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Tags police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 16th June 2019, 09:01 PM   #1
Checkmite
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Fatal mixup at Costco

In case you haven't been following this story: Friday night at a Costco in California, a man shot and killed another man and wounded two other people. Police originally reported that there had been an argument and the shooter was taken into custody, but that turns out not to have been true; the shooter was sent to a hospital to be looked over for injuries and was then released without charge. Since then it was reported that the shooter, an off-duty policy officer, says he was attacked while carrying his child by the three people he shot and that he was forced to defend himself with his handgun.

Today it has been reported that according to a relative of the people who were shot, the dead man, named Kenneth French, was non-verbal and mentally disabled, and the two people who were wounded were his parents and caretakers, Russell and Paola French. Russell is in critical condition in the ICU, although his condition is reportedly improving; his wife Paola remains in a coma.

Quote:
Shureih doesn’t know what might have led to the shooting, but he said it’s unlikely that Kenneth French initiated a verbal confrontation. His cousin’s mental condition had declined in recent years, and he no longer spoke.

“It could have been that he bumped into somebody but couldn’t communicate the fact that he was sorry,” Shureih said.
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Old 16th June 2019, 09:19 PM   #2
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Surely costco can provide access to the cctv footage. Sounds like another polite cop politely asking brown people to back off, lie down and not get up using the politest of all tools, a firearm.
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Old 16th June 2019, 09:23 PM   #3
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Really interesting, thanks. I'll look for a link.
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Old 16th June 2019, 09:26 PM   #4
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Oh for pity ******* sakes.
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Old 16th June 2019, 11:22 PM   #5
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Man, don't read the comments.

I'm going to withhold judgement on this one since I haven't seen the video, but it sounds like a tragic situation.
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Old 18th June 2019, 08:05 PM   #6
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Reports now saying that the dead man was schizophrenic and off his medication.
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Old 18th June 2019, 08:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Reports now saying that the dead man was schizophrenic and off his medication.
I hope the family survived.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I hope the family survived.
Parents survived, barely. Both in critical condition.Their lawyer speaks:
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...618-story.html
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:30 PM   #9
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https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...618-story.html

This article describes one side of the story as told by the attorney for the family and another side of the story as told by the attorney for the police officer.

According to the attorney for the family, he was not "off his meds" but had recently had a change of medications.
Quote:
French is normally calm, but he had a recent change of medications that might have affected his behavior, Galipo said.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:30 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Parents survived, barely. Both in critical condition.Their lawyer speaks:
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...618-story.html
Quote:
Other speakers questioned why an officer was carrying a firearm while off duty in a crowded store.
D'uh. Because most (all) police departments require off duty officers to carry weapons.

I don't get this one. The deceased was shot after shooting other people. There wasn't any, repeat NO REASON, not to shoot the guy. Sad as that is.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...618-story.html

This article describes one side of the story as told by the attorney for the family and another side of the story as told by the attorney for the police officer.

According to the attorney for the family, he was not "off his meds" but had recently had a change of medications.
So sue the ******* doctors, not the cops.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
D'uh. Because most (all) police departments require off duty officers to carry weapons.

I don't get this one. The deceased was shot after shooting other people. There wasn't any, repeat NO REASON, not to shoot the guy. Sad as that is.
Huh? Did you read a different story than I did?

One more thing from the story:
Quote:
Johnstone said his department’s investigation had been hindered by not being able to interview everyone involved. It was unclear to whom he was referencing [sic].
I wonder if that means the police officer hasn't been interviewed.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
D'uh. Because most (all) police departments require off duty officers to carry weapons.

I don't get this one. The deceased was shot after shooting other people. There wasn't any, repeat NO REASON, not to shoot the guy. Sad as that is.
I think you're confusing some stories. The Costco guy wasn't armed and didn't shoot anybody, and his parents were apparently trying calm down the off-duty cop that the mentally disabled son bumped, accidentally or otherwise.

And in most jurisdictions, as I understand it, cops are permitted to carry their weapons, but not required to. If they are required to, that in effect would mean they're on duty, with legal and financial liability for the department.

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Old 18th June 2019, 09:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So sue the ******* doctors, not the cops.
Easy there. We don't know why he changed medications.
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Old 18th June 2019, 10:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
... I don't get this one. The deceased was shot after shooting engaging in a physical altercation with the shooter that had ended and was being mediated prior to the shot. There wasn't any, repeat NO REASON, not to shoot the guy. Sad as that is.
Fixed part of that for you.

The support for deadly force has no easy fix, sadly. Violence is habit-forming, and opiates are not the worst addiction facing the USA.
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Old 18th June 2019, 10:09 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Huh? Did you read a different story than I did?

