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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents , Texas cases

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Old 27th August 2019, 02:59 AM   #401
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
WRT your first paragraph:
Indeed. Firing a gun at someone is clearly an attempt to kill them, however, your timeline has her deciding to fire it before confronting Mr.Jean. That seems like an important distinction.
She may have done that, but there is little evidence to suggest that is the case.

WRT your second paragraph:

Primarily because it would seem to be an entirely legal killing if it were her apartment.

That she believed that it was, brings legal concepts into play meant to prevent someone who does something that is possibly illegal by mistake from always being considered criminals.
If the act would have been legal had she not been mistaken then one of the barriers to the application of that principle is eliminated.

Earlier,a poster pointed out that in the Oscar Pastorious incident whether or not he truly believed there was an intruder in his bathroom was essentially a moot point because even if there was he would still have been breaking the law by shooting through the door.

It seems that is not the case here, and if her assesment had been correct she would not have been breaking the law.

The water heater in her apartment springs a leak and starts flooding out the apartments below.

The property managers send in a plumber to stop the flooding. It's an emergency and they can't get in touch with her to make arrangements for the plumber's visit.

The plumber gets the leak stopped and sits down for a moment to rest.

She comes home, opens the door, and sees a stranger sitting in her apartment.

Quickly pulling out her handgun she shoots him ... twice ... killing him.

Is that an "entirely legal killing"?

If it is it shouldn't be.

On the feasibility side of this scenario, a clinic I go to in a small two story office building office had the water heater in the office upstairs spring a leak which ran overnight and flooded their downstairs office to the point that it took a couple of months for all the damage to be repaired enough for them to re-occupy it. They're moving back in tomorrow morning.

Into the upstairs office.

(I am not making this up. )
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:40 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
I believe there's more than a few cases where an assumption is made that someone was attempting to break into a house.
Only for it to be a friend of family member who was shot dead dead due to the mistake.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

Happens all the time.
Often with no charges brought.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:47 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

Happens all the time.
Often with no charges brought.
Jesus Goddamn Christ.

*Grabs you by the lapels and screams it right in your face*

IN... THEIR... HOMES... NOT... SOMEONE... ELSE'S.

You can't break into someone else's house, shoot them, and then claim you thought you were defending yourself from an intruder in your own home.

Stop trying to set precedence by citing cases where the core issue of this case isn't there. The fact that it wasn't here apartment isn't some minor side detail you can ignore to make a point.

And no it doesn't matter that she "thought" differently.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:50 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The water heater in her apartment springs a leak and starts flooding out the apartments below.

The property managers send in a plumber to stop the flooding. It's an emergency and they can't get in touch with her to make arrangements for the plumber's visit.

The plumber gets the leak stopped and sits down for a moment to rest.

She comes home, opens the door, and sees a stranger sitting in her apartment.

Quickly pulling out her handgun she shoots him ... twice ... killing him.

Is that an "entirely legal killing"?

If it is it shouldn't be.

On the feasibility side of this scenario, a clinic I go to in a small two story office building office had the water heater in the office upstairs spring a leak which ran overnight and flooded their downstairs office to the point that it took a couple of months for all the damage to be repaired enough for them to re-occupy it. They're moving back in tomorrow morning.

Into the upstairs office.

(I am not making this up. )
I agree that it should not be.

But it might be anyway, in some places.

I don't agree with the Designated Hitter. That does not mean an American League team is cheating when they put the extra batter in the lineup.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:53 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree that it should not be.

But it might be anyway, in some places.

I don't agree with the Designated Hitter. That does not mean an American League team is cheating when they put the extra batter in the lineup.
If the extra batter walks into the wrong game at the wrong stadium, it's cheating.

Oh wait I'm sorry it's not because "Mistake of fact."
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:16 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thought I was going to get read the riot act for doubling the 'r' in corral. Near miss, that
Now, now. The exchange was nowhere as heated as you imply.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:51 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

Happens all the time.
Often with no charges brought.
The fact that some local DA or sheriff decided to not bring charges is not at all instructive to the nature of the law. The person cited in your story could have easily been charged with some crime for this homicide, as others have been in the past. This says nothing about the letter of the law and a lot about the power of prosecutor discretion. Prosecutor discretion is not at issue because Guyger has been charged. Citing this other case is pointless.

One might wonder why the negligent killing of another is being treated as a "no harm, no foul" offence by the local police in that situation, but that's a matter for local politics.

