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Old 30th July 2012, 02:32 PM   #2321
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
On second thought I'm not responding to any post that uses the word zombie or any variation of it. Zombie is nowhere in the bible and a zombie is generally not considered to be in the same condition (or better) or to have the same personality as the person had before death.
Good Call.
Zombies (bodies coming back from the dead) are a complete work of nonsensical fiction. Any story that relies upon someone coming back from the dead can be easily discounted as silly nonsense.
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Old 30th July 2012, 02:33 PM   #2322
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.

Last edited by DOC; 30th July 2012 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 30th July 2012, 02:39 PM   #2323
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.
really?

Ok, then explain how a person can live within a whale stomach for 3 days?
Be sure to explain:
1.) Where the air the person was breathing came from.
2.) how the individual avoided being digested in the stomach acids.


Feel free to use a diagram of a whale's anatomy to illustrate your argument.
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Old 30th July 2012, 02:40 PM   #2324
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Now show us on the whale where God touched you.
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Old 30th July 2012, 02:41 PM   #2325
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
really?

Ok, then explain how a person can live within a whale stomach for 3 days?
Be sure to explain:
1.) Where the air the person was breathing came from.
2.) how the individual avoided being digested in the stomach acids.


Feel free to use a diagram of a whale's anatomy to illustrate your argument.
If God exists miracles are possible, do you agree with that statement?
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Old 30th July 2012, 02:45 PM   #2326
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible, do you agree with that statement?
Actually, no, I don't.

For reference, I also do not agree with the statement, "If Harry Potter exists, magic is possible."


I would be happy to explain why on both counts.
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Old 30th July 2012, 02:45 PM   #2327
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible, do you agree with that statement?

Yay! Begging the question! Haven't seen that fallacy in, oh, a page.
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Old 30th July 2012, 03:10 PM   #2328
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.
If Jesus was resurrected, zombification is possible. Would you agree with that statement?
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Old 30th July 2012, 03:11 PM   #2329
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
On second thought I'm not responding to any post that uses the word zombie or any variation of it. Zombie is nowhere in the bible and a zombie is generally not considered to be in the same condition (or better) or to have the same personality as the person had before death.
Very well, let's use the language of the Gospel of Matthew (Mt. 27:51 - 53):

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I have the following questions on the passage above:

1) Why didn't Josephus or anyone else - including the other gospel writers - record these things: the curtain of the Holy of Holies torn in two, the earthquake. and dead bodies resurrected, entering Jerusalem and being seen by many?

2) In your opinion, was this resurrection of the bodies of the "saints" (Gr. hagioi, "holy") just temporary, or did they persist in life for a number of days, weeks, months or years?

3) In your opinion, did Matthew interview these resurrected saints, or did the reanimated bodies merely appear to people?
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Old 30th July 2012, 03:24 PM   #2330
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.
Okay, if we accept the possibility there is a God, miracles could happen. The whale episode is only one reason to see the Book of Jonah as fictional. Here are some others:

1) According to Jonah 3:3, Nineveh was so large that it was three days journey in breadth. As an experienced hiker, I can tell you that one can walk 15 miles in a day, making Nineveh 45 miles wide. We have the remains of Nineveh. It is nowhere near that large. It was at most five kilometers long and a bit less than three kilometers wide. Since a kilometer is a bit over six tenths of a mile, Nineveh is about three miles long and under two miles wide. The city described in Jonah 3:3 clearly isn't historical.

2) No Assyrian monarch ever repented either their worship of their gods (particularly Ishtar, patron deity of Nineveh) or their aggressive, brutal behavior. Therefore, Jonah isn't historical.

3) If Nineveh repented, how do we account for the Book of Nahum, which gloats over the demise of the city, saying it's destruction is the result of God's wrath?

Also, I notice that you have not responded to my questions concerning the Book of Job.

