ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags james millette , kevin ryan , Niels Harrit , paint chips , richard gage , steven jones , wtc

Reply
Old 20th December 2012, 08:14 AM   #1161
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,211
Well, they could also have tested for aluminium oxide residue.

If they wanted to follow Tillotson & Gash, that's what they should have done.

This is not the best thread for this discussion, though, as that's unrelated to Millette's study. This one looks more appropriate:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=140017
__________________
Ask questions. Demand answers. But be prepared to accept the answers, or don't ask questions in the first place.

Last edited by pgimeno; 20th December 2012 at 08:15 AM.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2012, 08:18 AM   #1162
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by Steen Svanholm View Post
Hi Oystein

You said: "You are correct that surely the iron would oxidize fast, but I doubt it would oxidize completely."

My point was if it would oxidize enough to not be disinguishable from any iron oxide sphere.

But I guess from Ivans answer that even elemental iron residue from an actual thermitic reaction is difficult to distinguish from other iron oxide spheres.

Thus, it is a much better proof to perform the reaction in an inert gas.

Kindly,
Steen
Absolutely, and of course.
Don't forget that in order to prove that iron was produced, you must have first shown that no iron was present - difficult to do when you don't analyse your gray iron/iron oxide layer and always have it present
Don't forget that in order to prove that any produced iron came from thermite reaction, you must also show that Al turned into Al oxide, and rule out other reactions.
Don't forget that more than half the mass of the red layer is organic matrix, with millions of possible reactions occurring.

So even if you manage to prove elemental iron, you haven't proven thermite yet.


By the way: Now that Ivan linked to the Tillotson and Gash paper, take a close look at its Fig. 4 - the PXRD result:



I inserted four values for the four interesting compounds, which I retrieved from the following XRD database:
http://webmineral.com/MySQL/xray.php
Type "Fe", "Al", "Fe2O3", "Al2O3" into the search field "Element", and look for the value in round parentheses in the first column of the search result. That's the main value for "Two Theta" that's plotted on the x-axis in Figure 4.

As you can see, the peaks at Two Theta for Fe and Al2O3 are very prominent (although the graph seems shifted right by 2 or three pixels), but there is nothing at the Two Theta values for Al and Fe2O3.

So this shows that not only did Tillotson and Gash find the expected thermite reaction products, it also shows that the reactants are mostly gone. Remember T&G knew exactly that their material contained 90% thermite (ca. 23% Al, ca. 67% Fe2O3, if they aimed at a stoichiometric mix - the rest organic residue of the gel process), so there is their proof that thermite changed into thermite products - all four substances are accounted for.

Contrast this to Harrit e.al. who
- did not prove metallic Al before the DSC test
- did not prove Al2O3 after the DSC test
- did not prove absence of metallic Fe before the DSC test
- only have vague evidence of some possible metallic Fe after the reaction
All they have is some proportion (of unknown quantitiy) of iron oxide before the test - AND they also have some proportion (again, of unknown quantity) of iron oxide after the test, so they
- did not prove that Fe2O3 was reduced during the test


Steen, it's good that you try to understand fine details, and what difference different test protocols would make. But there is so much more that they would have to change about their test designe to make definitive about thermite or no thermite!
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2012, 12:37 PM   #1163
Steen Svanholm
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Hi Pgimeno

Thanks for your response.

You may be right that the Jones thread is more appropriate. I chose this since I previously got useful answers about the same subject.

Perhaps I or we should start a thread for "technical beginners" like myself in the nano-thermite filed :-)

And yet, it is not completely irrelevant here, either, since my questions relate to Millette's conclusion that no (or not sufficient) Al was present in the test samples, seeing that this increases the burden of proof on Harrit.

I will have your suggstion in mind, thanks.

Kindly,
Steen
Steen Svanholm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #1164
Steen Svanholm
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Hi again Oystein

Thanks again for a useful answer. I notice that you do an effort of explaining things on my layman's level. I appreciate this patience of yours very much.