Another example is hot car deaths of children. Sometimes parents are charged, sometimes not. The difference is prosecutor discretion, not the law.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:22 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I can personally guarantee you that it IS illegal to break into someone else's home and shoot them twice in Texas.
That is not in question.

However, It IS Legal to shoot someone in your own home, if you thought it was an intruder. As long as you stipulate that, then the jury will have some D-Liberatin' to do.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:24 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
That is not in question.

However, It IS Legal to shoot someone in your own home, if you thought it was an intruder. As long as you stipulate that, then the jury will have some D-Liberatin' to do.
*Sighs* Why do I even bother?
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:30 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
But she didn't fire the gun randomly. She fired it with a specific intent, and that intent was to kill someone.
Your mind-reading skills are amazing.

Do you think that a person facing an immediate threat is trying to neutralize the threat, or thinking they are killing a person?

The intent was to stop the threat in 'her' apartment.

The intent was not i'm going to kill this man in 'my' apartment.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:34 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Your mind-reading skills are amazing.

Do you think that a person facing an immediate threat is trying to neutralize the threat, or thinking they are killing a person?

The intent was to stop the threat in 'her' apartment.

The intent was not i'm going to kill this man in 'my' apartment.
Oh hogwash doublespeak nonsense. She didn't think her gun shot magical healing bullets. She's a cop she knows how bullets work.

Oh wait maybe it did since this broad's thoughts just recreated the reality around her so that she was in her apartment shooting at the scawwwy black man.

YOUR INTENT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A BLANK CHECK IF YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THE SITUATION YOU'RE IN.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:41 AM   #412
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So okay let me now sum up everything this chick was wrong about.

- That shooting bullets at someone will kill them
- What apartment she was in
- Whether or not the person in the apartment was armed/threatening

But the magical "Get out of murdering the black guy" card is that we have to just trust her judgement.

Here's a radical idea... no.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:43 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
That is not in question.

However, It IS Legal to shoot someone in your own home, if you thought it was an intruder. As long as you stipulate that, then the jury will have some D-Liberatin' to do.
(clears throat)

She wasn't in her own home.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:46 AM   #414
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**** why stop at "in her home."

"But it would be legal to shoot if she was in her home, protecting the Pope, and Jean was coming at her riding an armored Golden Tiger dual wielding mini-guns while high on angel dust."
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:05 AM   #415
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Okay let's try this from another angle.

Let's take the base facts.

Guyger enters the wrong apartment and shoots Jean twice. Jean was not armed or threatening Guyver.

So the question I pose to the Guyver apologist is... what would make YOU think that is a crime? But, and this is the important part, you can't refer to any internal state of mind of Guyver or change any of facts not in dispute. (i.e. no fan fiction, I know it's gonna be hard for some of you.)

Because if you can't answer that question you ARE defending Guyver and saying she is innocent regardless of your cries to the contrary.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:09 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay let's try this from another angle.

Let's take the base facts.

Guyger enters the wrong apartment and shoots Jean twice. Jean was not armed or threatening Guyver.

So the question I pose to the Guyver apologist is... what would make YOU think that is a crime? But, and this is the important part, you can't refer to any internal state of mind of Guyver or change any of facts not in dispute. (i.e. no fan fiction, I know it's gonna be hard for some of you.)

Because if you can't answer that question you ARE defending Guyver and saying she is innocent regardless of your cries to the contrary.
I think its probably good that Jean didnt shoot her dead, as then he could have been charged with murdering someone in their own apartment!
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:10 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Your mind-reading skills are amazing.

Do you think that a person facing an immediate threat is trying to neutralize the threat, or thinking they are killing a person?
A distinction without a difference. At the very least anyone that has a gun, let alone a police officer, should understand that the result of firing a gun at someone is commonly death. At the very least, as Darat said, they should understand they are using a lethal weapon. I don't have to read her mind. If she had no intent to kill him she could have used a non lethal weapon, tried asking questions instead of shooting, turned on the lights, retreated, evaluated the situation. There are a myriad of things she could have done, but didn't.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The intent was to stop the threat in 'her' apartment.
There was no threat, and that wasn't her apartment.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The intent was not i'm going to kill this man in 'my' apartment.
Now who's reading minds? At least don't be a hypocrite if you're going to call me out, eh?
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:11 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Your mind-reading skills are amazing.



Do you think that a person facing an immediate threat is trying to neutralize the threat, or thinking they are killing a person?



The intent was to stop the threat in 'her' apartment.



