Is the challenge dead?

The challange

IXP said:
I miss the days when Kramer was in charge. The Challenge was alive and well back then, and provided much entertainment.

IXP
Click to expand...

I want to take the test, filled out the application form months but have not heard back.
I am claiming that dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state, and both dreams and telepathy tend to symbolize, thus need to be interpreted. I am also claiming that there is a threshold of intensity below which you don't get it, somewhat akin to light or sound intensity.
Here we have three parameters: the sending intensity, the receiver's ability to recall the dream in detail, and of course interpretation. Here I might add that the sender may have some other influences acting on his/her brain, such as an unusual location, some personal issues, toothache, divorce etc..
If I recall correctly, I read about a 70-75% success rate of these tests, which in my opinion is sucess, considering the above factors.
If I would take test, I would want to be asleep at home and could not care less where the sender is located. I would want to be sleep, and I would want to submit my own dream interpretation by any means specified by you.
Yours truly
Kathie Bondar
[email protected]
 
Kathie Bondar said:
I am claiming that dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state
Click to expand...
What test protocol did you use to convince yourself of this claim?

How did you establish the chance accuracy rate, what was your success criteria, and by how much did your actual accuracy exceed it?
 
Kathie Bondar said:
I want to take the test, filled out the application form months but have not heard back.
I am claiming that dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state, and both dreams and telepathy tend to symbolize, thus need to be interpreted. I am also claiming that there is a threshold of intensity below which you don't get it, somewhat akin to light or sound intensity.
Here we have three parameters: the sending intensity, the receiver's ability to recall the dream in detail, and of course interpretation. Here I might add that the sender may have some other influences acting on his/her brain, such as an unusual location, some personal issues, toothache, divorce etc..
If I recall correctly, I read about a 70-75% success rate of these tests, which in my opinion is sucess, considering the above factors.
If I would take test, I would want to be asleep at home and could not care less where the sender is located. I would want to be sleep, and I would want to submit my own dream interpretation by any means specified by you.
Yours truly
Kathie Bondar
[email protected]
Click to expand...

If you dream that somebody is Jesus's astral twin, how would you verify success?

For those who haven't met Kathie yet:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265328
 
Kathie Bondar said:
I want to take the test, filled out the application form months but have not heard back.
I am claiming that dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state, and both dreams and telepathy tend to symbolize, thus need to be interpreted. I am also claiming that there is a threshold of intensity below which you don't get it, somewhat akin to light or sound intensity.
Here we have three parameters: the sending intensity, the receiver's ability to recall the dream in detail, and of course interpretation. Here I might add that the sender may have some other influences acting on his/her brain, such as an unusual location, some personal issues, toothache, divorce etc..
If I recall correctly, I read about a 70-75% success rate of these tests, which in my opinion is sucess, considering the above factors.
If I would take test, I would want to be asleep at home and could not care less where the sender is located. I would want to be sleep, and I would want to submit my own dream interpretation by any means specified by you.
Yours truly
Kathie Bondar
[email protected]
Click to expand...
If that's what you wrote on your application form it's no wonder JREF are taking a long time getting back to you. It's difficult to tease out from it exactly what your claim is, let alone how you proved it to yourself and intend to demonstrate it to win the million.

A suitable test protocol needs to

1. Methodically eliminate all explanations for the results other than the claim

2. Be practical, i.e. not require large sums of money or large amounts of time

3. Set a success criteria in advance that is clearly significantly higher than the expected chance result

4. Produce results which are self evident, i.e. no judgement or interpretation should be needed.

For example if my claim was that I could receive telepathic messages whilst dreaming I would have tested it using a protocol like the following, and have made quite sure that I could consistently reach the success criteria, before even submitting my claim.

Required:

- a set of 5 Zener cards

- 2 clipboards, each with a sheet of paper, an envelope and a pen. The papers should be pre-printed with a table of two columns. The first column should be pre-printed with the numbers 1 to 5, the second column should be blank and headed 'Zener card'.

- a sender (selected by the claimant)

- an observer.

Setup:

Room A containing a bed, one clipboard, and a chair for the observer

Room B containing a desk and chair, the other clipboard, a second chair for the observer, and the Zener cards, which the observer should shuffle and place face down in a row on the desk

1. The claimant enters Room A and stays in it for the duration of the test. The sender enters Room B and stays in it for the duration of the test. The observer is free to move between the rooms

2. The claimant goes to sleep

3. The observer stays with the claimant until rapid eye movements indicate that he/she has started dreaming and then notifies the sender that he/she should look at the first Zener card

4. The sender should turn over the first Zener card and write its identity in the first row of the table. He/she should then concentrate on it for, say, 1 minute, attempting to transmit it telepathically to the claimant

5. The claimant is then woken by the observer and fills in the first row of his/her own table with the identity of the card they believe they received telepathically whilst dreaming.

6. Repeat steps 2 - 5 for the other four Zener cards

7. When all 5 card identities have been telepathically transmitted whilst the claimant is dreaming the claimant and sender then seal their paper in the envelope, write their name on it and give it to the observer.

End of test.

The observer, claimant and volunteer then gather in Room B, and the observer unseals the envelopes. The number of matches between the rows in the two tables is noted.

The expected chance result would be, on average, 1 card correct. A reasonable success criteria for the preliminary test would probably be the identities of at least 4 cards correct.
Click to expand...

Have you tested yourself using this kind of protocol, Kathie? If not then you have no grounds for thinking you have the ability you claim, let alone for expecting anyone else to think so. Until and unless you can produce consistently better than chance results in a test like this the best explanation of your perception that you receive telepathic messages when you dream is the usual cognitive biases that have fooled so many people before you into thinking they have a paranormal ability when they have not.
 
Last edited:
Kathie Bondar said:
I am claiming that dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state, and both dreams and telepathy tend to symbolize, thus need to be interpreted. I am also claiming that there is a threshold of intensity below which you don't get it, somewhat akin to light or sound intensity.
Click to expand...

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Kathie sounds perfectly nice, with a claim that sounds too vague to test, but which should be good for at least 9 months of back-and-forth in the forum. Whatever protocol one might devise to test such a claim, how could it possibly ever capture the subtle nuance of the symbolism of dream-telepathy, and the lower-end limits of same? The protocol suggested by Pixel is straightforward and reasonable, but it only accounts for direct dream-telepathy, not symbolic telepathy subject to interpretation.

In short, Pixel's protocol tests a claim that is falsifiable, and which will hence, ipso facto, be unacceptable to Katherine. Although unqualified to evaluate Katherine's mental state, and prohibited by forum rules from giving mho about same, I suggest that one might follow the link posted by Professor Yaffle above, and draw one's own conclusions.

All that having been said, I'm deeply disappointed about the JREF's decision to stop posting applications and correspondence with claimants. As I and others have said more than once, that's what first brought me to this forum. Reading the applications and claimant correspondence was not only entertaining, but educational, per the "E" in "JREF."
 
Last edited:
That's you Vulcan's excuse for everything! "I can't have emotions because I'm Vulcan." "I can't wash the dishes because I'm Vulcan." "I can't pay my half of the rent because money means nothing to Vulcans." I'm sick of it!
 
Klaymore said:
Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Kathie sounds perfectly nice, with a claim that sounds too vague to test, but which should be good for at least 9 months of back-and-forth in the forum. Whatever protocol one might devise to test such a claim, how could it possibly ever capture the subtle nuance of the symbolism of dream-telepathy, and the lower-end limits of same? The protocol suggested by Pixel is straightforward and reasonable, but it only accounts for direct dream-telepathy, not symbolic telepathy subject to interpretation.

In short, Pixel's protocol tests a claim that is falsifiable, and which will hence, ipso facto, be unacceptable to Katherine. Although unqualified to evaluate Katherine's mental state, and prohibited by forum rules from giving mho about same, I suggest that one might follow the link posted by Professor Yaffle above, and draw one's own conclusions.

All that having been said, I'm deeply disappointed about the JREF's decision to stop posting applications and correspondence with claimants. As I and others have said more than once, that's what first brought me to this forum. Reading the applications and claimant correspondence was not only entertaining, but educational, per the "E" in "JREF."
Click to expand...
Your problem is that you have not defined telepathy. I have.
You want to test something you know very little of, and that mostly by hearsay. You seem to be expecting something like a telephone conversation. The phone rings, you talk and hang up.
I am saying that telepathy works differently, otherwise it would just be another telephone line. I am giving the basic outlines upon which hopefully some people will follow up and advance. If you have a problem with that, well, though.
 
