Stephen Greer Attempts to Stiff Supporters With Possible ET Stiff

Athyrio · 4th August 2012, 04:02 PM

The Woo sites have been drooling lately about the First Contact possibilities that the year 2012 has to offer, a lot of those dates for August, and today, the 4th, was supposed to be a big one too.

Stephen Greer's blog has been out there for a week but I just stumbled across this where Greer says they may actually have an ET or EBE stiff:

Quote:

There is a chance that we may be able to include in the film “Sirius” the scientific testing of a possible Extraterrestrial Biological Entity (EBE) that has been recovered and is deceased. This EBE is in the possession of a cooperative institute desiring further scientific evaluation of the possible ET. We cannot reveal at this time the location of this being or the name of the person or persons who possess it.

Dr. Jan Bravo- who is a STAR Board member and a fellow Emergency Physician- and I have actually visited the group that possesses this EBE and have personally and professionally examined the being. It is indeed an actual deceased body, and most certainly is not plastic or man-made. It has a head, 2 arms and 2 legs and is humanoid . We have seen and examined X-Rays of the being. Its anatomy however is not homo sapien (modern human) or any known hominid (predecessors to humans).

And here comes the pitch:

Quote:

If you can assist further with funding the campaign for Sirius we will attempt to carry out this scientific inquiry, however daunting it may be. We are currently investigating what these costs will be, but they will certainly be in the tens of thousands of dollars and perhaps more.

I guess he can always say later "we didn't quite get enough money" to perform the proper testing.

Stray Cat · 4th August 2012, 04:13 PM

Yeah, the conman Steven Greed is going to disclose information about free energy as soon as he raises a few hundred thousand dollars to make a propaganda movie.

Well durrrr!!!.... just make some free energy and you'll be the richest man on the planet, then you won't need to con the gullible into forking out their hard earned cash to support your ego driven drivel.

Orphia Nay · 4th August 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Shadowy classified projects would prefer for us not to proceed, just as they wished that we not proceed with DisclosureProject.org in 2001. But we did. And we are here to tell the tale because millions of people knew what we were doing well before that historic event.

You the public are our shield. You are our protectors, along with providence. While the testing will be confidential and done very discreetly until results are known- the fact that we are pursuing this evidence must be known by millions of people in order for us to be protected. Tell everyone you know-now.

If these shadowy classified projects are so big and powerful as UFO nuts claim, why didn't the alien get discovered by them in the first place?

If I was going to hoax an ET body, I'd definitely share it with some daft bleever like Greer.

RobertoDebunker · 4th August 2012, 08:35 PM

Bjorn,

Thanks for posting this. I saw Greer's pitch for funds, and wrote about it in the news items on my Bad UFOs Blog, but I didn't see that part about him seeing the Genuine Real ET.

Did you know that Greer has his very own 'familiar spirit' ET? I heard him lecture at the International UFO Congress in Arizona this past February. I wrote,

Greer showed a photo of Bijou, an ambassador from the Andromeda Galaxy whose acquaintance was made in one of CSETI's desert Skywatches at Joshua Tree, CA. Bijou has now become like a sort of pet alien for Greer, often playing peek-a-boo when it's least expected. It takes a great deal of imagination to see Bijou in the original photo at left, even after they have helpfully cut away his outline (right) - more imagination than I have, I'm afraid. Greer also has equally-fuzzy photos of blips that he says are alien spaceships, many of them only partially materialized in our dimension. Every time they go out, says Greer, they spot UFOs. Every time. This confirms my suspicion that no matter what light they see in the sky, they think it's a UFO. [This thing won't let me post URLs, but this is from my BadUFOs.com posting on March 1, 2012. I also show Greer's photos of Bijou.]

Robert Sheaffer

Athyrio · 4th August 2012, 09:05 PM

I will give you the link here, and let others read of what you are speaking.

Gawd, I thought Streiber was dead - the man's only three years older than I am as it turns out. Still syphoning from the youngblood apparently.

Back to "Bijou". No, I had never heard this but I have not really paid any attention to Greer in the past 10 years. What some people will do for a buck but I still love to see some competent fools and their money parted, hopefully to learn a lesson.

Robrob · 4th August 2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

We cannot reveal at this time the location of this being or the name of the person or persons who possess it.

Tells you all you need to know.

Orphia Nay · 4th August 2012, 09:35 PM

An earlier thread on Greer:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=166554

BTW, love your thread title, Bjorn!

RobertoDebunker · 5th August 2012, 08:56 AM

Strieber is very much alive. In fact, just a few weeks back I attended a MUFON mini-symposium in which Strieber spoke at length about the miraculous "alien implant" he supposedly carries in his left ear. Because I was seated directly behind him, I took the opportunity to examine, and photograph, his left ear. Looks like a perfectly normal ear, no sign of any implant, swelling, surgery scars, etc. that he claims. I have the photos on my Bad UFOs Blog posting of July 25 (and I think I have almost enough postings to be able to post URLs, soon!).

Robert

ufology · 18th August 2012, 08:45 AM

This reminds me of the Raelian human cloning debacle. When independent scientists offered to verify the truth of the claim, there was some excuse why it would not be permitted and no actual evidence has been forthcoming. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Greer has had similar offers to do DNA testing, but for some reason or another has declined the offers in favor acquiring donations.

Burning Beard · 20th August 2012, 03:58 PM

I haven't been to the Disclosure Project site for a while so checked in for a quick looky-see.

I went to "News" then clicked on the "Upcoming events" link.

Ambassador trainings! I clicked the details link and wow...

How to make Contact with ET civilisations using the CSETI CE-5 protocols and how to really become an Ambassador to the Universe! (Note how they spell Contact with a capital C?)

