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Tags gun control issues , mental illness issues

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Old 22nd May 2014, 11:18 PM   #81
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You can't deny civil rights arbitrarily.
Why not, they are awarded arbitrarily.
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Old 22nd May 2014, 11:22 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I'm pretty sure you said have them and not need them. The reason I seem to remember is because I was rather surprised at that thought.
It's entirely possible. Like I said, it would probably depend on context. I might have been a bit sloppy with my words that day. I hope I've clarified sufficiently.
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Old 22nd May 2014, 11:58 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
And in the same spirit, to you as well.
Not having access to a gun, there is absolutely zero chance that one day I will fly into a rage and shoot someone or get so confused by dementia that I accidentally shoot my wife/relative/friend/caregiver believing them to be an intruder with murderous intent. If I had access to a gun that chance would be small but non-zero.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 03:12 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Tell me more about these "gun nuts" and their paradigms. How will I know one when I see him?
I guess I consider a gun nut to be anyone who regards the right to own guns as integral to political liberty, and who thinks that American society is better off or more secure because of widespread gun ownership.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 04:42 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not having access to a gun, there is absolutely zero chance that one day I will fly into a rage and shoot someone or get so confused by dementia that I accidentally shoot my wife/relative/friend/caregiver believing them to be an intruder with murderous intent. If I had access to a gun that chance would be small but non-zero.
What is the chance that you will fly into a rage and stab someone with a kitchen knife? Small but non-zero?
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Old 23rd May 2014, 05:06 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not having access to a gun, there is absolutely zero chance that one day I will fly into a rage and shoot someone or get so confused by dementia that I accidentally shoot my wife/relative/friend/caregiver believing them to be an intruder with murderous intent. If I had access to a gun that chance would be small but non-zero.
Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
What is the chance that you will fly into a rage and stab someone with a kitchen knife? Small but non-zero?
There is for me. But we were talking about guns. I understand there might be a concern about knives, but it's a separate conversation.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 06:13 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
There is for me. But we were talking about guns. I understand there might be a concern about knives, but it's a separate conversation.
I don't think it is realistic to limit the discussion in such a way that makes guns the only way a crazy person can assault someone.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 06:30 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
What is the chance that you will fly into a rage and stab someone with a kitchen knife? Small but non-zero?
Correct but:
  • You also have the same risk of attacking with a kitchen knife, the gun is in addition to this risk
  • A kitchen knife can only kill in very close proximity, giving the potential victim more of a chance to escape or never becoming a potential victim, guns on the other hand can kill at a distance
  • Guns are more likely to result in a fatal injury than a knife
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Old 23rd May 2014, 06:51 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I don't think it is realistic to limit the discussion in such a way that makes guns the only way a crazy person can assault someone.
Well, color me confused.
* Are you advocating limiting knife sales to people with mental health issues because knives are dangerous like guns?

* Are you advocating not limiting gun sales to people with mental health issues because knives are an alternate choice?

* Something else altogether?

Perhaps you could clarify where knives fall into the mix.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:06 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Perhaps you could clarify where knives fall into the mix.
Knives, guns and a lot of other multi-purpose tools can be used as weapons. I think it makes more sense to address the problem cause (crazy people) rather than some of the tools they might use to assault people. Otherwise, you still have crazy people that could assault people.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:27 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Well, color me confused.
* Are you advocating limiting knife sales to people with mental health issues because knives are dangerous like guns?

* Are you advocating not limiting gun sales to people with mental health issues because knives are an alternate choice?

* Something else altogether?

Perhaps you could clarify where knives fall into the mix.
You're missing the big picture. Haven't you followed any of these threads?

A gun is like the wafer in Holy Communion.

To the heathen, the wafer is just a scrap of bread... but when it is consumed by the faithful, it becomes the body of Christ.

Similarly, a gun in the possession of an evil-doer (or someone who is mentally ill) is no more dangerous than a knife or a golf club, so there's no point in restricting gun sales.

But in the hands of a righteous Gun Nut, a gun acquires transcendent power and virtue, so Gun Nuts must be allowed to have guns, lest we all perish under the yoke of tyranny.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 10:39 AM   #92
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Seriously, I'm a broken record on this point, but you have to talk about upsides and downsides.

Downsides of widespread knife ownership: Lots and lots of accidental injuries, mostly minor hand injuries. Very small chance of being used in an assault.

Downsides of my personal knife ownership: Large chance of minor hand injuries to me or family members. If mental illness, etc., strikes something worse could happen, but death is unlikely.

Upsides of knife ownership: uniquely indispensable for cooking and eating, which nearly 100% of people do. Life in a knife-free household would be a huge, expensive hassle, front and center, every single day of my life.

Downsides of widespread handgun ownership: Criminals have no trouble buying guns because they're so common and cheap---thus 10,000 murders, 500k armed robberies, etc., and all of the losses incurred by people who live in fear of same.

Downsides of my personal (hypothetical) handgun ownership: My family's chance of accidents goes from 0 to nonzero (600+/y nationwide). If mental illness strikes, extremely bad outcomes become frighteningly common, including death (20,000 suicides/y nationwide) and much worse (Newtown).

Upsides to handgun ownership: Nothing big. People who are irrationally hyper-afraid of burglars want them. Target shooting is fun. Certain hunting activities are, apparently, better suited to handguns. Some handgun owners use their handguns as a prop in a roleplaying fantasy in which they become armed antidemocracy terrorists "overthrow a tyrant". So, handguns? No daily upsides, no irreplaceable upsides, etc..

That's why "regulate guns" is a better idea than "regulate knives" or "regulate cars even more than we do now". Universal knife ownership has huge upsides and minor downsides. Near-universal handgun ownership has huge downsides and very few upsides. Are we done with the "knife" comparison now, please? Good.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 11:50 AM   #93
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+2 on the previous two posts. Well said.

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Old 23rd May 2014, 11:51 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Sure, it "might" be. What is the evidence that it is?
Nothing concrete, that is why I said might.

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Old 23rd May 2014, 12:11 PM   #95
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If I am asked whether I would want to confront a crazy person armed with a knife or with a gun, the answer seems easy enough. But of course, when you come right down to it, I'd want to avoid the crazy person even if they were only armed with their own teeth.

Which brings up another possible controversy. If, in order to save my gun collection, I have to shift the focus toward crazy people instead of their armaments, how is that going to fly against the rather modern idea that crazy people shouldn't be arbitrarily sequestered, but medicated and embedded in society instead. It's a tough sell if the new choice is going to be between keeping them safely away from us, or arming myself in case they are freely roaming, with access to deadly tools.

Keep the kids off the playground or make a safer playground? Current thinking seems to be: make no changes, but buy a first-aid kit.

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Old 23rd May 2014, 12:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So it is the pistol scope you object to? Doesn't really make any sense to me at all. Can you put your objections to handgun hunting in words that actually make some sense?

When I went hunting in Hawaii I found that carrying a handgun in the thick brush while hunting hogs was more convenient than a rifle. Since the longest shot I would hope to take was less than 50 yards, the handgun was more practical. If you got out from under your rock (prejudices) you might be able to understand this.

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Actually a short barreled shotgun with slugs would be my weapon of choice for hogs in the brush. Big pistol as a sidearm if you are in brown bear country hiking/fishing. That truly is the only exception I see for handguns. Don't get me wrong, I have shot my share of pistols and have enjoyed it. I still don't see the utile value when weighed against the harm pistols bring to our society. I will seartch for the statistic if needed but I conjecture that for every succesful thwarting of a home invasion with a handgun there are many more accidental deaths/murders that can be claimed. There are other more appropriate weapons that can be used for hunting or home protection than pistols. When was the last time a 4 year old shot themselves with a long gun?
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Old 23rd May 2014, 12:35 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I don't think it is realistic to limit the discussion in such a way that makes guns the only way a crazy person can assault someone.
Tell you what, let's not arbitrarily rely on opinions here. How about I give you $1 for every death resulting from an attack with a kitchen knife and you give me $1 for every death resulting from an attack with a gun.

Deal?
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Old 23rd May 2014, 12:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The lunatics we've been reading about for the most part were giving off negative signals long before the massacres happened.
Cool, can I be the one who arbitrates what those signals are if they get a gun?
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Old 23rd May 2014, 01:02 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by sloinker View Post
Actually a short barreled shotgun with slugs would be my weapon of choice for hogs in the brush.
Short barreled shotguns have been illegal for most civilians in WA since 1994. The irony is that the Youth Violence Act of 1994 banned new purchase of these guns by law abiding civilians even though no one ever claimed they were ever associated with violent crime in the state. One of the bill authors said they banned the guns to reduce calls for major restrictions, in other words just because they could.

Originally Posted by sloinker View Post
I still don't see the utile value when weighed against the harm pistols bring to our society.
This is different than your earlier claim that “handguns have no real utility value except robbing liquor stores or wiping out innocent victims….”