One more thing from the story:


I wonder if that means the police officer hasn't been interviewed.
Other stories have referenced that neither of the developmentally disabled man's parents can currently speak due to being nearly dead.

And as you stated, the now dead guy didn't shoot anyone. He was non-verbal.

It sounds as if the victim bumped into or knocked over the off-duty cop (who was holding his own child) who was getting a free sample. Perhaps the victim was also trying to get a sample. For those not familiar with Costco, there are little stations around the store handing out free food samples, sometimes crowds can form around them.

Developmentally disabled guy knocks over the cop - intentional or not. Cop hits his head, gets disoriented and angry. Parents try to calm the cop, perhaps having the opposite effect. Either way, cop shoots three unarmed people, killing one who was developmentally disabled to the point of being non-verbal.

The cops will circle the wagons, but it seems inevitable that he'll face charges sooner or later.
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Old 18th June 2019, 10:15 PM   #17
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What i do not understand in these situations is the reluctance to arrest the shooter. Three unarmed people shot one fatally. Regardless of whether he is an off-duty cop he should be arrested and interviewed under caution (with counsel). He should be tested for alcohol and drug intoxication. He might be subsequently released if there was no risk to others. An un-uniformed off-duty police officer should be treated the same as anyone else.

I see his union spokesman justifies the shooting on the grounds rhat he was confused and panicked having been knocked out. It is hardly re-assuring to know that being confused is a justification for a LEO shooting you.

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Old 18th June 2019, 10:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Easy there. We don't know why he changed medications.
In fact, people have to change their psychiatric medication all the time. No two patients react to the same medication in the same way, so part of psychiatric care involves finding the particular cocktail of medication and therapy that works best for the patient.
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Old 18th June 2019, 10:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What i do not understand in these situations is the reluctance to arrest the shooter.
There was at first, because the shooter was probably the only one who was able to actually, physically speak when the police arrived and so they got a heavily skewed version of the story.

Earlier articles suggested the dead man was in the process of attacking the off-duty cop and he was "forced to defend himself". Now it's starting to look like the off-duty cop was hit, whether accidentally or otherwise, but that maybe the incident was essentially over when he decided to haul off and start shooting. What I don't get is why the reluctance to arrest him NOW, or at least take his gun away while the investigation is pending.
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:22 AM   #20
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I'm gonna go with "Because he's a cop and cops protect their own."
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:06 AM   #21
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This is absurd. Even in this highly favorable story the cop's attorney is peddling, I see no reason why the officer should not have been arrested on the spot. Even if you buy the story that the mentally disabled man shoved the officer so hard that it caused him to lose consciousness and thus be justifiable cause to use deadly force, two other people were shot that were not engaged in violence.

At the very least, two counts of criminal negligence occurred. No justification has been offered why the shooting of both parents was not, at the very least, criminal negligence, if not aggravated assault or attempted murder.

You can be sure that if an lawfully armed citizen killed an unarmed man and injured two others he would be arrested on the spot. There is no collateral damage exemption in self-defense scenarios.

Cops truly are first class citizens. Under a similar fact pattern, an ordinary citizen would be starting in a very deep hole and have a long climb out to prove their innocence. Cops circle the wagons and it's the burden of society to prove that their violence isn't justified. Disgusting.
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:37 AM   #22
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Were there no other eyewitnesses to this event?
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:52 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Were there no other eyewitnesses to this event?
According to the LA Times article there is a CCTV video of it and the attorney for the family has seen it.

I would attribute a slowness in the family's story coming out to the fact that both parents were in critical condition after being shot. An earlier article had the mother in a coma, and I haven't seen any update on her condition. For a few days, the only story available was the one from the cop that shot three people.

The family has an attorney now, there's mention of a video, and more details are starting to come out. Hopefully we can see some movement on this case now.
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Old 19th June 2019, 05:47 AM   #24
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Off the meds...

Originally Posted by The Washington Post
A man fatally shot in a Southern California Costco store was mentally ill and off his medication when he pushed or slapped an off-duty police officer who opened fire and killed the man and critically wounded the man’s parents, the lawyer for the man’s family said Tuesday...

He had been taken off his medication due to other health complications, which may have affected his behavior Friday night, Attorney Dale Galipo said...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...c38_story.html
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Old 19th June 2019, 06:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Article still says that the mother is not conscious and it is unclear whether she will survive.

I stand by my point that, regardless of whether or not the mentally disabled man was attacking with enough intensity to justify deadly force, the shooting of both parents may very well be criminal. The right to self defense does not excuse collateral damage.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:15 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Article still says that the mother is not conscious and it is unclear whether she will survive.

