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Old 9th June 2016, 10:23 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I only became aware of the case recently due to Facebook posts about it, particularly the letter from the victim and complaints about the photo of the perpetrator. Apologies if the answers to my questions below are known, I didn't come across them in the articles I read:

What I haven't seen in the coverage is how the victim came to be in such a vulnerable position. Did she just get very drunk and end up in an unfortunate place on her own, or is there a suggestion that someone (Brock or someone else) got her drunk or drugged her, or found her in that state and took her to where the rape happened?

(Note: I'm not for a moment suggesting that she's to blame, just wanting to understand how it happened.)
According to Turner, he invited her back to her dorm room. She agreed. They were holding hands when she fell down, and they lay on the ground making out.

No one "got her drunk", except herself.

No one reported any indication that she was abducted against her will, and she has no memory of the incident.
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Old 9th June 2016, 10:52 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
According to Turner, he invited her back to her dorm room. She agreed. They were holding hands when she fell down, and they lay on the ground making out.

No one "got her drunk", except herself.

No one reported any indication that she was abducted against her will, and she has no memory of the incident.
Is that possible that this was the lead up before the rape? Or is that disputed?
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Old 9th June 2016, 10:55 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Did she just get very drunk and end up in an unfortunate place on her own, or is there a suggestion that someone (Brock or someone else) got her drunk or drugged her, or found her in that state and took her to where the rape happened?
I've seen no suggestion that she was drugged. Her blood alcohol content was measured, and it was very high, enough to account for being passed out. I suspect that they would probably also test for drugs, given the circumstances, so I consider it unlikely she was under the influence of anything other than alcohol, though that's sufficient to incapacitate a person, and she absolutely was incapacitated.
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:00 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm from Canada and I'm pretty sure that's right around what he would get here. I say this because I see a lot of Canadians outraged at the sentence, not realize it's pretty much what they would get here. My buddies dad molested his toddler granddaughter for like 2 years. He got 6 months and was out in 3.

Well, bear in mind, in sentencing, any time served while awaiting trial is factored in (at a two-to-one ratio, I think it is) and credited against any prison time handed out in the sentence. Then there's eligibility for parole, which usually starts well before the full length of the sentence, and so on.

In Canada, one sentence for murder is life in prison—except that it really isn't necessarily life in prison; the convicted person can apply for parole after ten years or twenty-five years, depending on the specific 'life in prison' sentence assigned. So theoretically someone sentenced to 'life in prison' could be out in ten years. (Probably doesn't happen that often though.)
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:04 AM   #405
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An additional note: because this case went to the police and the courts and not through a campus title 9 process, the perpetrator is getting actual jail time and a permanent felony record. The jail time may be shorter than it should be, but when these matters are handled by campus administrators instead of the police, the perpetrator gets NO jail time, ever, and no permanent felony record either. These cases belong in the criminal justice system. Even when a judge goes soft on the perpetrator (and I don't think this is the norm), it's still far better justice than a campus tribunal can ever deliver.
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:22 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that is an outcome made much more likely by drinking at frat parties, so we just project back a bit and anyone who attends frat parties is by definition reckless and irresponsible.

No, they are only reckless and irresponsible if an attendee drinks to the point of passing out. It is entirely possible for a person to stop drinking before that point; plenty of people are able to exercise such self-control and judgement.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only if it was a decision and not simply a mistake.

How can deliberately consuming enough alcohol so as to render oneself unconscious be 'a mistake'? Can you offer a scenario by which that can happen in error?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And focuses on the responsibility she bears in this rape, as such it is a good way to help justify the light sentence that he received.

No, that is your projection. Nowhere have I said that getting drunk to the point of unconsciousness means that person is responsible for what happened to them, either in whole nor in part. Indeed, I have stated the opposite—a bad decision does not mean the person 'deserves' a bad outcome happening to them.

The only party responsible for a crime is the perpetrator. No one else.

Let me illustrate by an analogy. A person needs to dash into a convenience store to pick something up. In doing so, they leave their car running and the keys in the ignition. Their car gets stolen as a result. Is that person responsible for the crime? Of course not. The only responsible party is the person who stole the car. But the driver did make a poor decision which made themselves an easy target for a criminal.

It is useful to understand the context within which a crime occurs, so that individual citizens can factor in that information so as to help keep themselves safe.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just ask his friend who wrote the character reference for the court. There is a big difference between this guy and real rapists.

