a) The falling mass increases; momentum is the product of mass and velocity (equivalent terms for angular momentum; just keeing it easy).
"Conversation of (angular) momentum" means it stays the same
Mass increases.
In order for (angular) momentum to remain constant, (angular) velocity must decrease

b) The side of the top part that rotates downwards meets the structure below at a greater differential (linear) velocity than the other side, so forces and dissipated energy and momentum would also be slightly higher on that side, slowing the rotation down.




As for materials for scale models: I really like spaghetti to play the role of columns :p
 
I'm not so sure about that one. It seems to me that symmetry suggests otherwise. The leading edge is fracturing supports, and hence losing energy, at a rate directly proportional to the distance it's fallen, as is the trailing edge, so both are experiencing the same average force; hence, no turning moment. Collisions can impart angular momentum in either sense, and I don't really see why one sense would be preferred (as opposed to linear momentum, which will always be preferentially, though not exclusively, directed downwards). It may be possible for the rotation to slow down, speed up, or remain the same, depending on the fine details of the collapse.

Dave

ETA: Saw your edit, Myriad. I think the best answer may be "We can't really be certain either way," which means we can both claim to be right.


Before declaring a draw, I'd argue that the rotation is the asymmetry. Leading and trailing edges might fracture supports at an equal rate, but if the upper block's rotation (let's say it's east-to-west at the interface) causes both edges to fracture more of those supports toward the west, then there will be a net reaction force toward the east, perpendicular to the vertical forces you're considering.

This is basically saying that the rotation encounters friction.

What we probably can't be certain of either way, is whether that net effect could be significant enough to be detectable (even given ideal measurements that we do not have) among the noise of the effects of random local torques during the collisions.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
The best analogy I have come across for describing the collapse (all be it this was for wtc7, but same could apply for towers) is talking about what happens to the supporting properties of a steel column once it has buckled.

Ron Craig (or it may have been Chris Mohr) in his debate with Richard Gage (You can check my YT channel if you want to listen) used the analogy of a drinking straw. When the straw is in tact, it will hold a fair amount of weight above it. As soon as that straw gets a kink in it (a buckle) it will support no weight, and the weight above will collapse at free fall. Now replace the straw with a steel beam; same applies. Once it buckles, it cannot support any significant weight.

How this applied to the towers? Look at the steel columns in the same analogy. As soon as one of them buckles, it cannot hold any weight. What you have is a rapid succession of buckling columns being unable to support the weight above. admitidly, this works better when referring to the perimeter wall of WTC7, but it can also kind of work for the towers.

Hope that helps.
 
Last edited:
As for materials for scale models: I really like spaghetti to play the role of columns :p


The problem is, spaghetti is very elastic at full length. I worked on a design for a progressively collapsing spaghetti tower, but I couldn't get either the numbers or tabletop experiments to work out right. It might work if you used a stronger but less flexible tubular shape (such as bigoli or uncut ziti) for the columns, and increasing the floor masses accordingly.

By the way: I describe a detailed Mythbusters-scale (and roughly Mythbusters-budget) progressive collapse demonstration design here. This was in response to one Truther's "million dollar challenge" but unfortunately the challenger did not follow up with the required pre-conditions. (The Mythbusters have repeatedly stated that they will not test 9/11-related myths on their show.)

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Even if you built an exact scale model of the WTC right down to every beam and bolt. It would never behave the same. The Square Cube law would make the model to contain much less mass, less potential gravitational energy. Even if you went 1/2 scale the mass would be 1/8th of the full size version. A 1/10th version would be useless.
 
I'm not so sure about that one. It seems to me that symmetry suggests otherwise. The leading edge is fracturing supports, and hence losing energy, at a rate directly proportional to the distance it's fallen, as is the trailing edge, so both are experiencing the same average force; hence, no turning moment. Collisions can impart angular momentum in either sense, and I don't really see why one sense would be preferred (as opposed to linear momentum, which will always be preferentially, though not exclusively, directed downwards). It may be possible for the rotation to slow down, speed up, or remain the same, depending on the fine details of the collapse.

Dave

ETA: Saw your edit, Myriad. I think the best answer may be "We can't really be certain either way," which means we can both claim to be right.

There are two reasons why angular velocity decreases as the top part falls into the structure below:

a) The falling mass increases; momentum is the product of mass and velocity (equivalent terms for angular momentum; just keeing it easy).
"Conversation of (angular) momentum" means it stays the same
Mass increases.
In order for (angular) momentum to remain constant, (angular) velocity must decrease

b) The side of the top part that rotates downwards meets the structure below at a greater differential (linear) velocity than the other side, so forces and dissipated energy and momentum would also be slightly higher on that side, slowing the rotation down.




