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Old 8th June 2016, 07:15 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Plenty of people seem more concerned about her actions than those of the rapist or the judge that didn't want to ruin his life just because he raped a irresponsible woman like that.
The word is "unresponsive".
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:20 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
No need to read minds. Yes he wanted sex, but he got it through violence and cobtrol. If it weren't for violence and control he wouldn't have had sex
.


THIS, in spades!!
If it was just sex, I am informed that there are anthroform figures constructed of polymer for this purpose. And unlike drunk passed out women, they won't vomit on you.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:34 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What did he do to her? What was he found guilty of?
He was found guilty of sexual penetration of an intoxicated person, sexual penetration of an unconscious person, and assault with intent to commit rape.

(The penetration was, as best I can tell from news accounts, with a finger.)
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:07 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It is obvious that lack of consent is an essential part of rape, just as it is obvious that sexual activity is also an essential part of rape. If that's all you meant, then your statement was half right (up to the not about sex part).

Perhaps I should have said that rape is not just about sex?
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:09 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
If it was just sex, I am informed that there are anthroform figures constructed of polymer for this purpose. And unlike drunk passed out women, they won't vomit on you.

I would presume that, for some persons, performing sexual activity with a living, breathing person is a required component, and a non-living, inanimate piece of plastic doesn't count. A crude analogy would be those for whom looking at photos of Paris simply doesn't suffice; they must actually visit Paris.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:28 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How much leeway do judges have in cases like this? Six months does seem awfully lenient, but how does it compare to others?


I look at this case and see a pretty serious crime, but, as rapes go, it could be a lot worse. In other words, if the law allows for a six month sentence for rape, I'm trying to imagine what sort of rape case would be appropriate for such a light sentence. I think the best answer would be that rape should never be punished so lightly, but if you were to accept the premise, which is apparently present in the law, that it ever could be punished so lightly, this one seems a candidate for light sentencing.
The minimum sentence according to California law in cases like this is six YEARS in prison. The judge chose to grant an exception on the basis of "well, it'll badly affect him, so I don't think he should get six years", or something to that effect. That's probably oversimplifying the judge's reasoning, but that's all that's really available in most news reports on the matter, so it's what I'm going with absent other reasons. I haven't seen that the judge's ruling has ever been made available for everyone to read; it may very well contain other reasons for his decision to grant an exception to the rule.

He may not have actually had full intercourse with her, but the charges brought against him were all felonies. Felonies should carry worse sentences than misdemeanors; that's why they're felonies. Six months for three felonies is laughable; you can get more than that for some misdemeanors, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 8th June 2016, 08:35 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps I should have said that rape is not just about sex?
As I understand it from the psychological studies on the matter, the PRIMARY motivation of rape is the sense of control and power over another; sexual satisfaction in the form of intercourse or other sexual activity is secondary. Certainly sex is a factor in rape, but most psychologists agree that most rapists are more interested in asserting control over their victims. The vast majority of rapists often have a healthy, normal sex life outside of the rapes they commit, so if it were just about sex, they can get that from their regular partner(s). Certainly it isn't correct to say rape is only about power and control, but it's equally wrong to say it's just about sex.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:40 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post

He may not have actually had full intercourse with her, but the charges brought against him were all felonies. Felonies should carry worse sentences than misdemeanors; that's why they're felonies. Six months for three felonies is laughable; you can get more than that for some misdemeanors, if I'm not mistaken.


I'm from Canada and I'm pretty sure that's right around what he would get here. I say this because I see a lot of Canadians outraged at the sentence, not realize it's pretty much what they would get here. My buddies dad molested his toddler granddaughter for like 2 years. He got 6 months and was out in 3.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:43 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
As I understand it from the psychological studies on the matter, the PRIMARY motivation of rape is the sense of control and power over another; sexual satisfaction in the form of intercourse or other sexual activity is secondary. Certainly sex is a factor in rape, but most psychologists agree that most rapists are more interested in asserting control over their victims. The vast majority of rapists often have a healthy, normal sex life outside of the rapes they commit, so if it were just about sex, they can get that from their regular partner(s). Certainly it isn't correct to say rape is only about power and control, but it's equally wrong to say it's just about sex.


I would say in this case, this type of rape, it would be all about sex.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:48 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps I should have said that rape is not just about sex?
Maybe, but "about" is still vague.

I think that what you meant is: rape involves control and/or violence in addition to sexual activity. Surely, no one could doubt that claim.

Pardon my pedantry, but often it seems that people are asserting that rape is motivated by exclusively non-sexual things, like control and violence. Now, that's probably true in many cases, but surely not in all cases that we call rape these days.