$2500 - for people who have not been to a prior Ambassador training, including materials and lifetime CSETI membership.

$995 - for people who have already attended at least 1 Ambassador training, but no materials will be sent. (note: a maximum of 5 people may attend at the discounted rate)

For the Mt. Shasta training the fee for previous attendees is $1195 due to a facility fee. $1250 – a special fee for full time students under the age of 26.

ufology · 20th August 2012, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I haven't been to the Disclosure Project site for a while so checked in for a quick looky-see. I went to "News" then clicked on the "Upcoming events" link. Ambassador trainings! I clicked the details link and wow ... How to make Contact with ET civilisations using the CSETI CE-5 protocols and how to really become an Ambassador to the Universe! (Note how they spell Contact with a capital C?)

$2500 - for people who have not been to a prior Ambassador training, including materials and lifetime CSETI membership.

$995 - for people who have already attended at least 1 Ambassador training, but no materials will be sent. (note: a maximum of 5 people may attend at the discounted rate)

For the Mt. Shasta training the fee for previous attendees is $1195 due to a facility fee. $1250 – a special fee for full time students under the age of 26.

The CSETI CE-5 Protocols seem like a rather convoluted way of trying to communicate with aliens. If anything unusual happens it would probably be pure coincidence. Wouldn't that be something if they were out doing this seemingly ridiculous excercise and some kind of UFO ( alien craft ) just happened to come along? I wonder what they ( the aliens ) would think?

I Am He · 20th August 2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

The CSETI CE-5 Protocols seem like a rather convoluted way of trying to communicate with aliens. If anything unusual happens it would probably be pure coincidence. Wouldn't that be something if they were out doing this seemingly ridiculous excercise and some kind of UFO ( alien craft ) just happened to come along? I wonder what they ( the aliens ) would think?

UFO (alien craft) ? A UFO is an unknown and a craft could mean a lot of things, like a boat or a plane etc. So please stop with this nonsense please.

I Am He

Newbeak · 25th November 2012, 04:48 PM

Okay,we accept Greer is a genuine gold plated fruitcake,but what do you make of the witnesses who held top secret clearances while in the government service who claim first hand experience with alien craft and/or aliens? If it were a dozen,I could accept they were delusional or loony toons,but there were many more than that at Greer's disclosure news conferences.

Kid Eager · 25th November 2012, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Newbeak

Okay,we accept Greer is a genuine gold plated fruitcake,but what do you make of the witnesses who held top secret clearances while in the government service who claim first hand experience with alien craft and/or aliens? If it were a dozen,I could accept they were delusional or loony toons,but there were many more than that at Greer's disclosure news conferences.

...and we know this, how?

Newbeak · 25th November 2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

...and we know this, how?

Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded? It should be easy to confirm they did serve in the military,and some,such as Charles Halt,are known to have served,if only due to all the publicity surrounding the Rendlesham Forest incident.

Sherman Bay · 25th November 2012, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Newbeak

Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded?

Yes. The lure of fame and fortune is a powerful attraction, especially if you need no proof of what you claim and have none anyway. It's fantasy camp!

Newbeak · 25th November 2012, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

Yes. The lure of fame and fortune is a powerful attraction, especially if you need no proof of what you claim and have none anyway. It's fantasy camp!

I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy.

arthwollipot · 25th November 2012, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Newbeak

I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy.

And thus does a lack of evidence magically transform into evidence for a cover-up.

ufology · 25th November 2012, 05:53 PM

According to author Leslie Kean in her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record There have been ranking military people come forward with testimony. I think some of them may have also appeared at Greer's early disclosure sessions. Should we believe it all? I don't think so. Should we dismiss it all? Without evidence that witnesses are lying or misinformed about everything, it would seem irresponsible to level such accusations. This is the same thing we're left with time and time again. So the question is: How many such cases does it take before we start to take seemingly credible witnesses seriously? 500? 1500? 2500? 10,000? More?

Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head.

ufology · 25th November 2012, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Newbeak

I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy.

It's not unreasonable to think that when there are leaks that there is also some damage control. What is unreasonable is to believe Sherman Bay's suggestion that "fame and fortune" are in store for those who come forward. Very few people make a living doing ufology. Most have to pay out of their own pockets to do research. A few will become well known to those interested in the subject, but real fame ( like superstar fame ) is some kind of myth. I've never seen it.

StankApe · 25th November 2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head

i would do exactly that, because that is exactly what has taken place.

the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

the sheer distances involved make the probability slim, the fact that our radio waves have only been travelling for 150 years makes it slimmer (narrows the available worlds that have life to within a 75 year window (they'd have to hear it then immediately head this way at the speed of light).

Not to mention the energy required.....

I know what you will say though "ALIEN PHYSICS!!!"

mike3 · 25th November 2012, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Björn Toulouse

The Woo sites have been drooling lately about the First Contact possibilities that the year 2012 has to offer, a lot of those dates for August, and today, the 4th, was supposed to be a big one too.

Stephen Greer's blog has been out there for a week but I just stumbled across this where Greer says they may actually have an ET or EBE stiff:

And here comes the pitch:

I guess he can always say later "we didn't quite get enough money" to perform the proper testing.

It wouldn't take a lot of "testing". They could just SHOW it to a scientist at a big-name U. (Heck, ANY U. would do, I'd think.)

No money required. Just SHOW it -- SHOW you have something REAL -- then if you do need money you'll be able to get it easily as people will have GENUINE reason to support you.

But they don't do this.