The intent was not i'm going to kill this man in 'my' apartment.
Unless she knew nothing about firearms then her decision to shoot at someone is the same as intentionally trying to kill someone. Guns are often known as lethal weapons for a reason.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:12 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think its probably good that Jean didnt shoot her dead, as then he could have been charged with murdering someone in their own apartment!
Why Darat surely you aren't suggesting that if the big scawwwy black man had shot the tiny widdle frail white lady cop when she burst through his door for no reason the apologist wouldn't be just as concerned with how tired he was and what he honestly believed at the moment and writing 80 pages of fan fiction across two threads where they role play as members of his legal defense team?

Surely you aren't suggesting such a thing....
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:48 AM   #420
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Quote:
The intent was to stop the threat in 'her' apartment.
I read this and roar as there was no one in her apartment.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:54 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
I read this and roar as there was no one in her apartment.
I love how airtight of a case the Guyver apologist have made for why it would have been perfectly okay for Jean to shoot Guyver which again makes the fact that we wouldn't be having this discussion if that is what had happened all the more distasteful.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:58 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think its probably good that Jean didnt shoot her dead, as then he could have been charged with murdering someone in their own apartment!
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:02 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The fact that some local DA or sheriff decided to not bring charges is not at all instructive to the nature of the law. The person cited in your story could have easily been charged with some crime for this homicide, as others have been in the past. This says nothing about the letter of the law and a lot about the power of prosecutor discretion. Prosecutor discretion is not at issue because Guyger has been charged. Citing this other case is pointless.

One might wonder why the negligent killing of another is being treated as a "no harm, no foul" offence by the local police in that situation, but that's a matter for local politics.

Another example is hot car deaths of children. Sometimes parents are charged, sometimes not. The difference is prosecutor discretion, not the law.
Guygers' case was sent to a Grand Jury.
It took three days to decide to indict.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:15 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay let's try this from another angle.

Let's take the base facts.

Guyger enters the wrong apartment and shoots Jean twice. Jean was not armed or threatening Guyver.

So the question I pose to the Guyver apologist is... what would make YOU think that is a crime? But, and this is the important part, you can't refer to any internal state of mind of Guyver or change any of facts not in dispute. (i.e. no fan fiction, I know it's gonna be hard for some of you.)

Because if you can't answer that question you ARE defending Guyver and saying she is innocent regardless of your cries to the contrary.
If the mistake of fact defense is allowed, then the defense will be presenting expert testimony that walking into the wrong apartment, after a long shift, was reasonable, the jury will be instructed that it is the defendant's state of mind that is at issue. If the jury decides that the mistake of fact was legitimate, and there was no intent to walk into a stranger's apartment and shoot the resident, then all murder charges are out.

If the jury accepts the Mistake of fact argument, then even negligence will be ruled out. If Mistake of fact accepted by jury, then, there is no mens rea, they will have to look at it as someone walking into their home, and encountering someone in the dark. That is not murder.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:16 AM   #425
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It may not be murder, but it's insane.

As Joe pointed out EVERY crime could be defended this way, so long as some tortuous fan-fic of reasonable state of mind can be weaved.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:19 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If the mistake of fact defense is allowed, then the defense will be presenting expert testimony that walking into the wrong apartment, after a long shift, was reasonable, the jury will be instructed that it is the defendant's state of mind that is at issue. If the jury decides that the mistake of fact was legitimate, and there was no intent to walk into a stranger's apartment and shoot the resident, then all murder charges are out.

If the jury accepts the Mistake of fact argument, then even negligence will be ruled out. If Mistake of fact accepted by jury, then, there is no mens rea, they will have to look at it as someone walking into their home, and encountering someone in the dark. That is not murder.
I didn't ask what the hypothetical jury you're role playing as a defense attorney in front in of in your self insert fan fiction thinks, I asked what you think.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:23 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If the mistake of fact defense is allowed, then the defense will be presenting expert testimony that walking into the wrong apartment, after a long shift, was reasonable, the jury will be instructed that it is the defendant's state of mind that is at issue. If the jury decides that the mistake of fact was legitimate, and there was no intent to walk into a stranger's apartment and shoot the resident, then all murder charges are out.