A friend sticking up for a friend? Hardly an unknown act. Relatively few people are willing to turn against a relative or a close friend who has done something wrong. Loyalty of that nature tends to run deep in human beings, even if it is misplaced loyalty.
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:31 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
two females, a counselor and a friend wrote letters of support for Brock. they are now both getting heat. one of them is in a band and the band is now getting their gigs cancelled.

how do letters to the judge get released to the public? why only letters from females as well?
Why wouldn't letters important to a case be matters of public record?
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:34 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why wouldn't letters important to a case be matters of public record?
It's quite common for information submitted to the court for adjudication to be under protective order or seal. In both criminal trails and civil suits, it is very unusual for everything to be made public record.
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:35 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
How can deliberately consuming enough alcohol so as to render oneself unconscious be 'a mistake'? Can you offer a scenario by which that can happen in error?
See lots of people making points about drinks of difficult to determine strength and all the people who have gotten a lot drunker than they intended by drinking things stronger than they thought.

We are getting back to the irresponsible thing is being a woman at a frat party.

Quote:
A friend sticking up for a friend? Hardly an unknown act. Relatively few people are willing to turn against a relative or a close friend who has done something wrong. Loyalty of that nature tends to run deep in human beings, even if it is misplaced loyalty.
Hey it isn't like he is a real rapist after all.
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Old 9th June 2016, 11:43 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
The only party responsible for a crime is the perpetrator. No one else.
But why do we have to agree with this?

If I pressure my buddy to drive a car drunk, even if he objects, then goes on to kill a family driving. Why am I not partly responsible?

The parents the ruthlessly abuse a child that grows up half insane and goes on to be a serial killer. To me their parents are just as responsible.... hell maybe more.
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:28 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
See lots of people making points about drinks of difficult to determine strength and all the people who have gotten a lot drunker than they intended by drinking things stronger than they thought.

So a person cannot tell when they are getting inebriated?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
We are getting back to the irresponsible thing is being a woman at a frat party.

No, that is your projection. Again.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey it isn't like he is a real rapist after all.

Do you miss points on purpose? Or is it merely an accident?



Originally Posted by Caper View Post
But why do we have to agree with this?

You don't. I was stating my position on the matter.


Originally Posted by Caper View Post
If I pressure my buddy to drive a car drunk, even if he objects, then goes on to kill a family driving. Why am I not partly responsible?

Unless your 'pressure' included threats of violence, your buddy had the option to say no.


Originally Posted by Caper View Post
The parents the ruthlessly abuse a child that grows up half insane and goes on to be a serial killer. To me their parents are just as responsible.... hell maybe more.

I'm not sure how you would codify that into law and make it a crime for which someone could be arrested and tried.
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:31 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
But why do we have to agree with this?

If I pressure my buddy to drive a car drunk, even if he objects, then goes on to kill a family driving. Why am I not partly responsible?
Because at the end of the day your buddy could have said 'no, I am in no shape to drive, now ******** off and call a cab!"

Quote:
The parents the ruthlessly abuse a child that grows up half insane and goes on to be a serial killer. To me their parents are just as responsible.... hell maybe more.
They might be, but how are you going to figure that out?
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:35 PM   #413
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In addition to still showing no remorse for the victim, it seems that our innocent-boy-seduced-by-demon-alcohol is a bit of a liar about his drinking and drug use.
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:51 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Yeah. I don't think it should be illegal to have sex with a drunk person, especially if you are also drunk. So I don't like the 1st charge at all. It absolutely should be a crime to have sex with an unconscious person, but what I don't get is that seems to say that if she was conscious and he dragged her kicking and screaming, he would have only been charged with the one felony instead of the 2, where the kicking and screaming scenario seems much, much worst to me. Maybe there is a greater charge to deal with that discrepancy.
You are free to dislike it, I am free to think the judge needs to be recalled and unfrocked and the ******* needs time in the big house with some big bad guys
who, if caught riding his butt or putting their arms up it to the elbow get six extra months for it!!!!!
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:53 PM   #415
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Fair for the goose is fair for the gander!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:55 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Because at the end of the day your buddy could have said 'no, I am in no shape to drive, now ******** off and call a cab!"
He could have but he didn't. So it leaves us trying to guage responsibility. Obviously you say it's 100% the driver. No I disagree.
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:57 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You are free to dislike it, I am free to think the judge needs to be recalled and unfrocked and the ******* needs time in the big house with some big bad guys
who, if caught riding his butt or putting their arms up it to the elbow get six extra months for it!!!!!
If you were the Warden would you room him with this guy?
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:03 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You are free to dislike it, I am free to think the judge needs to be recalled and unfrocked and the ******* needs time in the big house with some big bad guys
who, if caught riding his butt or putting their arms up it to the elbow get six extra months for it!!!!!

