Portland Reservoir to be drained

Ixion · 17th April 2014, 08:29 AM

I was browsing news stories this morning, and came across this one:

Portland Reservoir to be Drained After Teen Pees in Water

Basically, if you don't want to read the article, a CCTV captures a young man urinating into a water reservoir. The teen was caught and officials are now going to drain all 38 million gallons of the reservoir in order to "clean up" the offending act.

Now, this seems like a very costly overkill to me. First of all, I doubt that a couple hundred milliliters of urine in 38 million gallons of water is enough to contaminate it, provided that the urine has a substance in it that can contaminate it. Just based on a rough back-of-the-napkin calculation, you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly. Secondly, I assume the cost of doing this will be passed onto the taxpayer. I can only imagine the price tag for such a clean up operation.Thirdly, I assume that the reservoir water is pre-treated with filters and other sanitation methods such as oxygenation prior to arriving at people's homes, so it should be safe to drink anyways. Finally, it seems like this kind of press just exacerbates people's fear of terrorist activity (or maybe it is a product of that fear) and creates a situation where the act of saving face becomes more important than any critical thinking about the safety of the public. Is my line of thinking misled?

edd · 17th April 2014, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Just based on a rough back-of-the-napkin calculation, you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly.

200 ml in 38 million gallons is about 1 part in a billion. 1 gallon is what, 10²⁶ molecules of water? I don't think your calculation is right.

But certainly yes, it's crazy to do that when the reservoir is exposed to animals doing exactly that in it anyway. edit: and I meant to say it's obviously still a very low concentration too.

Ixion · 17th April 2014, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by edd

200 ml in 38 million gallons is about 1 part in a billion. 1 gallon is what, 10²⁶ molecules of water? I don't think your calculation is right.

But certainly yes, it's crazy to do that when the reservoir is exposed to animals doing exactly that in it anyway. edit: and I meant to say it's obviously still a very low concentration too.

You are probably right. My calculation is probably a bit off.

Segnosaur · 17th April 2014, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Ixion

...you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly.

What if its homeopathic urine? Now every molecule in the reservoir is pee!

madurobob · 17th April 2014, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

What if its homeopathic urine? Now every molecule in the reservoir is pee!

Oh, its worse than that. The kid was probably drunk. So, this was a safety measure to prevent the entire city getting drunk when they had their morning glass of tap water.

The Greater Fool · 17th April 2014, 09:20 AM

Good thing no other teens have peed in the reservoir, ever.

MostlyHarmless · 17th April 2014, 11:05 AM

I believe I read that this is already treated water that goes directly to customers without anymore treatment. It is still a ridiculous waste of fresh water.

Monketi Ghost · 17th April 2014, 11:07 AM

Only happening because of the ick factor. Bet the kids learn about parts per billion.

Aepervius · 17th April 2014, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

I believe I read that this is already treated water that goes directly to customers without anymore treatment. It is still a ridiculous waste of fresh water.

For water freely in open air ? If a teenager can urinate in it, bird, rat can die and decompose in it. So I am doubtful of the above. Gut feeling would be that water is stored in that reservoire before treatment and distributed after treatment immediately. I could be wrong though.

The Greater Fool · 17th April 2014, 11:13 AM

From the article:

Quote:

Generally, urine in such a large volume of treated water poses little risk to the public, and even animals are known to answer the call of nature into the reservoir, which gets its water from the Bull Run watershed.

Turgor · 17th April 2014, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

Oh, its worse than that. The kid was probably drunk. So, this was a safety measure to prevent the entire city getting drunk when they had their morning glass of tap water.

Shouldn't it become a hangover cure because of "like cures like"? Maybe the Portland drinking water authorities are in the pocket of Big Alka-Seltzer!

CORed · 17th April 2014, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ixion

I was browsing news stories this morning, and came across this one:

Portland Reservoir to be Drained After Teen Pees in Water

Basically, if you don't want to read the article, a CCTV captures a young man urinating into a water reservoir. The teen was caught and officials are now going to drain all 38 million gallons of the reservoir in order to "clean up" the offending act.

