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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:46 PM   #561
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Yes, it was a pity that that black man got killed, but he should know the risk of talking to a white woman in a white neighbourhood. We should educate young blacks to avoid going to white neighbourhoods, and if they have to, to avoid risky behaviour like talking to women, or being uppity when addressing men.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:04 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Yes, it was a pity that that black man got killed, but he should know the risk of talking to a white woman in a white neighbourhood. We should educate young blacks to avoid going to white neighbourhoods, and if they have to, to avoid risky behaviour like talking to women, or being uppity when addressing men.
Do you also have a problem with State Department travel advisories?
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:17 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Yes, it was a pity that that black man got killed, but he should know the risk of talking to a white woman in a white neighbourhood. We should educate young blacks to avoid going to white neighbourhoods, and if they have to, to avoid risky behaviour like talking to women, or being uppity when addressing men.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:29 PM   #564
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This case illustrated perfectly the problem with rape cases. It is obvious from both the parents' letters that nobody ever seriously discussed the importance of consent to this guy. There is a reason why people say "teach your sons not to rape", and it's families like these.
Nobody in their right minds would think that the solution for civil rights would be to educate the victims. In the same way, putting the focus of once again telling women that they should fear men, and should not act as they want to for fear of violence is not going to work.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:38 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
This case illustrated perfectly the problem with rape cases. It is obvious from both the parents' letters that nobody ever seriously discussed the importance of consent to this guy. There is a reason why people say "teach your sons not to rape", and it's families like these.
Nobody in their right minds would think that the solution for civil rights would be to educate the victims. In the same way, putting the focus of once again telling women that they should fear men, and should not act as they want to for fear of violence is not going to work.
You are so full of it! That guy knew perfectly well he was raping that girl and that's why he ran like hell when those Swedes saw him!

He RAPED because he thought he could get away with it! And...no amount of therapeutic education is going to cure that mentality!

I bet the little putz had been exposed to endless hours of anti-rape lectures while at school, but when it came down to it on that night, there was just the means (the Boner), the motive (Fun!) and the opportunity (Drunk Chick). Seriously...ya' just can't reason with such Psychos.

Last edited by Jules Galen; 23rd June 2016 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 02:09 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
This case illustrated perfectly the problem with rape cases. It is obvious from both the parents' letters that nobody ever seriously discussed the importance of consent to this guy. There is a reason why people say "teach your sons not to rape", and it's families like these.
Nobody in their right minds would think that the solution for civil rights would be to educate the victims. In the same way, putting the focus of once again telling women that they should fear men, and should not act as they want to for fear of violence is not going to work.
So that's a "no" to State Department travel advisories, then.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 02:27 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So that's a "no" to State Department travel advisories, then.
If you want my opinion on a different subject, start a new thread.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 03:03 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
He RAPED because he thought he could get away with it! And...no amount of therapeutic education is going to cure that mentality!.
Because the education you speak of isn't necessarily ineffective... its just too late. He should have been taught acceptable behaviour from the moment he was born (well, almost)

Its pretty obvious (judging by the moronic comments of his parents) that he was brought up in an environment of entitlement. He has probably never borne any real consequences for his behaviour.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 03:22 PM   #569
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affluenza strikes again!
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Old 23rd June 2016, 03:53 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because the education you speak of isn't necessarily ineffective... its just too late. He should have been taught acceptable behaviour from the moment he was born (well, almost)

Its pretty obvious (judging by the moronic comments of his parents) that he was brought up in an environment of entitlement. He has probably never borne any real consequences for his behaviour.
You are starting to sound really silly.

Anyways...it appears that there's a lot of Feminists out there who are aghast....just aghast I tells ya'!...at the idea of taking care of themselves. Instead, they want other people to always do it for them. I mean...why should they have to learn about rape avoidance and defense when they can just self-righteously scream at society and persecute the innocent? Doesn't sound like they are really too concerned about rape to me or they would be doing all they could to avoid it.

