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Old 7th June 2016, 07:38 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
He went way beyond "a very stupid decision."
Nitpicking. I'd call premeditated murder a very bad decision, too. I also said he abused another person and did something very bad. What sort of qualifier did you want me to add so that I could be sufficiently outraged?
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
....


In my book, that makes it useless.
Why do you feel punishment is useless?
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why? I am under the impression that sending people to prison for a long time is because they are a danger to the general population.

That's one of the reasons, yes. Traditionally, imprisonment is supposed to serve three different functions in differing levels, depending mainly on which country you're in and, in some countries, how rich you are.

these are:

Punishment
Segregation
Rehabilitation.


So, all those pot smokers the US has locked up are there to be punished and rehabilitated because pot smokers are unlikely to initiate much more of a crime wave than the shoplifting of tasty snacks.

My point is, that if this bloke only goes to prison based on how much of a danger he is going forward (he's a rapist, he's *********** dangerous, just as an aside) then, to remain consistent, there are an awful lot of people in prison in the US who should be released.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:42 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
In my book, that makes it useless.
Punitive is important for deterrence and legitimacy both. There are plenty of cases where we realistically expect a murderer will not kill again. But murder needs to have severe consequences so that the next potential murderer features those into her calculations.

As for the relative severity of rape and murder - I'd much rather be convicted of murder. Many of us can conceive of circumstances where we would kill someone, and so people can understand a murder as a one-time thing. But a person who raped is "a rapist" and is seen as entirely other. The stigma is far worse.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:46 AM   #45
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The guy got the sort of sentence one would expect him to receive if he had been repentant and plead guilty. But he did not. He tried to get away with it and put his victim through a lot of stress because of it. As she point out, she didn't expect it to get to trial because of how clear cut it was. What she expected was entirely reasonable, that he'd plead guilty and everyone could move on.

What I believe the use of giving someone like him a much more harsh punishment is that there should be consequences for trying to get out of such a clear cut case, otherwise there is no real incentive to not. Win and get no punishment, or lose and get six months. No, that's no real incentive to ever actually admit to wrong doing that you did do. While there has to be a balance between the rights of the accused and justice for the accuser, and I would not want anyone innocent to feel they had to plead guilty, this, this isn't that balance.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Why do you feel punishment is useless?
I said that if it's solely for punishment (as stated by AdamSK) then it's useless. The reason being that merely punishing someone isn't a very reliable way to get them to correct their ways. It might work for some, but then that'd be a case-by-case deal.

Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Punitive is important for deterrence and legitimacy both. There are plenty of cases where we realistically expect a murderer will not kill again. But murder needs to have severe consequences so that the next potential murderer features those into her calculations.

As for the relative severity of rape and murder - I'd much rather be convicted of murder. Many of us can conceive of circumstances where we would kill someone, and so people can understand a murder as a one-time thing. But a person who raped is "a rapist" and is seen as entirely other. The stigma is far worse.
Fair enough.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
It's a strange sort of 'rape culture' which (a) saw this young man arrested, prosecuted, and convicted; and (b) has a rate of rape, according to the FBI's UCR, that is at forty-year lows.
Yep. Which is why the SJW concept of "rape culture" is so idiotic.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Nitpicking. I'd call premeditated murder a very bad decision, too. I also said he abused another person and did something very bad. What sort of qualifier did you want me to add so that I could be sufficiently outraged?
It's not nitpicking. Saying he made a very stupid decision makes it sound like a brief lapse in judgement.


Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They guy got the sort of sentence one would expect him to receive if he had be repentant and plead guilty. But he did not. He tried to get away with it and put his victim through a lot of stress because of it. As she point out, she didn't expect it to get to trial because of how clear cut it was. What she expected was entirely reasonable, that he'd plead guilty and everyone could move on.