Now, this seems like a very costly overkill to me. First of all, I doubt that a couple hundred milliliters of urine in 38 million gallons of water is enough to contaminate it, provided that the urine has a substance in it that can contaminate it. Just based on a rough back-of-the-napkin calculation, you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly. Secondly, I assume the cost of doing this will be passed onto the taxpayer. I can only imagine the price tag for such a clean up operation.Thirdly, I assume that the reservoir water is pre-treated with filters and other sanitation methods such as oxygenation prior to arriving at people's homes, so it should be safe to drink anyways. Finally, it seems like this kind of press just exacerbates people's fear of terrorist activity (or maybe it is a product of that fear) and creates a situation where the act of saving face becomes more important than any critical thinking about the safety of the public. Is my line of thinking misled?

Absolutely ridiculous. If water is not fit to drink because one person urinated in 38 million gallons, the only water fit to drink is water from the headwaters of a stream. I'm pretty sure there are humans (animals too) upstream of Portland's water supply and it gets traces of urine in it all the time. FSM knows how many people have peed in New Orleans' drinking water before it gets to them, but I do know I'm one of them.

pgwenthold · 17th April 2014, 12:32 PM

I hope there are no fish in the reservoir. Think of all the fish pee!

Spindrift · 17th April 2014, 12:46 PM

This is a wasterful pandering to the morons who would worry about such a thing.

Soapy Sam · 17th April 2014, 12:47 PM

I'm prepared to bet that the process of "cleaning" will put more contaminants in there, by several orders of magnitude, than if every boy scout in the city peed in it.
If the decision is as the OP indicates and it was made by an engineer, then he should be fired, even if the guilty party had HIV, syphilis and Ebola.*

* OK, maybe not ebola.

Dr. Keith · 17th April 2014, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

I'm prepared to bet that the process of "cleaning" will put more contaminants in there, by several orders of magnitude, than if every boy scout in the city peed in it.
If the decision is as the OP indicates and it was made by an engineer, then he should be fired, even if the guilty party had HIV, syphilis and Ebola.*

* OK, maybe not ebola.

I feel confident that an engineer would just shrug at this and say "It's an uncovered tank, what did you expect? We found a rat floating in it last month."*

If pushed, that "something must be done" I would propose video of a very sincere looking person, best if he has some official sciencey looking outfit and eye protection, dumping some diluted chlorine into the reservoir, taking measurements with a very sciencey looking gauge such as an electric hygrometer or thermometer, adding just a bit more, taking another measurement and then stepping back carefully as if he had just put everything back in balance.

The Press statement could say something like: We analyzed the situation and prepared an appropriate treatment for the water impacted. The included video shows the reservoir being treated to ensure that this breach of security will not impact our customers. The cost of this analysis and treatment will be forwarded to the DA's office to aide in the calculation of restitution if appropriate.

*Finding a dead rat in the skimmer of your pool late at night will cause urination issues, too.

pgwenthold · 17th April 2014, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by edd

200 ml in 38 million gallons is about 1 part in a billion. 1 gallon is what, 10²⁶ molecules of water? I don't think your calculation is right.

Part of the confusion is that there is no such thing as a "molecule of urine." Urine is a solution of many components, but is still 95% water.

Let's just look at the urea component. Urea runs about 9.3 g/L, so call it 2 g for the 200 mL sample. With a molecular weight of 60, we have 30 mmol.

Now, how much water is there? 38e6 gallons, with each gallon being 128 oz and each oz is 30 mL, so I get 1.46e8 L. Water is 55 mol/L, so that means there are 8 billion moles of water.

The urea concentration then is going to be 4 ppt, or 1.4e-5 mg/L

According to this paper

Kosm Biol Aviakosm Med. 1988 Jan-Feb;22(1):63-6.
(abstract here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2896273)

the threshold for concentration for affecting taste or flavor is 80 mg/L. Overall the recommendation is "In terms of toxic effects the dose equal to 10 mg/l is taken to be the maximally allowable concentration of urea. "

So the paper puts the safe urea limit in water at 10 mg/L (3 ppm), or about 1 million times higher than this pee event.

Even if the paper is off by a factor of 1000, it's still under the limit by a factor of a thousand.

Alternatively, 1000 kids could pee in the reservoir and the urea concentration would still be 1000 times lower than the safe acceptable limit.

More dumb things: assuming the proportion of Boy Scouts in Portland is the same as that nationwide (6 million Boy Scouts/300 million people), than that would mean there are about 12K Boy Scouts in Portland, which means that if EVERY Boy Scout in Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would STILL be 100 times less than allowable safe limit.

shadron · 17th April 2014, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I feel confident that an engineer would just shrug at this and say "It's an uncovered tank, what did you expect? We found a rat floating in it last month."

Or a bear. Or a bigfoot. Perhaps the ark is under there, too.

CapelDodger · 17th April 2014, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

For water freely in open air ? If a teenager can urinate in it, bird, rat can die and decompose in it. So I am doubtful of the above. Gut feeling would be that water is stored in that reservoire before treatment and distributed after treatment immediately. I could be wrong though.

From what I've read this it is indeed treated water; underground storage is being built to comply with new regulations, apparently. Can't imagine why

.

CapelDodger · 17th April 2014, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

This is a wasterful pandering to the morons who would worry about such a thing.

More likely with an eye to lawyers salivating over a class action. Also getting across to the local youth that this is not cool, m'kay? That'll stop it happening again.

CORed · 17th April 2014, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

I hope there are no fish in the reservoir. Think of all the fish pee!

IIRC, that was why W. C. Fields wouldn't touch water.

dlorde · 17th April 2014, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

IIRC, that was why W. C. Fields wouldn't touch water.

Not quite - I believe it was their reproductive activity that he objected to (he didn't put it so delicately).

Garrette · 17th April 2014, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by dlorde

Not quite - I believe it was their reproductive activity that he objected to (he didn't put it so delicately).

The tragedy of limited choices in regard to liquid sustenance is quite poignantly portrayed in Fields' documentary masterpiece, "The Fatal Glass of Beer."

Slowvehicle · 17th April 2014, 05:13 PM

It's probably the fact that the scoutful of pee, added to all the "memory" of the homeopathic concentrations of dinosaur urine, and contaminants from ye fludde, put the concentration into homeopathically active levels...

pgwenthold · 17th April 2014, 06:27 PM

Re: my analysis above

I just realized - if the entire population of Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would still only be 8 mg/L, still undetectable by taste and still under the safe allowable limit!

Slowvehicle · 17th April 2014, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Re: my analysis above

I just realized - if the entire population of Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would still only be 8 mg/L, still undetectable by taste and still under the safe allowable limit!

"Don't pee in here,
You hadn't ought-ter,
But watch out for
The yellow water!"

Dinwar · 17th April 2014, 07:14 PM

I have seen large reservoirs that did not have dead animals in them. It is not impossible. No urine? That's not going to happen.

Some people drink urine. Insane, but then some people are not too rational. Urine is toxic, but not due to pathogens (most of the time, anyway). At these concentrations, I would be confident any toxins were diluted to well below most drinking water standards.

Still, I can sympathize. Who wants to be the official that says "We consider it okay for your children to drink pee"? This is a political, not scientific, decision. You would be amazed how often that is the case.

jasonpatterson · 17th April 2014, 07:31 PM

I think it's ridiculous that they're draining the water over this, but at least I understand it (to prevent complaints or some other reason that I don't find compelling.)