Therefore, we can conclude they likely do not have what they say they have.

mike3 · 25th November 2012, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

According to author Leslie Kean in her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record There have been ranking military people come forward with testimony. I think some of them may have also appeared at Greer's early disclosure sessions. Should we believe it all? I don't think so. Should we dismiss it all? Without evidence that witnesses are lying or misinformed about everything, it would seem irresponsible to level such accusations. This is the same thing we're left with time and time again. So the question is: How many such cases does it take before we start to take seemingly credible witnesses seriously? 500? 1500? 2500? 10,000? More?

Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head.

It doesn't matter if you have a hundred, a thousand, a million, or even a BILLION anecdotes -- it STILL isn't scientific evidence. It has nothing to do with the quantity of information, rather it has to do with the nature of the information.

StankApe · 25th November 2012, 06:10 PM

oddly enough mike3, this is the EXACT same thing I say to footers all the time. Yet they hand wave it away by saying" the govt won't allow Universities to deal with such things"

Kid Eager · 25th November 2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Newbeak

Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded? It should be easy to confirm they did serve in the military,and some,such as Charles Halt,are known to have served,if only due to all the publicity surrounding the Rendlesham Forest incident.

again, we know this, how? There's a few hurdles here -

that the people who claim to have had a high security clearance did so
that the holding of the high security clearance is in any way relevant to the claims that they are making
that the holding of a high security clearance in any way vests the claimant in an automatically higher level of credibility
that the claimant is telling the truth
that the claimant's truthful interpretation is actually what happened.

mike3 · 25th November 2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

It's not unreasonable to think that when there are leaks that there is also some damage control. What is unreasonable is to believe Sherman Bay's suggestion that "fame and fortune" are in store for those who come forward. Very few people make a living doing ufology. Most have to pay out of their own pockets to do research. A few will become well known to those interested in the subject, but real fame ( like superstar fame ) is some kind of myth. I've never seen it.

Only because NOBODY HAS PROVIDED SOLID EVIDENCE YET. If you had a piece of HARD, undeniable EVIDENCE of an alien encounter, then you WOULD be famous, famous like you wouldn't believe! It would be THE greatest scientific discovery of the century, perhaps even the millennium, and at least one of the greatest in the history of humanity!

mike3 · 25th November 2012, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

Yes. The lure of fame and fortune is a powerful attraction, especially if you need no proof of what you claim and have none anyway. It's fantasy camp!

The lure of fame and fortune is what shows this to be likely bollox. Because if they DID have something FOR REAL, then they would TRULY be able to get fame and fortune from it, and so they'd release it... and they don't, but instead start "begging".

Sherman Bay · 25th November 2012, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

According to author Leslie Kean in her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record There have been ranking military people come forward with testimony. I think some of them may have also appeared at Greer's early disclosure sessions. Should we believe it all? I don't think so. Should we dismiss it all? Without evidence that witnesses are lying or misinformed about everything, it would seem irresponsible to level such accusations. This is the same thing we're left with time and time again. So the question is: How many such cases does it take before we start to take seemingly credible witnesses seriously? 500? 1500? 2500? 10,000? More?

No amount of "credible" witnesses will replace solid evidence, especially those who seem to suddenly "recall" incredible events from 60 years ago, unaltered by 60 years of news reports, chat rooms and gossip. Wish my memory was that good.

Quote:

Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head.

{Raises hand and stands up.} Me! Me! I will! They're all liars and/or nuts!

Originally Posted by Newbeak

I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy.

Yep, that's how it works, fersure. Our coverups are impregnable and impenetrable.

ufology · 25th November 2012, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable.

Quote:

The sheer distances involved make the probability slim, the fact that our radio waves have only been traveling for 150 years makes it slimmer (narrows the available worlds that have life to within a 75 year window (they'd have to hear it then immediately head this way at the speed of light).

Not to mention the energy required ... I know what you will say though "ALIEN PHYSICS!!!"

There is nothing unscientific about interstellar travel. Lower speeds and extended travel time may not be that big a problem for a species with an unlimited lifespan. It could conceivably be done with technology only modestly superior to our present day. No "Alien Physics" required.

fromdownunder · 25th November 2012, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head.

There have been reportedly tens of thousands of Elvis sightings since his death. So if you were in a room with 3,000 credible witnesses who claim to have seen Elvis since he died, would you accept that he is still alive? How many Elvis claims would you need to be convinced of this?

Norm

StankApe · 25th November 2012, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable.

They don't count when it comes to proving an extraordinary claim. They don't count when proving a new species (even a new kind of mundane critter like a frog, still need a body ) they don't count when proving a new theory about the Universe. (the math's have to be there to back it up)

so no, a bunch of people making claims is NOT evidence. They are all liars, mistaken or crazy. That's the null hypothesis. You must back up their claims with facts, hard,verifiable evidence. You have none.

There is nothing unscientific about interstellar travel. Lower speeds and extended travel time may not be that big a problem for a species with an unlimited lifespan. It could conceivably be done with technology only modestly superior to our present day. No "Alien Physics" required.

What evidence do you have for this long life span alien life form? Or are you just shifting thing around ? Starting with a solution then shoehorning a problem to fit it isn't science at all. It's daydreaming, speculation, malarky.

Plus you haven't addressed the problem of "who knows we are here?" do you know how many star systems are visible from earth? They would have to have heard us, then located us, then flown here.

BTW: long interstellar travel doesn't work unless you are claiming these aliens blindly stumbled into earth. Cuz how else would the know we were here but with our radio wave emissions? So, unless you are saying they live in the next star system on the left, (and left the week after they heard our transmissions) they couldn't have made it here yet with this slow,interstellar travel you speak of.

RoboTimbo · 25th November 2012, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

[font=Arial][size=3]Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable.[/size][/font]

...in courts of law ( triers of fact ) where hundreds of credible witnesses testified to witchcraft. Were they all lying and/or deluded? These were upstanding members of the community.

