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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 4th October 2013, 03:11 PM   #41
Pope130
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My problem with the "Gand Conspiracy" involving virtualy every powerful person and agency in the US in a plot to kill the president and take over the government is this: If they already controled that many agencies, and had the power to get away with such a plot, they would already be the government. The man in the oval office would be irrelevant and there would be no need to kill him.

Last edited by Pope130; 4th October 2013 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 4th October 2013, 04:19 PM   #42
SpitfireIX
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Why, if the Powers That Be determined that the President must die, did they do so in full view of the public where it could be independently observed and recorded, in a way that was so very obviously a murder?

Food poisoning. Heart attack. Accident.

This is what I find so silly about the whole JFK assassination scenario as a conspiracy. It's not that the alleged conspirators chose the silliest way to shoot the President in public; it's that they chose the silliest way to get rid of him -- by shooting him in public.

Or, as has been pointed out in other threads, why not just take and leak a few pants-down photos to the press, and force JFK to resign in disgrace?
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Old 4th October 2013, 04:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Or, as has been pointed out in other threads, why not just take and leak a few pants-down photos to the press, and force JFK to resign in disgrace?
That's simpler than my alternative scenario: Wait till he goes off campus and eludes his protection detail and arrange for a jelous husband to catch him in the act. That way his family helps with the cover-up.
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Old 4th October 2013, 08:29 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
That's simpler than my alternative scenario: Wait till he goes off campus and eludes his protection detail and arrange for a jelous husband to catch him in the act. That way his family helps with the cover-up.
BRILLIANT!!

But where are the Ninjas?
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Old 4th October 2013, 10:44 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by riptor View Post
I have the issue, and have read your article. It is very well done. As someone who isn't into JFK conspiracies I thought it was very succinct in dealing with some of the most common conspiracy claims.
Thank you very much.

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Old 5th October 2013, 08:55 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Selection of a "patsy" - how do you prevent the patsy from having an airtight alibi (the conspirators would have looked awfully silly if LHO had been in the hospital that day for instance)

Ease of countering - this whole matter could have been stopped by three things:

1. The weather - rain would have caused them to use either a hard-top or to put the top on the convertible at a minimum - LHO or any other shooter would not have been able to get a shot;
2. Choice of vehicle - the choice of the convertible was JFK's idea, the secret Service wanted him in a hard-top, and JFK overruled them. Or was JFK in on it as well;
3. Different routes - any route other than through Dealy Plaza and LHO isn't going to be useful


The real scenario here is Oswald was a cooperating covert agent following orders from the start. He was manipulated as all the conspiracy evidence you so conveniently omit proves. Your arguments sound plausible but only because you dishonestly omit all the incriminating evidence that disproves them.

Oswald was most likely ordered into the lunch room where the plotters knew nobody would be as the president passed by and everybody's attention was on him. They screwed up when Depository secretary Carolyn Arnold happened to go to the lunch room water fountain at 12:25 and witnessed Oswald there.

The rest of what you write only makes sense if you ignore how much control was involved in the assassination by those who oversaw it.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Not sure where you keep getting this "pointed hunting round" nonsense from. The bullet in the photos and reports is a full metal jacket round. Hunters do NOT use FMJ rounds for hunting, they prefer to use ones that will deform and remain in the body doing maximum tissue damage.

The bullet recovered matches the type found in LHO's rifle.



Learn about the case before you argue it. Tomlinson and Wright insisted the bullet they found was a pointed hunting round and not the magic bullet shown in evidence. So you've managed to not answer the relevant point while entering a volume of useless words. The plotters panicked and swapped a test round from the Carcano in order to cover-up a potential errant round from another sniper.





Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Not having the shooters shooting at the same time ends up being pretty conclusive evidence of multiple shooters.



If it became impossible to cover-up a second shooter CIA simply would have framed a Cuban and said he was in league with Oswald, proving a Cuban communist plot. It's also easily possible that covert orders were issued for a cover-up in order prevent World War III. On the other hand, if two shots did hit at the same time that is the sign of a "shoot" command being given by radio. Bowers and others said the last two shots were nearly simultaneous.



Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You have a skewed view of how people in military or para-military organizations work. In my experience, very few people are so committed to an organization that they will allow themselves to be implicated in obviously criminal activity. If I were to tell one of my soldiers to do something that would get them arrested I would be encouraged to perform an unnatural act with my hat (might be worded more crudely though).



Yeah, right. The radical emotional commitment of the Cuban exiles and John Birchers is well documented. You can interpolate Ruby's suicide mission against Oswald in relation. This could be easily done with well-paid assassins told they were covered from the top and would be guarded by fake Secret Service agents.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
There's a whole new level of complexity - now in addition to making sure that LHO doesn't spill the beans, etc. you also need to ensure that the double doesn't, and the surgical team that did the plastic surgery.



A sure sign Oswald was a real CIA operative is the fact he didn't spill the beans at the police station. However we don't know what was omitted in the notes chief Curry hid in a safe that never surfaced. Oswald was most likely told he would be sprung later. He probably cooperated by saying he was only arrested because he once defected to the Soviet Union, thus going along with the ruse and keeping cover. You see Oswald knew he was in the lunchroom, so he was confident he would eventually be exonerated so he cooperated. You can see the plotters chose the patsy well, but Ruby visited the police station just to make sure Oswald remembered.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
What about the other people behind the fence? the people on the egress route?