Thanks for your clarification. Sorry for the pedantry again.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:49 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
It's a philosophical approach the very concept of "rape." What possible "evidence" from a forty year old notion would you like?

It isn't about looking at each and every rape case individually and checking one box or the other "yep, he was just horny" vs "yep, it was a violent attack." It was about women demanding that an unwanted and very personal assault on a woman's body without her permission be treated as Assault, not as a sexual transaction.

Touching another person without their permission is assault battery - once
contact is made it leaves assault and becomes battery
Taking a person's clothing off without their permission is assault battery - again, contact is made.

Taking something from a person without their permission is theft.

Shoving dirty fingers and pine needles into a woman's orifice is assault with an object and is a battery on the person..


Rape is not a sexual transaction. It's an assault and battery by one person on another, forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

If rape were a purely sexual transaction he should marry her or pay her a fair price for the good time. Would that be consistent with our cultural values?
FTFY............. and the last never should be consistent with anyone's values!!!!!

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Old 8th June 2016, 09:56 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How much leeway do judges have in cases like this? Six months does seem awfully lenient, but how does it compare to others?


I look at this case and see a pretty serious crime, but, as rapes go, it could be a lot worse. In other words, if the law allows for a six month sentence for rape, I'm trying to imagine what sort of rape case would be appropriate for such a light sentence. I think the best answer would be that rape should never be punished so lightly, but if you were to accept the premise, which is apparently present in the law, that it ever could be punished so lightly, this one seems a candidate for light sentencing.
With a light hanging for it!!!!!!! Middle C size piano wire perhaps.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:25 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm from Canada and I'm pretty sure that's right around what he would get here. I say this because I see a lot of Canadians outraged at the sentence, not realize it's pretty much what they would get here. My buddies dad molested his toddler granddaughter for like 2 years. He got 6 months and was out in 3.
Okay, but again, the minimum sentence in CALIFORNIA, where this crime took place, was actually six YEARS. By law, that is what Turner should have gotten. It's all well and good to say that's what he might have gotten in Canada, but this didn't happen there. There's a reason they made the law say that MINIMUM these sorts of felonies should get six years.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:34 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I would say in this case, this type of rape, it would be all about sex.
I would have to disagree. The power and control aspect was very much in play here. He had the ultimate power over her due to her inability to consent to his actions, and had complete control of her body to do with as he wished. Had she been awake and aware, she likely would have stopped his actions either verbally or physically. Because she was completely incapable of doing so, he took advantage of that.

As an analogy; a girl goes to a bar, a guy buys her a drink, but unbeknownst to her, he spikes it with a date rape drug such as Rohypnol. When she wakes up, she will likely have absolutely no memory of what was done to her, due to the documented side effects of Rohypnol which include memory loss. During her insensibility, the man carries out similar actions to what Brock Turner did to his victim and is only stopped because two eyewitnesses come upon him molesting her in the alley behind the bar and capture him. The drug is different; the outcome is the same. Both our hypothetical male and Brock Turner took advantage of the victim's inability to say no to do what they wanted to the victim. I won't deny that sex is, again, part of the motivation, but there are easier ways to get sex than drugging someone to the point of insensibility and shoving your hand inside of their unconscious body.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:51 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
I would have to disagree. The power and control aspect was very much in play here. He had the ultimate power over her due to her inability to consent to his actions, and had complete control of her body to do with as he wished. Had she been awake and aware, she likely would have stopped his actions either verbally or physically. Because she was completely incapable of doing so, he took advantage of that.
In the sense he took used the oppurtunity because he had all the power and control, then yes... The act would not have taken place had he not had all the power and control. But really, he was bombed and raped her for sexual gratification. If a thief had saw her passed out and came over and stole her purse... No one would say it was about power and control... he wanted her money.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:53 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Okay, but again, the minimum sentence in CALIFORNIA, where this crime took place, was actually six YEARS. By law, that is what Turner should have gotten. It's all well and good to say that's what he might have gotten in Canada, but this didn't happen there. There's a reason they made the law say that MINIMUM these sorts of felonies should get six years.
Yeah.. minimum sentencing laws are ridiculous. I actually think the sentence is about what he should get. Maybe a year.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:11 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
In the sense he took used the oppurtunity because he had all the power and control, then yes... The act would not have taken place had he not had all the power and control. But really, he was bombed and raped her for sexual gratification. If a thief had saw her passed out and came over and stole her purse... No one would say it was about power and control... he wanted her money.
Exactly what sort of sexual gratification do you think a regular, everyday guy (Like Turner has been representing himself as) would get from dry-humping and fingering an unconscious body? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but a large part of a regular, everyday person's sexual pleasure while engaging in sexual activity with another person is usually derived from their partner's enjoyment of the activity. She was completely unconscious, she wouldn't be making moans of enjoyment or moving around or in any way responding to his actions. Sure, he was aroused, but I would bet cash money that if we could have read his mind at the moment of his actions, it wouldn't have been saying "Oh my god she's making me so hot" but more along the lines of "Oh my god I can do anything I want to her and she can't stop me." Power and control can have an aphrodisiac-like effect on people; this case is no different.

Again, I don't deny that sex is very much part of his motivation, as it is in most rapes. I merely deny that it was his sole motivation and the idea that his victim could not stop him from doing anything he wanted had nothing to do with it.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:16 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Yeah.. minimum sentencing laws are ridiculous. I actually think the sentence is about what he should get. Maybe a year.
You clearly do not understand the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor in the United States then.

Most misdemeanors are the crimes which carry punishments of less than a year of jail time in the US. Felonies carry punishments over a year, depending on the severity of the felony. Turner was convicted of three felonies. Exactly how do you then come to the conclusion that six months is a sufficient punishment for three felonies? That comes out to two months per felony, by your metric. Forgive me for saying this, but Canadian law is utter BS if your punishments are so minimal for severe crimes like this.

Six years is, in my opinion, the minimum he should have received. Two years per felony. Six months is a joke.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:43 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
You clearly do not understand the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor in the United States then.

Most misdemeanors are the crimes which carry punishments of less than a year of jail time in the US. Felonies carry punishments over a year, depending on the severity of the felony. Turner was convicted of three felonies. Exactly how do you then come to the conclusion that six months is a sufficient punishment for three felonies? That comes out to two months per felony, by your metric. Forgive me for saying this, but Canadian law is utter BS if your punishments are so minimal for severe crimes like this.

Six years is, in my opinion, the minimum he should have received. Two years per felony. Six months is a joke.


Actually I might not all that well. But I don't have to. I know what he did and I would have given him 6 months to a year.

Also. Isn't 3 fellonies really just piling on?
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:15 AM   #340
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This article goes into the sex registry situation, to which Turner will be added.

The judge is running for reelection, but is unopposed. There is a recall effort.

With regards to the "power" debate, I believe the last model I read had views about consensual sex involving power underlied belief in rape myths, which then determined rape proclivity.
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Old 9th June 2016, 12:45 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Actually I might not all that well. But I don't have to. I know what he did and I would have given him 6 months to a year.

Also. Isn't 3 fellonies really just piling on?
By that metric, someone who beats a person to the point of breaking bones (assault and battery) in order to steal their car (grand theft auto) should only be charged once. He committed three separate crimes: sexual penetration of an intoxicated person, sexual penetration of an unconscious person, and assault with intent to commit rape. Each of those is a separate charge. Had she not been unconscious, the second charge wouldn't have been necessary, but she was both intoxicated and unconscious. You can be intoxicated without being unconscious, and you can be unconscious without being intoxicated, so separate charges for those crimes makes sense. As for the third; I think it's self explanatory. Had the two graduate students not come upon him, it is very likely that Turner would have gone on to rape her with his genitals rather than just his fingers.
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Old 9th June 2016, 01:47 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Repeating: Getting drunk to the point of passing out is a bad decision. Now, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome (of various types, up to potentially death).
You're wasting your time. Some people just can't tell the difference.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
THIS, in spades!!
The same is true for theft. Is theft about power and control?

Quote:
Perhaps I should have said that rape is not just about sex?
The problem is your use of the word "about". It seems to mean that the thing that the criminal is looking for is control and power, not sex. Now you seem to be saying that power and control are a means to an end. Which is it?
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Old 9th June 2016, 02:45 AM   #343
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In 2014 Stanford had 26 rapes and 4 fondlings reported on campus, and 22 rapes and 2 fondlings in student housing (this is the first year we have from data from the Clery Act that separates out rape). It had a population of 16,963 students.

http://ope.ed.gov/campussafety/#/institution/details

Let us go with the widely cited "80% of sexual assaults on campus go unreported".

www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

Incidentally, this also shows that college age students are less likely to be raped or sexist assaulted than non-students of the same age-group. What did this say about the "rape culture" of college campuses?

Now, let's add them all together and correct for underreporting.

(((26+4)÷0.2)÷16963)×100=0.88

So about 0.88% or roughly 1 in 113 experienced rape or sexual assault at Stanford in 2014.