Seriously, when you are at the beach and see a huge man-eating shark in the water, is your first inclination to turn about and shout at the lifeguard about how he isn't doing his job while you scream at the shark to "Not Bite...it's my right to swim"? Or...do you get the hell out of the water as fast as you can and wait until the lifeguard and Beach Police deal with the shark? (with a shotgun, hopefully)

Well...this is post-modern Feminism - they want to swim in Shark-infested waters without the fear of being bit. Hah...good luck!
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Old 23rd June 2016, 04:16 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
If you want my opinion on a different subject, start a new thread.
I want your opinion on the subject of warning people to avoid dangerous situations generally. You brought up a specific example. I'm wondering if you would apply your conclusions to other examples of the same subject.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 05:16 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
You are so full of it! That guy knew perfectly well he was raping that girl and that's why he ran like hell when those Swedes saw him!

He RAPED because he thought he could get away with it! And...no amount of therapeutic education is going to cure that mentality!

I bet the little putz had been exposed to endless hours of anti-rape lectures while at school, but when it came down to it on that night, there was just the means (the Boner), the motive (Fun!) and the opportunity (Drunk Chick). Seriously...ya' just can't reason with such Psychos.
[NITPICK] He didn't rape anyone. The rape charge was dropped. My guess is that he was sufficiently drunk that he didn't have "the means", but that's speculation.[/NITPICK]
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:50 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I want your opinion on the subject of warning people to avoid dangerous situations generally. You brought up a specific example. I'm wondering if you would apply your conclusions to other examples of the same subject.
No, you are trying to make an association between one good thing -warning travellers of potential dangers they have no means to know about- with a pernicious one -having a part of your population restrict their own legal movements and livestyle due to an implied threat of violence by another part of the population.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 11:08 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Well...this is post-modern Feminism - they want to swim in Shark-infested waters without the fear of being bit. Hah...good luck!
Your opinion is depressing. I assumed you are a troll, but in case you're not... young men are perfectly capable of not raping someone, if they are educated into thinking of women as fellow human beings, and not some different species to be conquered as trophies.
What led this man to sexually assault this girl was probably not any uncontrollable sexual urges, but the desire to get one more notch in is belt. She was a prize to be taken, not a person to be respected.
You see this over and over again. Men that are taught to respect and cherish the "good girls" but use and despise the "bad girls". And if a girl wants to have fun in a party with guys, then she must be a "bad girl" and is there to be used.
This is the mentality that needs to be changed. This is where the educational efforts need to be applied.
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Old 27th June 2016, 07:53 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
You are starting to sound really silly.

Anyways...it appears that there's a lot of Feminists out there who are aghast....just aghast I tells ya'!...at the idea of taking care of themselves. Instead, they want other people to always do it for them. I mean...why should they have to learn about rape avoidance and defense when they can just self-righteously scream at society and persecute the innocent? Doesn't sound like they are really too concerned about rape to me or they would be doing all they could to avoid it.

~snipped ridiculous comparison of shark attacks to rape~

Well...this is post-modern Feminism - they want to swim in Shark-infested waters without the fear of being bit. Hah...good luck!
Women are taught from the time we are children to be careful; to not do such-and-such a thing because you might invite assault/rape, to include walking alone at night, going out with a group of friends and getting drunk, dressing provocatively, etc. The point is, we should not HAVE to teach our daughters these things. The blame should not be placed on women doing these things and as a result getting raped; the blame should be placed squarely where it belongs, on the rapist.

I am a white woman of mature age, and I like to think I'm reasonably attractive; I'm certainly not ugly. I cannot begin to enumerate the number of times I have been in a situation where I felt that my potential safety was threatened just by walking in a darkened parking lot at night to my car, or walking down a street in a slightly seedy neighborhood to run an errand that was necessary for some reason and that I couldn't avoid as a result. I've been wolf-whistled, cat-called, and done my level best to avoid garnering further attention by walking faster and keeping my head down or looking away. The possibility that I could have been raped or assaulted during those encounters is scary high. I should not have to do this. Yes, women should be careful, and should be taught to be so, but men need to be taught from a young age, just the same as women are taught from a young age, that such activities are unwelcome to women at best, terrifying to women at worst.

There's a pervasive attitude remaining from a time before women had the same rights as men did that "boys will be boys" when they tease girls in school, or push them into the mud, or yank their hair, and they are not corrected from doing so because of the aforementioned attitude. They subconsciously are taught that it's okay to do these things, and the relatively innocent activities of hair-pulling or pushing at younger ages transform, when older, into cat-calling and inappropriate touching, and from there can easily snowball into an attitude that women are asking for it when they wear low-cut blouses or shorter skirts, or get drunk in a bar, or do any number of things that are hardly given a second thought when it's a male doing the equivalent activity. This is what feminists want to stop. They want young boys to be taught from a point when they are old enough to understand that girls are different that just because they are different it is not okay to pull hair, push them, or tease them, and that they have the right to do the same things that men do without thought to the consequence.

Feminists are not claiming that girls should be allowed to do anything they want; far from it. They are claiming that simply because a girl makes a mistake that, were she a man no one would think twice about it, doesn't mean that action should be blamed for the result. Instead, the blame needs to be placed where it belongs; in this case, on the person who raped her simply because she wanted to go out and have a little fun for once. Feminists want people to stop asking "what was she wearing? Was she dressed like a slut? Did she drink too much?" and instead start asking, "Why did he do this? What made him think his actions were remotely okay?" That's all.
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Old 27th June 2016, 08:46 AM   #576
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No, boys and men are not taught that assaulting women is okay. Quite the contrary - behavior that is considered perfectly appropriate between young boys will garner harsh punishment if a girl is involved.
Everyone gets verbally assaulted on the street. I get it daily - told to smile, comments made about my appearance. This isn't men not respecting women. It is some people being jerks - and in a city if if those jerks are 1% you will see them daily.
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Old 27th June 2016, 09:41 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
[NITPICK] He didn't rape anyone. The rape charge was dropped. My guess is that he was sufficiently drunk that he didn't have "the means", but that's speculation.[/NITPICK]
Not nessacarily, it is just that the law in question seems to require he penetrate her with his penis, he used his hands to drive pine needles into her while dry humping her leg.

Of course there is often not a law for rape on the books, rather it is class N sexual assault and so on. Not explicitly called rape.
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Old 27th June 2016, 09:42 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you also have a problem with State Department travel advisories?
Exactly the thing she did wrong was going to a frat party, those should have blanket travel advisories to women. Perfect analogy.
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:11 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
... young men are perfectly capable of not raping someone...

Except for those who want mandatory consent classes in college under the guise of "teach men not to rape".


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
...if they are educated into thinking of women as fellow human beings, and not some different species to be conquered as trophies.

Oh. The above kind of reads like you want mandatory consent classes too. Also, I have to ask, educated by who to think women are "not some different species to be conquered as trophies"? Follow-up question would be: how many men do you think actually think that way and vigorously pursue that line of thought? For that matter, how many women think that way about men?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Men that are taught to respect and cherish the "good girls" but use and despise the "bad girls".

Taught by who?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
And if a girl wants to have fun in a party with guys, then she must be a "bad girl" and is there to be used.
This is the mentality that needs to be changed.

Might I ask where the evidence is that points to how prevalent this mentality is among men?
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:17 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
This case illustrated perfectly the problem with rape cases. It is obvious from both the parents' letters that nobody ever seriously discussed the importance of consent to this guy. There is a reason why people say "teach your sons not to rape", and it's families like these.

Do you want such teaching to be mandatory? So even all those men who would never commit such a crime have to go through such teaching as well? Is presuming the potential guilt of an entire demographic really the way you want education to function?

Also, when can I expect to see classes such as "teach men not to murder"? And "teach women not to lie about rape"? Because, as much as some don't want to admit it, sometimes women lie about being assaulted, for a variety of reasons. If we are going to subject all men to mandatory teaching about consent because of the actions of a few, then all women should likewise be subjected to mandatory teaching due to the actions of a few. While we're at it, when can I expect the classes for "teach people not to steal" and "teach people not to commit arson", et cetera and so forth.

Why is only one select type of crime requiring this 'education'?
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:49 AM   #581
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For all those girls who like to dress like sluts and get drunk around strange men, maybe they should be forced to go to "Rape Readiness" classes so they won't be so surprised and traumatized when it eventually happens (and we also won't have to listen to as much of their bitching and moaning!).
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Old 27th June 2016, 11:14 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
For all those girls who like to dress like sluts and get drunk around strange men, maybe they should be forced to go to "Rape Readiness" classes so they won't be so surprised and traumatized when it eventually happens (and we also won't have to listen to as much of their bitching and moaning!).
Eh, a little over-the-top for trolling on this subject. 6 out of 10.
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Old 27th June 2016, 12:24 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Except for those who want mandatory consent classes in college under the guise of "teach men not to rape".
Your comment above is either dishonest or profoundly ignorant. Anyone with a bit of sense would want that students underwent training regarding, among other issues, consent.
Colleges are international institutions that receive students from a variety of places. Such trainings assure that every student is aware that practices that they might have grown up thinking are perfectly ok are actually illegal in their own home. In the particular of consent, both male and female students can benefit from such training.
And yes, such initiatives work, as the "don't be that guy" campaign demonstrated.

Quote:
Oh. The above kind of reads like you want mandatory consent classes too.
No, I want consent to be addressed in a more encompassing training of norms and legal aspects of the host country.

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Also, I have to ask, educated by who to think women are "not some different species to be conquered as trophies"?
In this case I would think the father is a prime suspect. But society in general propagates that idea. You can refer to the popular media for examples.

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Follow-up question would be: how many men do you think actually think that way and vigorously pursue that line of thought?
In a non-illegal way, I would say most men have thought like that at some point of their life. A minority would take it pass the objectification threshold into victimization.

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For that matter, how many women think that way about men?
Probably a fair amount. And also a very fair amount will have very tenuous grasp on the rules of consent. However, sexual dimorphism makes the power balance tend to the more difficult sexual victimization of males by females.

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Taught by who?
Ideally by society. But that would crash a big number of industries, so I don't expect it to happen soon. The family is also a choice educator, but that assumes that the elders are actually educated themselves.

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Might I ask where the evidence is that points to how prevalent this mentality is among men?
Please refer to the popular culture for examples. If you want them I can provide them, but please make sure that you actually want to learn something.
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Old 27th June 2016, 12:55 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Do you want such teaching to be mandatory?
In international institutions yes. Too many times what seems like flirting to one culture might be perfectly neutral interaction to another. Such trainings minimize the possibility of awkward conversations (or illegal acts).
On the community at large I would defend sensibilisation campaigns that raise awareness of the problem without accusing anyone of anything. The "don't be that guy" campaign worked quite well in that regard.

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So even all those men who would never commit such a crime have to go through such teaching as well?
In an international institution, yes. And both men and women, because sometimes women have a very tenuous grasp on the concept of consent.

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Is presuming the potential guilt of an entire demographic really the way you want education to function?
I'm not presuming anything. Condom campaigns don't presume anyone in particular will have unprotected sex. But a reminder never hurt anyone. In the same way, for kids that have grown up with their heroes having rows of discardable and interchangeable female accessoires, and that are used to hearing their elders blaming rapes on the garb/intoxication/history of a victim, maybe a well made campaign is the push that gets them thinking.

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Also, when can I expect to see classes such as "teach men not to murder"? And "teach women not to lie about rape"?
In such trainings. And I've seen many cases of murder that might have not happened if there had been previous education on why violence is not an appropriate response to perceived insults (and that such insults will not be considered as a defense in a court of law).

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Because, as much as some don't want to admit it, sometimes women lie about being assaulted, for a variety of reasons. If we are going to subject all men to mandatory teaching about consent because of the actions of a few, then all women should likewise be subjected to mandatory teaching due to the actions of a few.
Addressed above. However, one thing at a time. I tire of the argument "many things are wrong, so let's not discuss this particular wrong until everything is addressed"

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While we're at it, when can I expect the classes for "teach people not to steal" and "teach people not to commit arson", et cetera and so forth.
You see such campaigns regularly, and AFAIR they work better than the "watch your valuables" kind of initiatives.

Also to consider is the schizophrenic nature of societies' relation to sexual assault. There is an universal condemnation of the act in public life, but at the same time there is a number of "exceptions" in pop culture, where heroes coerce, threaten or outright take women by force. This is to be excused or overlooked later on or, worse yet, the woman will enjoy it or at least remain with the hero. Two great examples appeared on GoT, where scenes of consensual sex were turned into rapes, that the female characters will overlook to still love the males.

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Why is only one select type of crime requiring this 'education'?
No, but this thread is about only one type of crime.
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Old 27th June 2016, 04:53 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Women are taught from the time we are children to be careful; to not do such-and-such a thing because you might invite assault/rape, to include walking alone at night, going out with a group of friends and getting drunk, dressing provocatively, etc. The point is, we should not HAVE to teach our daughters these things. The blame should not be placed on women doing these things and as a result getting raped; the blame should be placed squarely where it belongs, on the rapist.
I think the old style attitudes that you describe have almost vanished completely. I don't think anyone blames the victim these days, or at least anyone not personally involved.

Where I think controversy arises today is that people want to label certain activities as rape, when they are not rape.


Technically, even this Stanford case fits that definition. There was no rape in this case, and yet here we are talking about rapists. To be fair, there was a sexual assault, and given that the woman was actually unconscious, it's pretty clear that it was not consensual.

An awful lot of headline grabbing cases are not quite so clear cut.
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Old 27th June 2016, 05:26 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think the old style attitudes that you describe have almost vanished completely. I don't think anyone blames the victim these days, .
Jules Galen is the proof that this not true....

Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
For all those girls who like to dress like sluts and get drunk around strange men, maybe they should be forced to go to "Rape Readiness" classes so they won't be so surprised and traumatized when it eventually happens (and we also won't have to listen to as much of their bitching and moaning!).
This disgusting and misogynistic tirade cannot be construed any other way than;

If she dresses provocatively and gets raped, its her fault.
If she gets drunk, and gets raped, its her fault.

One, and only one person is responsible for rape... the rapist!

No ifs
No buts
No maybes

End of story
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Old 27th June 2016, 05:29 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Jules Galen is the proof that this not true....
Jules Galen is trolling. He does not believe what he writes. When he first started on this streak of posts, I asked him if he was writing a parody. Check his response.
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Old 27th June 2016, 05:50 PM   #588
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You know, I'm sympathetic to the young woman's situation. However, after having read her letter to the Court, there is something that is bothering me to no end about this Victim and her "Letter" and I don't know quite what it is - but I am beginning to understand a few things.

One, she wasn't really hurt physically (from her letter, the hangover was the worst symptom from what I could tell), but she from her writing you'd assume that a finger in her V-JJ is the equivalent of being beaten-bloody and boned by a gang of three-hundred-pound meth-crazed bikers. Too damned dramatic. Check out this statement towards the end of the letter:

He has only apologized for drinking and has yet to define what he did to me as sexual assault, he has revictimized me continually, relentlessly.

Drama, meet Queen!

Two, what she wrote for the court was a political screed - or that's how it ended, at least - and if ya' care about Justice then that's something you should never read in a courtroom.
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Old 27th June 2016, 05:53 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Jules Galen is the proof that this not true....



This disgusting and misogynistic tirade cannot be construed any other way than;

If she dresses provocatively and gets raped, its her fault.
If she gets drunk, and gets raped, its her fault.

One, and only one person is responsible for rape... the rapist!

No ifs
No buts
No maybes

End of story
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Old 27th June 2016, 06:10 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Jules Galen is the proof that this not true....



This disgusting and misogynistic tirade cannot be construed any other way than;

If she dresses provocatively and gets raped, its her fault.
If she gets drunk, and gets raped, its her fault.

One, and only one person is responsible for rape... the rapist!

No ifs
No buts
No maybes

End of story
True. But that clever comment doesn't keep a woman from getting raped, does it?

Ya' know, when some woman is being preyed upon by a monster, it's too easy to say...
1. Well, it's the Monster's Fault
2. A Woman should not have to worry about Monsters
3. It's not Fair that Monsters roam the earth!
.
.
6. And on, and on, and on...and none of it stops rape.

Think about it. Until the earth is free of Monsters, there's a lot of things that women can do to avoid rape....and they ought to take the responsibility to start doing them.
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Old 28th June 2016, 02:20 AM   #591
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Curiously in a similar, previous rape case, Judge Persky acted very differently.
But, hey, Ramirez was an immigrant.
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Old 28th June 2016, 05:46 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Curiously in a similar, previous rape case, Judge Persky acted very differently.
But, hey, Ramirez was an immigrant.
Persky gave Ramirez the minimum sentence allowable for the crime he plead guilty to. He could not legally give Ramirez a lighter sentence than he did.
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Old 28th June 2016, 06:30 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Jules Galen is trolling. He does not believe what he writes. When he first started on this streak of posts, I asked him if he was writing a parody. Check his response.
Eeeeww.
It is one thing to actually believe the stuff JG is posting, but to pretend to believe it. That is sad beyond words.
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Old 28th June 2016, 06:39 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Jules Galen is the proof that this not true....



This disgusting and misogynistic tirade cannot be construed any other way than;

If she dresses provocatively and gets raped, its her fault.
If she gets drunk, and gets raped, its her fault.

I share your disgust at Galen's claims. They are terribly misogynistic.

However, your italicized restatements are not fair. He said that persons who do such-and-such should expect rape. This is not at all the same as saying that the rape is their fault. Back in the day when stereo theft was common, one who left his car unlocked with a decent stereo in it should expect that eventually the stereo would be stolen. This doesn't excuse the thief.

Minor quibble, but to say that one has increased her odds to be raped is not quite the same as saying she bears the fault (morally speaking, especially) for her own victimization.

That said, let me reiterate that I don't agree with what Jules Galen said at all.
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Old 28th June 2016, 01:48 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Your comment above is either dishonest or profoundly ignorant. Anyone with a bit of sense would want that students underwent training regarding, among other issues, consent.

Now please explain using reason why other crimes are not likewise covered under your education mandate.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Colleges are international institutions that receive students from a variety of places. Such trainings assure that every student is aware that practices that they might have grown up thinking are perfectly ok are actually illegal in their own home.

The above is sort of implying that it is foreign (read: non-U.S.) students who are committing the largest share of sexual assaults. Is that really the implication you want to make?

Also, what precisely is the percentage of non-U.S. students at U.S. colleges and universities?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
And yes, such initiatives work, as the "don't be that guy" campaign demonstrated.

Citation needed.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
But society in general propagates that idea. You can refer to the popular media for examples.

Assertion. Might you actually have evidence for this? Remember, you said 'taught'. It's a specific statement that raises a specific question: taught by who?



Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
In a non-illegal way, I would say most men have thought like that at some point of their life. A minority would take it pass the objectification threshold into victimization.

So, by your own statement, the majority must undergo education as a result of a minority. Effectively, the majority of individuals are presumed as potential criminals requiring education.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Ideally by society.

"By society". What does that even mean? So far you have done little than to use various amounts of buzzword-ery.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Please refer to the popular culture for examples. If you want them I can provide them, but please make sure that you actually want to learn something.

Try again; the above in no way answers my specific question. I'll repeat my query:

Might I ask where the evidence is that points to how prevalent this mentality is among men?

I submit the idea that men are willing to sexual assault or rape women is actually rare, at least in the U.S.

In 2014, according to the FBI's UCR, there were some 84,000 cases of forcible rape (legacy definition) reported. For the purposes of argument, let's make some assumptions. Let's say that figure is an under-reporting by a factor of five. The number of cases thus rises to 420,000. Let's further say that each of those 420,000 rapes were committed by a different man. Let's further say that all of those male perpetrators were in the 18-24 age range. There were roughly 31 million people in that age range in the U.S. Let's say half of that total were male. Thus we arrive at 420,000 perpetrators out of 15½ million men, which equals 0.027. That's 2.7%. Which in turn means 97.3% of men did not commit this crime—the vast majority. And this majority figure arrived at using unfavourable starting assumptions. That majority percentage figure only gets larger if more reasonable initial assumptions are made.

Then, of course, there is the fact that crime rates in the U.S. are at forty-year lows. That includes rape. U.S. society hasn't been this safe in a long time (media sensationalism notwithstanding).
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Old 28th June 2016, 02:13 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
In international institutions yes. Too many times what seems like flirting to one culture might be perfectly neutral interaction to another. Such trainings minimize the possibility of awkward conversations (or illegal acts).

Once more: you almost seem to be implying the problem is with foreign (non-U.S.) students. Once more: what is the percentage of foreign-born students as a share of total enrollment in U.S. universities and colleges?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
On the community at large I would defend sensibilisation campaigns that raise awareness of the problem without accusing anyone of anything.

They are being accused—they are being thought of as being too dumb to understand human interactions and thus need to be taught how to interact with someone in a romantic or sexual scenario.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
In an international institution, yes.

And again, the implication that foreigners are the problem. Again, what is the share of foreign students in U.S. post-secondary institutions?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
And both men and women, because sometimes women have a very tenuous grasp on the concept of consent.

Now I'm genuinely curious. What do you think is "the concept of consent"? What does that mean exactly?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
In the same way, for kids that have grown up with their heroes having rows of discardable and interchangeable female accessoires, and that are used to hearing their elders blaming rapes on the garb/intoxication/history of a victim, maybe a well made campaign is the push that gets them thinking.

And what percentage of the population do you think (a) actually thinks like that, and (b) is actually willing to act on such thoughts?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
In such trainings. And I've seen many cases of murder that might have not happened if there had been previous education on why violence is not an appropriate response to perceived insults (and that such insults will not be considered as a defense in a court of law).

It's strange. I never had to take a class to know that certain actions such as murder or rape or theft were wrong. I expect this is true for many, maybe even most, people. I would absolutely resent having to take some sort of course upon enrolling in college/university which treats me as having no moral sense of my own already established by legal adulthood and which considers me too stupid to already know right from wrong.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Addressed above. However, one thing at a time. I tire of the argument "many things are wrong, so let's not discuss this particular wrong until everything is addressed"

No. You've advocated for one specific manner of addressing the problem. That manner is subject to critical examination and logical analysis.


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
Also to consider is the schizophrenic nature of societies' relation to sexual assault. There is an universal condemnation of the act in public life, but at the same time there is a number of "exceptions" in pop culture, where heroes coerce, threaten or outright take women by force. This is to be excused or overlooked later on or, worse yet, the woman will enjoy it or at least remain with the hero. Two great examples appeared on GoT, where scenes of consensual sex were turned into rapes, that the female characters will overlook to still love the males.

So what? It's entertainment. It's not real. It's fiction. And most sensible people understand this.

Are you saying most people cannot differentiate entertainment from reality? Are you suggesting most people will have their morals and ethics shaped by mass media entertainment? Are you implying that people will be encouraged or otherwise have their inhibitions against committing a vile crime lowered by a scene in a movie, television program, book, or video game?


Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
No, but this thread is about only one type of crime.

A type of crime for which some want the legal standard of proof lowered
in criminal court cases to make trying such cases easier. (It is already lowered in college/university administrative procedures).
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Old 28th June 2016, 02:58 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Eeeeww.
It is one thing to actually believe the stuff JG is posting, but to pretend to believe it. That is sad beyond words.
I could be totally misjudging him, but I think his most extreme comments are a variation on a Poe. I think he's deliberately parodying a response by some people that he thinks actually think that way. In reality, almost no Americans really think that way, and I don't think he does, either.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 28th June 2016 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 28th June 2016, 04:07 PM   #598
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I could be totally misjudging him, but I think his most extreme comments are a variation on a Poe. I think he's deliberately parodying a response by some people that he thinks actually think that way.

That's how it seems to me as well.
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Old 28th June 2016, 04:10 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
The above is sort of implying that it is foreign (read: non-U.S.) students who are committing the largest share of sexual assaults. Is that really the implication you want to make?
I'm implying nothing of the sort, and if you dropped your fedora and read what I wrote you would know that.

Quote:
Also, what precisely is the percentage of non-U.S. students at U.S. colleges and universities?
Don't know, don't care, it's irrelevant. I do know international institutions, and that different cultural backgrounds can bring about undesirable situations that are easily avoided with a relatively simple training.

Quote:
Citation needed.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1359241/

Quote:
"By society". What does that even mean? So far you have done little than to use various amounts of buzzword-ery.
Maybe if you tried to comprehend what is written instead of turning up the outrage, you might understand.

I never said that rape was at a whole time high, or high, or anything really. I said that sensibilization campaigns have reduced the rate of sexual assaults, showing that there is a problem to be addressed.

Some people want to address it by limiting the rights of half of the population, I prefer to educate everybody. Apparently education is a punishment for you, but others disagree.
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Old 28th June 2016, 04:30 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
They are being accused—they are being thought of as being too dumb to understand human interactions and thus need to be taught how to interact with someone in a romantic or sexual scenario.
No, they are being given better tools to pinpoint and identify what's wrong, and act on it.

Kid has a fever, more later.
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