Especially, bullet point overviews like these are useful to me:

"Contrast this to Harrit e.al. who
- did not prove metallic Al before the DSC test
- did not prove Al2O3 after the DSC test
- did not prove absence of metallic Fe before the DSC test
- only have vague evidence of some possible metallic Fe after the reaction
All they have is some proportion (of unknown quantitiy) of iron oxide before the test - AND they also have some proportion (again, of unknown quantity) of iron oxide after the test, so they
- did not prove that Fe2O3 was reduced during the test"

I need those for the regular truther debates here in DK, I participate in.

I am also aware that many other aspects of the "nano report" are quite problematic and would need to be tested otherwise. But everything has a season within debates and right now, the micro spheres are hot, mind the pun.

Kindly,
Steen
Steen Svanholm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 07:11 AM   #1165
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Chris (and all):

Here is a photo of floor trusses stored in some large/tall hall.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...pictureid=7064

Hangar 17? Could anyone help to identify this place?
Hi Ivan and all,

In our search for a known LaClede primer sample, I copied this picture and sent it to NIST people, who referred me to the Port Authority, who referred me to Nancy Johnson, who has written to me twice, "Chris, the Port Authority does not have possession of this or any similar WTC steel." We seem to be at a dead end. In any event, I am wondering if the very best sample would not be from the WTC steel anyway, but a known sample from one of those collectors of samples of particles (some of these scientists have collections of dust or chips or whatever numbering in the hundreds of thousands and use them for forensic analysis). But to my knowledge, even Millette has been unable to find anyone with a LaClede primer sample when asking people for them at the conferences where he gave a lecture on his dust study. I'm not sure if any other leads exist.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 08:12 AM   #1166
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Hi Ivan and all,

In our search for a known LaClede primer sample, I copied this picture and sent it to NIST people, who referred me to the Port Authority, who referred me to Nancy Johnson, who has written to me twice, "Chris, the Port Authority does not have possession of this or any similar WTC steel." We seem to be at a dead end. In any event, I am wondering if the very best sample would not be from the WTC steel anyway, but a known sample from one of those collectors of samples of particles (some of these scientists have collections of dust or chips or whatever numbering in the hundreds of thousands and use them for forensic analysis). But to my knowledge, even Millette has been unable to find anyone with a LaClede primer sample when asking people for them at the conferences where he gave a lecture on his dust study. I'm not sure if any other leads exist.
Well... thanks anyway, Chris
But Port Authority still should store "WTC meteorite/s", isn't it so? Those objects should contain some floor trusses remains, according to photos...

I doubt that any collector owns any piece of trusses, which can be unambigously identified.

Otherwise, since your inquiries to authorities/companies are being at least answered, you (or Jim Millette) may send some inquiry to electrocoating division of PPG industries, here.

Some questions can be:
- Had you manufactured red primer (formula LREP-10001) for electrocoating of WTC1/2 floor trusses?
- If yes, had been the same primer applied in some other buildings/constructions?
- Do you keep some samples of this paint?
(- My additional question: Is it possible that strontium chromate originally present in the primer was partially/completely depleted during course of time (forty years?)

But, the chance that such inquiry would lead to some really fruitful results/info is not really high, I think

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 9th January 2013 at 08:13 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 10:31 AM   #1167
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Too bad, Chris

One work-around (in German, one would call it a "crutch") might be to just recreate the paint according to the recipe that we know. Problem of course would be that fresh paint might behave differently than aged paint. This would at least be interesting to test / compare thermal behaviour, if Millette plans to do thermal tests (not necessarily DSC - just some heating and burning to see if any spheres form)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 10:39 AM   #1168
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Over in the Mark-Basile-Thread, I just posted excerpts from my (yet unfinished) transcript of a recent interview Mark gave. In it, he acknowledges that "The vast majority of [red chips pulled from WTC dust] actually are primer paint".

Frank Legge, too, has already acknowledged in writing (I'll write about that later) that some red-gray chips are paint. And Jones, likewise, has suggested that Millette may have looked at the "wrong" chips.

So their line of defense clearly is "we admit there is primer paint, but there is also nano-thermite, and Millette picked the wrong chips" (and they'll add that this was evil, deliberate deception by this creepy tool of the NWO overlords, or some such nonsense).

Which means we should get them to commit to a method on how to select the right chips - before destroying by fire of course.
And specifically, ask: How did Jeff Farrer select the chips he tested in the DSC?

They should give us an exact protocol of steps to follow. This was asked of Frank Legge - and he ran away. I asked this of Mark Basile - no reply yet. Someone asked Steven Jones - I haven't heard of an answer yet.
(Better yet, they should give us chips - and we know that Kevin Ryan ran away from that)

Last edited by Oystein; 9th January 2013 at 11:37 AM.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 10:42 AM   #1169
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 14,900
Here's a piece, not sure if it has the primer. Pretty close to home for me:

Oak Forest Now Home to 9/11 Steel Beam
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 10:47 AM   #1170
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Here's a piece, not sure if it has the primer. Pretty close to home for me:

Oak Forest Now Home to 9/11 Steel Beam
Nope, that's not what we are looking for. That piece is too wide and massive to be a from a floor truss. It's more likely a piece of cross-bracing from the core, but could be many other things, too, even from another building than the twins.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 01:08 PM   #1171
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 14,900
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Nope, that's not what we are looking for. That piece is too wide and massive to be a from a floor truss. It's more likely a piece of cross-bracing from the core, but could be many other things, too, even from another building than the twins.
Yes, I wasn't sure from the picture.
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 01:13 PM   #1172
Miragememories
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,473
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
"Over in the Mark-Basile-Thread, I just posted excerpts from my (yet unfinished) transcript of a recent interview Mark gave. In it, he acknowledges that "The vast majority of [red chips pulled from WTC dust] actually are primer paint".

Frank Legge, too, has already acknowledged in writing (I'll write about that later) that some red-gray chips are paint. And Jones, likewise, has suggested that Millette may have looked at the "wrong" chips.

So their line of defense clearly is "we admit there is primer paint, but there is also nano-thermite, and Millette picked the wrong chips" (and they'll add that this was evil, deliberate deception by this creepy tool of the NWO overlords, or some such nonsense).

Which means we should get them to commit to a method on how to select the right chips - before destroying by fire of course.
And specifically, ask: How did Jeff Farrer select the chips he tested in the DSC?

They should give us an exact protocol of steps to follow. This was asked of Frank Legge - and he ran away. I asked this of Mark Basile - no reply yet. Someone asked Steven Jones - I haven't heard of an answer yet.
(Better yet, they should give us chips - and we know that Kevin Ryan ran away from that)
"
Well I looked at your so-called "money quotes".

You are mining fool's gold.

The Bentham Paper authors have never denied the existence of other primer paints.

They acknowledge the obvious, the dust is the residue of everything that made up the WTC on 9/11.

No one questions that steel primer paint is usually red, so do you believe the scientists would not expect to find red steel primer paints in the WTC dust?

Dr. Jones as you know looked at primer paint samples.

MM
Miragememories is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 01:28 PM   #1173
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
...
The Bentham Paper authors have never denied the existence of other primer paints.

They acknowledge the obvious, the dust is the residue of everything that made up the WTC on 9/11.

No one questions that steel primer paint is usually red, so do you believe the scientists would not expect to find red steel primer paints in the WTC dust?
Ok, then you can surely explain to Dr. Millette how to separate thermitic chips from paint chips and thus select the thermitic chips?
And explain, in actionable detail, what Millette did wrong when he selected his chips?

In other words: Please give us a step-by-step recipe to detect and select thermitic chips from a bag of WTC dust.

Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Dr. Jones as you know looked at primer paint samples.
...
Yes - and what did he conclude about the red-gray chips?
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 01:51 PM   #1174
cjnewson88
Graduate Poster
 
cjnewson88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,676
I just remembered about this;

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2VYH

Although obviously not from the floor sections, I could still try and get a scraping of paint and send it over
__________________
Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed.
Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88
cjnewson88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 02:05 PM   #1175
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 3,916
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Here's a piece, not sure if it has the primer. Pretty close to home for me:

Oak Forest Now Home to 9/11 Steel Beam
Another option would be to possibly reach out to Chrissy Maher to see what the process was exactly. She said it was rather difficult, and she might not have any desire to help, but one could try. I wouldn't have an issue contacting her if need be. She said it was rough but maybe a contact of hers could point us in the right direction.
__________________
"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2013, 04:58 PM   #1176
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,744
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
... Dr. Jones as you know looked at primer paint samples.

MM
He looked at Christ in the New World, both studies will not change perpetual failure, the product of 911 truth.

Bad for Jones there is no Pulitzer Prize for fooling people, spreading lies of thermite destroying WTC 1 and 2. Jones would be a winner.

Ironic, but expected, no one can use science to help Jones.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 12:38 AM   #1177
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Here's a piece, not sure if it has the primer. Pretty close to home for me:

Oak Forest Now Home to 9/11 Steel Beam
Whereas this memorial again does not contain floor trusses, you reminded me that hypothetically, some of the numerous memorials/sculptures may perhaps contain some little pieces of trusses still attached to the floor trusses connectors (many of connectors are depicted in NIST NCSTAR 1-3a).
But it's not very probable, since even in the NCSTAR 1-3a report, no pieces of floor trusses are clearly visible.

Here are some more interesting 911 memorials (I mean interesting from our specific point of view)

Memorial in Saratoga Springs:



Memorial in "Christ Church", another view:



Planned memorial in London:


Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 10th January 2013 at 01:03 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 01:04 AM   #1178
Spanx
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,020
http://911memorials.org/?p=1#more-1

This may come in handy ?
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 01:21 AM   #1179
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
http://911memorials.org/?p=1#more-1

This may come in handy ?
Thanks) Could you pls look if there is any memorial depicted there, which may accidentally contain floor trusses or their pieces? They should look like this (right/down corner):

Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 01:32 AM   #1180
Spanx
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,020
http://www.care2.com/causes/911-memo...er-forget.html

Would these be what your looking for ?
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 06:31 AM   #1181
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
Several comments about posts above. First, wow, lots of leads here. Can Ivan or Oystein sort through these and find out if any of these debris memorials might have what we are looking for?

BTW in support of what MM said, when Kevin Ryan was still talking to me, he said that he has in his possession both red-grey paint chips and red-grey thermitic chips, "and I can tell you they are not the same." He claimed that they look different to the eye, but more importantly, that the thermitic chips have an exothermic quality that the paint chips don't. Unfortunately, he refused to release the samples to me or Millette, and our personal connection broke down around that time. I was never able to get samples of these different kinds of chips, or more info about them in relation to the Bentham paper. Nor did I know at that time about the two different types of paint primer in use at WTC. So MM is right that the Bentham authors knew there were paint chips, but his noncooperation has made it impossible to know what he actually has. In the meantime, however, the Millette study has not been credibly refuted when it comes to the question of which chips he tested. Many 9/11 Truth people seem to agree that his methodology in finding the correct chips was sound.

Oystein I doubt Millette would have any interest in a concoction made up to imitate the original LaClede paint. he wants the real thing, for a number of good reasons.

As for the various pieces of steel debris in the WTC memorials, can Ivan or Oystein ID any possible places where trusses are to be found in any of them for a possible scraping?

I like Ivan's idea of writing to PPG for original samples. BTW the only reason I get as many answers as I do is because I keep asking, respectfully and sincerely, by email and phone, over and over again until it takes more time to ignore me than to answer me. Is anyone willing to take on the PPG request Ivan outlines above? This would be the gold standard in my mind.

I may be wrong, but I wonder if a known sample of LaClede from a forensic scientist with a vast collection of paint chip samples would be even better than a scraping from the WTC debris? Millette has been looking for both, asking forensic scientists at all the conventions he attends if they have various paint samples as well as scraping off a bit of a WTC memorial that passed through his hometown of Atlanta.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 07:11 AM   #1182
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Chris:
I doubt that PPG can posses some original paint samples, but they could remember if the same primer paint was applied in other buildings/constructions. And such places can be very good sources of samples. This paint job (WTC) had to be anyway important business even for such a big company. I think

As for your last paragraph, you mean that some collector could possess the chips of the same paint as was used in WTC1/2 floor trusses? Good, but this would again require some cooperation with the manufacturer. Otherwise, chips of paint for WTC floor trusses can be recognized quite easily in any collection: they must have the same XEDS spectrum, appearance, thickness as chips (a) to (d) in Bentham paper

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 10th January 2013 at 07:26 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 07:21 AM   #1183
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Deleted...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 10th January 2013 at 07:25 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 08:07 AM   #1184
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Several comments about posts above. First, wow, lots of leads here. Can Ivan or Oystein sort through these and find out if any of these debris memorials might have what we are looking for?
Unfortunately, I see no hint of floor truss material in any of the linked images upthread
On all the memorials that use WTC debris, all the steel I can discern is of the massive, impressive kind, which the trusses are not. The trusses consist of L-shaped chords and round web bars, with mostly the following dimensions:
L-shaped bulb angles, 3 in. x 2 in. (lower truss chord)
L-shaped bulb angles, 2 in. x 1.5 in. (upper truss chord)
Round bars of 0.75 in., 0.92 in., 0.98 in., 1.09 in., 1 13/16 in. (truss webs)
(The main trusses come in two main varieties: 60-ft long, and 36-ft long. Perpendicular to those, there were bridging trusses that were somewhat flimsier, I don't know their typical length)

(Source: NIST NCSTAR 1-3D Table 3-10, page 57)

Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
BTW in support of what MM said, when Kevin Ryan was still talking to me, he said that he has in his possession both red-grey paint chips and red-grey thermitic chips, "and I can tell you they are not the same." He claimed that they look different to the eye, but more importantly, that the thermitic chips have an exothermic quality that the paint chips don't. Unfortunately, he refused to release the samples to me or Millette, and our personal connection broke down around that time. I was never able to get samples of these different kinds of chips, or more info about them in relation to the Bentham paper. Nor did I know at that time about the two different types of paint primer in use at WTC. So MM is right that the Bentham authors knew there were paint chips, but his noncooperation has made it impossible to know what he actually has.
Problem is, they never put that into writing. Reading the Bentham paper, no carefulk reader would get the idea that they acknowledge the presence of red-gray chips that are paint, and use any method to avoid thise. Thus any follow-up researcher wouldn't know how to separate paint chips from "thermitic" chips. What are the objective criteria, short of burning them? I suppose Farrer knew which chips to put in the DSC - or did he test a lot of chips and only some showed the exothermic quality, and that's the sole criterion? How then do they know it is not some paint that happens to have an exothermic quality?

Jones and Legge suggest following the protocol described in the Bentham paper to select chips - but that is exactly what Millette did:
- Pull a magnet through the dust
- Under a microscope, separate those that are bi-layered red and grey
- Additionally, he chose some whose EDS spectra match Fig. 6 and 7

So I would like for Kevin, Frank, Steve, Niels or Jeff - or Mark - to please explain to all researchers interested in "replicating" the Harrit study what Millette did wrong, and how to do it right - apparently, the descriptions contained in the Bentham paper are not sufficient!


Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
In the meantime, however, the Millette study has not been credibly refuted when it comes to the question of which chips he tested. Many 9/11 Truth people seem to agree that his methodology in finding the correct chips was sound.
Yes and no. "They" like to focus on the lack of DSC testing - but there must be an objective and non-destructive way to distinguish the chips prior to burning them.

Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Oystein I doubt Millette would have any interest in a concoction made up to imitate the original LaClede paint. he wants the real thing, for a number of good reasons.
I understand those reasons.

Re-creating the formulation could serve one purpose: To demonstrate that a paint LIKE LaClede can or can't display such an exothermic quality.


Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
I may be wrong, but I wonder if a known sample of LaClede from a forensic scientist with a vast collection of paint chip samples would be even better than a scraping from the WTC debris?
Hmm -why?
As Sunstealer pointed out: Let's not forget that the red-gray chips are red-gray chips, so at the end of the day, if you want to compare the behaviour of known LaClede primer with those chips that we believe to be LaClede on steel scale, you'd have to include the gray layer - as that may be the actual source of iron-rich microspheres. Doubtful if a forensic catalogue of such samples would have the paint attached to scale.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 09:34 AM   #1185
Spanx
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,020
A few smaller pieces of steel in the link below.

http://www.newser.com/story/121832/w...memorials.html
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 09:56 AM   #1186
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
A few smaller pieces of steel in the link below.

http://www.newser.com/story/121832/w...memorials.html
Ergh... still too large pieces. It is written in the article that WTC steel was sent from Port Authority "to thousands of fire departments, police departments, and cities", but who knows if there were any floor trusses among them
Anyway, if Port Autority owns/owned thousands of steel pieces, it "slightly" contradicts to the claims of truthers that the steel was almost completely shipped to China (or whenever) soon after the disaster...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 10th January 2013 at 10:06 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 10:26 AM   #1187
Spanx
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,020
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Ergh... still too large pieces. It is written in the article that WTC steel was sent from Port Authority "to thousands of fire departments, police departments, and cities", but who knows if there were any floor trusses among them
Anyway, if Port Autority owns/owned thousands of steel pieces, it "slightly" contradicts to the claims of truthers that the steel was almost completely shipped to China (or whenever) soon after the disaster...
I think I will be including firefighter in my steel searches.

Looks like some of the steel ended up in the below link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqUqv...eature=youtube

Last edited by Spanx; 10th January 2013 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Changed link
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 12:32 PM   #1188
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
A few smaller pieces of steel in the link below.

http://www.newser.com/story/121832/w...memorials.html
A somewhat larger image size is here:
http://en.artron.net/news/news.php?newid=171962

Actually, that might be chords from the floor joists! Not easy to tell though, the tele-lens might distort size proportions.


And another view, unfortunately photoshopped for art effects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/batong/7039886637/

Last edited by Oystein; 10th January 2013 at 12:35 PM.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 12:56 PM   #1189
Spanx
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,020
http://wiltonfiredept.org/2011/08/

Another possible above ^

I would be suprised if there is any paint left on any of the trusses due to the compression they suffered.
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 01:08 PM   #1190
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by Spanx View Post
http://wiltonfiredept.org/2011/08/

Another possible above ^

I would be suprised if there is any paint left on any of the trusses due to the compression they suffered.
Onle the big piece of I-beam is explicitely said to be from the WTC. The angled piece could well be, as well ass the round bar. Not the circle though, I think.

The artist's homepage has a Contact page:

http://mvarametalandpaint.com/site/
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 03:29 PM   #1191
cjnewson88
Graduate Poster
 
cjnewson88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,676
So no go on the Christchurch one?
__________________
Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed.
Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88
cjnewson88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 05:03 PM   #1192
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,455
Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
I just remembered about this;

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2VYH

Although obviously not from the floor sections, I could still try and get a scraping of paint and send it over
Hmmm. The piece to the right ain't perimeter, neither.
It might come handy to see if core steel, or wherever that came from, was also painted with Tnemec, or what else that was.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 11:14 PM   #1193
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Spanx, Oystein: You can be right, guys, this sculpture can be made of floor trusses steel, judging e.g. from comparison with the newspapers "headlines" visible on the support of the first photo (not here, but in original photo of higher quality) (Previously, I saw only second photo, in which dimensions look larger in comparison with the man; the first photo seems to be more realistic, as for dimensions)





Steel pieces have L-shape, which they should have, dimensions seem to be roughly corresponding... only "little" problem is that they are really rusty, perhaps without any traces of paint.
But...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 10th January 2013 at 11:51 PM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 11:20 PM   #1194
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
...and here is this photoshopped picture, can we see some traces of red paint here?