Quote:

[font=Arial][size=3]There is nothing unscientific about interstellar travel. Lower speeds and extended travel time may not be that big a problem for a species with an unlimited lifespan. It could conceivably be done with technology only modestly superior to our present day. No "Alien Physics" required.[/size][/font]

There is nothing unscientific about witchcraft, no "Magic" required, just physics we don't yet understand.

So, ufology, do you now believe in witchcraft and witches? It's your same reasoning. If not, why not?

By the way, it's also the same argument you ran like a rabbit from in the moderated thread.

GeeMack · 25th November 2012, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by ufology

[font=Arial][size=3]Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable.[/size][/font]

No, that's not how science works. Merely proclaiming that anecdotes constitute evidence doesn't qualify as a rational argument. It may help for you to take a first level science course at your community college or an adult education program in your area. What has never helped your persistently wrong arguments is just guessing whatever the hell you think makes your belief real. Do note how that strategy has resulted in failure time after time.

GeeMack · 25th November 2012, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

What evidence do you have for this long life span alien life form? Or are you just shifting thing around ? Starting with a solution then shoehorning a problem to fit it isn't science at all. It's daydreaming, speculation, malarky.

You understand ufology's position perfectly.

ufology · 25th November 2012, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

What evidence do you have for this long life span alien life form? Or are you just shifting thing around ? Starting with a solution then shoehorning a problem to fit it isn't science at all. It's daydreaming, speculation, malarky.

Plus you haven't addressed the problem of "who knows we are here?" do you know how many star systems are visible from earth? They would have to have heard us, then located us, then flown here.

BTW: long interstellar travel doesn't work unless you are claiming these aliens blindly stumbled into earth. Cuz how else would the know we were here but with our radio wave emissions? So, unless you are saying they live in the next star system on the left, (and left the week after they heard our transmissions) they couldn't have made it here yet with this slow,interstellar travel you speak of.

Perhaps I should have stated that I'm not making any claim to be doing science here. We're just having a friendly discussion about possibilities. Long life spans are biologically possible. For example Turritopsis nutricula, the immortal jellyfish, is known to be the longest living creature which could live on forever without dying of old age ... more here

Regarding knowing Earth is here. We have detected planets around other stars with our own instruments without having first received intelligent signals. We figured out the "Goldilocks Zone" so assuming that physics are pretty much the same everywhere, a look at the Sun from light years away could reveal Earth is here long before our radio waves or even humans were here. So if they set out to get here 1500 years ago, that makes over 500 G type stars they could have come from at only one third light speed.

And of course, even if we dismiss long lifespans, we can still invoke multi-generation vessels. None of this is scientifically impossible.

StankApe · 25th November 2012, 11:10 PM

"only" one third light sped is amazingly fast, I don't even know if you could accelerate to that speed in that time without killing everyone (1500 yrs)

pakeha · 26th November 2012, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by ufology

Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable. ...

That's a good point, ufology.
Still, your examples include "..meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and ...in evaluating clinical trials."

These are all events or phenomena we already know exist.
Interstellar visiters, however, fall into rather a different category, as RoboTimbo pointed out:

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

...in courts of law ( triers of fact ) where hundreds of credible witnesses testified to witchcraft. Were they all lying and/or deluded? These were upstanding members of the community. ...

It may be OT, but I'm currently reading La Historia de la Brujería en España ((The History of Witchcraft in Spain) with lots of records from the trials.
Curiously enough, the Holy Office ruled that in general eyewitness testimony was not to be given any weight in a witchcraft trial; even recommending no torture be applied to the accused to extract a confession. Their reasoning was that the 'witches' were clearly deluded and mentally ill.

LTC8K6 · 26th November 2012, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Newbeak

Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded? It should be easy to confirm they did serve in the military,and some,such as Charles Halt,are known to have served,if only due to all the publicity surrounding the Rendlesham Forest incident.

I don't think I'd use COL Halt as an example...

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham.htm

Bikewer · 26th November 2012, 06:34 AM

For the life of me, I can't recall where I saw this little experiment... Perhaps it was one of those older Randi documentaries? At any rate, they put a "plant" into a group of folks who were fond of going out into the desert for UFO-watching sessions.
Everyone had telescopes and cameras and binoculars, and were intently studying the night sky.
The plant told folks he was seeing something, and pointed off in a vague direction. Soon, others joined in, and then almost the whole group, peering intently at the area designated, said that they too could see the UFO.....
What with memory editing and such, I have no doubt that if you asked the people in this group if they had seen a UFO a couple of years later, they would all reply in the affirmative.

Just as the crowd of people interviewed at Mudjugore would all claim they had seen the large crucifix on the hill spin around. (because one poor deluded lady said it was, and everyone else joined in.) Camera on the crucifix the whole time... No spinning.

Croydon Bob · 26th November 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

I don't think I'd use COL Halt as an example...

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham.htm

Thanks, that's a useful link.

My recollection is that more recently Halt has started telling far more exaggerated versions of the story. A common occurence amongst attention seekers.

4th August 2012, 04:02 PM	#1
Athyrio Hipster Doofus Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nutsack, FL Posts: 2,502	Stephen Greer Attempts to Stiff Supporters With Possible ET Stiff The Woo sites have been drooling lately about the First Contact possibilities that the year 2012 has to offer, a lot of those dates for August, and today, the 4th, was supposed to be a big one too. Stephen Greer's blog has been out there for a week but I just stumbled across this where Greer says they may actually have an ET or EBE stiff: Quote: There is a chance that we may be able to include in the film “Sirius” the scientific testing of a possible Extraterrestrial Biological Entity (EBE) that has been recovered and is deceased. This EBE is in the possession of a cooperative institute desiring further scientific evaluation of the possible ET. We cannot reveal at this time the location of this being or the name of the person or persons who possess it. Dr. Jan Bravo- who is a STAR Board member and a fellow Emergency Physician- and I have actually visited the group that possesses this EBE and have personally and professionally examined the being. It is indeed an actual deceased body, and most certainly is not plastic or man-made. It has a head, 2 arms and 2 legs and is humanoid . We have seen and examined X-Rays of the being. Its anatomy however is not homo sapien (modern human) or any known hominid (predecessors to humans). And here comes the pitch: Quote: If you can assist further with funding the campaign for Sirius we will attempt to carry out this scientific inquiry, however daunting it may be. We are currently investigating what these costs will be, but they will certainly be in the tens of thousands of dollars and perhaps more. I guess he can always say later "we didn't quite get enough money" to perform the proper testing.
	__________________ Knowledge is good.... Emil Faber

4th August 2012, 04:13 PM	#2
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,829	Yeah, the conman Steven Greed is going to disclose information about free energy as soon as he raises a few hundred thousand dollars to make a propaganda movie. Well durrrr!!!.... just make some free energy and you'll be the richest man on the planet, then you won't need to con the gullible into forking out their hard earned cash to support your ego driven drivel.
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,829	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane!

4th August 2012, 08:35 PM	#4
RobertoDebunker New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 20	Bjorn, Thanks for posting this. I saw Greer's pitch for funds, and wrote about it in the news items on my Bad UFOs Blog, but I didn't see that part about him seeing the Genuine Real ET. Did you know that Greer has his very own 'familiar spirit' ET? I heard him lecture at the International UFO Congress in Arizona this past February. I wrote, Greer showed a photo of Bijou, an ambassador from the Andromeda Galaxy whose acquaintance was made in one of CSETI's desert Skywatches at Joshua Tree, CA. Bijou has now become like a sort of pet alien for Greer, often playing peek-a-boo when it's least expected. It takes a great deal of imagination to see Bijou in the original photo at left, even after they have helpfully cut away his outline (right) - more imagination than I have, I'm afraid. Greer also has equally-fuzzy photos of blips that he says are alien spaceships, many of them only partially materialized in our dimension. Every time they go out, says Greer, they spot UFOs. Every time. This confirms my suspicion that no matter what light they see in the sky, they think it's a UFO. [This thing won't let me post URLs, but this is from my BadUFOs.com posting on March 1, 2012. I also show Greer's photos of Bijou.] Robert Sheaffer
RobertoDebunker New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 20

4th August 2012, 09:05 PM	#5
Athyrio Hipster Doofus Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nutsack, FL Posts: 2,502	I will give you the link here, and let others read of what you are speaking. Gawd, I thought Streiber was dead - the man's only three years older than I am as it turns out. Still syphoning from the youngblood apparently. Back to "Bijou". No, I had never heard this but I have not really paid any attention to Greer in the past 10 years. What some people will do for a buck but I still love to see some competent fools and their money parted, hopefully to learn a lesson.
	__________________ Knowledge is good.... Emil Faber

4th August 2012, 09:23 PM	#6
Robrob Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5,497	Quote: We cannot reveal at this time the location of this being or the name of the person or persons who possess it. Tells you all you need to know.
Robrob Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5,497

4th August 2012, 06:32 PM	#3
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 44,286	Quote: Shadowy classified projects would prefer for us not to proceed, just as they wished that we not proceed with DisclosureProject.org in 2001. But we did. And we are here to tell the tale because millions of people knew what we were doing well before that historic event. You the public are our shield. You are our protectors, along with providence. While the testing will be confidential and done very discreetly until results are known- the fact that we are pursuing this evidence must be known by millions of people in order for us to be protected. Tell everyone you know-now. If these shadowy classified projects are so big and powerful as UFO nuts claim, why didn't the alien get discovered by them in the first place? If I was going to hoax an ET body, I'd definitely share it with some daft bleever like Greer.

4th August 2012, 09:35 PM	#7
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 44,286	An earlier thread on Greer: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=166554 BTW, love your thread title, Bjorn!

5th August 2012, 08:56 AM	#8
RobertoDebunker New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 20	Strieber is very much alive. In fact, just a few weeks back I attended a MUFON mini-symposium in which Strieber spoke at length about the miraculous "alien implant" he supposedly carries in his left ear. Because I was seated directly behind him, I took the opportunity to examine, and photograph, his left ear. Looks like a perfectly normal ear, no sign of any implant, swelling, surgery scars, etc. that he claims. I have the photos on my Bad UFOs Blog posting of July 25 (and I think I have almost enough postings to be able to post URLs, soon!). Robert
RobertoDebunker New Blood Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 20

18th August 2012, 08:45 AM	#9
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	This reminds me of the Raelian human cloning debacle. When independent scientists offered to verify the truth of the claim, there was some excuse why it would not be permitted and no actual evidence has been forthcoming. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Greer has had similar offers to do DNA testing, but for some reason or another has declined the offers in favor acquiring donations.
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	__________________ USI Calgary

20th August 2012, 03:58 PM	#10
Burning Beard Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 540	I haven't been to the Disclosure Project site for a while so checked in for a quick looky-see. I went to "News" then clicked on the "Upcoming events" link. Ambassador trainings! I clicked the details link and wow... How to make Contact with ET civilisations using the CSETI CE-5 protocols and how to really become an Ambassador to the Universe! (Note how they spell Contact with a capital C?) $2500 - for people who have not been to a prior Ambassador training, including materials and lifetime CSETI membership. $995 - for people who have already attended at least 1 Ambassador training, but no materials will be sent. (note: a maximum of 5 people may attend at the discounted rate) For the Mt. Shasta training the fee for previous attendees is $1195 due to a facility fee. $1250 – a special fee for full time students under the age of 26.
Burning Beard Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 540	__________________ Check out my heavy metal version of the Doctor Who theme... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_9g2nXpYl0 And my Surf Guitar version... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WioJ...eRkAD3bh1dU_gF

20th August 2012, 04:19 PM	#11
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	Originally Posted by Burning Beard I haven't been to the Disclosure Project site for a while so checked in for a quick looky-see. I went to "News" then clicked on the "Upcoming events" link. Ambassador trainings! I clicked the details link and wow ... How to make Contact with ET civilisations using the CSETI CE-5 protocols and how to really become an Ambassador to the Universe! (Note how they spell Contact with a capital C?) $2500 - for people who have not been to a prior Ambassador training, including materials and lifetime CSETI membership. $995 - for people who have already attended at least 1 Ambassador training, but no materials will be sent. (note: a maximum of 5 people may attend at the discounted rate) For the Mt. Shasta training the fee for previous attendees is $1195 due to a facility fee. $1250 – a special fee for full time students under the age of 26. The CSETI CE-5 Protocols seem like a rather convoluted way of trying to communicate with aliens. If anything unusual happens it would probably be pure coincidence. Wouldn't that be something if they were out doing this seemingly ridiculous excercise and some kind of UFO ( alien craft ) just happened to come along? I wonder what they ( the aliens ) would think?
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	__________________ USI Calgary Last edited by ufology; 20th August 2012 at 04:20 PM.

20th August 2012, 07:27 PM	#12
I Am He Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 258	Originally Posted by ufology The CSETI CE-5 Protocols seem like a rather convoluted way of trying to communicate with aliens. If anything unusual happens it would probably be pure coincidence. Wouldn't that be something if they were out doing this seemingly ridiculous excercise and some kind of UFO ( alien craft ) just happened to come along? I wonder what they ( the aliens ) would think? UFO (alien craft) ? A UFO is an unknown and a craft could mean a lot of things, like a boat or a plane etc. So please stop with this nonsense please. I Am He
I Am He Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 258	__________________ I see you're playing stupid again, looks like you're winning

25th November 2012, 04:48 PM	#13
Newbeak Scholar Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 124	Okay,we accept Greer is a genuine gold plated fruitcake,but what do you make of the witnesses who held top secret clearances while in the government service who claim first hand experience with alien craft and/or aliens? If it were a dozen,I could accept they were delusional or loony toons,but there were many more than that at Greer's disclosure news conferences.
Newbeak Scholar Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 124	__________________ Wannabe skeptic

25th November 2012, 04:51 PM	#14
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	Originally Posted by Newbeak Okay,we accept Greer is a genuine gold plated fruitcake,but what do you make of the witnesses who held top secret clearances while in the government service who claim first hand experience with alien craft and/or aliens? If it were a dozen,I could accept they were delusional or loony toons,but there were many more than that at Greer's disclosure news conferences. ...and we know this, how?
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

25th November 2012, 05:11 PM	#15
Newbeak Scholar Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 124	Originally Posted by Kid Eager ...and we know this, how? Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded? It should be easy to confirm they did serve in the military,and some,such as Charles Halt,are known to have served,if only due to all the publicity surrounding the Rendlesham Forest incident.
Newbeak Scholar Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 124	__________________ Wannabe skeptic

25th November 2012, 05:15 PM	#16
Sherman Bay Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 2,424	Originally Posted by Newbeak Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded? Yes. The lure of fame and fortune is a powerful attraction, especially if you need no proof of what you claim and have none anyway. It's fantasy camp!

25th November 2012, 05:28 PM	#17
Newbeak Scholar Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 124	Originally Posted by Sherman Bay Yes. The lure of fame and fortune is a powerful attraction, especially if you need no proof of what you claim and have none anyway. It's fantasy camp! I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy.
Newbeak Scholar Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 124	__________________ Wannabe skeptic

25th November 2012, 05:42 PM	#18
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 85,561	Originally Posted by Newbeak I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy. And thus does a lack of evidence magically transform into evidence for a cover-up.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

25th November 2012, 05:53 PM	#19
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	Going On Record According to author Leslie Kean in her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record There have been ranking military people come forward with testimony. I think some of them may have also appeared at Greer's early disclosure sessions. Should we believe it all? I don't think so. Should we dismiss it all? Without evidence that witnesses are lying or misinformed about everything, it would seem irresponsible to level such accusations. This is the same thing we're left with time and time again. So the question is: How many such cases does it take before we start to take seemingly credible witnesses seriously? 500? 1500? 2500? 10,000? More? Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head.
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	__________________ USI Calgary Last edited by ufology; 25th November 2012 at 05:57 PM.

25th November 2012, 06:06 PM	#20
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	Originally Posted by Newbeak I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy. It's not unreasonable to think that when there are leaks that there is also some damage control. What is unreasonable is to believe Sherman Bay's suggestion that "fame and fortune" are in store for those who come forward. Very few people make a living doing ufology. Most have to pay out of their own pockets to do research. A few will become well known to those interested in the subject, but real fame ( like superstar fame ) is some kind of myth. I've never seen it.
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	__________________ USI Calgary Last edited by ufology; 25th November 2012 at 06:07 PM.

25th November 2012, 06:06 PM	#21
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628	Quote: If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head i would do exactly that, because that is exactly what has taken place. the plural of anecdote is not evidence. the sheer distances involved make the probability slim, the fact that our radio waves have only been travelling for 150 years makes it slimmer (narrows the available worlds that have life to within a 75 year window (they'd have to hear it then immediately head this way at the speed of light). Not to mention the energy required..... I know what you will say though "ALIEN PHYSICS!!!"
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628

25th November 2012, 06:08 PM	#22
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	Originally Posted by Björn Toulouse The Woo sites have been drooling lately about the First Contact possibilities that the year 2012 has to offer, a lot of those dates for August, and today, the 4th, was supposed to be a big one too. Stephen Greer's blog has been out there for a week but I just stumbled across this where Greer says they may actually have an ET or EBE stiff: And here comes the pitch: I guess he can always say later "we didn't quite get enough money" to perform the proper testing. It wouldn't take a lot of "testing". They could just SHOW it to a scientist at a big-name U. (Heck, ANY U. would do, I'd think.) No money required. Just SHOW it -- SHOW you have something REAL -- then if you do need money you'll be able to get it easily as people will have GENUINE reason to support you. But they don't do this. Therefore, we can conclude they likely do not have what they say they have.
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and consuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – my reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote. Last edited by mike3; 25th November 2012 at 06:12 PM.

25th November 2012, 06:09 PM	#23
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	Originally Posted by ufology According to author Leslie Kean in her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record There have been ranking military people come forward with testimony. I think some of them may have also appeared at Greer's early disclosure sessions. Should we believe it all? I don't think so. Should we dismiss it all? Without evidence that witnesses are lying or misinformed about everything, it would seem irresponsible to level such accusations. This is the same thing we're left with time and time again. So the question is: How many such cases does it take before we start to take seemingly credible witnesses seriously? 500? 1500? 2500? 10,000? More? Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head. It doesn't matter if you have a hundred, a thousand, a million, or even a BILLION anecdotes -- it STILL isn't scientific evidence. It has nothing to do with the quantity of information, rather it has to do with the nature of the information.
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and consuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – my reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

25th November 2012, 06:10 PM	#24
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628	oddly enough mike3, this is the EXACT same thing I say to footers all the time. Yet they hand wave it away by saying" the govt won't allow Universities to deal with such things"
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628

25th November 2012, 06:14 PM	#25
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	Originally Posted by Newbeak Well,can several dozen people who claim to have held top secret security clearances all be lying/deluded? It should be easy to confirm they did serve in the military,and some,such as Charles Halt,are known to have served,if only due to all the publicity surrounding the Rendlesham Forest incident. again, we know this, how? There's a few hurdles here - that the people who claim to have had a high security clearance did so that the holding of the high security clearance is in any way relevant to the claims that they are making that the holding of a high security clearance in any way vests the claimant in an automatically higher level of credibility that the claimant is telling the truth that the claimant's truthful interpretation is actually what happened.
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

25th November 2012, 06:15 PM	#26
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	Originally Posted by ufology It's not unreasonable to think that when there are leaks that there is also some damage control. What is unreasonable is to believe Sherman Bay's suggestion that "fame and fortune" are in store for those who come forward. Very few people make a living doing ufology. Most have to pay out of their own pockets to do research. A few will become well known to those interested in the subject, but real fame ( like superstar fame ) is some kind of myth. I've never seen it. Only because NOBODY HAS PROVIDED SOLID EVIDENCE YET. If you had a piece of HARD, undeniable EVIDENCE of an alien encounter, then you WOULD be famous, famous like you wouldn't believe! It would be THE greatest scientific discovery of the century, perhaps even the millennium, and at least one of the greatest in the history of humanity!
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and consuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – my reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

25th November 2012, 06:17 PM	#27
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	Originally Posted by Sherman Bay Yes. The lure of fame and fortune is a powerful attraction, especially if you need no proof of what you claim and have none anyway. It's fantasy camp! The lure of fame and fortune is what shows this to be likely bollox. Because if they DID have something FOR REAL, then they would TRULY be able to get fame and fortune from it, and so they'd release it... and they don't, but instead start "begging".
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and consuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – my reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

25th November 2012, 06:33 PM	#28
Sherman Bay Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 2,424	Originally Posted by ufology According to author Leslie Kean in her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record There have been ranking military people come forward with testimony. I think some of them may have also appeared at Greer's early disclosure sessions. Should we believe it all? I don't think so. Should we dismiss it all? Without evidence that witnesses are lying or misinformed about everything, it would seem irresponsible to level such accusations. This is the same thing we're left with time and time again. So the question is: How many such cases does it take before we start to take seemingly credible witnesses seriously? 500? 1500? 2500? 10,000? More? No amount of "credible" witnesses will replace solid evidence, especially those who seem to suddenly "recall" incredible events from 60 years ago, unaltered by 60 years of news reports, chat rooms and gossip. Wish my memory was that good. Quote: Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head. {Raises hand and stands up.} Me! Me! I will! They're all liars and/or nuts! Originally Posted by Newbeak I suppose that refutes claims that the government couldn't keep such a huge secret secret for 60 odd years if there were any substance to it-anyone claiming intimate knowledge of top secret UFO projects would be dismissed out of hand,thus preserving the secrecy. Yep, that's how it works, fersure. Our coverups are impregnable and impenetrable.
	Last edited by Sherman Bay; 25th November 2012 at 06:34 PM.

25th November 2012, 09:29 PM	#29
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	Originally Posted by StankApe the plural of anecdote is not evidence. Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable. Quote: The sheer distances involved make the probability slim, the fact that our radio waves have only been traveling for 150 years makes it slimmer (narrows the available worlds that have life to within a 75 year window (they'd have to hear it then immediately head this way at the speed of light). Not to mention the energy required ... I know what you will say though "ALIEN PHYSICS!!!" There is nothing unscientific about interstellar travel. Lower speeds and extended travel time may not be that big a problem for a species with an unlimited lifespan. It could conceivably be done with technology only modestly superior to our present day. No "Alien Physics" required.
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	__________________ USI Calgary Last edited by ufology; 25th November 2012 at 09:32 PM.