What I believe the use of giving someone like him a much more harsh punishment is that there should be consequences for trying to get out of such a clear cut case, otherwise there is no real incentive to not. Win and get no punishment, or lose and get six months. No, that's no real incentive to ever actually admit to wrong doing that you did do. While there has to be a balance between the rights of the accused and justice for the accuser, and I would not want anyone innocent to feel they had to plead guilty, this, this isn't that balance.
Agreed 100%
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:54 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's one thing, sure. Does it work, however, and is 15 years reasonable? What kind of person can we expect him to be when he comes out of that system?



In my book, that makes it useless.
In mine too, but you and I haven't been consulted yet for the project of reworking the entire penal theory (still) used by "modern" civilization. If I get the call first I'll be sure to let you know.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:55 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They guy got the sort of sentence one would expect him to receive if he had be repentant and plead guilty. But he did not. He tried to get away with it and put his victim through a lot of stress because of it. ... <snips>..
And if i understand correctly, will continue to try and get away with it. That said, it may be that he is not in control of the legal proceedings. It's possible that his father/family/lawyers have swept him through this process.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
And if i understand correctly, will continue to try and get away with it. That said, it may be that he is not in control of the legal proceedings. It's possible that his father/family/lawyers have swept him through this process.
They can only do that with his consent. Although if he feels violated and feels like he has no agency over what will happen with his life, then maybe some sort of justice is being served.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, wow. You are so righteous and fragile that you can't bother to understand what I said, lest you be corrupted by my words.

I said that it's treated as almost worse than murder. This includes social stigma, a sex offender list, etc. I never said the prison sentences were harsher. That is a fiction of your own invention.
I see no problem treating rapists as almost worse than murderers. Their victims get a life sentence, do they not?
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I see no problem treating rapists as almost worse than murderers. Their victims get a life sentence, do they not?
How is that an argument for treating rapists as almost worse than murderers? The victims of murder don't get a life sentence, they get a death sentence.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
I don't know why you say all men are rapists and all rape accusations should result in immediate death sentences. That's just ridiculous.

Okay, are we done now? Care to read what I actually said and respond to that?
It isn't all men, just clearly a majority of frat parties are rape focused, that is why she should have known better than to go their right? She should have known the drinks would be far stronger than she was expecting as well to cause exactly this. That is why the frat should also be charged for getting her this intoxicated just like a bar would be charged for getting someone this intoxicated right?

Where do the double standards end?
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How is that an argument for treating rapists as almost worse than murderers? The victims of murder don't get a life sentence, they get a death sentence.
The punishment for BEING raped is a lifetime of terror. Because of that, I don't care if there are draconian punishments for the perpetrators.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:33 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And more strawmen from you. Seriously every single response you'd made to me in the last weeks has been a complete non sequitur.

Rape is bad. Very, very bad. However I wonder if sending someone away for 15 years solves anything or teaches him a valuable life lesson so that he doesn't so it again. Somehow you seem to equate this with saying that rape isn't bad.
It isn't bad enough to make it worthwile to punish those who rape as you are framing it. Would society really be better off with Ethan Couch just for killing four people while drunk driving serving a long sentence? People seemed outraged that he got a slap on the wrist even if it would be the best for society.


Quote:
Why? I am under the impression that sending people to prison for a long time is because they are a danger to the general population. For minor offenses, for instance, we typically have fines and community work. The convicted in the OP did something very bad and very stupid, but the sentence must reflect both the danger he poses to others (how likely he is to do something like this again) and what we want to do with him in the future (reform?) in addition to a possible deterrent to others.
So it is often wrong to give serious sentences to drunk drivers who kill. OF course in this case it seems like he will just be more careful about being seen when raping in the future, as no one he actually knows seems to think he did anything bad. So why expect him not to rape again, just his time be more successful in not getting caught?
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:34 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I said nothing about anyone deserving anything. Really, turtle, is this the best you can do?

Yes, actually, I suppose it is.



Again, I said nothing about punishment. I only advised how to avoid making a serious mistake.



I never said that either. Advising people to lock their cars does not constitute excusing car theft of unlocked cars.



You're like a parody of SJW's. Except I know you really are serious, though it's impossible to take you seriously.
Women should not go to frat parties, that is the message we need to get across to young women. They are the overly dangerous neighborhoods and if they go they need to expect to be raped.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:36 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Nitpicking. I'd call premeditated murder a very bad decision, too. I also said he abused another person and did something very bad. What sort of qualifier did you want me to add so that I could be sufficiently outraged?
And that means that many murders are pointless to lock up as well. Really there is no point to prosecuting police who murder innocent people, just fire them and make sure they never work again as police officers, that will be the best solution for everyone.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That's one of the reasons, yes. Traditionally, imprisonment is supposed to serve three different functions in differing levels, depending mainly on which country you're in and, in some countries, how rich you are.

these are:

Punishment
Segregation
Rehabilitation.


So, all those pot smokers the US has locked up are there to be punished and rehabilitated because pot smokers are unlikely to initiate much more of a crime wave than the shoplifting of tasty snacks.

My point is, that if this bloke only goes to prison based on how much of a danger he is going forward (he's a rapist, he's *********** dangerous, just as an aside) then, to remain consistent, there are an awful lot of people in prison in the US who should be released.
And a lot of serious crimes should go unpunished, including most high profile murders. There would have been no point in locking OJ up for example, he should just have said "yea I did it and it isn't a big deal as I will not do it again".
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Yep. Which is why the SJW concept of "rape culture" is so idiotic.
Yes a 14 year old virgin is much more of a crime to rape than a 14 year old who is not a virgin anymore, just ask the judicial system. You can get an even bigger win if you hound the victim into committing suicide. These are all basic proven legal tactics.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:42 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
The punishment for BEING raped is a lifetime of terror. Because of that, I don't care if there are draconian punishments for the perpetrators.
Sure, but this is a stand-alone statement that has nothing to with any comparison to murder. So no matter how much I might agree with it, logically it isn't and cannot be an argument for what you previously said.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:45 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Women should not go to frat parties, that is the message we need to get across to young women. They are the overly dangerous neighborhoods and if they go they need to expect to be raped.
Yeah, still not what I said. But if YOU want to take that position...
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:48 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
no one he actually knows seems to think he did anything bad.

He did. He even knew it was wrong when he was doing it. He ran.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:48 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society?
Yes, I do. He is a rapist. Given the opportunity he will rape again.

As mentioned elsewhere, killing can be a momentary lapse of judgement, severe anger unchecked, it only takes a second to pull the trigger. Rape takes longer, there are more chances to change your mind. Unless you are a rapist.

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If not, why 5 to 15?
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Deterrence.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's one thing, sure. Does it work, however, and is 15 years reasonable? What kind of person can we expect him to be when he comes out of that system?
The kind of person who knows that he will go to prison for a long time for rape.

Compare that to the guy who is coming out of jail in three months who knows that rape isn't such a big deal.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The guy got the sort of sentence one would expect him to receive if he had been repentant and plead guilty. But he did not. He tried to get away with it and put his victim through a lot of stress because of it. As she point out, she didn't expect it to get to trial because of how clear cut it was. What she expected was entirely reasonable, that he'd plead guilty and everyone could move on.

What I believe the use of giving someone like him a much more harsh punishment is that there should be consequences for trying to get out of such a clear cut case, otherwise there is no real incentive to not. Win and get no punishment, or lose and get six months. No, that's no real incentive to ever actually admit to wrong doing that you did do. While there has to be a balance between the rights of the accused and justice for the accuser, and I would not want anyone innocent to feel they had to plead guilty, this, this isn't that balance.
Agreed.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:51 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, still not what I said. But if YOU want to take that position...
You are criticising her decisions, the easiest one to start with is going to that party as it is harder to regulate alcohol consumption at such a place, so why not start there? It seems to be the start of her bad decisions after all. Overly strong drinks at such places are a tradition after all, intended to incapacitate women exactly in this fashion.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:53 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The guy got the sort of sentence one would expect him to receive if he had been repentant and plead guilty. But he did not. He tried to get away with it and put his victim through a lot of stress because of it. As she point out, she didn't expect it to get to trial because of how clear cut it was. What she expected was entirely reasonable, that he'd plead guilty and everyone could move on.

What I believe the use of giving someone like him a much more harsh punishment is that there should be consequences for trying to get out of such a clear cut case, otherwise there is no real incentive to not. Win and get no punishment, or lose and get six months. No, that's no real incentive to ever actually admit to wrong doing that you did do. While there has to be a balance between the rights of the accused and justice for the accuser, and I would not want anyone innocent to feel they had to plead guilty, this, this isn't that balance.
Even now, the guy is denying that it was rape. He wants to go on a promotional tour warning of the dangers of alcohol and promiscuity.

Promiscuity? He wasn't arrested nor convicted of promiscuity.

Somehow, the probation officers don't think he is a threat to society. How in the blazes can they say that? He clearly does not understand what he did wrong in the first place (he was convicted of rape, so his denials that he did it and his claims that she consented have no standing any more; he is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have raped her).

This is not a consequence of lifestyle (alcohol and promiscuity). This is about entitlement and violation. That's the tour he should be on. "I thought the rules didn't apply to me. I thought I could take what I wanted. I was wrong. And as a result, I am a rapist."

Then, maybe, I'd consider giving him a lighter sentence.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:54 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He did. He even knew it was wrong when he was doing it. He ran.
He clearly didn't care enough to actually not do it. And with everyone saying he wasn't at fault I think it highly unlikely he will see any reason not to do it again, though maybe not somewhere that people could walk by and stop him.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:55 AM   #68
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I don't mean this to sound callous, but it might, so sorry for that:

What on earth is the appeal in an unconscious woman? I don't get it. Removing, for a moment (and this is the callous bit) the fact that he clearly can't actually live by the rules of polite society, how much pleasure can one get from a 'partner' that's unconscious?
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:55 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He did. He even knew it was wrong when he was doing it. He ran.
Because the bike guys were chasing after him.

ETA: And if he knows it was wrong, why is he denying it now? He is now claiming she consented, and that it wasn't rape.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What on earth is the appeal in an unconscious woman? I don't get it.
Not to get all feminist and everything, but it's about power. It's not about having great sex, it's about being able to use her body for pleasure.

Now, I like that as well with my wife, but she let's me. And she is conscious.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:01 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Because the bike guys were chasing after him.

ETA: And if he knows it was wrong, why is he denying it now? He is now claiming she consented, and that it wasn't rape.
That's easy - he's lying.

He knew it was wrong, he thought he'd try and get away.

Now he knows it's wrong but actually lacks the compassion and the empathy to front up and admit to the world that he's a ****.

I understand that rehabilitation normally requires an admission of guilt and at least the perception that the wrongdoer has remorse. As far as I can tell, this bloke's just doing the 'what can I do to lighten my sentence' dance.

I'm not one for draconian sentencing, but this bloke (and his immediate circle of friends) seems to have no concept that what he did was not only illegal, but downright evil.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:04 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are criticising her decisions
Oh noes!!!1!1

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the easiest one to start with is going to that party as it is harder to regulate alcohol consumption at such a place, so why not start there?
False. It is very easy for a person to regulate their own alcohol consumption. It's also easy for the university to regulate alcohol consumption (in particular, it was illegal for anyone to serve alcohol to Brock Turner). There was, however, no legal mechanism to regulate attendance at the party.

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It seems to be the start of her bad decisions after all.
Yet it's still not the position that I took. If you want to take that position, go ahead. Just don't attribute it to me.

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Overly strong drinks at such places are a tradition after all, intended to incapacitate women exactly in this fashion.
Seems like you're actually in agreement, then, that getting black-out drunk at a party surrounded by strangers is a bad idea.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:08 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It isn't bad enough to make it worthwile to punish those who rape as you are framing it. Would society really be better off with Ethan Couch just for killing four people while drunk driving serving a long sentence? People seemed outraged that he got a slap on the wrist even if it would be the best for society.
When you're done building and fighting strawmen and are interested in an actual discussion, let us know.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:10 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
It's not nitpicking. Saying he made a very stupid decision makes it sound like a brief lapse in judgement.
No, it doesn't. That's like saying that what he did is "bad" -- it doesn't equate it with forgetting to turn out your car lights, even though this is also "bad".

Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
In mine too, but you and I haven't been consulted yet for the project of reworking the entire penal theory (still) used by "modern" civilization. If I get the call first I'll be sure to let you know.
Don't forget to consult me before responding to them.

Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I see no problem treating rapists as almost worse than murderers. Their victims get a life sentence, do they not?
Some rape victims are scarred for life, sure. I don't know if most of them do, but that doesn't sound relevant to how we deal with the perpetrator, if the principal goal is rehabilitation.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:11 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That's easy - he's lying.

He knew it was wrong, he thought he'd try and get away.

Now he knows it's wrong but actually lacks the compassion and the empathy to front up and admit to the world that he's a ****.

I understand that rehabilitation normally requires an admission of guilt and at least the perception that the wrongdoer has remorse. As far as I can tell, this bloke's just doing the 'what can I do to lighten my sentence' dance.
But I don't understand how this behavior is getting his sentence reduced. Leniency generally involves admitting guilt. You have to understand what you did is wrong, and why it is wrong. Based on his current words, he doesn't. And if he is lying, why? Wouldn't it be better if he were honest, and admitted his guilt?
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:14 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that means that many murders are pointless to lock up as well. Really there is no point to prosecuting police who murder innocent people, just fire them and make sure they never work again as police officers, that will be the best solution for everyone.
Don't you ever get tired of building those strawmen? Do you read posts, see that you disagree with them, and then proceed, deliberately, to respond as if they mean something else entirely for kicks, or is there a point to all this? Are you capable of responding to people with whom you disagree in a way that encourages discussion rather than ridicule? Because right now, ridicule is all you'll get.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:15 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, I do. He is a rapist. Given the opportunity he will rape again.
You don't know that. You are taking one data point and treating it like an absolute. By that logic, anyone who does anything wrong or illegal will do so again and thought, therefore, be locked up.

Quote:
As mentioned elsewhere, killing can be a momentary lapse of judgement
So can fondling and raping an unconscious person at a drunk party, as horrible as that is. Maybe not in this particular idiot's case, of course. If it was premeditated, then he's more dangerous than the average drunk rapist.

Quote:
The kind of person who knows that he will go to prison for a long time for rape.
And what will that accomplish? You just said that he will rape again, so maybe he'll just be more careful, or more deadly, next time.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Not to get all feminist and everything, but it's about power. It's not about having great sex, it's about being able to use her body for pleasure.
Which has nothing to do with power, but sex.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:15 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's one thing, sure. Does it work, however, and is 15 years reasonable? What kind of person can we expect him to be when he comes out of that system?
Whether it should be 5 years or 15 years, I don't know. I do know that 6 months is way too less.

If every accused criminal knows that going to court and getting convicted isn't necessarily going to get them a tougher sentence, why would anyone confess wrongdoing? As such, those who choose to fight it out in court should be given a reasonably harsh sentence if found guilty.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:23 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But I don't understand how this behavior is getting his sentence reduced. Leniency generally involves admitting guilt. You have to understand what you did is wrong, and why it is wrong. Based on his current words, he doesn't. And if he is lying, why? Wouldn't it be better if he were honest, and admitted his guilt?
Ah, we may be at cross purposes - I have been somewhat leaping around all over the place, my apologies.

It shouldn't, is the answer. As I say, I'm not one for draconian punishments but until this bloke at lest does a passable impression of remorse, he should be maximum sentence, no parole. If he can show, or at least convincingly fake, that he now knows what the rest of us knew all along - that an unconscious drunk girl is not in anyway there for his use - then he could be considered for parole.

And I'm normally a card carrying, Gruiniad reading bleeding heart liberal - go figure.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:26 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
that doesn't sound relevant to how we deal with the perpetrator, if the principal goal is rehabilitation.
I don't think that is the principal goal. I think the principal goal is, as Adam pointed out on page 1, deterrence.
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