And that seems to be the sole point of contention with this case. If he had received a stiffer sentence presumably this thread wouldn't exist. But as I have pointed out, a seemingly lenient sentence in some legal cases sometimes happens. (See, again, the case of Ethan Couch for a recent well-known example.) But I also expect if one combed through the sentences handed out to convicted persons we'd find instances of sentences that seem unduly harsh for the given crime.
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:04 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
If I pressure my buddy to drive a car drunk, even if he objects, then goes on to kill a family driving. Why am I not partly responsible?
But in this example, you are pressuring your buddy into breaking the Law, you are partly responsible for that. This woman did NOT pressure Turner into raping her. What she did, (get drunk at a frat party) may not have been the wisest thing to do, but it was NOT against the law

Originally Posted by Caper View Post
The parents the ruthlessly abuse a child that grows up half insane and goes on to be a serial killer. To me their parents are just as responsible.... hell maybe more.
In this example, the parents are breaking the Law in the way that they treated their child as he was growing up. This woman did NOT abuse Turner and turn him into a rapist. Again, getting drunk at a frat party may not have been very wise, but it was NOT against the law.

However, in this second example, I do agree that Turner's parents are partly to blame for what their boy ultimately did. Its pretty obvious from the thoughtless content of the father's letter, that Brock Turner has for his entire life, been given a free pass and been excused for any of his bad behaviour. Young Turner has learned that he can get away with anything and not bear the consequences because daddy will excuse him or bale him out. I wouldn't mind betting that at some time he has gone into bat for his boy when his school has punished him for something he has done.
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:20 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But in this example, you are pressuring your buddy into breaking the Law, you are partly responsible for that. This woman did NOT pressure Turner into raping her. What she did, (get drunk at a frat party) may not have been the wisest thing to do, but it was NOT against the law
I'm not equating the two examples. There is this weird idea going around that when it comes to rape (and seemingly only rape) one cannot discuss contributing factors and can only fall back on.... Only rapists rape... or that rapists are responsible 100% of the time. As if anyone bringing alcohol or drugs up is actually trying to argue that the alcohol physically got up and committed the rape.
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:21 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
If you were the Warden would you room him with this guy?
No, that guy should be hung slowly. while having his favorite appendage removed with a dullish butter knife.
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:23 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But in this example, you are pressuring your buddy into breaking the Law, you are partly responsible for that. This woman did NOT pressure Turner into raping her. What she did, (get drunk at a frat party) may not have been the wisest thing to do, but it was NOT against the law



In this example, the parents are breaking the Law in the way that they treated their child as he was growing up. This woman did NOT abuse Turner and turn him into a rapist. Again, getting drunk at a frat party may not have been very wise, but it was NOT against the law.

However, in this second example, I do agree that Turner's parents are partly to blame for what their boy ultimately did. Its pretty obvious from the thoughtless content of the father's letter, that Brock Turner has for his entire life, been given a free pass and been excused for any of his bad behaviour. Young Turner has learned that he can get away with anything and not bear the consequences because daddy will excuse him or bale him out. I wouldn't mind betting that at some time he has gone into bat for his boy when his school has punished him for something he has done.
Very glad the drug thing has come out - I trust that will end the little ****'s swimming and Doctor career!!!!

ETA: and his father's standing in the community and business world.

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Old 9th June 2016, 01:24 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

However, in this second example, I do agree that Turner's parents are partly to blame for what their boy ultimately did. Its pretty obvious from the thoughtless content of the father's letter, that Brock Turner has for his entire life, been given a free pass and been excused for any of his bad behaviour. Young Turner has learned that he can get away with anything and not bear the consequences because daddy will excuse him or bale him out. I wouldn't mind betting that at some time he has gone into bat for his boy when his school has punished him for something he has done.