Originally Posted by sloinker View Post
There are other more appropriate weapons that can be used for hunting or home protection than pistols.
If the firearm can be used by the hunter to quickly kill the animal then it does not really matter what kind is used, handgun or rifle. Ever hear of the TC G2 or Encore? They are handguns designed for the hunter, powerful and accurate enough to get the job done.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 23rd May 2014 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 02:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's entirely possible. Like I said, it would probably depend on context. I might have been a bit sloppy with my words that day. I hope I've clarified sufficiently.
Yup, thank you.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 02:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not having access to a gun, there is absolutely zero chance that one day I will fly into a rage and shoot someone or get so confused by dementia that I accidentally shoot my wife/relative/friend/caregiver believing them to be an intruder with murderous intent. If I had access to a gun that chance would be small but non-zero.
You said 'weapon' so my response was perfectly justified that we all hope you don't go crazy and kill people with whatever weapon close to hand.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 02:14 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
You're missing the big picture. Haven't you followed any of these threads?

A gun is like the wafer in Holy Communion.

To the heathen, the wafer is just a scrap of bread... but when it is consumed by the faithful, it becomes the body of Christ.

Similarly, a gun in the possession of an evil-doer (or someone who is mentally ill) is no more dangerous than a knife or a golf club, so there's no point in restricting gun sales.

But in the hands of a righteous Gun Nut, a gun acquires transcendent power and virtue, so Gun Nuts must be allowed to have guns, lest we all perish under the yoke of tyranny.
A true zealot's screed, you wrote.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 04:21 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
A true zealot's screed, you wrote.
And a false dichotomy to boot. Apparently there are only two kinds of gun owners, evil doers and gun nuts.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 04:37 PM   #104
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My $.02

I own a bar in a high-crime area adjacent to a major Mediterranean port. I'm over 60. I've had to toss quite a few customers, sometimes 2 and 3 at a time (my trick: quick adrenaline vs clumsy wooziness; command psychology). Some were dangerous. A few were just hours out of prison.

Some come back and pick fights.

Guns are basically illegal here, and are very hard to get even for hunting. Great!

I calmly go about my life precisely because of the low probability of facing a firearm. Guns, in my situation, would make life far worse. Let only the cops have them, at least on city streets.

I'll go further. In matters of personal dispute among men, I consider guns cowardly. They are fine for home protection in rural or isolated areas, hunting, and sport shooting on a range or a farm, the last of which I enjoy immensely. I adore blasting targets and blowing stuff up (legally, harmlessly, victimlessly). But guns for fighting? Any miserable creature with a grudge can think himself a man with a firearm. In this specific case, it's a penis substitute.

Carrying or possessing a firearm in public within city limits ought to be automatic jail-time (of course with possibilities for legal transport in place, such point-to-point permits). Not gonna happen in the US; glad it happens here.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 05:05 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Short barreled shotguns have been illegal for most civilians in WA since 1994. The irony is that the Youth Violence Act of 1994 banned new purchase of these guns by law abiding civilians even though no one ever claimed they were ever associated with violent crime in the state. One of the bill authors said they banned the guns to reduce calls for major restrictions, in other words just because they could.


This is different than your earlier claim that “handguns have no real utility value except robbing liquor stores or wiping out innocent victims….”


If the firearm can be used by the hunter to quickly kill the animal then it does not really matter what kind is used, handgun or rifle. Ever hear of the TC G2 or Encore? They are handguns designed for the hunter, powerful and accurate enough to get the job done.

Ranb
Are short barreled shotguns illegal in Hawaii where you hunted hogs?
Seems like I'm not the only one adjusting their claims......
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Old 23rd May 2014, 05:17 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
And a false dichotomy to boot. Apparently there are only two kinds of gun owners, evil doers and gun nuts.
I agree he missed something. There are three kinds of handgun owners:
  • evildoers who want handguns
  • gun nuts who love handguns
  • people who do not actually need America's anonymously-traded semiautomatic handguns and would actually be fine with, at most, the sort of specialized target pistols that are legal in the UK if you have a Section 1 license (obtainable with a doctor's note, two character references, and explanation of the need for a gun.)

Also, there are two types of non-handgun owner!
  • People who have to live surrounded by handguns and all of their consequences, whether they like it or not, so inescapably that putting a sign in your coffee shop saying that you don't like guns in your coffee shop prompts gun nuts to bring guns into your coffee shop, for crying out loud
  • Dead people
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Old 23rd May 2014, 05:47 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Er, it sounds like the sort of thing I might have said at one point, depending on context. It would probably be more accurate to say that I believe that even police shouldn't need firearms. If your average crim can't get them, why do cops need them?

Anyway, even if I do grant that LEOs have a demonstrated need for firearms, how does that contradict what I said about people having to demonstrate need in order to acquire them?
Who gets to define need? This could work out not in your favor as much as in your favor. I'm sure you envision someone with your views defining it but it could just as easily be a gun loving old boy who would make a rubber stamp look anti gun.

Need is a very subjective term, hence why using it as a guide would be catastrophic.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 05:56 PM   #108
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I see so much fear and so little logic.

The situation is simple, if you fear crazies with guns there are two options.

First arm yourself, it's not a perfect defense, but it is a better chance than bare hands.

Or

Somehow get everyone to disarm themselves, from law abiding gun owners to criminals. And somehow restrict the easily available parts for gun manufacturing, without crippling industries such as home construction and general contracting.

Now ask yourselves, which option is more realistic?

If you want a bogey man to fear by all means keep trying too somehow stuff the genie back in the bottle. But if you want todo something that even has a chance of saving your life, just get a gun.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 08:01 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by sloinker View Post
Are short barreled shotguns illegal in Hawaii where you hunted hogs?
Seems like I'm not the only one adjusting their claims......
Where am I adjusting? I lived in Hawaii from 1989 to 1999 and hunted with a rifle and handgun. I moved to Washington State in 1999. Both states ban SBS.

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Old 23rd May 2014, 08:35 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Where am I adjusting? I lived in Hawaii from 1989 to 1999 and hunted with a rifle and handgun. I moved to Washington State in 1999. Both states ban SBS.

Ranb
My understanding, which could be faulty, is that a person can own an SBS as long as they have the Federal Firearms license tax stamp thingy.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:03 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
My understanding, which could be faulty, is that a person can own an SBS as long as they have the Federal Firearms license tax stamp thingy.
Correct. But if the state does not allow a person to own them, the BATFE will not issue the stamp. We got the short rifles back this year, going to work on the short shotguns next session. Probably take a few years though.

As far as I know Wyoming doesn't ban any type of firearm at all.

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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:23 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Correct. But if the state does not allow a person to own them, the BATFE will not issue the stamp. We got the short rifles back this year, going to work on the short shotguns next session. Probably take a few years though.

As far as I know Wyoming doesn't ban any type of firearm at all.

Ranb
Interesting. I didn't know that some states could ban them in general, even with the class III.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:27 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
My understanding, which could be faulty, is that a person can own an SBS as long as they have the Federal Firearms license tax stamp thingy.
A federal permit for an NFA firearm doesn't supersede state and local statute for stays in the jurisdiction. For instance, New York state law prohibits civilian possession of NFA firearms -- regardless of their federal status. This doesn't include BATFE-approved travel through the jurisdiction with normal rest and service stops. There's a town very close to me that bans possession of NFA firearms by municipal code which would also make it a federal offense to possess a taxed and registered NFA firearm in that jurisdiction.
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If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm
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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:54 PM   #114
EeneyMinnieMoe
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There was a mind-blowing story a few months ago, one that sounded like a joke on "Saturday Night Live", about a blind man who had twice shot someone (once fatally) and had once assaulted a woman who not only wasn't convicted of murder but demanded to have his guns given back to him after the fatal shooting...and was indeed given the right to have two firearms around.

This is beyond jaw-dropping.

Here's a link to the story:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...riend-gun-back

So here's a good place to start, though I admit the issue does have a very slippery slope attached to it:

If you are completely blind, have a criminal record, have twice assaulted someone in recent years, have attempted to murder a family member and have recently murdered one of your friends, you don't get to have guns.
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Last edited by EeneyMinnieMoe; 23rd May 2014 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 11:19 PM   #115
Jrrarglblarg
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Knives, guns and a lot of other multi-purpose tools can be used as weapons. I think it makes more sense to address the problem cause (crazy people) rather than some of the tools they might use to assault people. Otherwise, you still have crazy people that could assault people.
I've been saying the exact thing in these threads, that we need to address the root problem of mental health in society, rather than letting the actions of an unhealthy minority determine what rights the healthy majority of us get to practice.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 11:35 PM   #116
ben m
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
First arm yourself, it's not a perfect defense, but it is a better chance than bare hands.
Baloney. "Arm yourself" doesn't make you safer. You think it does because of the "fallacy of misleading vividness"---the (rare) case where a gun is good, i.e. a Hollywood-style armed-self-defense event, is vivid and exciting and easy to daydream about; the (common) cases where a gun is bad, like when a family member becomes irrational or suicidal, or a gun is stolen in an empty-house burglary and kills someone you've never met, are boring/depressing and hard to daydream about. This fallacy makes people ignore the common but boring possibilities and mistakenly think the "vivid" possibility is common.