There were no other people behind the fence. The fake SS agents chased them away. The one witness they couldn't remove was railyard switch tower operator Lee Bowers who had his finger tip cut off mob style afterwards and later died in a mysterious one car car crash. It is what it looks like. Bowers later secretly told his minister he withheld the fact he saw a man throw a rifle into the trunk of a car.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Had the shot from there not been fired at the exact time as the one from the TBD, then people would have known the shot came from behind the fence, and then the shooter's escape gets that much more difficult.



If you bother to look at the record many people thought a shot sounded like it came from behind the fence.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The Zapruder film was developed first by Kodak, then turned over 2 of the three first gen copies (Zapruder kept one) to the Secret Service who then sent a copy to the FBI Lab. If this is going to be faked, it had to have been faked before Zapruder got it to Eastman Kodak lab on the day of the shooting for development, as all copies of the film do not show any signs of tampering



Do some reading. CIA members came forward and said the film was brought to CIA's NPIC film lab on Saturday night.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Ask yourself the question, why would a "secret" pre-autopsy need to be done, and if so, where and when was it done?



A rather patronizing, regressive question considering what we've already shown. The simple answer is to hide the evidence of a shot from the front as testified to by Dr Crenshaw on You-Tube. Also Dennis David at Bethesda. Read Lifton and Horne. It was done at Bethesda, covertly.



Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Again, where and when would this have been done? JFK's body was under observation the whole time - when did this happen, and why would it need to be done?



You don't know what you're talking about. Listen to the new General Clifton Air Force 1 tapes where they were caught trying to arrange a helicopter and secret ramp on the dark side of the airplane to remove the body. You're obviously un-educated about this and taking hopeful pot shots - and Reitzes is happy you are and won't correct you. JFK's body was not under observation when the decoy bronze show casket was driven around and delayed. What you wrote is provably false.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
If the government was so corrupt that this happened, why have they permitted the evidence to come out, and why have they not silenced the people who leaked it?



What a sincere and honest question. The answer is simple, because it always comes down to them deciding what to do about it. This is a shameful question considering how many people they actually did murder.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You've never been in on the planning for an ambush, have you?

First, this wasn't like a ambush where the target was hit right before they got to a safe point and were relaxed.



No, sure. Nevermind the fact they were past the crowd and headed for the Stemmons Freeway entrance ramp.





Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
JFK was shot right after his vehicle had to slow for a turn, and if you look at they angles, the only spot with a decent line of fire was LHO in the TBD.



Rubbish. The reason the fake Oswald didn't take the best shot as Kennedy was square in front of him on Houston Street is because the plan was for the Grassy Knoll triangulation.






Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Someone on the grassy knoll would have had about two seconds to acquire and shoot (while not impossible, it isn't likely).



Many witnesses said the limousine came to a complete stop at that point.




Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Which newspaper? The first Canadian reporter on the ground was Peter Worthington - who didn't arrive until the evening of the 23rd. None of the other reporters there (all Americans) would be sending any of their photos out of the country.


If you trace that story you'll find it to be true. Somebody took a photo of a non-Oswald person in the snipers nest window and it was disappeared by the Canadian paper he sent it to.



Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Again, witneses put him at the scene, and ballistics say it was the weapon that LHO had that did it - you want to try again?


All perfectly within the capabilities of those who were framing Oswald. Actually, if you bothered to study this in a more credible manner the bullets in Tippit's body were two and two of a sort yet the casings were three and one. Oswald was framed for Tippit's murder and was probably at the Texas Theater when it happened.

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Old 5th October 2013, 09:43 AM   #47
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JB:

If it became impossible to cover-up a second shooter CIA simply would have framed a Cuban and said he was in league with Oswald, proving a Cuban communist plot. It's also easily possible that covert orders were issued for a cover-up in order prevent World War III. On the other hand, if two shots did hit at the same time that is the sign of a "shoot" command being given by radio. Bowers and others said the last two shots were nearly simultaneous.

If any readers would be interested in an explanation of how gunshots can be misinterpreted by the listener:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=103

In the other thread

Ladmo:

To say it was only LHO is to reject subsequent findings that drew from a greater pool of information. The House Select Committee on Assassinations came to the conclusion that LHO fired 3 shots and that the 3rd shot killed him. The HSCA did eliminate many suspected groups like: the Soviets, the Cubans, the CIA, the FBI, the Secret Service, et al. most Lone Gunman theorists believe all of the above but depart when the committee said that a fourth (4th) shot was fired. Read the report and then come back and explain why they did not get that element correct.

I don't need to go back and read the report, because if you go far back enough in this thread I explained how the multiple shots/multiple shooters scenario occurred, and the science involved.

For your enlightenment, I'll do so again, and address the "open mic" evidence that even under ideal conditions would be suspect.

When a projectile is fired, and the velocity of the projectile surpasses supersonic velocity (approx. 1100 feet per second, depending on atmospheric conditions) the projectile creates a following sound wave in it's wake. Here's an animation with aircraft as the example:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


As the projectile moves through the air, at every single terrain feature it passes, organic or otherwise, it creates (for lack of a better term) a mini sonic boom that is clearly audible if A) the projectile passes along past your location in the bullet path B) you're downrange being shot at and the round is a clean miss C) you're the shooter, firing a well suppressed firearm.

This phenomenon was first noted on record by Hiram Maxim, the inventor of what he called a Silencer, when he fired a 1903 Springfield rifle in the standard Gov. 30/06 caliber with his invention - Maxim fired down a country road lined with telegraph poles, and his observation was that it sounded like a "battalion of machine guns" as the bullet passed each pole, the sonic boom was clearly audible to him.