Kathie Bondar said:
Your problem is that you have not defined telepathy. I have.
You want to test something you know very little of, and that mostly by hearsay. You seem to be expecting something like a telephone conversation. The phone rings, you talk and hang up.
I am saying that telepathy works differently, otherwise it would just be another telephone line. I am giving the basic outlines upon which hopefully some people will follow up and advance. If you have a problem with that, well, though.
Click to expand...
Telepathy is the transfer of information from one mind to another without the use of the usual known senses. In order to establish that it exists you need to demonstrate such a transfer of information under circumstances that preclude alternative explanations, including chance and intelligent guesswork. Have you done that? If so, you will be able to describe the test protocol you used. If not, you have no grounds for claiming that telepathy exists.
 
So far it's yet another case of "as a proof I can offer what was communicated to me telepathically, besides I have no reason to distrust them as they have shared and revealed ...". The supposed communication becomes then proof of other things ... sort of doubling the bet.

That's why a test protocol is needed. A telepathic communication from the future tells me that Kathie will continued (SIC) to insist on her claims and offer only her word of honour.
 
Kathie Bondar said:
I want to take the test, filled out the application form months but have not heard back.
I am claiming that dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state, and both dreams and telepathy tend to symbolize, thus need to be interpreted. I am also claiming that there is a threshold of intensity below which you don't get it, somewhat akin to light or sound intensity.
Here we have three parameters: the sending intensity, the receiver's ability to recall the dream in detail, and of course interpretation. Here I might add that the sender may have some other influences acting on his/her brain, such as an unusual location, some personal issues, toothache, divorce etc..
If I recall correctly, I read about a 70-75% success rate of these tests, which in my opinion is sucess, considering the above factors.
If I would take test, I would want to be asleep at home and could not care less where the sender is located. I would want to be sleep, and I would want to submit my own dream interpretation by any means specified by you.
Yours truly
Kathie Bondar
[email protected]
Click to expand...

dreams are telepathy in the sleeping state; how did you come about this little pearl of wisdom? It took me a moment for your words to sink in because as first I thought you were talking about a form of astral travel or even remote viewing. But you make no definitive claim. I even in my skepticism would have given you some credence if you had said in your sleep you have the ability to interact with people, specifying weather they themselves are awake or asleep. Allowing messages to pass between the two of you which you upon waking interpret. In not caring where they are located you imply that you have an infinite range-beside that most people don't believe in astral projection to begin with the average person doesn't even have awareness of their astral travel projection beyond a jerking falling back into their body before waking. And even those who notice that don't recall where they went much less have any distance to their travel beyond a few feet from their sleeping body. Your using the term sender implies you'd be the receiver of the message I take it for interpretation so again you imply either your strong enough to just pick up anyones thoughts directed toward you or that there are individuals who can send information in such a manner strong enough for you to pick up pointedly in your sleep. In a world filled with people where at any given time half is awake while the other half is sleeping and you can receive individual messages to interpret.....I'm all for the woo as they call it on this site and even I find your vagueness skeptical
 
Klaymore said:
All that having been said, I'm deeply disappointed about the JREF's decision to stop posting applications and correspondence with claimants. As I and others have said more than once, that's what first brought me to this forum. Reading the applications and claimant correspondence was not only entertaining, but educational, per the "E" in "JREF."
Click to expand...

That's why I actually came to the site myself to see what people were claiming to do and the testing but there is none that I have seen. Something once about a prize being awarded to a guy who made a computer that could tell the future was actually what led me to the site. Which by the way is not right as its people who are being tested I thought not a machine made by a person.
 
barefootgoddess said:
That's why I actually came to the site myself to see what people were claiming to do and the testing but there is none that I have seen. Something once about a prize being awarded to a guy who made a computer that could tell the future was actually what led me to the site. Which by the way is not right as its people who are being tested I thought not a machine made by a person.
Click to expand...

How the paranormal feat is demonstrated isn't important. Succeed and you get the prize whether by waving your hands mysteriously over a stopped wrist watch while chanting the lyrics to Bohemian Rhapsody or by merely flipping the power switch on your latest Belch-fire 500 Predict-o-matic invention.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I'm quite sure making a computer predict the future would qualify for the prize.
Click to expand...

I think she's referring to the April 1, 2008 award of the million dollar prize to Seth Raphael.

What? You mean Seth Raphael the fellow magician. And the same James Randi who Rick-Rolled his entire following on another April Fool's day?

People actually spread this around? It was a joke. Randi's not going to tell an audience, even at MIT, how a conjurer works his effect. The whole thing was a prank.
 
People with magic powers figured out that the challenge was rigged: The only way to win was to do something that was physically impossible.

Of course, this was no more than what they claimed to be able to do. It's just that most people don't actually insist that they really DO it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom