|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#3961 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
|
My apologize for this ot post. I feel that my contributions have moved the discussion in the wrong direction. I'm going to excuse myself from the thread.
So, my apologies to everyone but I don't think I can be helpful here. Good luck and all the best to everyone. I mean that sincerely. ![]() |
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3962 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,994
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3963 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3964 |
Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
|
|
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher "We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3965 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,221
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3966 |
Nap, interrupted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,133
|
|
__________________
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3967 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
|
The plot s^Hthickens.
|
__________________
"It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3968 |
Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
|
|
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher "We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3969 |
Nap, interrupted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,133
|
|
__________________
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3970 |
Miss Schoolteacher
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
|
|
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3971 |
Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
|
|
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher "We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3972 |
Student
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 44
|
I'm just curious - how is it corroboration? PZ Myers says that two women have come forward and said these things. Two anonymous women. We have absolutely zero from these women themselves. For all we know, Myers is making this whole thing up to get back at Shermer, it's no secret he doesn't like him. If these women would come forward and make their cases, then we would have evidence. Until then, all this is hearsay.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3973 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,221
|
It's just an odd phrasing. If one did not consent, one could just say "I did not consent", and it's unambiguously a case of rape if the accusation is true. Saying that one could not consent is vaguer, and it's habit with me to suspect that when a speaker is being vague that something important is being concealed by the vagueness. It seems like a construction one might use if one did actually consent, but believes that consent should not count. Or, as I said, it could just be odd phrasing.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3974 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
Neither dissent not consent resolves the issue that I have a question with. What does it mean "coerced me into a position"? I was trying to picture some physical position one could not scream or cry out from. Others seem to think the meaning was "got me drunk" which makes sense but brings up other questions. Unless someone is exploiting your known drinking problem or slipping you a roofie, how does one coerce you into becoming drunk?
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3975 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
Sure, but how is Shermer coercing at that point?
I am of the unquestionable opinion taking advantage of an intoxicated woman is rape. Don't put me in the victim blaming category because I don't belong there. If a woman is drunk, a gentleman protects her, he doesn't take advantage of her and later blame her for his assault. On the other hand, I can't blame every guy who has sex with an intoxicated woman if they were drinking together. Every single case is not clearly victimizing. People drink. They have sex. It happens in lots of non-abusive situations. Where the question comes in here in particular in this case is how is Shermer to blame for a choice to drink? Maybe he was. But I'm having trouble with the claim as it is stated. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3976 |
Student
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 44
|
Maybe someone just keeps buying drinks even after you want to be done, but drink out of some misguided sense of politeness, or you just want a few drinks but they buy strong ones without telling you, and as you get drunker they keep putting drinks in front of you. Drinks and smooth talking can get someone to do something they might not want to (or might regret later).
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3977 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 41,886
|
I keep getting 503 errors (service unavailable) from the last two FTB links.
|
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift". |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3978 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,994
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3979 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
So an adult female is a child or what here? The implication is rather insulting to women, IMO.
Like I said, taking advantage of an intoxicated person is wrong and the intoxicated person does not deserve any blame for that. But blaming the guy for putting drinks in front of you, I have a harder time with that part of the "I was a victim" in the story. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3980 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,305
|
RandFan is a very thoughtful member. I took his example of the Duke LaCrosse scandal as a cautionary tale of forming a lynch mob before all (or as much as possible) of the evidence is in. He has been very sensitive of the victims and I didn't see a single accusation or even subtle innuendo that the victims were lying. I think you are painting him with the wrong brush.
Este |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3981 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3982 |
Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
|
|
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher "We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3983 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,221
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3984 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
I think RandFan's point is that we shouldn't assume anything. The point of the justice system is that we're skeptical of the accuser, and we have to be, especially in cases where we have an emotional reaction to the very accusation, like in sexual assault cases. We want to protect victims and that's great, but in our zeal to do so we must also avoid making new victims out of the accused.
Anyone can accuse anyone else. But that's not enough to convict. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3985 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3986 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
|
|
__________________
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3987 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
Yes I did. And the disclaimer notwithstanding, it is evidence that the JREF acknowledges that social gatherings organized by TAM attendees for fellow attendees are an important part of the TAM experience.
Maybe you could first point out that that actually happened? From this blog post by Greta Christina, based on testimony of one of the people reporting it, there was no evidence at all of actual picture taking. And it was not a mirror on a stick, but a camera on a monopod. You might be more careful in researching an old story before you help destroy a promising political career. ![]() But given that this behavior creeped out other attendees, yes, he should have been at least talked to by the organization and made clear this behavior is unwanted. And there should be a paper trail of the handling of the incident. The attendees should feel safe during the conference. CFI can't outright conclude anything was a crime. They did suspend Ben Radford. So they acknowledged the validity of (part of) Karen Szollnow's story. Did you see Ashley's video, or did you also get distracted by the parrot? She said that the organization talked to several witnesses and to JimBob, and they all corroborated her story. If Ashley egregiously lied in that video about the handling of the "incident", we would know by now. You did so right here: The "incidents" you're talking about constitute sexual harassment and/or assault. Those are crimes. But if you think I am harassing you, feel free to file a police report, or to sue me. I'll even disclose to you my full name and address for the purpose. ![]() No I'm not mixing up again. If TAM feels responsible of what goes around TAM n, they also feel responsible of what goes around TAM n+1. TAM has a responsibility towards the TAM attendees, not toward JimBob's colleagues. First make a case that somebody doesn't feel safe by someone else titty flashing. Anyway, there's quite a chasm between someone titty flashing (at most a victimless misdemeanor) and someone feeling up someone else's skirt (which has a definite victim). |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3988 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,994
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3989 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,216
|
Yes, "please tell me exactly what happened so I can objectively determine for myself whether calling what happened a sexual assault is hyperbole on your part" doesn't seem to me like it would roll very well off the tongue in that situation.
On the other hand, this seems like an odd nit that Kevin is picking. Surely guessing, upon reading the anonymous allegation of sexual assault, that it's the same individual who personally told you earlier of her own sexual assault by the same perpetrator, is the interpretation that's most charitable to Shermer - after all, the alternative is that he's (allegedly) done this more than once! |
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3990 |
Sum of all evils tm
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 25.8333° N, 77.9000° W
Posts: 24,971
|
|
__________________
He's back!
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3991 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,829
|
|
__________________
45 es un titere |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3992 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3993 |
psychic reader
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kansas USA
Posts: 1,811
|
Looks like both the links referring to Krauss have been removed.
|
__________________
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." —Alan Greenspan |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3994 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3995 |
Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
|
I want to second what Delphi is saying. I have personally been told about similar experiences by two people I know (and they haven't been the topic of any discussion in this thread) about how they were sexually assaulted at skeptic conferences in recent years.
They told me this information in confidence, and I didn't bother to ask for titillating details. But suffice it to say what I was told pretty much fits the definition of sexual assault. |
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher "We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3996 |
psychic reader
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kansas USA
Posts: 1,811
|
|
__________________
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." —Alan Greenspan |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3997 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3998 |
Student
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 44
|
What a bizarre thing to say. I've had many times where I've been drinking, say to myself I'm going to stop. and a friend comes up with a drink. Guess what - down it goes. And that was when I (a man) was in my 20s and 30s. Pretty much gave it up in my 40s except for one time at a convention where a coworker kept buying drinks. The music and conversation was great, so I just kept drinking. NExt morning was not fun. **** like that happens. If you feel insulted, that's your problem. Nobody is immune to making poor decisions when drinking.
I have to edit that I was responding to the first part. I mostly agree with the second, except to say that we are all responsible for our own decisions as well. Not blame, just responsibility. If someone takes advantage of you they have the responsibility for their actions, not you. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3999 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,858
|
Here's the thing, a person is intoxicated, that's a condition. A guy sexually assaults her. That's an act. He acted, she didn't. He bears 100% of the guilt.
A drink is in front of you, you drink it, that's an act. You acted. And unless someone slipped a roofie in it, you made that decision. I don't find evil in the guy who poured the drink, sorry. It might be a fine line, it could be a difference in philosophy, but if you can't say no because of social pressure or just bad decision making, you are still the one that acted. Take some responsibility. If after all that drinking you got in your car and killed someone, would you still be saying, it wasn't your fault because someone kept filling the glass? I don't think we are that far apart here. The unnamed woman put all the blame on Shermer for her intoxication. If it turns out this is his conscious, purposeful, recurring plan, I might reconsider. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#4000 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,292
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
|
|