Last edited by TimCallahan; 30th July 2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 30th July 2012, 03:47 PM   #2331
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.
This is clear. But it explains exactly nothing and has nothing to do with validating the thread topic.
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Old 30th July 2012, 03:47 PM   #2332
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Now show us on the whale where God touched you.
Good for a chuckle - thanks!
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Old 30th July 2012, 04:59 PM   #2333
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DOC, Why did 20,000 people ignore the earthquake and many christs walking aroung

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
On second thought I'm not responding to any post that uses the word zombie or any variation of it. Zombie is nowhere in the bible and a zombie is generally not considered to be in the same condition (or better) or to have the same personality as the person had before death.
You want to argue about labels? Ok !
The word Christ is in the Bible as a title for Jesus. Jesus rose from a grave and walked around just like the "zombie" saints mentioned in Matthew. So maybe in the bible the word christ can be used instead of zombie.
Still unanswered:
DOC, Why did 20,000 people ignore the earthquake and many christs (dead people rising from graves and walking around) ?
First asked on 17th July 2012 - 14 days and counting DOC!

Or maybe
DOC, Why did 20,000 people ignore the earthquake and many-bodies-of-the-saints-who-had-fallen-asleep-were-raised,-and coming-out-of-the-tombs-after-his-resurrection-they-went-into-the-holy-city-and-appeared-to-many?
First asked on 17th July 2012 - 14 days and counting DOC!

P.S.
Where in the NT does it state that the "christs" that are mentioned in Matthew were not in the same condition as before death?
Where in the NT does it state that the "christs" that are mentioned in Matthew did not have the same personality as before death?
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Old 30th July 2012, 05:50 PM   #2334
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Use words that are in the dictionary and I'll answer it.
That's a little petty, don't you think?


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.
If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground.
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Old 30th July 2012, 06:37 PM   #2335
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.
Why? Cosmologists can offer plausible explanations which accord with our current understanding of the properties of matter and energy. But our current, or indeed any, understanding of biology precludes survival inside the stomach of a large living sea creature for three days.

When you say "easier time believing" you really mean "easier time visualising". We can create a picture in our heads of a person swallowed and later disgorged by a whale, not because it is possible, but because we are familiar with the things present in the story, like people and whales. But we can't create adequate mental images of billions and trillions of atoms produced from pure energy, even though it can be shown - to the intellect, not to the visual imagination - that such transformations do take place.

To confuse "being able to picture to myself" with "being able to believe" is an infantile error.

ETA Or, to be more precise, to believe things only if we can create mental pictures of them, is such an error.

Last edited by Craig B; 30th July 2012 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 30th July 2012, 06:52 PM   #2336
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.
Small problem - you are wrong .
It is "all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars" came from the mass of 10 billion trillion stars squeezed into a volume smaller than that of an atom.
All of the mass of the universe existed from the moment of the Big Bang.

It is also a false comparison. There is physical evidence for the Big Bang: What is the evidence for the Big Bang?

There is only a fairytale about someone living in a whale for 3 days.
There are only fairytales about people being raised from the dead.
The evidence is that these events are impossible. Put someone in the stomach of a whale and they die and are digested. If someone dies then they stay dead.
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Old 30th July 2012, 10:34 PM   #2337
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.
Boy, would your mind have been blown by Lawrence Krauss's talk on The Future, and Nothing at TAM.

Here's a version from a couple of years ago.
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I AGREE
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Old 31st July 2012, 12:32 AM   #2338
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Originally Posted by DOC
If God exists miracles are possible, do you agree with that statement?
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Actually, no, I don't.

For reference, I also do not agree with the statement, "If Harry Potter exists, magic is possible."..
So then I assume you don't believe a God who created the universe out of nothing can do what a human of today would consider is a miracle?

Last edited by DOC; 31st July 2012 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 31st July 2012, 12:37 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So then I assume you don't believe a God who created the universe out of nothing can do what a human of today would consider is a miracle?
Care to get back to the topic DOC? Creation of the universe is OT and OT, this thread is about NT
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Old 31st July 2012, 01:06 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So then I assume you don't believe a God who created the universe out of nothing can do what a human of today would consider is a miracle?
Yes, in the same way that I think that a pig that had wings would be able to fly. But there is no such pig, and there is no such god. What is your argument intended to establish? If I thought that god could do a big miraculous thing, would I then think that he could do a smaller miraculous thing. Well, yes, but so what? I don't believe such a being exists in the first place!
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Old 31st July 2012, 05:14 AM   #2341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOC
If God exists miracles are possible, do you agree with that statement?
With statements/questions such as this, DOC is clearly making true debate on "evidence" impossible. At least with him.