As for materials for scale models: I really like spaghetti to play the role of columns :p

In a first approximation one can see that while hinged the angular velocity(and thus momentum) is based on rotation about that hinge. Once the hinge breaks the center of mass of the upper structure would fall straight down and rotation and angular momentum would be around that point.

There are two components of movement of the upper structure, downward, and rotational after the hinge breaks whereas before it broke rotation vastly dominated its movement.

While hinged the leading (lower) edge is breaking steel and certainly compromising much of the lower levels it encounters. When the hinge breaks that leading edge will (as CoM falls straight down) still have to break relativley intact steel while the other edge is encountering already compromised structure. Thus more 'friction' to work against rotation of the upper structure.

Furthermore as the upper structure now has to rotate about its CoM, that leading edge is moving into the building while the trailing edge is essentially encountering no counter to its direction of rotation due to angular momentum.

Since the rotational velocity was very small and even though the mass was very large, momentum transfer results in less rotation.

Going beyond a first approx one has to take into account the destruction occuring on the upper structure itself. As mass is lost from being a coporeal part of that structure angular momentum is shed into the loose parts. Furthermore the rotation point must move up the structure as CoM changes (similarily as when the hinge broke)
This in itself would impart a flex to the upper structure which would require energy, the source of which is its rotation.

Intuitivley I suspect that the flexure as a result of the change of rotation point might dominate in countering the angular momentum of the upper block.
 
Last edited:
Even if you built an exact scale model of the WTC right down to every beam and bolt. It would never behave the same. The Square Cube law would make the model to contain much less mass, less potential gravitational energy. Even if you went 1/2 scale the mass would be 1/8th of the full size version. A 1/10th version would be useless.

Exactly, if you reduce a linear dimension you would have to adjust volume by the cube of that delta but material strength doesn't change so you have to change material (now CTists cry foul since they cannot fathom this), gravity does not change and cannot be accounted for easily (ie. the above mentioned centrifuge which should be located in a zero g enviroment so that one can account for all acellerations)
 
The problem is, spaghetti is very elastic at full length....

Correct, full length will bend elastically much too far before they fracture. 1/3 of full length comes a lot close already to being instructive.

More to the point: You need to assemble them with lateral bracing - beams and spandrels. Remember, perimeter columns were stacked 3 floors high a piece, so if you brace each spaghetto at 1/3 and 2/3 their height, you are well on your way :)

It might work if you used a stronger but less flexible tubular shape (such as bigoli or uncut ziti) for the columns, ...
I did some simple experiments with bavette a while ago - those are very much like spaghetti with an oval rather than round cross section. Kinda like most core columns which were rectangular :p


I kinda think I remember that bavette/spaghetti even have about the right slenderness (ratio length:thickness) to stand in as WTC columns - I just don't rememeber which (core or perimeter).
 
Sorry Dave! Completely got confused (lack of sleep :-D), thanks everyone some very detailed replies.

I do grasp what's been said and I like the straw analogy as you say once it fails the load it supported would fall at free-fall. Like building 7 I think Dave Thomas said in his more recent debate that potentially some of the collapse actually pulled down on the structure hence why it fell at free-fall or maybe slightly faster!

The main problem I have to try and explain to 'truthers' is why the top section did not topple over. I cannot hope to explain it in half as much technical detail as some here, but I still try.

So as I understand from what you've said, the angular momentum does not vanish, but as it contacts the lower structure, said structure acts as a resistive force against the top section.

The top section, how could it fall over onto the street as 'truthers' say? If it was a rigid block? The centre of mass would have to be shifted laterally a fair bit to get it to topple over right? I'm presuming gravity can act as a lateral force if the bottom structure was horizontal (for example) the top section would effectively slide down it and over the edge. As it happens though it was flat, with many connections and columns sticking out, I've heard the analogy of an upside down basket. So the top section was never going to fall over the side was it?
 
Last edited:
I think a 'slide' would require that there be column support spread between core and perimter, post and beam style.

With columns only at perimeter and core how is anything going to slide? On what will it slide, a tilting floor pan?
 
I think a 'slide' would require that there be column support spread between core and perimter, post and beam style.

With columns only at perimeter and core how is anything going to slide? On what will it slide, a tilting floor pan?

Exactly it would only slide along a relatively flat surface, where as the top section had columns sticking out virtically so that would not occur.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom