ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th June 2016, 06:29 PM   #481
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,530
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Just as occurred in this case - she is incapacitated. More generally, a lack of resistance due to incapacity may be simply accepted without question or assumed to be due to consent.
Utter rubbish!

The LAW says that if a victim is unconscious or too drunk to consent, that is an implicit NO.

Control is about denial of CHOICE. When a conscious person sticks his fingers inside an unconscious person who has NOT given consent, where is the unconscious person's choice?
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Just did.

No, you didn't. You just made up your own unique interpretation out of whole cloth.

Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
How is "emotional" distinct from "psychological"? You're just talking about acquiescence due to coercive threat.
A threat to life of self is more emotional that psychological, while a threat to do something to someone or something else more psychological than emotional. Its a minor distinction but its important, and in any case, you are just nitpicking.

The important issue is that ALL rape involves control and/or violence, you simply cannot give me a single example where it isn't, because such an example does not exist.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2016, 07:10 PM   #482
Caper
Philosopher
 
Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,729
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Again, depends on the individual, it seems to me.
That's right. I said you're asking for trouble, not guaranteeing trouble.
Caper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 03:35 AM   #483
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
So a person cannot tell when they are getting inebriated?
So you really have no experiance with people getting drunker than they intended by accident?

Quote:
No, that is your projection. Again.
Sure but it is based on the logic being presented by you.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 03:46 AM   #484
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
These are letters in support of their son. That is what they are supposed to do. Yes even on a skeptics board people are convinced letters for the sole purpose of lessening the sentence of the guilty party are supposed to be letters for the victim. They are not. And they shouldn't be, especially at the time they were written, the case was probably headed (and may still be) for appeal.
And any admission of his guilt and admitting to any feeling for the victim would undermine the sense that they need to project that he did nothing wrong and as such could never regret what he did. That kind of emotion isn't going to help reduce a sentence ever after all. Empathy is the enemy.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 04:37 AM   #485
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Utter rubbish!

The LAW says that if a victim is unconscious or too drunk to consent, that is an implicit NO.
You have already forgot the question you asked.

Since it's clear you're not listening, I guess you will just continue to convince young men that they don't have to be concerned about their behavior and it's impossible for them to rape. I hope that works out for you.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 05:26 AM   #486
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,660
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Well, bear in mind, in sentencing, any time served while awaiting trial is factored in (at a two-to-one ratio, I think it is) and credited against any prison time handed out in the sentence. Then there's eligibility for parole, which usually starts well before the full length of the sentence, and so on.

In Canada, one sentence for murder is life in prison—except that it really isn't necessarily life in prison; the convicted person can apply for parole after ten years or twenty-five years, depending on the specific 'life in prison' sentence assigned. So theoretically someone sentenced to 'life in prison' could be out in ten years. (Probably doesn't happen that often though.)
My brother is actually serving one of these sentences - and while in University I also studied criminal law. A life sentence in Canada is just what it says on the tin - life. You can be paroled from the penitentiary after a set number of years (between 10-25 years for second degree homicide, or minimum 25 years for first degree homicide for example), but you are still under a life sentence and will be monitored by Corrections Canada until the day you die based on parole conditions.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 05:28 AM   #487
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,530
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
You have already forgot the question you asked.

Since it's clear you're not listening, I guess you will just continue to convince young men that they don't have to be concerned about their behavior and it's impossible for them to rape. I hope that works out for you.

Who's not listening now?
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 05:31 AM   #488
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Who's not listening now?
Have you paid attention yet to the fact that you asked me to give you an example of a situation that involved lack of consent but not physical force by the rapist - and when I said incapacity, you ranted about how that still involves lack of consent?

"There's no such thing as a bird with green feathers!"
"How about a parrot?"
"Utter rubbish - a parrot is still a BIRD!"
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 10:28 AM   #489
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you really have no experiance with people getting drunker than they intended by accident?

And how common is this? Is it truly 'accident' or is it the result of lowered inhibitions due to the alcohol already consumed?
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2016, 10:30 AM   #490
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
My brother is actually serving one of these sentences - and while in University I also studied criminal law. A life sentence in Canada is just what it says on the tin - life. You can be paroled from the penitentiary after a set number of years (between 10-25 years for second degree homicide, or minimum 25 years for first degree homicide for example), but you are still under a life sentence and will be monitored by Corrections Canada until the day you die based on parole conditions.

I expect most people interpret "life in prison" as meaning that person will never be released, and will spend the rest of their life in prison. If the person is released prior to dying in prison, then that isn't really 'life in prison', is it? It should really be called '10 years to life' or '25 years to life', which is a more accurate rendition of how much time the convicted could actually spend in prison.
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

Last edited by Corsair 115; 13th June 2016 at 10:31 AM.
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2016, 02:56 AM   #491
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,106
In addition to the petition to remove Persky, potential jurors are refusing to serve on cases under him, a District Attorney (Jeff Rosen) has publicly stated he has lost confidence in the judge and he's abruptly been removed from a new sexual assault case.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 10:01 AM   #492
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
I just re-thought this case a bit. I mean, yeah...the woman got raped and what the guy did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....and she was asking for it.

All young women - especially a 22-year-old-woman - know it's dangerous to get black-out drunk among a group of young Horn-Toads they don't even know. I mean, this is just asking for rape...and this woman either knew it, or was too delusional to know it. Anyways...she got raped and maybe this will help her grow the hell up and quit getting drunk in public - and maybe it will be a lesson for a lot of other young, stupid girls who get drunk in public.

Listen...many guys have no respect for girls who willingly get drunk in public and they consider them dirty, filthy sluts. I know I do and there is no way I would ever run to the protection of such a drunken woman. Seriously, I got better things to do with my life than to fight off the rapists that she invited by her behavior. Hey...if I go to combat and get my arse beat on for protecting a woman, it's going to be for a woman that really "wasn't asking for it".
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 10:10 AM   #493
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 10,493
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I just re-thought this case a bit. I mean, yeah...the woman got raped and what the guy did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....and she was asking for it.

All young women - especially a 22-year-old-woman - know it's dangerous to get black-out drunk among a group of young Horn-Toads they don't even know. I mean, this is just asking for rape...and this woman either knew it, or was too delusional to know it. Anyways...she got raped and maybe this will help her grow the hell up and quit getting drunk in public - and maybe it will be a lesson for a lot of other young, stupid girls who get drunk in public.

Listen...many guys have no respect for girls who willingly get drunk in public and they consider them dirty, filthy sluts. I know I do and there is no way I would ever run to the protection of such a drunken woman. Seriously, I got better things to do with my life than to fight off the rapists that she invited by her behavior. Hey...if I go to combat and get my arse beat on for protecting a woman, it's going to be for a woman that really "wasn't asking for it".
Another post which make me embarrassed to be a man.
__________________
For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 10:11 AM   #494
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Another post which make me embarrassed to be a man.
Gawd...what did they do to you?
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 10:23 AM   #495
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Quote:
However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....and she was asking for it.
Geez, it's like the last 40 years never happened for some of you. No woman is ever "asking for it." Life shouldn't be a combat zone. A young woman should have every right to go to a party, get way too drunk, pass out on the floor and not get bothered. Like a guy. Or maybe get dicks sharpies on her face, like a guy, if it's that kind of party.

Rape is theft. Rape is assault. Rape is battery. Rape is taking something not freely offered. Rape is the rapist thinking "want" equals "having." Rape is a predator taking down prey.

In the real world, people should look both ways when crossing the street, be alert for drunk drivers on Friday and Saturday night, check the backseat of their parked car before getting into it, shake your boots out to check for scorpions before putting them on and a myriad other little risk assessment protocols. It's your duty as a human being to operate your body and universe in a manner that preserves your life and health - but it's also the duty of every single human being in civilization to behave in a civilized manner and not attack fellow humans.


She, and every woman, should have every right to be mildly idiotic when surrounded by other people. The last 40 (50?) years have been a long struggle for women to have the expectation to be human in public without being treated as public property or prey.

Shame on you. Your ideas are ugly and archaic.

Last edited by Jrrarglblarg; 20th June 2016 at 10:29 AM.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 10:32 AM   #496
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Geez, it's like the last 40 years never happened for some of you. No woman is ever "asking for it." Life shouldn't be a combat zone. A young woman should have every right to go to a party, get way too drunk, pass out on the floor and not get bothered. Like a guy. Or maybe get dicks sharpies on her face, like a guy, if it's that kind of party.

Rape is theft. Rape is assault. Rape is battery. Rape is taking something not freely offered. Rape is the rapist thinking "want" equals "having." Rape is a predator taking down prey.

In the real world, people should look both ways when crossing the street, be alert for drunk drivers on Friday and Saturday night, check the backseat of their parked car before getting into it and a myriad other little risk assessment protocols. It's your duty as a human being to operate in a manner that preserves your life and health - but it's also the duty of every single human being in civilization to behave in a civilized manner and not attack fellow humans.


She, and every woman, should have every right to be mildly idiotic when surrounded by other people. The last 40 (50?) years have been a long struggle for women to have the expectation to be human in public without being treated as public property or prey.

Well, I agree life shouldn't be a Combat Zone....but that's not the reality is it? In fact, there are some places - lots of places - where it is very dangerous for drunk women - especially if they are young and good looking.

So women can either except reality, or not. I just wish they wouldn't whine so much and act like it's a surprise when some Drunk, Young Woman gets raped by the local Football Team, or Motorcycle Gang...or whatever. I mean, everybody know it's going to happen.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 10:40 AM   #497
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post

She, and every woman, should have every right to be mildly idiotic when surrounded by other people. The last 40 (50?) years have been a long struggle for women to have the expectation to be human in public without being treated as public property or prey.

Shame on you. Your ideas are ugly and archaic.
Of course women should have those rights, but they don't. Deal.

I mean, I want the right to walk drunk through a poor and violent neighborhood at night with my pockets stuffed with 100 Dollar Bills while blowing my nose in 420 Dollar Bills - and yet suffer no Robbery or Beating. In fact, I think I deserve that Right. But...So what? It's not going to happen and should I walk through that neighborhood as just described then I am indeed "asking for it".

It's about recognizing Reality.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:10 AM   #498
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Imagine you are a high-school aged guy at the party in Stuebenville (you've been transported back in time)...just before that girl drives off with the Football Team to get raped. You know what's going to happen and you know you can stop it. So, you walk to the car with a baseball bat in hand and tell the Football Team to cool it and tell the girl to leave the car and go home.

Them she yells at you and dials 9/11 on her phone and claims you are attacking her and her friends. One of the Football players charges you so you smack him with the bat and he goes down in a pool of blood.

The Police arrive and they arrest you for Felony Assault and the girl tells the Police how you were trying to hurt them. You go to Prison. Football Players are Heros.

Think about it.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:16 AM   #499
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,487
Parody?

There's a certain common sense view that says you are right about some thing, but there are others that make me think it is a parody. This line, specifically:

Quote:
Listen...many guys have no respect for girls who willingly get drunk in public and they consider them dirty, filthy sluts. I know I do and there is no way I would ever run to the protection of such a drunken woman.

I think there are very, very, few people who actually think this way.

There is a reality to deal with that her actions placed her in danger, but to me, and I think to almost everyone else, that is entirely different from "she was asking for it."
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:21 AM   #500
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Parody?

There's a certain common sense view that says you are right about some thing, but there are others that make me think it is a parody. This line, specifically:




I think there are very, very, few people who actually think this way.

There is a reality to deal with that her actions placed her in danger, but to me, and I think to almost everyone else, that is entirely different from "she was asking for it."

Well...there seems to be a lot of people in Stuebenville, Ohio that feel that way.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:37 AM   #501
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I just re-thought this case a bit. I mean, yeah...the woman got raped and what the guy did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. However, the young lady who got raped sounds like quite the idiot too....and she was asking for it.

All young women - especially a 22-year-old-woman - know it's dangerous to get black-out drunk among a group of young Horn-Toads they don't even know. I mean, this is just asking for rape...and this woman either knew it, or was too delusional to know it. Anyways...she got raped and maybe this will help her grow the hell up and quit getting drunk in public - and maybe it will be a lesson for a lot of other young, stupid girls who get drunk in public.

Listen...many guys have no respect for girls who willingly get drunk in public and they consider them dirty, filthy sluts. I know I do and there is no way I would ever run to the protection of such a drunken woman. Seriously, I got better things to do with my life than to fight off the rapists that she invited by her behavior. Hey...if I go to combat and get my arse beat on for protecting a woman, it's going to be for a woman that really "wasn't asking for it".
And we are back to women really should know better than to drink at frat parties.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:39 AM   #502
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Of course women should have those rights, but they don't. Deal.

I mean, I want the right to walk drunk through a poor and violent neighborhood at night with my pockets stuffed with 100 Dollar Bills while blowing my nose in 420 Dollar Bills - and yet suffer no Robbery or Beating. In fact, I think I deserve that Right. But...So what? It's not going to happen and should I walk through that neighborhood as just described then I am indeed "asking for it".

It's about recognizing Reality.
And frat parties are of course rape central. Of course women should also know better than to get drunk around friends as those are more likely to rape them than random guys at a party. Only a foolish woman ever trusts her male friends.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:43 AM   #503
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Another post which make me embarrassed to be a man.
Why? Do you think there's any connection between being a man and having certain attitudes towards women? Plenty of women would say very much the same things that he said; should that make other women embarrassed to be a woman?
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:47 AM   #504
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Why? Do you think there's any connection between being a man and having certain attitudes towards women? Plenty of women would say very much the same things that he said; should that make other women embarrassed to be a woman?
Well they caused the band that the girl who said that in her letter to the court in his favor to lose all its bookings.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:50 AM   #505
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,487
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Well...there seems to be a lot of people in Stuebenville, Ohio that feel that way.
That's what I thought. Parody.

But parody is recognizable because it isn't quite accurate. It takes someone else's statements, or attitude, and twists it a bit.

I didn't follow the Steubenville case closely, but I've followed other, similar, cases, and in those cases very, very few people actually feel that way, and fewer still would admit that they felt that way.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 11:58 AM   #506
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,308
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And frat parties are of course rape central.
If you say so.

Quote:
Of course women should also know better than to get drunk around friends as those are more likely to rape them than random guys at a party. Only a foolish woman ever trusts her male friends.
Cows kill more people than sharks. But which is more dangerous to be next to? A shark. But if sharks are more dangerous to be next to, why do cows kill more people?

Statistics have contexts. You are ignoring yours.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:08 PM   #507
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And we are back to women really should know better than to drink at frat parties.

No, it's that anyone should know better than to get drunk to the point of passing out. It's a bad idea. Doing such allows one to, on the low end of the spectrum, be the subject of practical jokes, to the high end of perhaps choking on one's own vomit and dying.
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:10 PM   #508
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's what I thought. Parody.

But parody is recognizable because it isn't quite accurate. It takes someone else's statements, or attitude, and twists it a bit.

I didn't follow the Steubenville case closely, but I've followed other, similar, cases, and in those cases very, very few people actually feel that way, and fewer still would admit that they felt that way.

I don't think anybody is going to come right out and say it in public - that wouldn't be politically correct. Nope, if you ask them in a public forum, they will Lie about the way they feel. I mean, most people want to be politically correct most of the time, so they lie.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:11 PM   #509
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well they caused the band that the girl who said that in her letter to the court in his favor to lose all its bookings.
And yet, I don't hear any women saying "this makes me embarrassed to be a woman."

These are not masculine or feminine attitudes; they don't identify you as a man or a woman. People need not paint with so broad a brush.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:12 PM   #510
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you say so.



Cows kill more people than sharks. But which is more dangerous to be next to? A shark. But if sharks are more dangerous to be next to, why do cows kill more people?

Statistics have contexts. You are ignoring yours.
So if she was raped by a friend she went to this party with you wouldn't be criticizing her behavior?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:14 PM   #511
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
No, it's that anyone should know better than to get drunk to the point of passing out. It's a bad idea. Doing such allows one to, on the low end of the spectrum, be the subject of practical jokes, to the high end of perhaps choking on one's own vomit and dying.
And of course that never happened to you clearly.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:24 PM   #512
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,308
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So if she was raped by a friend she went to this party with you wouldn't be criticizing her behavior?
Since she wasn't, we'll never actually know, will we?

But perhaps more importantly, how is this in any way a defense your own errors of fact?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:28 PM   #513
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,308
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course that never happened to you clearly.
Why does it matter whether it's happened to him?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:35 PM   #514
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since she wasn't, we'll never actually know, will we?
How much are women who get drunk and raped by their friends at fault and need to be criticised for their clearly poor judgement in letting themselves be raped?
Quote:
But perhaps more importantly, how is this in any way a defense your own errors of fact?
What errors of fact? I know good girls don't go to parties with boys and alcohol so that this would never happen to them. As she was irresponsible for doing that what can you expect? And anyway he had to do it he was drunk!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:36 PM   #515
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,869
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why does it matter whether it's happened to him?
I am trying to determine how responsible he is. Is he the kind of responsible drinker he thinks people should be or not.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 12:49 PM   #516
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course that never happened to you clearly.

Yes, I don't engage in a behaviour that is clearly a bad idea. I exercise sensible personal judgement. I take it then you engage in reckless, foolish behaviour?
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 01:02 PM   #517
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,308
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How much are women who get drunk and raped by their friends at fault and need to be criticised for their clearly poor judgement in letting themselves be raped?
They are not "at fault" at all. Nor have I ever said they, or the victim in this case, were. Nor is it about criticizing them, it's about warning people about risks so they can avoid them.

Quote:
What errors of fact?
Your inability to understand risk, and how one determines it. You claim friends are a bigger risk than strangers. This is not true.

Quote:
I know good girls don't go to parties with boys and alcohol so that this would never happen to them.
I don't know or care what you consider a "good girl". But you are correct that if you don't drink alcohol, you won't pass out drunk.

Quote:
As she was irresponsible for doing that what can you expect?
Go on, what's your next straw man?

Quote:
And anyway he had to do it he was drunk!
Oh. That was your next straw man.

I give it a C-. It's appropriately easy to knock down, as a good straw man should be, but it lacks credibility as it's so obviously antithetical to any position I would ever actually take.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 01:04 PM   #518
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,451
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Geez, it's like the last 40 years never happened for some of you. No woman is ever "asking for it." Life shouldn't be a combat zone. A young woman should have every right to go to a party, get way too drunk, pass out on the floor and not get bothered. Like a guy. Or maybe get dicks sharpies on her face, like a guy, if it's that kind of party.

Rape is theft. Rape is assault. Rape is battery. Rape is taking something not freely offered. Rape is the rapist thinking "want" equals "having." Rape is a predator taking down prey.

In the real world, people should look both ways when crossing the street, be alert for drunk drivers on Friday and Saturday night, check the backseat of their parked car before getting into it, shake your boots out to check for scorpions before putting them on and a myriad other little risk assessment protocols. It's your duty as a human being to operate your body and universe in a manner that preserves your life and health - but it's also the duty of every single human being in civilization to behave in a civilized manner and not attack fellow humans.


She, and every woman, should have every right to be mildly idiotic when surrounded by other people. The last 40 (50?) years have been a long struggle for women to have the expectation to be human in public without being treated as public property or prey.

Shame on you. Your ideas are ugly and archaic.
Nominated
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 01:05 PM   #519
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,308
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Yes, I don't engage in a behaviour that is clearly a bad idea. I exercise sensible personal judgement. I take it then you engage in reckless, foolish behaviour?
You're taking the wrong approach here. The far more critical point is that it doesn't matter whether you've done that. Maybe you haven't because you're sensible enough not to. Or maybe you HAVE done it, and you're intimately familiar with the negative consequences, and want to keep others from making the same mistake you made. Either way, his question is irrelevant, because neither a yes nor a no can discredit your position.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2016, 01:07 PM   #520
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
She, and every woman, should have every right to be mildly idiotic when surrounded by other people.

Is getting drunk to the point of becoming unconscious a "mildly idiotic" thing? Or is it strongly idiotic?
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:21 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.