How does this relate to Dealy? as LHO fired, different observers at different points along the bullet's path heard these MSB's, mistook the MSB's for muzzle blasts or misinterpreted them as being shooter locations, and from those observers came their eye (or ear, if you want to be accurate) witness accounts of more shots than the three established and documented rounds, different directions of fire, etc. and the rest is CT grist for the mill

What goes right along with the reality of this phenomenon is the inability of an open mic to do anything other than record ambient sounds. A mic at different points in a bullet trajectory could easily record multiple "shots" from one single round fired.

At this point, I need to make an argument from my personal experience.

During the course of my professional life I've been around, and have a bunch of personal experience with firearms all across the board, I'm a qualified expert witness, instructor, armorer, etc. I did six years in the Army and 15 years in the PD, I've worked overseas, and in the ABC examples I noted above I'm three for three.

Every so-called "impossibility" wrt the actual firearm, ballistics and the mechanics of marksmanship noted by the JFK assassination CT hawkers is flat out ********.

The shooting was nothing special, the 6.5 x 52 is a good if not great cartridge, the projectile has a very high sectional density (better penetration) compared to other common .30 caliber class service rifle rounds and one of the stupid mistakes JFK CT hawkers made early on is that many of them didn't account for the simple fact that LHO's first round was chambered before he mounted the piece for a cheek weld - early explanations tried to assert that LHO had to mount, aim and then chamber the first round...stupidity that only a non trained individual would even consider.*

Go back to the other thread and read my post on the first page - like I said, I had an unusual childhood and was raised to believe one of the standard CT's, but my life out in the world living in the reality of the piece of this story I'm most familiar with taught me that the various CT's out in the wild are based on misunderstanding at best, flat out ******** and opportunism at worst, and belief in those CT's are based more in ignorance than knowledge.

*Note. There is one JFK "researcher" and CT hawker that has an actual background as a trained professional.

Unfortunately, this individual wasn't satisfied with his own version of events, or maybe his book editor wanted some more horsepower in the story, so this individual claimed that when he attended LE marksman training run in conjunction with one of the greatest combat and competition marksman that ever lived, this individual claimed that the great man told him that the Marine scout/sniper school at Quantico had run a test to duplicate LHO's shooting, but nobody could duplicate the feat, including the great man.

The only problem?

No such test has ever taken place at the school - the military is very funny, they keep records of everything, and no such records exist.

For my part, I went through the same LE school run by the great man, and although he taught much, LHO, JFK and assassinations never came up, and no other individual involved with TGM or the school had ever heard him make any such claim.

The book written by the hawker dropped into obscurity afaik, but I wanted to touch on it because non-professionally trained JFK hawkers have grabbed onto this particular ******** story as "proof."

The other fact germane to this story, the book was published after the death of the The Great Man - Carlos Hathcock, USMC, 1942 - 1999.
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Old 5th October 2013, 04:44 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jetblast View Post
Oswald was most likely ordered into the lunch room where the plotters knew nobody would be as the president passed by and everybody's attention was on him. They screwed up when Depository secretary Carolyn Arnold happened to go to the lunch room water fountain at 12:25 and witnessed Oswald there.
Right, because gambling an gigantic conspiracy on no one being in the lunch room at lunch time makes so much sense.

Quote:
Learn about the case before you argue it. Tomlinson and Wright insisted the bullet they found was a pointed hunting round and not the magic bullet shown in evidence.
Could you explain the difference between a "pointed hunting round" and a pointed FMJ? Extra points if you can explain how reliably someone should be able to determine the difference after a split seconds review?

Quote:
So you've managed to not answer the relevant point while entering a volume of useless words. The plotters panicked and swapped a test round from the Carcano in order to cover-up a potential errant round from another sniper.
Claim of fact based on what, other than your opinion?

Quote:
If it became impossible to cover-up a second shooter CIA simply would have framed a Cuban and said he was in league with Oswald, proving a Cuban communist plot. It's also easily possible that covert orders were issued for a cover-up in order prevent World War III.
Argument by "if?"

Quote:
On the other hand, if two shots did hit at the same time that is the sign of a "shoot" command being given by radio.
1) Interesting how your CT can accommodate any and all possibilities.

2) A "shoot command" would be ridiculous. Please don't tell me you think a third party could predict the ideal shot for two separate shooters and/or that a verbal "shoot" would result in anywhere near simultaneous shots in the real world?

Quote:
Bowers and others said the last two shots were nearly simultaneous.
One word: Echo.

Quote:
Yeah, right. The radical emotional commitment of the Cuban exiles and John Birchers is well documented. You can interpolate Ruby's suicide mission against Oswald in relation. This could be easily done with well-paid assassins told they were covered from the top and would be guarded by fake Secret Service agents.
Why throw away a perfectly good Russian speaking deep cover agent rather than anyone else? Heck, why not simply shoot LHO on the 6th floor as he "escaped?" Your CT is stupidly complex and full of holes.

Quote:
A sure sign Oswald was a real CIA operative is the fact he didn't spill the beans at the police station.
Fantasy. Please tell us how often in your world criminals spontaneously confess to capitol crimes. Not to mention, if he had "spilled the beans" you'd just as easily say it was rehearsed, faked, etc...

Quote:
However we don't know what was omitted in the notes chief Curry hid in a safe that never surfaced. Oswald was most likely told he would be sprung later. He probably cooperated by saying he was only arrested because he once defected to the Soviet Union, thus going along with the ruse and keeping cover. You see Oswald knew he was in the lunchroom, so he was confident he would eventually be exonerated so he cooperated. You can see the plotters chose the patsy well, but Ruby visited the police station just to make sure Oswald remembered.
1) More argument based on "if."

