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Tags Boston Marathon bombing , Dzhokhar Tsarnaev , Tamerlan Tsarnaev

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Old 20th April 2013, 08:53 PM   #121
newyorkguy
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The presumption of innocence isn't there to protect the guilty, it's to protect the falsely accused. It's a cornerstone to our system of laws.

A right has to be absolute -- extended to everyone accused of a crime -- or it isn't a right.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:09 PM   #122
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Well you have just proven my point, blow **** up and you lose your rights. There is no doubt he is guilty, so I see no problem in expediting the justice.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:12 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Well you have just proven my point, blow **** up and you lose your rights. There is no doubt he is guilty, so I see no problem in expediting the justice.
What would be your procedure for that?
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:25 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
If the guy confessed and was caught escaping what makes you think there is any doubt we have the right person?
He confessed?

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There is no doubt, the guy is a foreign immigrant that came here, I assume for a better chance at getting an education since he was in college, and blew up pedestrians.
He was 8 - he probably came because his parents did.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
He forfeits any rights he might have had being a law abiding non citizen.
But he was a citizen.

Quote:
I'm skeptical of people who get lost in the details looking at bark on the trees in the forest when plain common sense will suffice.
I'm not against common sense but I wonder where you are getting your facts - I admit I haven't followed this closely. It does seem like there is plenty of evidence to secure a conviction, and no reason not to follow that process.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:26 PM   #125
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Tragedy seems to turn some people into morons.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:42 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Well you have just proven my point, blow **** up and you lose your rights. There is no doubt he is guilty, so I see no problem in expediting the justice.

The problem in skipping the legal process is twofold. First, if you establish the principle that a citizen can "lose" their right to the presumption of innocence and a fair trial then they're no longer rights, are they?

Second. if you even once give some government official the power to take away someone's legal rights -- because we all agree the defendant is guilty anyway -- then you've made it possible for a future government official to take away someone's legal rights in a case where maybe everybody doesn't agree the defendant is guilty.

This is how people lose their rights. It always starts with stripping away the rights of the least popular.

Anyway, I have trouble believing someone is seriously arguing this. The bottom line is, there is zero chance that this is going to happen. So in that sense this argument is entirely abstract.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:52 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
No, I didn't get that he was a citizen but even so, if I kill someone then I don't deserve my rights as a law abiding citizen. If I can't play fair why should I expect fair treatment?

Not really surprised, but I wonder how generous they would be with their prayers if it was one of their family or friends that was hurt or killed?
Jodie, do you not believe that the USA or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is capable of fairly trying a person accused of heinous crimes, and if he is found guilty, of punishing him? Having rights doesn't absolve a criminal from punishment, if that's what's worrying you. People whose friends or family were killed will not be on the jury, because civilised states impose justice and punishment and avoid any encouragement of personal vengeance and retribution, an understandable desire for which can be an obstacle to finding the truth.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:54 PM   #128
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In the strictest sense we actually don't know the man police arrested Friday evening in Watertown was involved in the Boston Marathon bombings at all. Think about.

Jodie were you there? You saw the two brothers plant the backpacks and then saw those same two backpacks blow up moments later? You're certain that one of those two men is the same as the one taken into custody Friday night?

What do we know as opposed to what we've been told. Please don't misunderstand me. I too believe the police have the right man. But I don't know that. How could I know? I wasn't there.

I'm fairly confident that the police do have the right suspect and if they do have the wrong man, because he will be afforded the basic protections our system offers, that fact will become known and he will be either released or acquitted.
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Old 20th April 2013, 10:23 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
Graham is just pandering to the loons in his red neck of the woods.
Bingo! He's seen other senators get bushwhacked from the right and has no desire to be the next.
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Old 21st April 2013, 01:06 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The one that has always amused me is consecutive life sentences. I guess it makes sense if you believe in reincarnation.
It makes sense if a life sentence is not really a life sentence. If they have to be served sequentially, it does keep the bad guys in the hole much longer.
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Old 21st April 2013, 01:07 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
I'm not worried that Tsarnaev hasn't been Mirandized at this time, as there's a precedent for questioning a suspect without reading him his rights if public safety is at stake, and there's a plausible case to be made for it. I couldn't agree more however that he should be given due process and tried in a criminal court. It will be messy and extremely frustrating given that there seems to be very little doubt about his guilt, but in my view he's won something if we allow ourselves to allow ourselves to be intimidated into giving up the rule of law.
Hear! Hear!
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Old 21st April 2013, 01:09 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
In line with this, I keep wondering about Dzhokhar Tsarnaev lying under the tarp in the boat in the back of a Watertown house on Friday.
As an aside, I wonder how much that boat will sell for on ebay after it is released by the cops.
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Old 21st April 2013, 01:10 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Why not just send him home to Russia and let them handle it as they see fit? If he forfeits his rights here then he doesn't need to be here.
How would you feel if he ended up in Chechnya and was greeted as a hero? You really haven't thought this one through.
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Old 21st April 2013, 01:50 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
No, I didn't get that he was a citizen but even so, if I kill someone then I don't deserve my rights as a law abiding citizen. If I can't play fair why should I expect fair treatment?
Are there not constitutional rights regarding due process of law and all that?

Whether people are guilty or not legal proceedings are still supposed to be based on due process of law rather than, "let's lynch the scumbag!"
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Old 21st April 2013, 02:16 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I guess driving through neighborhoods and dropping bombs off on the street and hiding in a boat in someone's backyard wasn't a tip off? I believe they got the right person.
That is irrelevant. You either have due process or you don't. Lots of countries bundle people in a truck and you never see them again. Who wants to live in a country like that?

Of course the indications are that he is 99.99% guilty so why worry about following due process? I can only assume you are playing Devil's Advocate for habeas corpus.
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Old 21st April 2013, 04:36 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Tragedy seems to turn some people into morons.
New Sig
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Old 21st April 2013, 04:54 AM   #137
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To deny him due process allows allows law enforcement not to do a proper job of investigation.

They have him in jail now, so they have to come up with proof that he needs to stay there.

If they can just throw him in Gitmo and be done with him, there is less incentive to make sure that they have covered this thing from every angle.
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Old 21st April 2013, 07:31 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What would be your procedure for that?

I would take him somewhere for the interrogation, here, Guantanamo, doesn't really matter. Give him just one iota of hope that if he co-operates things might not go so badly for him.

His youth, inexperience, and fear will get the best of him without too much pressure. He will tell everything. Then we follow whatever standard procedure is in place for these situations.

Of course, if he isn't too naive then he will see the big picture and how things really work. If he is smart he'll apply games theory to get the best possible outcome for himself. The best he can hope for is a nash equilibrium in what appears to be a zero sum game. I certainly wouldn't trust an attorney to do it for me.
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Old 21st April 2013, 07:34 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The problem in skipping the legal process is twofold. First, if you establish the principle that a citizen can "lose" their right to the presumption of innocence and a fair trial then they're no longer rights, are they?

Second. if you even once give some government official the power to take away someone's legal rights -- because we all agree the defendant is guilty anyway -- then you've made it possible for a future government official to take away someone's legal rights in a case where maybe everybody doesn't agree the defendant is guilty.

This is how people lose their rights. It always starts with stripping away the rights of the least popular.