I'm not sure...
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 11:37 PM   #1195
cjnewson88
Graduate Poster
 
cjnewson88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,676
From that site re. the Christchurch memorial, Looks like there's another bit of steel there;



What do the truss connectors look like? From this angle, the main memorial in the background shows a few connector bits sticking off it like the pieces in the foreground.
__________________
Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed.
Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88

Last edited by cjnewson88; 10th January 2013 at 11:39 PM.
cjnewson88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2013, 11:49 PM   #1196
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
cjnewson88: What is shown at the front beam as horizontal element, can be perhaps truss connector. But without any part of trusses.

But back to North Arlington 911 Memorial, which is more promising.

Here is a photo titled "NJ North Arlington gets beam from World Trade Center from Port Authority"



If this steel piece is the same as shown in the memorial, I'm again confused It's too big for floor truss. And compare it e.g. with the photo in post No. 1179, which should show typically entangled floor trusses...
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2013, 12:13 AM   #1197
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
On the other hand (and sorry for overloading this thread with images)....

Here is a screenshot from this video titled 9 11 Memorial at Holy Cross Cemetery 340 Ridge Rd., North Arlington, NJ.mp4 , time ca 0:14:



Judging from this screenshot, some elements still can be floor trusses, but more search/some inquiry is necessary...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 11th January 2013 at 12:34 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2013, 12:13 AM   #1198
Spanx
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,020
If you scroll down this link there is another piece. I have not read the link or watched any yt clips.


http://www.redknightsmc.com/memorial.py
Spanx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2013, 02:27 AM   #1199
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Hi Ivan and all,

In our search for a known LaClede primer sample, I copied this picture and sent it to NIST people, who referred me to the Port Authority, who referred me to Nancy Johnson, who has written to me twice, "Chris, the Port Authority does not have possession of this or any similar WTC steel." We seem to be at a dead end. In any event, I am wondering if the very best sample would not be from the WTC steel anyway, but a known sample from one of those collectors of samples of particles (some of these scientists have collections of dust or chips or whatever numbering in the hundreds of thousands and use them for forensic analysis). But to my knowledge, even Millette has been unable to find anyone with a LaClede primer sample when asking people for them at the conferences where he gave a lecture on his dust study. I'm not sure if any other leads exist.
Chris,
I just recollect that Judy Woods showed us a "Gallery of Recovered World Trade Center Steel at NIST", which includes an "unidentified" photo from my post 1179 or e.g. this image:



You wrote that NIST referred you to Port Authority, but this hall or whatever very probably belongs to NIST. There are many floor trusses visible, perhaps NIST still possesses some samples? I think that Jim Millette should ask them
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2013, 06:11 AM   #1200
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
So... how to get to these structures? A lot of them are out in the open. Some are traveling exhibits. If any of them are nearby, it may well be OK to photograph them from a distance, then just go up to them, touch them, have a little silent time at the memorial to honor our dead, then look for some red paint on one of those little trusses. Photograph closeup the area you find, then scrape a bit of the paint into a baggy. I personally know one person who has already done this at one of these memorials. However, be aware that technically, doing this may be illegal, so you may be taking on some risk if you do this. If you do want to take on this risk, be sure to date the sample, don't touch the sample with your bare hands, and be sure the photo clearly shows where the sample comes from.

Is there anything I am missing with this suggestion of how to get a possible LaClede primer sample from the WTC debris?
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:42 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.