In order to get numbers like 1 in 4 or 5 we would have to assume over 99% of them go unreported for a total over 22x the size, closer to 3392.6 rapes/assaults rather than 150.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:19 AM   #344
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You double-counted. The on-campus student housing results are a subset of the on-campus results. It was 30 altogether of which 24 were in the dorms.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:30 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
By that metric, someone who beats a person to the point of breaking bones (assault and battery) in order to steal their car (grand theft auto) should only be charged once. He committed three separate crimes: sexual penetration of an intoxicated person, sexual penetration of an unconscious person, and assault with intent to commit rape.
Yeah. I don't think it should be illegal to have sex with a drunk person, especially if you are also drunk. So I don't like the 1st charge at all. It absolutely should be a crime to have sex with an unconscious person, but what I don't get is that seems to say that if she was conscious and he dragged her kicking and screaming, he would have only been charged with the one felony instead of the 2, where the kicking and screaming scenario seems much, much worst to me. Maybe there is a greater charge to deal with that discrepancy.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:30 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Getting drunk to the point of passing out is a bad decision. Now, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome (of various types, up to potentially death).
And that is an outcome made much more likely by drinking at frat parties, so we just project back a bit and anyone who attends frat parties is by definition reckless and irresponsible.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:31 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Or have friends who keep track of you and haul you off if you collapse. Which is what we did in college.
Of course such friends are also the most likely group to sexually assault one, as far more women are assaulted by their friends after such a party than by random strangers.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:33 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Getting drunk to the point of passing out is a bad decision. Now, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome (of various types, up to potentially death).
Only if it was a decision and not simply a mistake.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:35 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Repeating: Getting drunk to the point of passing out is a bad decision. Now, a bad decision doesn't mean someone deserves something bad happening to them as a result. But that bad decision nevertheless places one at greater risk of encountering a bad outcome (of various types, up to potentially death).
And focuses on the responsibility she bears in this rape, as such it is a good way to help justify the light sentence that he received. Just ask his friend who wrote the character reference for the court. There is a big difference between this guy and real rapists.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:36 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
With due respect, women shouldn't have to behave differently than men. That is, were the world ideal, this wouldn't be the case. As it is (at least, according to those to whom you are responding[1]), the world is less than ideal and a drunk woman is much more likely to get assaulted than a sober woman or a drunk man.

[1] I tend to think that what I've said is perfectly true. I'm not sure the odds are so bad that I'd call a woman stupid for getting drunk among strangers, but I do think that the probability of a drunk woman getting raped is much higher than that of either a sober woman or a drunk man. It is, of course, a situation that we should work to change, but that's how it is now.
The odds are also not good for people getting drunk around friends as most rapes are not from strangers. It is just people prefer to focus on that and not the times a friend rapes their passed out friend.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:42 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How much leeway do judges have in cases like this? Six months does seem awfully lenient, but how does it compare to others?


I look at this case and see a pretty serious crime, but, as rapes go, it could be a lot worse. In other words, if the law allows for a six month sentence for rape, I'm trying to imagine what sort of rape case would be appropriate for such a light sentence. I think the best answer would be that rape should never be punished so lightly, but if you were to accept the premise, which is apparently present in the law, that it ever could be punished so lightly, this one seems a candidate for light sentencing.
I found this to be a good article talking about average sentences for rape and variations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ce-so-unusual/
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:45 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think it should. One of the horrors of rape is that the victim might end up pregnant with the rapist's child. Can't happen in this case. The victim could end up with a sexually transmitted disease. Extremely unlikely without penetration.
So if you rape her ass that should be a lesser charge that real rape? No horror of possible pregnancy after all. And if the victim is not able to bear children by not having a womb for what ever reason that should also be a lesser charge then?
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:46 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
The word is "unresponsive".
But that was because she was being so irresponsible by attending a frat party. That is the main point many are making here after all.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:48 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps I should have said that rape is not just about sex?
I find sex is rarely just about sex.
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Old 9th June 2016, 03:51 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Yeah.. minimum sentencing laws are ridiculous. I actually think the sentence is about what he should get. Maybe a year.
What crimes deserve serious sentences if rape isn't one of them?
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:00 AM   #356
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It's too intoxicated to resist the penetration, not just drunk.
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:00 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What crimes deserve serious sentences if rape isn't one of them?
Rape is one of them. I would give this guy a year.
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:25 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
You double-counted. The on-campus student housing results are a subset of the on-campus results. It was 30 altogether of which 24 were in the dorms.
Thanks. Corrected.
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:31 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
The minimum sentence according to California law in cases like this is six YEARS in prison.
I looked it up. The minimum sentence is two years for the assault charge. Three for the sexual penetration of an unconscious person. They wouldn't normally be cumulative, so three years would be the minimum "normal" sentence. I don't know what provisions of the law allow judges to reduce the sentences.
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Old 9th June 2016, 04:42 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I find sex is rarely just about sex.
Do explain.
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