I stand by my point that, regardless of whether or not the mentally disabled man was attacking with enough intensity to justify deadly force, the shooting of both parents may very well be criminal. The right to self defense does not excuse collateral damage.

Why? You can't picture a scenario where the parents were trying to hold back their son from attacking the man but were unable. That would put them in extreme close proximity.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:21 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Why? You can't picture a scenario where the parents were trying to hold back their son from attacking the man but were unable. That would put them in extreme close proximity.
And in the shooter's line of sight, which if he had any semblance of conscience would've compelled him to hold his fire for that reason alone.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:15 AM   #28
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Sheesh, if you can't shoot someone who bumps into you, who can you shoot? Charging the cop makes a mockery of the 2nd amendment
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:25 AM   #29
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There is a favorite adage in certain circles that goes, "an armed society is a polite society". To an extent this is true enough; certainly no one is more civil in his comportment than a dead man.
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Old 19th June 2019, 06:05 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Article still says that the mother is not conscious and it is unclear whether she will survive.

I stand by my point that, regardless of whether or not the mentally disabled man was attacking with enough intensity to justify deadly force, the shooting of both parents may very well be criminal. The right to self defense does not excuse collateral damage.
He wasn't mentally disabled, he was schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, not a disability.
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He wasn't mentally disabled, he was schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, not a disability.

This is what the original story said:
Quote:
The 32-year-old man shot and killed by an off-duty police officer in a Costco store on Friday night in Corona was nonverbal and had an intellectual disability, according to a family member.

Kenneth French of Riverside lived with his parents and had the mental capacity of a teenager, said his cousin, Rick Shureih, in a phone interview with the Los Angeles Times on Sunday night.
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...616-story.html
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This is what the original story said:

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...616-story.html
The problem is the free exchange of the terms. He may be of low intelligence and schizophrenic, but schizophrenia is itself not a mental impairment.

Sorry, but it does irritate me when people use mental health terms ignorantly.
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:27 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This is what the original story said:

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...616-story.html
Reporter who most certainly knows eff all about mental infirmity reports a secondhand assessment from a layperson, and you think that means what, exactly?
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The problem is the free exchange of the terms. He may be of low intelligence and schizophrenic, but schizophrenia is itself not a mental impairment.

Sorry, but it does irritate me when people use mental health terms ignorantly.
Fair enough. Who actually said he's schizophrenic, and on what basis?
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:19 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Reporter who most certainly knows eff all about mental infirmity reports a secondhand assessment from a layperson, and you think that means what, exactly?
The layperson is a relative who actually knew the victim and his family, and who presumably at some point asked "What's wrong with him?" He might be wrong, but he's not just a random guy. And what makes you think a reporter can't know or learn at least as much as you do about "mental infirmity?"

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Old 19th June 2019, 09:21 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He wasn't mentally disabled, he was schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, not a disability.
I dunno. Wouldn't being psychotic be a disability, if a disability is defined as something that interferes with ordinary daily life as most people experience it?

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Old 19th June 2019, 09:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The problem is the free exchange of the terms. He may be of low intelligence and schizophrenic, but schizophrenia is itself not a mental impairment.

Sorry, but it does irritate me when people use mental health terms ignorantly.
It was also reported that he was "nonverbal". Is that not a disability?
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:00 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I dunno. Wouldn't being psychotic be a disability, if a disability is defined as something that interferes with ordinary daily life as most people experience it?
Psychosis is the state of being unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality. It is a symptom of a number of mental disorders, including schizophrenia, but on its own a symptom cannot be a disability.

The relationship between mental illness and disability is extremely complex, actually, and there are many who would argue that yes, a chronic mental disorder such as schizophrenia should be regarded as a disability, but there are others, including myself, who argue with equal vehemence that as long as they stick to an effective treatment programme, people with schizophrenia can live more or less unimpaired lives.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Fair enough. Who actually said he's schizophrenic, and on what basis?
The Washington Post did. Though on a re-read I note that it is not actually as clear as I initially thought.

Quote:
French, 32, of Riverside, lived with his parents and family members believe he suffered from schizophrenia, Galipo said. He had been taken off his medication due to other health complications, which may have affected his behavior Friday night, Galipo said.
Family members believe he suffered from schizophrenia. If he didn't have a formal diagnosis, we can't really trust what family members think.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It was also reported that he was "nonverbal". Is that not a disability?
Again, "nonverbal" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. Whatever diagnosis he did have - if he had any, see above - may be considered a disability, depending on who is doing the defining and for what purpose. From what I can tell with limited information, it's possible that he suffered from a number of separate mental disorders.
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