Again. I'm not equating the two. And that's the other thing I see. If anyone brings up alcohol, it's immediately dismissed with these pathetic shallow brainless SJW platitudes, like "only rapists are 100% responsible for rape" only to almost immediately assign blame to the father for the rape.,
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:25 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
No, that guy should be hung slowly. while having his favorite appendage removed with a dullish butter knife.
Haha... both? Or just the John Mongrel guy?
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:58 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Rape is bad. Very, very bad. However I wonder if sending someone away for 15 years solves anything or teaches him a valuable life lesson so that he doesn't so it again. Somehow you seem to equate this with saying that rape isn't bad.
Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize how utterly excessive and ultimately counterproductive long prison sentences are. In Sweden he'd likely be sentenced to something like 19-20 months in prison, of which only 2/3 would be served in prison, which i think is perfectly reasonable.

Then again considering the fact that the only two options available to Americans is either a comically short prison sentence or 20554646 years in prison (or some other laughably meaningless number) I'd prefer the former.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:09 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize how utterly excessive and ultimately counterproductive long prison sentences are. In Sweden he'd likely be sentenced to something like 19-20 months in prison, of which only 2/3 would be served in prison, which i think is perfectly reasonable.
I have come around to agreeing with you. There are just so many issues with them. But I still believe some criminals should never see the light of day.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:11 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
So a person cannot tell when they are getting inebriated?

A person can drink enough to become very, very drunk before they even realise they're particularly drunk at all. There's a delay between imbibing and effect.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:41 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am applying it. The thing is that being a victim of a crime isn't what they want, but commiting a crime is what people who fantasize about comitting rape do fantasize about. They just have empathy and ethics that get in the way. As I had already said.
So you are, in fact, not applying it. You are applying a double standard. Fantasising about commiting a crime somehow leads to that crime but fantasising about being a victim doesn't lead to that.

Quote:
Why are fantasies about being raped useful to the discussion here at all?
I don't think that they are but you're the one who brought them up. Take it up with yourself.
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:09 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Is that possible that this was the lead up before the rape? Or is that disputed?
I'm not sure I understand the question.

Certainly, she was intoxicated when they left the party. That is not disputed. If I recall correctly, she was sufficiently intoxicated that she does not remember leaving the party with him, but she did remember him being at the party. I could be wrong on either of those assertions.

Certainly, her level of intoxication played a role in the events in the assault (not rape) that followed. So, I think it was a "lead up", but I don't really understand the significance of the question.
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:38 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Is that possible that this was the lead up before the rape? Or is that disputed?
I thought of one possible interpretation, and it goes along with something that has come up a couple of times in relation to this case. Are you asking if perhaps he got her drunk deliberately so that he could take her away and rape her?

Well, perhaps, but allow me a bit of a digression before giving my opinion.

The same day I read about this case, I heard of something called "Tinder". No doubt many of you will have heard of this. I'm just a bit behind the times. Reading about Tinder, I also read about the state of "hook up culture" on American campuses. Apparently, things have changed quite a bit since my youth. Oh, of course, there were plenty of hook ups in the world even back when Ronald Reagan was President, but it seems that the youth of today have, in large numbers, both of men and of women, dropped the pretense of looking for anything else in the short term.

Lots of folks wander about deliberately looking for opportunities to have casual sex with someone they met that night. It's just fairly normal, or at the very least not bizarre or unusual. What we called "one night stands" have become more and more part of the casual college scene, and everyone knows it....apparently. At least, reputable magazines seemed to think college students thought that way.

If we assume that those stories are not simple sexual fantasies, but at worst exaggerations of reality, Brock Turner had no need to fear going home alone that night, alcohol or no alcohol. An athlete, an Olympic hopeful, an undergrad who intends to pursue a career as a surgeon, at a frat party. Some of the other guys at the party might have needed some chemical help to lower some inhibitions, and possibly standards. Brock, though, would not have been the sort that needed any help.

So, I don't think he deliberately got her drunk in order to facilitate either sex or rape. I think he figured he was entitled to it and had no need for assistance, and I think he was probably right. Possibly, this particular woman would not have said yes had she been sober, but some other one would have. The alcohol was simply a recreational drug which both of them were using in large quantities.
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Old 9th June 2016, 05:19 PM   #431
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I'm just trying to figure out what might have been going through his mind the night in question.