What I don't understand are the people who designed a water treatment system that stores drinking water in tanks exposed to the air, particularly tanks that are able to be reached by the public without any great effort. This guy didn't climb a razorwire fence and take a wee, he just peed through some bars into a pond. Surely dozens of birds fly over this and poop into it daily, and the occasional duck must land in there, even if it's not got any fish in it...

This is begging someone to contaminate the water, for goodness sake. A bag of dog poop or worse, a bag of poison, and you've really done some damage.

Wolrab · 19th April 2014, 04:19 AM

They should turn this calamity into a profit. Bottle and sell the water. "Portland Bottled Water: The Water With A Little Wang To It"

FreshHat · 19th April 2014, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Re: my analysis above

I just realized - if the entire population of Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would still only be 8 mg/L, still undetectable by taste and still under the safe allowable limit!

You should pitch this idea to Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen.

Modified · 19th April 2014, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

This is begging someone to contaminate the water, for goodness sake. A bag of dog poop or worse, a bag of poison, and you've really done some damage.

Agreed. If I knew my tap water was being stored in such a way, I wouldn't drink it. I usually don't drink tap water now just because of how often "boil water" warnings are given, but I do use it for ice cubes, cooking water, and brushing teeth.

kookbreaker · 19th April 2014, 08:22 AM

What's really goofy is that this is the second time this has happened. In 2011 they had to drain the reservoir because someone peed in it.

C'mon guys, add a membrane system already. Having your post-treated water all open and accessible is ludicrous.

Dr. Imago · 19th April 2014, 08:25 AM

Anyone else reminded of that scene in Caddyshack when they drain the pool and Carl picks up the Baby Ruth proclaiming "It's not so bad" before taking a bite?

~Dr. Imago

Sherman Bay · 19th April 2014, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Part of the confusion is that there is no such thing as a "molecule of urine." Urine is a solution of many components, but is still 95% water.

So the reservoir is being drained because someone added water to the water?

marting · 19th April 2014, 08:51 AM

This is roughly in line with stupid laws like requiring disclosure if someone sells a house where a murder was committed within some number of years. Could have ghosts. Ick factors may be irrational but we are dealing with humans and rationality is not one of their more outstanding traits.

Gallstones · 19th April 2014, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

Oh, its worse than that. The kid was probably drunk. So, this was a safety measure to prevent the entire city getting drunk when they had their morning glass of tap water.

But if it was homeopathic wouldn't that sober them up?

pgwenthold · 19th April 2014, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

So the reservoir is being drained because someone added water to the water?

For the most part....

John Jones · 19th April 2014, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

[snipped for brevity]

*Finding a dead rat in the skimmer of your pool late at night will cause urination issues, too.

I found a dead water moccasin in my pool skimmer, so I get your point.

rockinkt · 19th April 2014, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by John Jones

I found a dead water moccasin in my pool skimmer, so I get your point.

madurobob · 19th April 2014, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

Shouldn't it become a hangover cure because of "like cures like"? Maybe the Portland drinking water authorities are in the pocket of Big Alka-Seltzer!

Originally Posted by Gallstones

But if it was homeopathic wouldn't that sober them up?

OK, so I was in a hurry.

But, ya know, pedantry ruins many a good joke...

17th April 2014, 08:29 AM	#1
Ixion Inquiring Mind Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,431	Portland Reservoir to be drained I was browsing news stories this morning, and came across this one: Portland Reservoir to be Drained After Teen Pees in Water Basically, if you don't want to read the article, a CCTV captures a young man urinating into a water reservoir. The teen was caught and officials are now going to drain all 38 million gallons of the reservoir in order to "clean up" the offending act. Now, this seems like a very costly overkill to me. First of all, I doubt that a couple hundred milliliters of urine in 38 million gallons of water is enough to contaminate it, provided that the urine has a substance in it that can contaminate it. Just based on a rough back-of-the-napkin calculation, you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly. Secondly, I assume the cost of doing this will be passed onto the taxpayer. I can only imagine the price tag for such a clean up operation.Thirdly, I assume that the reservoir water is pre-treated with filters and other sanitation methods such as oxygenation prior to arriving at people's homes, so it should be safe to drink anyways. Finally, it seems like this kind of press just exacerbates people's fear of terrorist activity (or maybe it is a product of that fear) and creates a situation where the act of saving face becomes more important than any critical thinking about the safety of the public. Is my line of thinking misled?
Ixion Inquiring Mind Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,431	__________________ Avatar kindly animated by Paulhoff. Because the last time I was playing Friday night, we ended up with the Ixion Fiasco - Horatius

17th April 2014, 08:37 AM	#2
edd Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,120	Quote: Just based on a rough back-of-the-napkin calculation, you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly. 200 ml in 38 million gallons is about 1 part in a billion. 1 gallon is what, 10²⁶ molecules of water? I don't think your calculation is right. But certainly yes, it's crazy to do that when the reservoir is exposed to animals doing exactly that in it anyway. edit: and I meant to say it's obviously still a very low concentration too.
edd Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,120	__________________ When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz

17th April 2014, 08:45 AM	#3
Ixion Inquiring Mind Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,431	Originally Posted by edd 200 ml in 38 million gallons is about 1 part in a billion. 1 gallon is what, 10²⁶ molecules of water? I don't think your calculation is right. But certainly yes, it's crazy to do that when the reservoir is exposed to animals doing exactly that in it anyway. edit: and I meant to say it's obviously still a very low concentration too. You are probably right. My calculation is probably a bit off.
Ixion Inquiring Mind Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,431	__________________ Avatar kindly animated by Paulhoff. Because the last time I was playing Friday night, we ended up with the Ixion Fiasco - Horatius

17th April 2014, 08:55 AM	#4
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,674	Originally Posted by Ixion ...you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly. What if its homeopathic urine? Now every molecule in the reservoir is pee!
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

17th April 2014, 09:15 AM	#5
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	Originally Posted by Segnosaur What if its homeopathic urine? Now every molecule in the reservoir is pee! Oh, its worse than that. The kid was probably drunk. So, this was a safety measure to prevent the entire city getting drunk when they had their morning glass of tap water.
	__________________ I love you and I vote.

17th April 2014, 09:20 AM	#6
The Greater Fool Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 4,400	Good thing no other teens have peed in the reservoir, ever.
	__________________ - "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

17th April 2014, 11:05 AM	#7
MostlyHarmless Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 214	I believe I read that this is already treated water that goes directly to customers without anymore treatment. It is still a ridiculous waste of fresh water.
MostlyHarmless Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 214

17th April 2014, 11:07 AM	#8
Monketi Ghost Confusion Reactor Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 25,141	Only happening because of the ick factor. Bet the kids learn about parts per billion.

17th April 2014, 11:10 AM	#9
Aepervius Non credunt, semper verificare Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Sigil, the city of doors Posts: 14,571	Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless I believe I read that this is already treated water that goes directly to customers without anymore treatment. It is still a ridiculous waste of fresh water. For water freely in open air ? If a teenager can urinate in it, bird, rat can die and decompose in it. So I am doubtful of the above. Gut feeling would be that water is stored in that reservoire before treatment and distributed after treatment immediately. I could be wrong though.
	Last edited by Aepervius; 17th April 2014 at 11:11 AM.

17th April 2014, 11:13 AM	#10
The Greater Fool Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 4,400	From the article: Quote: Generally, urine in such a large volume of treated water poses little risk to the public, and even animals are known to answer the call of nature into the reservoir, which gets its water from the Bull Run watershed.
	__________________ - "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

17th April 2014, 11:45 AM	#11
Turgor Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 454	Originally Posted by madurobob Oh, its worse than that. The kid was probably drunk. So, this was a safety measure to prevent the entire city getting drunk when they had their morning glass of tap water. Shouldn't it become a hangover cure because of "like cures like"? Maybe the Portland drinking water authorities are in the pocket of Big Alka-Seltzer!
Turgor Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 454