2) Why chose such a valuable person as a "patsy?" If for no other reason than he had (according to you) too many other secrets to reveal? Once again, the gigantic conspiracy gambling everything on Ruby killing LHO in time.

Quote:
There were no other people behind the fence. The fake SS agents chased them away.
Could you elaborate why you think they were "fake SS agents?"

Quote:
The one witness they couldn't remove was railyard switch tower operator Lee Bowers who had his finger tip cut off mob style afterwards and later died in a mysterious one car car crash. It is what it looks like.
And if it turns out not to be anything in the least like you described, will you change your mind or ignore it like always?

Quote:
If you bother to look at the record many people thought a shot sounded like it came from behind the fence.
Echoes do that.

Quote:
Rubbish. The reason the fake Oswald didn't take the best shot as Kennedy was square in front of him on Houston Street is because the plan was for the Grassy Knoll triangulation.
So your CT is self supporting? Must be nice.

Quote:
If you trace that story you'll find it to be true. Somebody took a photo of a non-Oswald person in the snipers nest window and it was disappeared by the Canadian paper he sent it to.
What was his name?

What was the paper's name?

Quote:
Actually, if you bothered to study this in a more credible manner the bullets in Tippit's body were two and two of a sort yet the casings were three and one. Oswald was framed for Tippit's murder and was probably at the Texas Theater when it happened.
I'm willing to bet you can't provide actual facts to support that claim.
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Old 5th October 2013, 08:32 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Why, if the Powers That Be determined that the President must die, did they do so in full view of the public where it could be independently observed and recorded, in a way that was so very obviously a murder?

Food poisoning. Heart attack. Accident.

This is what I find so silly about the whole JFK assassination scenario as a conspiracy. It's not that the alleged conspirators chose the silliest way to shoot the President in public; it's that they chose the silliest way to get rid of him -- by shooting him in public.
This.

Look at Warren G Harding. That's what happens when someone wants to kill a President and doesn't want anyone to know

(ducks)

:-)
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Old 5th October 2013, 08:47 PM   #50
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by Rich_C View Post
This.

Look at Warren G Harding. That's what happens when someone wants to kill a President and doesn't want anyone to know

(ducks)

:-)
A Warren G. Harding assassination would have too many suspects.
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Old 6th October 2013, 08:52 AM   #51
BStrong
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There's a story that made the rounds about the internal CA investigation wrt the JFK assassination, where one CIA employee as asked if another CIA employee was "capable of shooting the President" and the famous answer allegedly was that the individual in question was "too young to have shot Lincoln or McKinley, so..."
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Old 6th October 2013, 12:45 PM   #52
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Mod WarningPlease remember and abide by your Membership Agreement, folks. Stick to the topic (which is not each other), be civil and polite, and address the argument rather than attacking the arguer. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:LashL
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Old 6th October 2013, 06:49 PM   #53
Regnad Kcin
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Originally Posted by Jetblast View Post
The real scenario here is Oswald was a cooperating covert agent following orders from the start. He was manipulated as all the conspiracy evidence you so conveniently omit proves. Your arguments sound plausible but only because you dishonestly omit all the incriminating evidence that disproves them.

Oswald was most likely ordered into the lunch room where the plotters knew nobody would be as the president passed by and everybody's attention was on him. They screwed up when Depository secretary Carolyn Arnold happened to go to the lunch room water fountain at 12:25 and witnessed Oswald there.

The rest of what you write only makes sense if you ignore how much control was involved in the assassination by those who oversaw it.

Learn about the case before you argue it. Tomlinson and Wright insisted the bullet they found was a pointed hunting round and not the magic bullet shown in evidence. So you've managed to not answer the relevant point while entering a volume of useless words. The plotters panicked and swapped a test round from the Carcano in order to cover-up a potential errant round from another sniper.

If it became impossible to cover-up a second shooter CIA simply would have framed a Cuban and said he was in league with Oswald, proving a Cuban communist plot. It's also easily possible that covert orders were issued for a cover-up in order prevent World War III. On the other hand, if two shots did hit at the same time that is the sign of a "shoot" command being given by radio. Bowers and others said the last two shots were nearly simultaneous.

Yeah, right. The radical emotional commitment of the Cuban exiles and John Birchers is well documented. You can interpolate Ruby's suicide mission against Oswald in relation. This could be easily done with well-paid assassins told they were covered from the top and would be guarded by fake Secret Service agents.

A sure sign Oswald was a real CIA operative is the fact he didn't spill the beans at the police station. However we don't know what was omitted in the notes chief Curry hid in a safe that never surfaced. Oswald was most likely told he would be sprung later. He probably cooperated by saying he was only arrested because he once defected to the Soviet Union, thus going along with the ruse and keeping cover. You see Oswald knew he was in the lunchroom, so he was confident he would eventually be exonerated so he cooperated. You can see the plotters chose the patsy well, but Ruby visited the police station just to make sure Oswald remembered.

There were no other people behind the fence. The fake SS agents chased them away. The one witness they couldn't remove was railyard switch tower operator Lee Bowers who had his finger tip cut off mob style afterwards and later died in a mysterious one car car crash. It is what it looks like. Bowers later secretly told his minister he withheld the fact he saw a man throw a rifle into the trunk of a car.

If you bother to look at the record many people thought a shot sounded like it came from behind the fence.

Do some reading. CIA members came forward and said the film was brought to CIA's NPIC film lab on Saturday night.

A rather patronizing, regressive question considering what we've already shown. The simple answer is to hide the evidence of a shot from the front as testified to by Dr Crenshaw on You-Tube. Also Dennis David at Bethesda. Read Lifton and Horne. It was done at Bethesda, covertly.