Any evidence indicating that an allegation of his is impossible is rendered pointless - "miraculous" covers everything.

Jonah's story? Clearly God could have either made a miracle "oxygen bubble" using a holy miracle force field. Or slowed Jonah's metabolism so that no respiration was needed and a "miracle membrane" protected him from the digestive juices.

I think some here underestimate how all-encompassing DOC's miracles are. They are certainly powerful enough to render dialog with him pointless.
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Old 31st July 2012, 05:25 AM   #2342
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
if there was so much resurrection going on in the heady days of the bronze age then why is the zombification of the alleged Jesus at all significant?


Use words that are in the dictionary and I'll answer it.


I'll have my mate Aberhaten get right on it.
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Old 31st July 2012, 05:47 AM   #2343
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So then I assume you don't believe a God who created the universe out of nothing can do what a human of today would consider is a miracle?
DOC.
You're distracted by dictionary definitions and whale bellies rather than answering my question.

And the Big Bang Theory.
Really.
What does Sheldon Cooper have that I don't?
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Old 31st July 2012, 06:22 AM   #2344
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
DOC.
You're distracted by dictionary definitions and whale bellies rather than answering my question.

And the Big Bang Theory.
Really.
What does Sheldon Cooper have that I don't?
A Green Lantern t-shirt?
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Old 31st July 2012, 06:33 AM   #2345
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Name some fiction in Judea anytime up to a 1000 before Christ that was written as fiction, and is not just your opinion that it is fiction.


Seriously, do you even remember when you started this ridiculous line of argument in the first place? And how it was almost immediately shown to be false?

As luck would have it, I do. It was in November, 2010.

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Originally Posted by DOC View Post

Some skepics might say well the NT writers were just writing an historical novel. Well, there are many problems with this theory.
Originally Posted by DOC
1) There is no record of historical novels in Palestine during that era. In fact there are no records of novels at all (in that era of no paper). And some skeptics want us to believe all of the sudden 4 historical novels are written.
That is a lie, and you are a liar.

Originally Posted by Gandalfs Beard View Post
This is another example of you trying to transplant your non-fiction reading, modern Christian ideology into Biblical Judea.

Some Ancient Jewish Novels:

Greek Esther
Susanna, Bel, and the Serpent
Tobit
Judith
The Marriage and Conversion of Aseneth

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/oso...51428/toc.html

As usual, way to demonstrate your complete ignorance of your chosen topic DOC. D'oh

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So you lied. And it's "out there for everyone to see." Thoughts?


You've been digging the same hole for nearly two years. How deep are you planning to go?
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Old 31st July 2012, 06:43 AM   #2346
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post

You've been digging the same hole for nearly two years. How deep are you planning to go?
If you listen very carefully, can you not hear a scraping noise under your feet?
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Old 31st July 2012, 06:46 AM   #2347
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So then I assume you don't believe a God who created the universe out of nothing can do what a human of today would consider is a miracle?
Now you're changing the story, you asked "If God exists miracles are possible"
Not "If god exists things we call miracles are possible" These are not equivalent statements. And this exposes why your question is inherently dishonest.

Let's look at my harry potter example statement:
"If Harry Potter exists, magic is possible"

1.) there is no evidence that Harry potter, as described in the stories, is real.
2.) There is no evidence of magic being real.
3.) Harry Potter and Magic are ill defined concepts.


As such, the "if then" statement is completely meaningless as its terms are ill defined AND have no supporting evidence for their reality.

Now, look at your statement:
If God exists miracles are possible
1.) There is no evidence for a god.
2.) There is no evidence for miracles
3.) The terms used are ill defined and as such too flexible to be reliable. (You just attempted to shift the meaning of miracle)

As such, your If then statement is completely meaningless.
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Old 31st July 2012, 08:18 AM   #2348
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.
But he/she/it doesn't exist, so neither do miracles.
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Old 31st July 2012, 09:20 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by Multivac View Post
But he/she/it doesn't exist, so neither do miracles.
I think that's only the case if DOC had said "Iff God exists miracles are possible."
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Old 31st July 2012, 09:23 AM   #2350
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I think that's only the case if DOC had said "Iff God exists miracles are possible."

Nerd!
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Old 31st July 2012, 09:51 AM   #2351
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Nerd!
I'll take that as a compliment.
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Old 31st July 2012, 10:20 AM   #2352
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Still unanswered:
DOC, Why did 20,000 people ignore the earthquake and zombie hordes?
First asked on 17th July 2012 - 13 days and counting DOC!


I should get to this by Wednesday.


How is it that you don't have an answer for such an obvious question?

Are you saying that it had never occurred to you to question this before?

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had read this story before you were asked about it here, did you really say to yourself at the time, "Seems legit"?
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Old 31st July 2012, 10:53 AM   #2353
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
All of these are works of fiction before the gospels were written in the area of where the gospels were written.


I said in Judea, which one of those were written in Judea?


Setting aside that you've been given other examples which satisfy your demand, what is the reason for this condition?

Are you trying to claim that fiction was the fashion everywhere in the ancient world except Judea?

Does it occur to you at all that this is an even more bizarre claim than that there was no fiction at all in those days?
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Old 31st July 2012, 11:55 AM   #2354
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I should get to this by Wednesday.


On second thought I'm not responding to any post that uses the word zombie or any variation of it. Zombie is nowhere in the bible . . .


If you're going to get all thingy about only using words that are in the Bible then we'll be needing to restrict the thread to Aramaic and Koine Greek.

How do you reckon that will pan out?


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
. . . and a zombie is generally not considered to be in the same condition (or better) or to have the same personality as the person had before death.


And your evidence that the alleged Jesus' personality was the same after 36 hours of deadification is _____________________________ ?

Which reminds me.





Since you've got Wednesday free you might like to have a little handwave at this puzzler.
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Old 31st July 2012, 12:15 PM   #2355
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DOC: You challenged posters on this thread to find a single work of fiction written in Judea from 1,000 BCE (or B.C., if you prefer) to the time of Jesus. A number of us have responded quite specifically. You have not really responded to these posts. Ignoring for the moment Job and Jonah, which I see as homiletic fiction, thus, still quite valid as moral teachings, the demonstrably unhistorical nature of Jonah and Esther and indications of the late authorship of Ruth; let's concentrate on the following:

Judith
Tobit
Susanna and the Elders
Bel and Dragon
Marriage of Asenath

None of these are Part of either the Protestant Canon or the Masoretic Text. The Marriage of Asenath isn't even part of the more inclusive Catholic canon. All are demonstrably fictional. All fit the time scale you imposed. What is your response?

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Old 31st July 2012, 03:30 PM   #2356
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.


If dilithium crystals exist FTL is possible.
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Old 31st July 2012, 03:34 PM   #2357
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And I have a much easier time believing someone could live in a whale for 3 days or be raised from the dead than I have believing all the matter in the 10 billion trillion stars came from something with no matter smaller than an atom.


Of course you do, and that's why you'll always be as wrong as you were when you first claimed to be able to present evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Maybe wronger, come to think of it, since I'm sure most of the stuff you don't know about the Big Bang is what you've unlearned since this thread started.
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Old 31st July 2012, 07:08 PM   #2358
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So then I assume you don't believe a God who created the universe out of nothing can do what a human of today would consider is a miracle?
So I assume this means that you don't believe Jesus was resurrected since you don't believe in zombification?
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Old 31st July 2012, 10:50 PM   #2359
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
...Why did 20,000 people ignore the earthquake and many-bodies-of-the-saints-who-had-fallen-asleep-were-raised,-and coming-out-of-the-tombs-after-his-resurrection-they-went-into-the-holy-city-and-appeared-to-many?...
I'll get to this as time permits, and who are the 20,000 you are talking about?
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Old 31st July 2012, 10:53 PM   #2360
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
DOC: You challenged posters on this thread to find a single work of fiction written in Judea from 1,000 BCE (or B.C., if you prefer) to the time of Jesus. A number of us have responded quite specifically. You have not really responded to these posts. Ignoring for the moment Job and Jonah, which I see as homiletic fiction...
Your opinion is noted but the historical figure Jesus implies he didn't think it was fiction when He talks of Jonah.

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