17th April 2014, 12:30 PM	#12
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,564	Originally Posted by Ixion I was browsing news stories this morning, and came across this one: Portland Reservoir to be Drained After Teen Pees in Water Basically, if you don't want to read the article, a CCTV captures a young man urinating into a water reservoir. The teen was caught and officials are now going to drain all 38 million gallons of the reservoir in order to "clean up" the offending act. Now, this seems like a very costly overkill to me. First of all, I doubt that a couple hundred milliliters of urine in 38 million gallons of water is enough to contaminate it, provided that the urine has a substance in it that can contaminate it. Just based on a rough back-of-the-napkin calculation, you are very unlikely to even get a single molecule of urine in a gallon of reservoir water if it was distributed evenly. Secondly, I assume the cost of doing this will be passed onto the taxpayer. I can only imagine the price tag for such a clean up operation.Thirdly, I assume that the reservoir water is pre-treated with filters and other sanitation methods such as oxygenation prior to arriving at people's homes, so it should be safe to drink anyways. Finally, it seems like this kind of press just exacerbates people's fear of terrorist activity (or maybe it is a product of that fear) and creates a situation where the act of saving face becomes more important than any critical thinking about the safety of the public. Is my line of thinking misled? Absolutely ridiculous. If water is not fit to drink because one person urinated in 38 million gallons, the only water fit to drink is water from the headwaters of a stream. I'm pretty sure there are humans (animals too) upstream of Portland's water supply and it gets traces of urine in it all the time. FSM knows how many people have peed in New Orleans' drinking water before it gets to them, but I do know I'm one of them.
	Last edited by CORed; 17th April 2014 at 12:31 PM.

17th April 2014, 12:32 PM	#13
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,031	I hope there are no fish in the reservoir. Think of all the fish pee!
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

17th April 2014, 12:46 PM	#14
Spindrift Time Person of the Year, 2006 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 19,246	This is a wasterful pandering to the morons who would worry about such a thing.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon

17th April 2014, 12:47 PM	#15
Soapy Sam Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 28,764	I'm prepared to bet that the process of "cleaning" will put more contaminants in there, by several orders of magnitude, than if every boy scout in the city peed in it. If the decision is as the OP indicates and it was made by an engineer, then he should be fired, even if the guilty party had HIV, syphilis and Ebola.* * OK, maybe not ebola.

17th April 2014, 01:03 PM	#16
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,551	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam I'm prepared to bet that the process of "cleaning" will put more contaminants in there, by several orders of magnitude, than if every boy scout in the city peed in it. If the decision is as the OP indicates and it was made by an engineer, then he should be fired, even if the guilty party had HIV, syphilis and Ebola.* * OK, maybe not ebola. I feel confident that an engineer would just shrug at this and say "It's an uncovered tank, what did you expect? We found a rat floating in it last month."* If pushed, that "something must be done" I would propose video of a very sincere looking person, best if he has some official sciencey looking outfit and eye protection, dumping some diluted chlorine into the reservoir, taking measurements with a very sciencey looking gauge such as an electric hygrometer or thermometer, adding just a bit more, taking another measurement and then stepping back carefully as if he had just put everything back in balance. The Press statement could say something like: We analyzed the situation and prepared an appropriate treatment for the water impacted. The included video shows the reservoir being treated to ensure that this breach of security will not impact our customers. The cost of this analysis and treatment will be forwarded to the DA's office to aide in the calculation of restitution if appropriate. *Finding a dead rat in the skimmer of your pool late at night will cause urination issues, too.