You don't know what you're talking about. Listen to the new General Clifton Air Force 1 tapes where they were caught trying to arrange a helicopter and secret ramp on the dark side of the airplane to remove the body. You're obviously un-educated about this and taking hopeful pot shots - and Reitzes is happy you are and won't correct you. JFK's body was not under observation when the decoy bronze show casket was driven around and delayed. What you wrote is provably false.

What a sincere and honest question. The answer is simple, because it always comes down to them deciding what to do about it. This is a shameful question considering how many people they actually did murder.

No, sure. Nevermind the fact they were past the crowd and headed for the Stemmons Freeway entrance ramp.

Rubbish. The reason the fake Oswald didn't take the best shot as Kennedy was square in front of him on Houston Street is because the plan was for the Grassy Knoll triangulation.

Many witnesses said the limousine came to a complete stop at that point.

If you trace that story you'll find it to be true. Somebody took a photo of a non-Oswald person in the snipers nest window and it was disappeared by the Canadian paper he sent it to.

All perfectly within the capabilities of those who were framing Oswald. Actually, if you bothered to study this in a more credible manner the bullets in Tippit's body were two and two of a sort yet the casings were three and one. Oswald was framed for Tippit's murder and was probably at the Texas Theater when it happened.
Wow.

Untangling the thinking that wound up with the above would be like trying to teach French to an elm tree.
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Old 7th October 2013, 06:16 AM   #54
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Just curious whether anyone knows whether such a thing exists:

Imagine an overhead view of the scene of the crime. It should be possible to animate, in slow motion, the path of a missile from the building to the limo AND show expanding sound waves from the weapon and from the impact site. The missile traveled faster than the speed of sound, but the sound waves travel at, well, the speed of sound.

Thus, the animation would depict the missile traveling from the window toward the limo, followed by an expanding circle representing the more-slowly-moving sound of the muzzle blast. After impact, a second expanding circle would form centered on the limo, representing the sound of the missile hitting the target.

It would then be possible to show which witnesses with known locations would hear the impact distinct from the muzzle blast, and the approximate time interval between these sounds.
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Old 7th October 2013, 09:40 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
Just curious whether anyone knows whether such a thing exists:

Imagine an overhead view of the scene of the crime. It should be possible to animate, in slow motion, the path of a missile from the building to the limo AND show expanding sound waves from the weapon and from the impact site. The missile traveled faster than the speed of sound, but the sound waves travel at, well, the speed of sound.

Thus, the animation would depict the missile traveling from the window toward the limo, followed by an expanding circle representing the more-slowly-moving sound of the muzzle blast. After impact, a second expanding circle would form centered on the limo, representing the sound of the missile hitting the target.

It would then be possible to show which witnesses with known locations would hear the impact distinct from the muzzle blast, and the approximate time interval between these sounds.
The velocity of the projectile (estimated, as individual rounds even in a given lot will have deviations in muzzle velocity, the velocity for a string of test rounds averaged is called the Standard Deviation) the distance to the (ear) witness. and the terrain features present would need to be entered into a formula to get the numbers you're looking for.
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Old 7th October 2013, 09:55 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
Just curious whether anyone knows whether such a thing exists...
It does, as a subset of computational fluid dynamics. However, in order to be suitably accurate it would need to be quite detailed. The people equipped to do such analysis won't do it for free.
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Old 7th October 2013, 10:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It does, as a subset of computational fluid dynamics. However, in order to be suitably accurate it would need to be quite detailed. The people equipped to do such analysis won't do it for free.
If he wants to go to town on it himself, there is an open source platform available, OpenFOAM. Or a grad student could use this as material for a thesis.
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Old 7th October 2013, 10:44 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
It would then be possible to show which witnesses with known locations would hear the impact distinct from the muzzle blast, and the approximate time interval between these sounds.
Given that Dealy Plaza is surrounded by tall buildings, the near instantaneous echo reflection sounding like a second simultaneous shot isn't all that surprising.
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Old 7th October 2013, 11:21 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The velocity of the projectile (estimated, as individual rounds even in a given lot will have deviations in muzzle velocity, the velocity for a string of test rounds averaged is called the Standard Deviation) the distance to the (ear) witness. and the terrain features present would need to be entered into a formula to get the numbers you're looking for.
To put the point more generally, the model may have to account for several variables. A missile fired at 1600 feet per second might result in different results than a missile fired at 1700 feet per second. Further, as has been pointed out, there may be various structures that may contribute to echos.

Even so, I wonder whether such a simulation or animation exists. My strong hunch is that someone has created something like this already.
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Old 7th October 2013, 12:27 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
To put the point more generally, the model may have to account for several variables. A missile fired at 1600 feet per second might result in different results than a missile fired at 1700 feet per second. Further, as has been pointed out, there may be various structures that may contribute to echos.

Even so, I wonder whether such a simulation or animation exists. My strong hunch is that someone has created something like this already.
I've never run across one in this case or any other, but the science is there for someone to act on.

I've come to the conclusion that in the example of the JFK assassination that all the structures and individuals at all different points along the trajectory have accounted for all the different (ear) witness accounts for more shots/shooters.

The reason that such information doesn't make it out into the public arena is that there aren't a hell of a lot of people out there with first hand experience in the subject matter that care about the JFK assassination - guys that have been shot at or have experience in how projectiles perform down range aren't the common demographic for interest in JFK's murder.

Without naming names, there used to a guy that held a SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) manufacturing license that specialized in sound suppressors.

His idea of live fire testing was a radical departure from what anyone had done or is doing.