If the jury accepts the Mistake of fact argument, then even negligence will be ruled out. If Mistake of fact accepted by jury, then, there is no mens rea, they will have to look at it as someone walking into their home, and encountering someone in the dark. That is not murder.
You keep stating these things as fact after it's been explained to you multiple times that what you're saying isn't the way it works. At all.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:24 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Guygers' case was sent to a Grand Jury.
It took three days to decide to indict.
Source? By this do you mean it took 3 days to decide to indict or it took 3 days to present to the grand jury? I haven't seen a link to this.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:26 AM   #429
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"If a jury decides water isn't wet, then water isn't wet" isn't how the justice system A) works or B) should work no matter how much that it gets repeated.

And the "I'm not saying that I personally think water isn't wet, nosiree, but I'm going argue long and hard, past the point of sanity, of making sure everyone knows that I think if a jury says it that's just how it is" is also done, I'm done arguing against it. It's stupid and wrong and racist apologetics.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:11 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Guygers' case was sent to a Grand Jury.
It took three days to decide to indict.
The only mention of three days I see is that local authorities dragged their heels for three days after the killing before charging Guyger with manslaughter. The reluctance of police to hold their own accountable says very little about the strength of the case against Guyger.

A later Grand Jury returned an indictment for murder, though they had the option for returning a lesser charge or no charge at all. I see nothing to indicate that this was a legally difficult decision.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:16 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Source? By this do you mean it took 3 days to decide to indict or it took 3 days to present to the grand jury? I haven't seen a link to this.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...am-jeans-death

From the link:

"The attorneys were unsure why the grand jury proceedings had stretched over multiple days, but they took it as a sign that the district attorney's office was handling the case with "professionalism and seriousness," Merritt said.
"This has taken much longer than even the Jordan Edwards case, where there were more live witnesses," said Daryl Washington, another attorney for the family. "We don't know why it's taken this long, but the one thing that we hope that happens is the right decision comes out of this grand jury room.' "
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:22 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...am-jeans-death

From the link:

"The attorneys were unsure why the grand jury proceedings had stretched over multiple days, but they took it as a sign that the district attorney's office was handling the case with "professionalism and seriousness," Merritt said.
"This has taken much longer than even the Jordan Edwards case, where there were more live witnesses," said Daryl Washington, another attorney for the family. "We don't know why it's taken this long, but the one thing that we hope that happens is the right decision comes out of this grand jury room.' "
Ok, so they presented evidence for 3 days. It didn't take them 3 days to indict her.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:23 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...am-jeans-death

From the link:

"The attorneys were unsure why the grand jury proceedings had stretched over multiple days, but they took it as a sign that the district attorney's office was handling the case with "professionalism and seriousness," Merritt said.
"This has taken much longer than even the Jordan Edwards case, where there were more live witnesses," said Daryl Washington, another attorney for the family. "We don't know why it's taken this long, but the one thing that we hope that happens is the right decision comes out of this grand jury room.' "
It sounds unclear from the article you cited, but seems that the prosecutor was responsible for dragging out the Grand Jury proceedings for multiple days.

The Grand Jury only meets Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Evidence was presented on both Monday and Wednesday, and the Grand Jury returned an indictment for the most severe charge, murder, on Friday before midday. Guyger was in custody for murder by 1pm.

I don't see anything there to indicate uncertainty or fence-sitting to me.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:25 AM   #434
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Guys he's not going to drop it or get it. His entire world view has been rewritten around the core idea that this case is super complicated and full of legal grey area and nuance that legal experts are going to have to pour over in order to support his fantasy that some super-hero defense attorney is going to get the white woman who murdered to black guy off via some insane legal wrangling that only gets applied in this case.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:36 AM   #435
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I really don't think there would be all this discussion and legal controversy if Guyger hadn't been a cop. I don't know why exactly I think that, but I do. I'm just trying to imagine the scenario with a non-cop.

Amber is a bartender. She just worked a double shift, and it was a stressful one. She's very tired. Amber also has a concealed carry permit, and tends to carry her weapon with her when going home alone late at night. Because she is so tired, Amber accidentally walks into the wrong apartment upon arriving at her building. Believing the resident inside to be an intruder, she panics, draws her weapon, and shoots him.

Would anyone be defending Amber the bartender? I could be wrong, but I honestly don't think so. Amber the bartender would have gone straight to jail that night, and people would be calling her an idiot and chanting string her up.


ETA - My point being, Amber the bartender actually has more of an excuse to panic and be an idiot, if you think about it. She's a civilian, not trained to deal with these kinds of high-pressure situations at all. She carries the gun because she's afraid, on some level. So when panic-time arrives, untrained and unprepared Amber just starts shooting. But a ******* cop should know better. Yet Amber the bartender wouldn't have inspired so much lively discussion. Maybe a 3-4 page thread joking about her idiocy, speculating that she was drunk/high, and decrying the problems with citizens going around armed. That'd be about it.

Sorry if this was "fan fiction," but it's just what I think.

Last edited by isissxn; 27th August 2019 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:42 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Guys he's not going to drop it or get it. His entire world view has been rewritten around the core idea that this case is super complicated and full of legal grey area and nuance that legal experts are going to have to pour over in order to support his fantasy that some super-hero defense attorney is going to get the white woman who murdered to black guy off via some insane legal wrangling that only gets applied in this case.
Look at you trying to marginize Distracted1 and make his position sound silly and make it easier to attack. I think there's a term for that.

He has been pretty clear that Guyger was the bad actor, and it is screwed up that this could even happen, and that the assumed defense of mistake of fact is a travesty, as well as the whole idea that Yosemite Sams can justify gunning down other civiluans in their own cowardice.

But the legal argument is separate from that. Law is not about right and wrong. How this could play out under Texas law is an interesting discussion, even for those of us who think she should unquestionably be rotting in a cell as we speak. Stamp your feet all you want, but his take is likely how it will play out, or some variation of it, and honest discussion should not be twisted into catch phrase character assassination.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:44 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Would anyone be defending Amber the bartender?
If I'm being honest, I might actually be more prone to defend her if she were a bartender.

I would still, or at least I hope I would still, want her to be locked up. My reasoning is that Guyger has experience in these situations. Someone posted up thread that she had already shot and killed someone earlier that required her to be on leave. If you have experience in a situation then you should be able to handle a similar situation better than someone who has never had to be in that situation. If that makes sense.

Amber should have kept a better head about her throughout this entire thing. There isn't one individual aspect of this that she didn't screw up. Everything from driving home, to going to her apartment, to pulling her gun, etc., etc. Every step she did was wrong.

ETA: Didn't see the edit, I think you ninja'd me.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:46 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But the legal argument is separate from that. Law is not about right and wrong. How this could play out under Texas law is an interesting discussion, even for those of us who think she should unquestionably be rotting in a cell as we speak. Stamp your feet all you want, but his take is likely how it will play out, or some variation of it, and honest discussion should not be twisted into catch phrase character assassination.
I've seen absolutely zero evidence of that.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:47 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Would anyone be defending Amber the bartender?
Well, she's a fragile woman... is the guy she shot black? That's rather important, because then he might be doing drugs.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:51 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I really don't think there would be all this discussion and legal controversy if Guyger hadn't been a cop. I don't know why exactly I think that, but I do. I'm just trying to imagine the scenario with a non-cop.

Amber is a bartender. She just worked a double shift, and it was a stressful one. She's very tired. Amber also has a concealed carry permit, and tends to carry her weapon with her when going home alone late at night. Because she is so tired, Amber accidentally walks into the wrong apartment upon arriving at her building. Believing the resident inside to be an intruder, she panics, draws her weapon, and shoots him.

Would anyone be defending Amber the bartender? I could be wrong, but I honestly don't think so. Amber the bartender would have gone straight to jail that night, and people would be calling her an idiot and chanting string her up.


ETA - My point being, Amber the bartender actually has more of an excuse to panic and be an idiot, if you think about it. She's a civilian, not trained to deal with these kinds of high-pressure situations at all. She carries the gun because she's afraid, on some level. So when panic-time arrives, untrained and unprepared Amber just starts shooting. But a ******* cop should know better. Yet Amber the bartender wouldn't have inspired so much lively discussion. Maybe a 3-4 page thread joking about her idiocy, speculating that she was drunk/high, and decrying the problems with citizens going around armed. That'd be about it.

Sorry if this was "fan fiction," but it's just what I think.

WAG? I'd say for some people the fact that she was a cop means an assumption of professionalism and deference to her judgement in the case. Amber the bartender was just a trigger-happy redneck with no training looking to blow someone away. But if a cop went to the wrong apartment and shot the occupant, well there must have been something done to her to cause that mistaken entry and surely a cop wouldn't have shot someone without cause, so he must have done something to deserve, or at least cause, it.

I say this as someone with generally a strong pro-law enforcement bias. I think the fact that she was a cop has some people wondering what he did wrong to make her shoot, since she must have had a good (even if flawed) reason for her actions, her being a professional and all.

Personally I don't buy an inch of that reasoning.
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