17th April 2014, 02:02 PM	#17
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,031	Originally Posted by edd 200 ml in 38 million gallons is about 1 part in a billion. 1 gallon is what, 10²⁶ molecules of water? I don't think your calculation is right. Part of the confusion is that there is no such thing as a "molecule of urine." Urine is a solution of many components, but is still 95% water. Let's just look at the urea component. Urea runs about 9.3 g/L, so call it 2 g for the 200 mL sample. With a molecular weight of 60, we have 30 mmol. Now, how much water is there? 38e6 gallons, with each gallon being 128 oz and each oz is 30 mL, so I get 1.46e8 L. Water is 55 mol/L, so that means there are 8 billion moles of water. The urea concentration then is going to be 4 ppt, or 1.4e-5 mg/L According to this paper Kosm Biol Aviakosm Med. 1988 Jan-Feb;22(1):63-6. (abstract here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2896273) the threshold for concentration for affecting taste or flavor is 80 mg/L. Overall the recommendation is "In terms of toxic effects the dose equal to 10 mg/l is taken to be the maximally allowable concentration of urea. " So the paper puts the safe urea limit in water at 10 mg/L (3 ppm), or about 1 million times higher than this pee event. Even if the paper is off by a factor of 1000, it's still under the limit by a factor of a thousand. Alternatively, 1000 kids could pee in the reservoir and the urea concentration would still be 1000 times lower than the safe acceptable limit. More dumb things: assuming the proportion of Boy Scouts in Portland is the same as that nationwide (6 million Boy Scouts/300 million people), than that would mean there are about 12K Boy Scouts in Portland, which means that if EVERY Boy Scout in Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would STILL be 100 times less than allowable safe limit.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets Last edited by pgwenthold; 17th April 2014 at 02:13 PM.

17th April 2014, 02:09 PM	#18
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,918	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I feel confident that an engineer would just shrug at this and say "It's an uncovered tank, what did you expect? We found a rat floating in it last month." Or a bear. Or a bigfoot. Perhaps the ark is under there, too.
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,918

17th April 2014, 02:21 PM	#19
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,102	Originally Posted by Aepervius For water freely in open air ? If a teenager can urinate in it, bird, rat can die and decompose in it. So I am doubtful of the above. Gut feeling would be that water is stored in that reservoire before treatment and distributed after treatment immediately. I could be wrong though. From what I've read this it is indeed treated water; underground storage is being built to comply with new regulations, apparently. Can't imagine why .
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

17th April 2014, 02:29 PM	#20
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,102	Originally Posted by Spindrift This is a wasterful pandering to the morons who would worry about such a thing. More likely with an eye to lawyers salivating over a class action. Also getting across to the local youth that this is not cool, m'kay? That'll stop it happening again.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

17th April 2014, 04:06 PM	#21
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,564	Originally Posted by pgwenthold I hope there are no fish in the reservoir. Think of all the fish pee! IIRC, that was why W. C. Fields wouldn't touch water.

17th April 2014, 04:26 PM	#22
dlorde Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,859	Originally Posted by CORed IIRC, that was why W. C. Fields wouldn't touch water. Not quite - I believe it was their reproductive activity that he objected to (he didn't put it so delicately).
dlorde Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,859	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

17th April 2014, 04:45 PM	#23
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,768	Originally Posted by dlorde Not quite - I believe it was their reproductive activity that he objected to (he didn't put it so delicately). The tragedy of limited choices in regard to liquid sustenance is quite poignantly portrayed in Fields' documentary masterpiece, "The Fatal Glass of Beer."
	__________________ My kids still love me.

17th April 2014, 05:13 PM	#24
Slowvehicle Membership Drive Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls... Posts: 17,348	It's probably the fact that the scoutful of pee, added to all the "memory" of the homeopathic concentrations of dinosaur urine, and contaminants from ye fludde, put the concentration into homeopathically active levels...
	__________________ "They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

17th April 2014, 06:27 PM	#25
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,031	Re: my analysis above I just realized - if the entire population of Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would still only be 8 mg/L, still undetectable by taste and still under the safe allowable limit!
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

17th April 2014, 06:34 PM	#26
Slowvehicle Membership Drive Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls... Posts: 17,348	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Re: my analysis above I just realized - if the entire population of Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would still only be 8 mg/L, still undetectable by taste and still under the safe allowable limit! "Don't pee in here, You hadn't ought-ter, But watch out for The yellow water!"
	__________________ "They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

17th April 2014, 07:14 PM	#27
Dinwar Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 16,668	I have seen large reservoirs that did not have dead animals in them. It is not impossible. No urine? That's not going to happen. Some people drink urine. Insane, but then some people are not too rational. Urine is toxic, but not due to pathogens (most of the time, anyway). At these concentrations, I would be confident any toxins were diluted to well below most drinking water standards. Still, I can sympathize. Who wants to be the official that says "We consider it okay for your children to drink pee"? This is a political, not scientific, decision. You would be amazed how often that is the case.

17th April 2014, 07:31 PM	#28
jasonpatterson Philanthropic Misanthrope Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Space, The Final Frontier Posts: 2,556	I think it's ridiculous that they're draining the water over this, but at least I understand it (to prevent complaints or some other reason that I don't find compelling.) What I don't understand are the people who designed a water treatment system that stores drinking water in tanks exposed to the air, particularly tanks that are able to be reached by the public without any great effort. This guy didn't climb a razorwire fence and take a wee, he just peed through some bars into a pond. Surely dozens of birds fly over this and poop into it daily, and the occasional duck must land in there, even if it's not got any fish in it... This is begging someone to contaminate the water, for goodness sake. A bag of dog poop or worse, a bag of poison, and you've really done some damage.
	__________________ Sandra's seen a leprechaun, Eddie touched a troll, Laurie danced with witches once, Charlie found some goblins' gold. Donald heard a mermaid sing, Susie spied an elf, But all the magic I have known I've had to make myself. - Shel Silverstein Last edited by jasonpatterson; 17th April 2014 at 07:40 PM. Reason: I failed at they're. I will go live under a bridge now.

19th April 2014, 04:19 AM	#29
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,825	They should turn this calamity into a profit. Bottle and sell the water. "Portland Bottled Water: The Water With A Little Wang To It"
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,825	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

19th April 2014, 05:14 AM	#30
FreshHat Why, You Little... Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,246	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Re: my analysis above I just realized - if the entire population of Portland peed in the reservoir, the urea concentration would still only be 8 mg/L, still undetectable by taste and still under the safe allowable limit! You should pitch this idea to Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen.
	__________________ "Pull the wool over your own eyes, and relax in the safety of your own delusions." J.R. "Bob" Dobbs

19th April 2014, 07:18 AM	#31
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,985	Originally Posted by jasonpatterson This is begging someone to contaminate the water, for goodness sake. A bag of dog poop or worse, a bag of poison, and you've really done some damage. Agreed. If I knew my tap water was being stored in such a way, I wouldn't drink it. I usually don't drink tap water now just because of how often "boil water" warnings are given, but I do use it for ice cubes, cooking water, and brushing teeth.
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,985

19th April 2014, 08:22 AM	#32
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,385	What's really goofy is that this is the second time this has happened. In 2011 they had to drain the reservoir because someone peed in it. C'mon guys, add a membrane system already. Having your post-treated water all open and accessible is ludicrous.
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <-

19th April 2014, 08:25 AM	#33
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,620	Anyone else reminded of that scene in Caddyshack when they drain the pool and Carl picks up the Baby Ruth proclaiming "It's not so bad" before taking a bite? ~Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,620	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

19th April 2014, 08:27 AM	#34
Sherman Bay Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 2,424	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Part of the confusion is that there is no such thing as a "molecule of urine." Urine is a solution of many components, but is still 95% water. So the reservoir is being drained because someone added water to the water?

19th April 2014, 08:51 AM	#35
marting Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,688	This is roughly in line with stupid laws like requiring disclosure if someone sells a house where a murder was committed within some number of years. Could have ghosts. Ick factors may be irrational but we are dealing with humans and rationality is not one of their more outstanding traits.
marting Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,688	__________________ Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.