He brought his products out to test in and around New Orleans,. and conducted tests, sometimes in public areas (safety was always a first concern) showing how his products performed and how uninvolved members of the general public reacted to the sounds of suppressed gunshots.

It was very interesting as to how some folks reacted to the sound of a supersonic projectile in flight - confusion in the + 90%, but according to the manufacturer, certain types would hear the MSB and immediately go to ground and take cover.

I don't doubt for a minute that members of the public in Dealey plaza that heard those MSB's had no idea at the time they heard them what they were, and after the fact when they knew that JFK had been shot they interpreted what they had heard as being individual gunshots.
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Old 7th October 2013, 02:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I've never run across one in this case or any other, but the science is there for someone to act on.
You make some good points. The aspects of acoustics were discussed almost immediately after the assassination, yet I'm not sure there has been a simulation to demonstrate whether or not one gunshot in Dealey Plaza could be result in two distinct noises, and whether there is a correlation between witness positions and their testimony about timing of the noises. I'm tempted to think that this crime has been simulated every which way that can be imagined, but I'm not aware of any acoustic modeling. The House Assassination Committee's evidence did not really address the question, since (if memory serves) rounds were fired into sandbags rather than into a solid object that would produce an impact noise.

Another simulation I'm not sure has been done is whether any of the various knoll shooters could have hit the target. Shooters from Oswald's position have been simulated A LOT, and these simulations have shown that a fatal shot from that position is plausible. But I'm not aware of whether anyone has tried to replicate shooting from the many other supposed sites.

I am aware that from some of the supposed sites (e.g., the sewers) there is no shot to be had at all. And a recent documentary used laser beams to determine whether some of the sites were viable. But I'm not aware of whether there has been a simulation in which a shooter actually tries to hit a target under the circumstances that existed. The closest thing to this I can recall is the fictional movie "The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald."
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Old 7th October 2013, 04:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
I am aware that from some of the supposed sites (e.g., the sewers) there is no shot to be had at all.
Yeah, that's the definition of crazy.
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Old 8th October 2013, 07:37 AM   #63
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I liked the Skeptic article, and had it in mind when listening to the recent Coast to Coast Am episode with Jesse Ventura. He was talking about his new book about JFK. One of the points Ventura raised was both himself (a former navy seal) and a current top marksman and sniper trainer attempted to take the same shot as Oswald with the same weapon. I believe he said they each took 10 attempts to shoot the same number of shots and to hit the same target and neither of them could do it on any attempt. He went on to point out that Oswald was not a trained marksman other than probably basic training (he was a radar operator). This argument implies that it was unlikely Oswald could have accounted for all the gunshots meaning there was another shooter. I didn't remember the article dealing with this argument so I was wondering what the response would be?
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Old 8th October 2013, 07:55 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by JLord View Post
I liked the Skeptic article, and had it in mind when listening to the recent Coast to Coast Am episode with Jesse Ventura. He was talking about his new book about JFK. One of the points Ventura raised was both himself (a former navy seal) and a current top marksman and sniper trainer attempted to take the same shot as Oswald with the same weapon. I believe he said they each took 10 attempts to shoot the same number of shots and to hit the same target and neither of them could do it on any attempt. He went on to point out that Oswald was not a trained marksman other than probably basic training (he was a radar operator). This argument implies that it was unlikely Oswald could have accounted for all the gunshots meaning there was another shooter. I didn't remember the article dealing with this argument so I was wondering what the response would be?
The response would be there are any number of experiments where the shooting has been replicated with ease. Do you know what was the distance?

Given that it's been done multiple times before, you have to wonder how a "current top marksman" could fail to load and fire two rounds in six seconds?

Remember, the first round was already in the chamber.
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Old 8th October 2013, 08:36 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by JLord View Post
I liked the Skeptic article, and had it in mind when listening to the recent Coast to Coast Am episode with Jesse Ventura. He was talking about his new book about JFK. One of the points Ventura raised was both himself (a former navy seal) and a current top marksman and sniper trainer attempted to take the same shot as Oswald with the same weapon. I believe he said they each took 10 attempts to shoot the same number of shots and to hit the same target and neither of them could do it on any attempt. He went on to point out that Oswald was not a trained marksman other than probably basic training (he was a radar operator). This argument implies that it was unlikely Oswald could have accounted for all the gunshots meaning there was another shooter. I didn't remember the article dealing with this argument so I was wondering what the response would be?
First things first:

http://cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt.htm

"Ventura" is not a former SEAL, and all his ******** about not wanting to talk about "his" Vietnam experience comes from not actually having any experiences to discuss.

He is not now or has ever been a noted marksman, nor is he known to have pursued marksmanship in the different competition venues popular in the shooting community.

You won't find his name in the list of Wimbledon cup winners.

As to the mechanics involved in the actual shooting, it's well within the ability of most trained shooters to hit similar sized targets at like distances, but it's the fact that LHO had experience with his brother Robert in hunting as kids and young adults that provide insight into the experience LHO had in shooting and hitting live targets - few game animals cooperate by sitting still while you fire at 'em, and I'm willing to bet that LHO's experience was no exception to the rule.

I haven't read "Ventura's" book, I have a hard time stomaching anything the guy does, but unless JV has Clint Smith, Chris Costa or Travis Haley sitting in supporting his "evidence," I'm throwing the ******** flag on the whole deal.

BTW - hit youtube, lots of JFK assassination recreations in every flavor, including live fire testing that approximates LHO's shooting.
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Old 8th October 2013, 08:48 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
My problem with the "Gand Conspiracy" involving virtualy every powerful person and agency in the US in a plot to kill the president and take over the government is this: If they already controled that many agencies, and had the power to get away with such a plot, they would already be the government. The man in the oval office would be irrelevant and there would be no need to kill him.


This is a grossly overly simplistic view in my opinion. It ignores the power Kennedy legally had and exerted that the covert government could not get around. For instance JFK removed the ability for CIA to order operations and re-assigned that power legally to the joint chiefs after the Bay Of Pigs. He also had the power to fire Dulles, and other CIA officers. He also had the power to set policy on Vietnam and decided to do so with National Security Action Memorandum 263 that ordered the withdrawal of all US troops by 1965. He denied the generals a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Russia and single-handedly stopped the inceration of the planet. He also stopped CIA from triggering a Cuban nuclear retaliation against their recommended invasion of Cuba during the missile crisis.

The above is so irresponsibly absent of the real causes of Kennedy's issues with that covert government that it is simply un-enterable. JFK was not a powerless fool unaware of what he was up against for anyone who credibly understands the real situation. You need to read Douglass' 'JFK And The Unspeakable' to understand the serious flaws in your viewpoint.
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Old 8th October 2013, 08:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
The response would be there are any number of experiments where the shooting has been replicated with ease. Do you know what was the distance?

Given that it's been done multiple times before, you have to wonder how a "current top marksman" could fail to load and fire two rounds in six seconds?

Remember, the first round was already in the chamber.
Well, yes. The current record for sniping stands at roughly 2.5km, single headshot. Afghanistan IIRC

The notion that an 80 meter shot is not plausible is bunk straight out of the box.
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Old 8th October 2013, 08:57 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jetblast View Post
This is a grossly overly simplistic view in my opinion. It ignores the power Kennedy legally had and exerted that the covert government could not get around. For instance JFK removed the ability for CIA to order operations and re-assigned that power legally to the joint chiefs after the Bay Of Pigs. He also had the power to fire Dulles, and other CIA officers. He also had the power to set policy on Vietnam and decided to do so with National Security Action Memorandum 263 that ordered the withdrawal of all US troops by 1965. He denied the generals a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Russia and single-handedly stopped the inceration of the planet. He also stopped CIA from triggering a Cuban nuclear retaliation against their recommended invasion of Cuba during the missile crisis.

The above is so irresponsibly absent of the real causes of Kennedy's issues with that covert government that it is simply un-enterable. JFK was not a powerless fool unaware of what he was up against for anyone who credibly understands the real situation. You need to read Douglass' 'JFK And The Unspeakable' to understand the serious flaws in your viewpoint.
What part of this document orders the withdrawal of all US troops?

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-View...aH9Ip5IAA.aspx
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Old 8th October 2013, 09:00 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, yes. The current record for sniping stands at roughly 2.5km, single headshot. Afghanistan IIRC

The notion that an 80 meter shot is not plausible is bunk straight out of the box.
The real test of Marksmanship is repeatability of results, and currently Tom Sarver owns the crown:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...at-1000-yards/

I believe this record is going to stand for a very long time.
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Old 8th October 2013, 09:35 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
What part of this document orders the withdrawal of all US troops?

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-View...aH9Ip5IAA.aspx



Kennedy sent generals and advisors to Nam to prepare for the withdrawal. If you read up on the true history of Kennedy he was doing this universally with his denial of CIA attacks on the communists in Indonesia and Cuba etc. This is the true history of Kennedy as came out over the years from interviews with his staff and advisors and examination of documents. NSAM 263 might not have spelled-out the precise 1965 deadline because Kennedy was saavy enough to know he had to get elected in 1964 first, however that was the intention of NSAM 263. Kennedy had established back-channel communications with Khrushchev and was going to resolve it that way. If you read DiEugenio and Douglass you'll see it is more than proven, so I don't have to honor your disingenuous hair-splitting intended to mis-lead.

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Old 8th October 2013, 09:38 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Wow.

Untangling the thinking that wound up with the above would be like trying to teach French to an elm tree.


What Regnad is really saying is he can't answer the correct facts I showed.
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Old 8th October 2013, 09:40 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Jetblast View Post
Kennedy sent generals and advisors to Nam to prepare for the withdrawal. If you read up on the true history of Kennedy he was doing this universally with his denial of CIA attacks on the communists in Indonesia and Cuba etc. This is the true history of Kennedy as came out over the years from interviews with his staff and advisors and examination of documents. NSAM 263 might not have spelled-out the precise 1965 deadline because Kennedy was saavy enough to know he had to get elected in 1964 first, however that was the intention of NSAM 263. Kennedy had established back-channel communications with Khrushchev and was going to resolve it that way. If you read DiEugenio and Douglass you'll see it is more than proven, so I don't have to honor your disingenuous hair-splitting intended to mis-lead.
In summation, you quoted a specific document that did not in any way support your assertion.

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Old 8th October 2013, 01:23 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
"Ventura" is not a former SEAL, and all his ******** about not wanting to talk about "his" Vietnam experience comes from not actually having any experiences to discuss.

He is not now or has ever been a noted marksman, nor is he known to have pursued marksmanship in the different competition venues popular in the shooting community.

You won't find his name in the list of Wimbledon cup winners.
He wasn't claiming on the show to be an expert marksman himself. Just that he attempted the shots and couldn't replicate them. It was another person who tried 10 attempts unsuccesfully who Ventura claimed was a sniper teacher and expert marksman.
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Old 8th October 2013, 01:29 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
"Ventura" is not a former SEAL.
A bit of a sidenote but he mentioned this before and says that UDT members are now referred to as SEAL so even though he wasn't one at the time, both groups today are grouped into SEALs.
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Old 8th October 2013, 02:41 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by JLord View Post
A bit of a sidenote but he mentioned this before and says that UDT members are now referred to as SEAL so even though he wasn't one at the time, both groups today are grouped into SEALs.
You can not trust JV to tell you the right time of day.

SEAL's and UDT are two different MOS (Army term, I don't remember what the hell the Navy calls them) and at the time he was in uniform they were two seperate units with different areas of responsibility.

If JV had come out at some point and actually admitted that he used the SEAL's as a wrestling gimmick, and said straight out he hadn't seen combat and was working the SEAL angle for publicity, that would be one thing. He's consistently made statements alluding to secret operations and all sorts of other war story ******** while at the same time claiming he "didn't want to talk about it" that he has -0- credibility anywhere but in the CT world.

I've heard the guy many times on the Howard Stern show (JV wants to run as an independent in '16 w/ Stern as VP candidate - no ****) and he to this day talks about being a SEAL and in the same breath say's he can't talk about what he did or where he was - read the Cursor article, he was in the PI chasing girls, not the Rung Sat chasing VC.

It's my understanding, and I believe it's mentioned in the cursor article that the powers that be in the SEAL community chose not to out him in public because they considered the possible fallout and the possible positive aspects of attracting motivated volunteers - it's their call, but I'm glad they have to deal with it and not me and mine.

I can't bring myself to buy anything from the guy, but I'm sure somebody will loan me a copy so I can read it, but until I see some evidence that the guy is operating in good faith I'll categorically reject anything that comes out of his mouth.

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Old 8th October 2013, 03:16 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You can not trust JV to tell you the right time of day.

SEAL's and UDT are two different MOS (Army term, I don't remember what the hell the Navy calls them) and at the time he was in uniform they were two seperate units with different areas of responsibility.

If JV had come out at some point and actually admitted that he used the SEAL's as a wrestling gimmick, and said straight out he hadn't seen combat and was working the SEAL angle for publicity, that would be one thing. He's consistently made statements alluding to secret operations and all sorts of other war story ******** while at the same time claiming he "didn't want to talk about it" that he has -0- credibility anywhere but in the CT world.

I've heard the guy many times on the Howard Stern show (JV wants to run as an independent in '16 w/ Stern as VP candidate - no ****) and he to this day talks about being a SEAL and in the same breath say's he can't talk about what he did or where he was - read the Cursor article, he was in the PI chasing girls, not the Rung Sat chasing VC.

It's my understanding, and I believe it's mentioned in the cursor article that the powers that be in the SEAL community chose not to out him in public because they considered the possible fallout and the possible positive aspects of attracting motivated volunteers - it's their call, but I'm glad they have to deal with it and not me and mine.

I can't bring myself to buy anything from the guy, but I'm sure somebody will loan me a copy so I can read it, but until I see some evidence that the guy is operating in good faith I'll categorically reject anything that comes out of his mouth.
The Navy calls it your "rate", for example Machinists Mate (MM). There is also your NEC for a specialization within your rate. SEALs until recently did not have a separate rate (Special Warfare Operator, "SO"), and were identified by their NEC, 5326.

ETA: I believe I remember in 1989 seeing his picture on the wall at McP's, so I guess that means he can call himself a Seal.
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Old 8th October 2013, 05:56 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
The Navy calls it your "rate", for example Machinists Mate (MM). There is also your NEC for a specialization within your rate. SEALs until recently did not have a separate rate (Special Warfare Operator, "SO"), and were identified by their NEC, 5326.

ETA: I believe I remember in 1989 seeing his picture on the wall at McP's, so I guess that means he can call himself a Seal.
I know the drill, and the Army has had it's share of ******** after-the-fact that nobody wants to acknowledge, but the whole deal w/ JV doesn't sit well with me - he used his service as a gimmick, he wasn't the first and won't be the last, but at least he could have kept the gimmick to the wrestling world and not tried to ride the reputation of the unit.

Funny you should mention McP's, because isn't that the bar where Chris Kyle KO'd Ventura?

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2...jesse-ventura/
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Old 8th October 2013, 06:15 PM   #78
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I know the drill, and the Army has had it's share of ******** after-the-fact that nobody wants to acknowledge, but the whole deal w/ JV doesn't sit well with me - he used his service as a gimmick, he wasn't the first and won't be the last, but at least he could have kept the gimmick to the wrestling world and not tried to ride the reputation of the unit.

Funny you should mention McP's, because isn't that the bar where Chris Kyle KO'd Ventura?

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2...jesse-ventura/
Ha! Never heard of that one.

mcP's is on the main drag out of NavPhibBase Coronado, so it's a natural Seal hang out. They can carry their telephone poles down the strand, then stumble to McP's and back.

I stopped in with the ex when I was going through Surface Warfare Officer school back in the day, when they had a west coast SWOS.
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Old 8th October 2013, 06:51 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Ha! Never heard of that one.

mcP's is on the main drag out of NavPhibBase Coronado, so it's a natural Seal hang out. They can carry their telephone poles down the strand, then stumble to McP's and back.

I stopped in with the ex when I was going through Surface Warfare Officer school back in the day, when they had a west coast SWOS.
Check this out, Ventura walks off the O & A radio show, NSFW language:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Chris Kyle talks to O & A. NSFW language

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 8th October 2013, 07:40 PM   #80
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Check this out, Ventura walks off the O & A radio show, NSFW language:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Chris Kyle talks to O & A. NSFW language

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
You left in the slashes on the yt code, I fixed it in the quote.
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Last edited by LSSBB; 8th October 2013 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Had to kick the living **** out of my ******* spell checker.
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