Anyway, I have trouble believing someone is seriously arguing this. The bottom line is, there is zero chance that this is going to happen. So in that sense this argument is entirely abstract.
You lose your rights when you go through the trial process and are found to be guilty. This guy is already guilty, I can't see how a good outcome can result from this point on. Going through the legal process would be going through the motions. It won't mean anything in this guy's case. Execution or permanent incarceration will result whether we go through the legal process, or not, slowly or expediently. In other words, it's a done deal. It depends on what this guy perceives as the better outcome and how he, or his attorney's, play this as to how it turns out.
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Last edited by Jodie; 21st April 2013 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 21st April 2013, 07:47 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The police chief in Watertown Mass told CNN that a helicopter-mounted thermal imager was used to verify that the second Marathon bombing suspect was in a boat in a Watertown backyard and that he was alive, moving. The Watertown Chief said shots were exchanged with the suspect as officers moved in. A police negotiator, in the second floor of the home overlooking the boat in the backyard, then attempted to get the suspect to surrender. Which he finally did. Chief Ed Deveau said officers ordered the suspect to stand up and open his shirt because they feared he might be wearing an explosive device. He was not. Link
That doesn't appear there.
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Old 21st April 2013, 07:52 AM   #141
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If I were in this guy's position, I would play dumb. I would say that my brother told me that the Russian revolutionaries were coming for our family if there was no follow through with the plan. My brother couldn't do it alone so I helped him even though I didn't want to do it, and that I had regrets. If I reported it to the FBI the revolutionaries would have killed us all anyway, I felt I had no choice.
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Old 21st April 2013, 07:58 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think rights are earned and shouldn't be automatically bestowed in a case like this, there was a confession and multiple witnesses. Coming over here to take advantage of what our society offers and then blowing us to kingdom come for who knows what reason, he forfeits.
No. He doesn't. He is entitled to those rights, no matter WHAT he's been accused of. If we did that, our justice systems fails, completely. We've now become what we abhor. No go ma'am.

As much as I want to see this scum hung from a tall tree, we still have to give him his due process, and respect his rights.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:01 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
This guy is already guilty...
I asked you how you know that, that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is in fact guilty?

It's a serious question and I'd still like to know. Because it goes directly to the core of the concept of presumption of innocence. You're ready to ship this man off to be executed or imprisoned for life based on a set of facts that you have no way of knowing are true. You seem unaware that your presumption of guilt is based on media reports and your own understandable anger at the events.

Don't misunderstand me. I too believe Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be the second bomber. But I don't know that he is. I can envision a scenario where the facts may turn out not to be as they appear on the surface. That's why I want to see him tried in a court of law. As I know he certainly will be.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:01 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Why not just send him home to Russia and let them handle it as they see fit? If he forfeits his rights here then he doesn't need to be here.
Because of the simple fact that he committed an atrocious crime here, and as such, he needs to be held responsible HERE. Not in Russia.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:06 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You lose your rights when you go through the trial process and are found to be guilty. This guy is already guilty, I can't see how a good outcome can result from this point on. Going through the legal process would be going through the motions. It won't mean anything in this guy's case. ...
Wow! Please be careful. Is the rule of law in the USA in more danger from within than from without?
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:06 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
No, I didn't get that he was a citizen but even so, if I kill someone then I don't deserve my rights as a law abiding citizen.
No, you DO deserve those RIGHTS. That's why they're called RIGHTS. Not options, or anything else. RIGHTS. Nowhere in the BOR does it say that you've got to be a law abiding citizen to enjoy those rights. Especially the 5th Amendment right to a fair trial, and to be innocent before proven guilty.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
If I can't play fair why should I expect fair treatment?
That's why we're America, and not some uncivilized third world country.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Not really surprised, but I wonder how generous they would be with their prayers if it was one of their family or friends that was hurt or killed?
Knowing many Christians the way I do, I doubt it would change much.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:09 AM   #147
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If convicted he should be made to run a marathon, and be blown up just before the finishing line.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:11 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
MSNBC is reporting that Senator Lindsay Graham is saying we shouldn't put the surviving Boston Marathon bomber on trial and should instead ship him off to Gitmo for interrogation and indefinite detention without a trial or access to lawyers.

What are your thoughts on this?

Personally I'm against it. I think we tread a dangerous path when we start declaring some crimes to be above the normal legal procedures.
Drone strikes on hin are the clear answer.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:34 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkguy
The police chief in Watertown Mass told CNN that a helicopter-mounted thermal imager was used to verify that the second Marathon bombing suspect was in a boat in a Watertown backyard and that he was alive, moving. The Watertown Chief said shots were exchanged with the suspect as officers moved in. A police negotiator, in the second floor of the home overlooking the boat in the backyard, then attempted to get the suspect to surrender. Which he finally did. Chief Ed Deveau said officers ordered the suspect to stand up and open his shirt because they feared he might be wearing an explosive device. He was not. Link
Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
That doesn't appear there.
What doesn't appear there? The interview with Chief Deveau? I don't think I said it did, did I? The link was to a thermal image from the helicopter, a Massachusetts State Police helicopter I believe.

As I mentioned, Deveau was interviewed on the air several times by CNN. I watched this, I didn't read it. For some reason I could only find a written report by CNN on Deavau's interview as to events surrounding the initial confrontation with officers early Friday morning. Not his description of the capture of the younger brother, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, on Friday evening.

At any rate, I did find a description of that arrest in an LA Times story:
Quote:
When Tsarnaev didn't respond to the negotiator, police began to throw in "flashbangs," which are explosive devices used to stun or disorient people. "We continued to lob those in, at least three to four times," Deveau said. "Eventually it worked, because after about 20 minutes, he showed himself." Afraid that Tsarnaev was going to detonate a suicide vest, authorities told him to lift his shirt. When he did, they saw he wasn't wearing any explosives. From his porch, [Bob Glatz, 46, who lives in a third-floor condominium on Franklin Street] saw police begin to move in.
Link

I had seen Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz interviewed on CNN where he questioned the accuracy of the reported scenario for the arrest of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. With some justification I suppose, because law enforcement sometimes tends to overstate the resistance it meets when making an arrest. So Dershowitz being a defense lawyer naturally had some skepticism. Second, it wasn't clear I don't think whether Chief Deveau's account was based on his being at the scene or on second-hand information.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:42 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
No. He doesn't. He is entitled to those rights, no matter WHAT he's been accused of. If we did that, our justice systems fails, completely. We've now become what we abhor. No go ma'am.

As much as I want to see this scum hung from a tall tree, we still have to give him his due process, and respect his rights.
Our justice system fails on many levels already every single day. I'ld be more concerned about the innocent person of lower socioeconomic status accused of a crime who can only afford a public defender, an attorney that may or may not put forth any effort to provide adequate representation, that isn't fair or equal as it is.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:43 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I asked you how you know that, that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is in fact guilty?

It's a serious question and I'd still like to know. Because it goes directly to the core of the concept of presumption of innocence. You're ready to ship this man off to be executed or imprisoned for life based on a set of facts that you have no way of knowing are true. You seem unaware that your presumption of guilt is based on media reports and your own understandable anger at the events.

Don't misunderstand me. I too believe Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be the second bomber. But I don't know that he is. I can envision a scenario where the facts may turn out not to be as they appear on the surface. That's why I want to see him tried in a court of law. As I know he certainly will be.

Mind you I am not following this as closely as some of you, I had heard there was a confession, that they had video tape and witnesses.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:47 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
What doesn't appear there? The interview with Chief Deveau? I don't think I said it did, did I? The link was to a thermal image from the helicopter, a Massachusetts State Police helicopter I believe.

As I mentioned, Deveau was interviewed on the air several times by CNN. I watched this, I didn't read it. For some reason I could only find a written report by CNN on Deavau's interview as to events surrounding the initial confrontation with officers early Friday morning. Not his description of the capture of the younger brother, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, on Friday evening.

At any rate, I did find a description of that arrest in an LA Times story:
Link

I had seen Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz interviewed on CNN where he questioned the accuracy of the reported scenario for the arrest of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. With some justification I suppose, because law enforcement sometimes tends to overstate the resistance it meets when making an arrest. So Dershowitz being a defense lawyer naturally had some skepticism. Second, it wasn't clear I don't think whether Chief Deveau's account was based on his being at the scene or on second-hand information.
Thank you. I wasn't aware that he did actually surrender, but it appears that he did. Interesting. Not that it will help him any in court.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:47 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Because of the simple fact that he committed an atrocious crime here, and as such, he needs to be held responsible HERE. Not in Russia.
In order to over tax an already overstressed justice system both fiscally and literally? In my mind justice would be served to send him back to the country he was born in. That way he can figure out if his actions were truly justified based on his experiences with the way that society functions moving forward.
I don't think even the KGB, or whatever passes for secret service over there, would be comfortable giving him a free pass.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:49 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Wow! Please be careful. Is the rule of law in the USA in more danger from within than from without?
Sure you do, you are no longer free to walk the streets and do what you please. You are either incarcerated, or in some states, receive the death penalty. That's a forfeiture of rights no matter what you want to call it.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:51 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
No, you DO deserve those RIGHTS. That's why they're called RIGHTS. Not options, or anything else. RIGHTS. Nowhere in the BOR does it say that you've got to be a law abiding citizen to enjoy those rights. Especially the 5th Amendment right to a fair trial, and to be innocent before proven guilty.



That's why we're America, and not some uncivilized third world country.



Knowing many Christians the way I do, I doubt it would change much.
Rights are bestowed and based on whether you play by the rules. The right to a fair trial only means that depending on the results do you continue to enjoy those rights freely, in essence they are taken away from you.

We are rapidly on our way to becoming a third world country from an economic stand point, in case you didn't notice.

Christian charity is usually only extended in direct proportion to the monetary and emotional cost for the said christian.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:52 AM   #156
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A few years ago there was a case in the US where a car ran into and killed some pedestrians.
Enraged bystanders dragged the driver and passenger out of the car and beat them to death.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:54 AM   #157
triforcharity
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Our justice system fails on many levels already every single day. I'ld be more concerned about the innocent person of lower socioeconomic status accused of a crime who can only afford a public defender, an attorney that may or may not put forth any effort to provide adequate representation, that isn't fair or equal as it is.
Our justice system is not perfect. There isn't one on the planet that is.

A public defender may not put forth 100% effort, true, but then the defendant has grounds for an appeal and overturning of his conviction on ineffective or inadequate council, which then a conflict attorney will be appointed, which is usually a private attorney, and the state picks up the bill.

But what you're suggesting happen goes completely against our entire basis of justice. It completely circumvents the judicial process and advocates a "lynch mob" basically, where there is no due process, no rights, nothing. I'm absolutely appalled that anyone would suggest we adopt that type of system. Somalia has a similar system.
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Old 21st April 2013, 08:55 AM   #158
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As an aside, the USG is putting the final touches on charges for this scum. They are most likely going to officially file charges today.

Not State charges, but federal charges.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...g-suspect?lite
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Old 21st April 2013, 09:01 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
In order to over tax an already overstressed justice system both fiscally and literally?
Irrelevant. That is the price that we pay to protect the rights of ALL who live in this country.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
In my mind justice would be served to send him back to the country he was born in.
And what about the victims here, who now get no justice, no closure. Nothing.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That way he can figure out if his actions were truly justified based on his experiences with the way that society functions moving forward.
I don't think even the KGB, or whatever passes for secret service over there, would be comfortable giving him a free pass.
This just amazes me. Wow. I'm really hoping you work nowhere near our justice system. This cannot happen.
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Old 21st April 2013, 09:01 AM   #160
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Sure you do, you are no longer free to walk the streets and do what you please. You are either incarcerated, or in some states, receive the death penalty. That's a forfeiture of rights no matter what you want to call it.
If you are subject to the death penalty in the USA for walking in the streets, I can understand your concern about the state of things in your country. That is indeed a "forfeiture of rights". I had no idea things have gone that far! I hope you get a fair trial before they strap you in the the Chair for such an offence.
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
We are rapidly on our way to becoming a third world country from an economic stand point, in case you didn't notice.
I must admit I didn't. From here on the other side of the Atlantic the USA still looks like a mighty economic empire.

Last edited by Craig B; 21st April 2013 at 09:46 AM.
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