25th November 2012, 09:30 PM	#30
fromdownunder Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,721	Originally Posted by ufology Before making the claim that it doesn't matter how many witnesses there are, it might be wise to first imagine yourself in room with 3000 credible witnesses, real people that you take the time to talk with an open mind. If for just one minute you could picture yourself actually doing that, and still believe it would be reasonable to then stand up in front of them all and call them liars, misinformed or nuts, then all I can do is shake my head. There have been reportedly tens of thousands of Elvis sightings since his death. So if you were in a room with 3,000 credible witnesses who claim to have seen Elvis since he died, would you accept that he is still alive? How many Elvis claims would you need to be convinced of this? Norm

25th November 2012, 09:41 PM	#31
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628	Originally Posted by ufology Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable. They don't count when it comes to proving an extraordinary claim. They don't count when proving a new species (even a new kind of mundane critter like a frog, still need a body ) they don't count when proving a new theory about the Universe. (the math's have to be there to back it up) so no, a bunch of people making claims is NOT evidence. They are all liars, mistaken or crazy. That's the null hypothesis. You must back up their claims with facts, hard,verifiable evidence. You have none. There is nothing unscientific about interstellar travel. Lower speeds and extended travel time may not be that big a problem for a species with an unlimited lifespan. It could conceivably be done with technology only modestly superior to our present day. No "Alien Physics" required. What evidence do you have for this long life span alien life form? Or are you just shifting thing around ? Starting with a solution then shoehorning a problem to fit it isn't science at all. It's daydreaming, speculation, malarky. Plus you haven't addressed the problem of "who knows we are here?" do you know how many star systems are visible from earth? They would have to have heard us, then located us, then flown here. BTW: long interstellar travel doesn't work unless you are claiming these aliens blindly stumbled into earth. Cuz how else would the know we were here but with our radio wave emissions? So, unless you are saying they live in the next star system on the left, (and left the week after they heard our transmissions) they couldn't have made it here yet with this slow,interstellar travel you speak of.
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628

25th November 2012, 09:51 PM	#32
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rachel, KS Posts: 33,127	Originally Posted by ufology [font=Arial][size=3]Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable.[/size][/font] ...in courts of law ( triers of fact ) where hundreds of credible witnesses testified to witchcraft. Were they all lying and/or deluded? These were upstanding members of the community. Quote: [font=Arial][size=3]There is nothing unscientific about interstellar travel. Lower speeds and extended travel time may not be that big a problem for a species with an unlimited lifespan. It could conceivably be done with technology only modestly superior to our present day. No "Alien Physics" required.[/size][/font] There is nothing unscientific about witchcraft, no "Magic" required, just physics we don't yet understand. So, ufology, do you now believe in witchcraft and witches? It's your same reasoning. If not, why not? By the way, it's also the same argument you ran like a rabbit from in the moderated thread.
	Last edited by RoboTimbo; 25th November 2012 at 10:01 PM.

25th November 2012, 09:55 PM	#33
GeeMack Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,235	Originally Posted by ufology [font=Arial][size=3]Documentation from firsthand observation and experience is anecdotal and it qualifies as evidence and has been proven useful many times in the past. For example meteor shower counts, visual confirmation of radar targets, forest fire watch tower reports, security guard alerts ... and the list goes on and on. Anecdotal evidence is also used in medicine, particularly in evaluating clinical trials. Merely proclaiming that such evidence doesn't qualify is not rationally supportable.[/size][/font] No, that's not how science works. Merely proclaiming that anecdotes constitute evidence doesn't qualify as a rational argument. It may help for you to take a first level science course at your community college or an adult education program in your area. What has never helped your persistently wrong arguments is just guessing whatever the hell you think makes your belief real. Do note how that strategy has resulted in failure time after time.
GeeMack Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,235

25th November 2012, 09:56 PM	#34
GeeMack Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,235	Originally Posted by StankApe What evidence do you have for this long life span alien life form? Or are you just shifting thing around ? Starting with a solution then shoehorning a problem to fit it isn't science at all. It's daydreaming, speculation, malarky. You understand ufology's position perfectly.
GeeMack Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,235

25th November 2012, 10:18 PM	#35
ufology Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,681	Originally Posted by StankApe What evidence do you have for this long life span alien life form? Or are you just shifting thing around ? Starting with a solution then shoehorning a problem to fit it isn't science at all. It's daydreaming, speculation, malarky. Plus you haven't addressed the problem of "who knows we are here?" do you know how many star systems are visible from earth? They would have to have heard us, then located us, then flown here. BTW: long interstellar travel doesn't work unless you are claiming these aliens blindly stumbled into earth. Cuz how else would the know we were here but with our radio wave emissions? So, unless you are saying they live in the next star system on the left, (and left the week after they heard our transmissions) they couldn't have made it here yet with this slow,interstellar travel you speak of. Perhaps I should have stated that I'm not making any claim to be doing science here. We're just having a friendly discussion about possibilities. Long life spans are biologically possible. For example Turritopsis nutricula, the immortal jellyfish, is known to be the longest living creature which could live on forever without dying of old age ... more here Regarding knowing Earth is here. We have detected planets around other stars with our own instruments without having first received intelligent signals. We figured out the "Goldilocks Zone" so assuming that physics are pretty much the same everywhere, a look at the Sun from light years away could reveal Earth is here long before our radio waves or even humans were here. So if they set out to get here 1500 years ago, that makes over 500 G type stars they could have come from at only one third light speed. And of course, even if we dismiss long lifespans, we can still invoke multi-generation vessels. None of this is scientifically impossible.
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