Last edited by Caper; 9th June 2016 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 9th June 2016, 05:26 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I thought of one possible interpretation, and it goes along with something that has come up a couple of times in relation to this case. Are you asking if perhaps he got her drunk deliberately so that he could take her away and rape her?

Well, perhaps, but allow me a bit of a digression before giving my opinion.

The same day I read about this case, I heard of something called "Tinder". No doubt many of you will have heard of this. I'm just a bit behind the times. Reading about Tinder, I also read about the state of "hook up culture" on American campuses. Apparently, things have changed quite a bit since my youth. Oh, of course, there were plenty of hook ups in the world even back when Ronald Reagan was President, but it seems that the youth of today have, in large numbers, both of men and of women, dropped the pretense of looking for anything else in the short term.

Lots of folks wander about deliberately looking for opportunities to have casual sex with someone they met that night. It's just fairly normal, or at the very least not bizarre or unusual. What we called "one night stands" have become more and more part of the casual college scene, and everyone knows it....apparently. At least, reputable magazines seemed to think college students thought that way.

If we assume that those stories are not simple sexual fantasies, but at worst exaggerations of reality, Brock Turner had no need to fear going home alone that night, alcohol or no alcohol. An athlete, an Olympic hopeful, an undergrad who intends to pursue a career as a surgeon, at a frat party. Some of the other guys at the party might have needed some chemical help to lower some inhibitions, and possibly standards. Brock, though, would not have been the sort that needed any help.

So, I don't think he deliberately got her drunk in order to facilitate either sex or rape. I think he figured he was entitled to it and had no need for assistance, and I think he was probably right. Possibly, this particular woman would not have said yes had she been sober, but some other one would have. The alcohol was simply a recreational drug which both of them were using in large quantities.
With due respect, there's rather a lot of unnecessary speculation in the above post. Why not stick to what we know and admit that many things we do not know?
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Old 9th June 2016, 05:34 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
With due respect, there's rather a lot of unnecessary speculation in the above post. Why not stick to what we know and admit that many things we do not know?
If we all did that, this thread would be shortened by at least half.

ETA: Besides, which parts are all that speculative?

Let's see about some of the assertions.

1. There were a significant number of men and women at that party who were attending specifically with the goal of having a sexual encounter.

That seems fairly likely to me.

2. Brock Turner, champion swimmer and Olympic hopeful, would likely be able to bed one of the women would were attending with that goal in mind, even without the need for applying alcohol.

That seems pretty likely to me.

3. That Brock Turner did not specifically seek to lower that particular woman's inhibitions through the use of alcohol.

That, I must admit, is speculative. Any assertion about his attitude toward that particular woman is at least somewhat speculative. If we stick to what we know, we know that he was found on top of her, with her partially disrobed and unconscious. That's really all we know. The couldhave gotten there any number of ways, but that requires speculation.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 9th June 2016 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 9th June 2016, 06:19 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If we all did that, this thread would be shortened by at least half.
Yes.
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Old 9th June 2016, 07:14 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Haha... both? Or just the John Mongrel guy?
Definitely JM.........after he had a go with our "hero" and mayhaps his dad.
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Old 9th June 2016, 08:02 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Definitely JM.........after he had a go with our "hero" and mayhaps his dad.

But what if JM was only sent to prison for something like insider trading and only became a vicious rapey gang leader in prison... Only raping those who themselves commited horrible crimes? Would you like him then?
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Old 9th June 2016, 08:59 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A person can drink enough to become very, very drunk before they even realise they're particularly drunk at all. There's a delay between imbibing and effect.

Seems to me that is person and situation dependent.
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Old 9th June 2016, 09:39 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize how utterly excessive and ultimately counterproductive long prison sentences are.
Not true in every case, but possibly true in this one.

There are people who need to be locked up permanently in prison for the protection of the general public, simply because they are too dangerous to be allowed on the loose


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Old 10th June 2016, 12:26 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Seems to me that is person and situation dependent.
Not really. It doesn't matter who you are or what you're doing, there's a lag between drinking and the drink taking effect.
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Old 10th June 2016, 07:34 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Not really. It doesn't matter who you are or what you're doing, there's a lag between drinking and the drink taking effect.
I'm not sure why this is relevant, since the victim here had 4 drinks of whiskey before even going to the party. It would not have been a mystery to her that she was already drunk when she decided to drink yet more at the party.
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