Even on the "vivid" side, guns are not a defense, they're an anti-defense. A burglar breaking into your house is going to ignore you if you hide or sneak away with your bare hands. They're going to get away with your cash or your painkillers or whatever and you'll be fine. If you do one thing, anything whatsoever, that falls in the category of "self defense", you've made things worse than if you'd been barehanded.

Also, "arm yourself" instantly upgrades all sorts of minor misfortunes from "embarrassing/scary story to tell later" into "one dead and one in custody". Inquisitive children (yours, visitors), drunken anger (by you, family, houseguests), mental illness flareups (you, family members, houseguests), or fear/rage/mistaken identity) from "embarrassing/scary story to tell later" into "someone is dead and I'm in jail".

Quote:
Somehow get everyone to disarm themselves, from law abiding gun owners to criminals.
You don't have to have "criminals disarm themselves". You have to get the people who sell guns---law-abiding people like you, who buy guns legally and pass NICS checks while doing so---to stop selling guns to complete strangers. Which you're free to do now (it's even legal!) but you would not be able to do if the guns you bought had a legal- or financial-responsibility-bearing title connecting the gun's serial number to your name and address.

Imagine a car-sale law that said your car-insurance would remain active until a new owner's insurance was on file. That'd make it very, very hard for anonymity-needing people to buy cars; no self-interested person would sell you one if you weren't willing to attach your own name to it. If you make it the same way with guns, and gradually (10-20y) it'll deplete the supply of (and increase the street price of) the cheapo street guns that fuel most drug/gang violence.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 11:41 PM   #117
marplots
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Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon View Post
I've been saying the exact thing in these threads, that we need to address the root problem of mental health in society, rather than letting the actions of an unhealthy minority determine what rights the healthy majority of us get to practice.
How about this then? You temporarily yield some of your rights while we work on this other problem. Once we have that fixed, you get your rights back. Think of it like imposing a curfew under marshal law.
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Old 24th May 2014, 12:04 AM   #118
EeneyMinnieMoe
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...

No one is going to make a joke about a blind man with a criminal record and a tendency to attempt to kill house guests having guns?

You disappoint me.
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Old 24th May 2014, 12:08 AM   #119
ben m
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Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon View Post
I've been saying the exact thing in these threads, that we need to address the root problem of mental health in society, rather than letting the actions of an unhealthy minority determine what rights the healthy majority of us get to practice.
Tell me, in what domain of law do we demand that a law only affect criminals and never lay a finger, even a paperwork finger, on law-abiding folks? Are restaurant inspectors forbidden from entering clean restaurants? Does the "healthy majority" of Percocet users just walk into pharmacies and take whatever they want, no questions asked, because we can't burden them with the enforcement issues of the minority of abusers? Are police sobriety checkpoints forbidden from asking sober drivers to roll down their windows to verify sobriety? Does the DMV ask drivers with perfect records to put plates on their vehicles, or are we "letting speeders and double-parkers" impose car-related laws on the rest of us? Does the IRS audit random taxpayers to check whether they're honest, or is it only allowed to audit known felons?

If not---yes, it is OK if the effort to keep guns away from criminals imposes burdens on noncriminals. That's how all laws work.
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Old 24th May 2014, 06:09 AM   #120
12AX7
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
Knives, guns and a lot of other multi-purpose tools can be used as weapons. I think it makes more sense to address the problem cause (crazy people) rather than some of the tools they might use to assault people. Otherwise, you still have crazy people that could assault people.
Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon View Post
I've been saying the exact thing in these threads, that we need to address the root problem of mental health in society, rather than letting the actions of an unhealthy minority determine what rights the healthy majority of us get to practice.
Excellent idea fellas.

Now, how do you do that? How do you filter the mental health issues? I said once in one of these ridiculous gun threads that we need to address the mental health issue, maybe via mandatory mental health screening for gun purchase applicants. It was an idea, not perfect, but an idea.

Instead of counter ideas, it was hand-waved away with cries of "FREEDOM!" and "RIGHTS!".

So, how do you plan to do this?

ETA: I fully understand (as I suspect most do) that perfectly normal, sane people can snap and have a meltdown.

Last edited by 12AX7; 24th May 2014 at 06:13 AM.
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