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Tags Amber Guyger , Dallas incidents , murder cases , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents , Texas cases

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Old 26th August 2019, 05:35 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The intent to shoot was to stop an intruder in her apartment, this however was only able to happen because of the mistake of fact, of entering the wrong apartment.
That's why it all hinges on whether her initial mistake was reasonable. I find that it was not.

However, since there are several possibilities other than "intruder" in your own home when you're not there, and since the situation is reversed (you entering, the other person already there) I find it hard to support shooting EVEN IF she had been at the correct appartment.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:40 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The intent to shoot was to stop an intruder in her apartment, this however was only able to happen because of the mistake of fact, of entering the wrong apartment.
And again, for the 50th billionth time, this insane interpretation of "mistake of fact" undoes the very concept of a crime.

Nothing would be criminal in your insane world because everything could be countered with "well I thought the situation was different."

And as Belz said even this insanity hinges on the initial "mistake" being anywhere near reasonable which is most certainly wasn't.

And, for the like 500th billionth time, I wanna know where all the "Mistake of fact" fetishists are at when a black guy shoots a cop executing a no-knock warrant.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:43 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

"Investigators are saying the incident is being treated as an accident, and no charges are being filed"

So, no.
Choosing not to charge is not evidence that the killing was lawful. Prosecutors have wide discretion.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:44 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's why it all hinges on whether her initial mistake was reasonable. I find that it was not.

However, since there are several possibilities other than "intruder" in your own home when you're not there, and since the situation is reversed (you entering, the other person already there) I find it hard to support shooting EVEN IF she had been at the correct appartment.
Not being "in support" of something is different from asserting that that same thing is a crime though, no?

I don't support "shoot first", but in some places it seems it is a legal act.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:51 AM   #325
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Again this "I'm not supporting her, I'm just role playing as a member of her legal defense team" thing is getting stale.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:53 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not being "in support" of something is different from asserting that that same thing is a crime though, no?
Well, you're in luck, then. Unless you can legally shoot someone dead, it's a crime.
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:54 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, you're in luck, then. Unless you can legally shoot someone dead, it's a crime.
Did you read my link from a few posts ago?
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:55 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Did you read my link from a few posts ago?
Instead of playing 50 questions, how about you make a point?
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Old 26th August 2019, 05:58 AM   #329
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Blasted through a crosswalk on the way to work today and ran over 6 kids. Cops had to let me go because I told them my boss made me stay an hour late last night and I was a bit sleepy.

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Old 26th August 2019, 05:58 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Blasted through a crosswalk on the way to work today and ran over 6 kids. Cops had to let me go because I told them my boss made me stay an hour late last night and I was a bit sleepy.
Plus you thought they were rabid ducks, so it's all ok.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:01 AM   #331
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I see a solution here. The judge just orders the bailiff the shoot the woman in the head during the trial, and then claims he was sleepy.

Jesus Christ this is inane. Damn near every 3 days for 20 years someone would come to my bed, wake me up in the middle of the night for the specific purpose of getting a gun and walking around outside while exhausted.

The "BUT SHE WAS AWAKE TOOOOOOOOO LONG" is intellectually and morally insulting.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:02 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Plus you thought they were rabid ducks, so it's all ok.
You weren't there man. The way the sunlight was hitting them, they looked like ducks. No one can impugn my lived experience as unreasonable.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:05 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Instead of playing 50 questions, how about you make a point?
You made the claim that one cannot shoot someone dead without committing a crime.
The post is a recent example of that very thing occurring. Directly refuting your claim.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:06 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You made the claim that one cannot shoot someone dead without committing a crime.
The post is a recent example of that very thing occurring. Directly refuting your claim.
You can't shoot someone dead WITHOUT GOOD REASON and it not be a crime.

"But I've been awake... like literally the exact same amount of time as any other working adult" is nowhere near any sane person's version of a good reason.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:07 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You made the claim that one cannot shoot someone dead without committing a crime.
Quote me.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:14 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can't shoot someone dead WITHOUT GOOD REASON and it not be a crime.

"But I've been awake... like literally the exact same amount of time as any other working adult" is nowhere near any sane person's version of a good reason.
The reason in the link was that the woman was killed entering her own home because the shooter mistook her identity.
That mistake of fact seems to make the killing an accident- not a crime.

Unless, you think that the sherrif is referring to the act of discharging the gun as the "accident".
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:18 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The reason in the link was that the woman was killed entering her own home because the shooter mistook her identity.
That mistake of fact seems to make the killing an accident- not a crime.

Unless, you think that the sherrif is referring to the act of discharging the gun as the "accident".
I don't care. You're not actually a member of this woman's legal defense team not matter how deep in character you've gotten and this isn't a court room, it's a discussion. You can't win by setting precedent that's only vaguely related.

We're not saying nothing can ever not be a crime because of an initial "mistake of fact" where saying THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT wasn't a reasonable "mistake of fact" and consequences thereoff. Do NOT quote another case about "mistake of fact" at us UNLESS THEY ARE ACTUALLY COMPARABLE.

Also, and I'm going to keep grabbing you by the lapels and screaming this into your face into you get it... IT WAS NOT HER ******* HOME.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:18 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quote me.
You in post #326: "Unless you can legally shoot someone dead, it's a crime"

My post demonstrates that one can shoot someone dead legally.

Your assertion, by your own reasoning, then becomes " it is not a crime ".
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:23 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The intent to shoot was to stop an intruder in her apartment, this however was only able to happen because of the mistake of fact, of entering the wrong apartment.



An example: A driver of an armored vehicle is told that anything on Hill 225 is a hostile enemy. But due to lack of sleep, the armored vehicle crew has placed their sights on a nearby hill 221, a vehicle appears, the first vehicle fires a round striking what they thought was an enemy vehicle. They intended to blow up the vehicle, but made a mistake of fact on the target area.



This would still be an accident, despite the intent of shooting the vehicle.
Nope. The intent to shoot was to kill someone.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:26 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's why it all hinges on whether her initial mistake was reasonable. I find that it was not.



However, since there are several possibilities other than "intruder" in your own home when you're not there, and since the situation is reversed (you entering, the other person already there) I find it hard to support shooting EVEN IF she had been at the correct appartment.
Nope. Her original mistake was thinking she was at her apartment. There has not been one jot of evidence that she wasn't trying to kill Jean by quite deliberately deciding to pull her gun from its holster, take aim, shoot and then take aim again and fire again.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:30 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Blasted through a crosswalk on the way to work today and ran over 6 kids. Cops had to let me go because I told them my boss made me stay an hour late last night and I was a bit sleepy.

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Or, your mind was elsewhere and you mistakenly didn't think you were at a crosswalk. Therefore you made a "mistake of fact" so you have a defence against any claims of unlawful killing.

As JoeM says this is ludicrous because all anyone would ever do is make a claim for a " mistake of fact" and lo and behold you won't be prosecuted because all you did was make a mistake.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:32 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care. You're not actually a member of this woman's legal defense team not matter how deep in character you've gotten and this isn't a court room, it's a discussion. You can't win by setting precedent that's only vaguely related.

We're not saying nothing can ever not be a crime because of an initial "mistake of fact" where saying THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT wasn't a reasonable "mistake of fact" and consequences thereoff. Do NOT quote another case about "mistake of fact" at us UNLESS THEY ARE ACTUALLY COMPARABLE.

Also, and I'm going to keep grabbing you by the lapels and screaming this into your face into you get it... IT WAS NOT HER ******* HOME.
Yet, as recently as post #322, you are claiming what seems to amount to:
"a world where mistaking facts can be exculpatory is 'insane', because then every crime can be negated by claiming it was a mistake".

You roll that back in post #337, claiming that sometimes "mistake of fact" can be exculpatory.

IMO, that is progress.
Can we agree, at least, that sometimes what might under other circumstances would be criminal is not due to the principle of mistake of fact?
And, further, that accepting that principle as a valid one does not create some kind of crazy world where "I can just shoot anyone I like and then walk because I can claim I was mistaken"?
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:33 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yet, as recently as post #322, you are claiming what seems to amount to:
"a world where mistaking facts can be exculpatory is 'insane', because then every crime can be negated by claiming it was a mistake".
Again dude you're not in a courtroom, don't play lawyer games with me.

You know the difference, don't play stupid. There's no jury you're impressing with it.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:34 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The reason in the link was that the woman was killed entering her own home because the shooter mistook her identity.
That mistake of fact seems to make the killing an accident- not a crime.

Unless, you think that the sherrif is referring to the act of discharging the gun as the "accident".
There is a big difference, the shooter mistook someone entering the property.

Guyver first mistook the property, then mistook the person in the property for a home invader then mistook him for a threat.

But she had been sleepy, so that's allright.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:34 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. Her original mistake was thinking she was at her apartment. There has not been one jot of evidence that she wasn't trying to kill Jean by quite deliberately deciding to pull her gun from its holster, take aim, shoot and then take aim again and fire again.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

When the authorities in the linked episode decided to treat it as an "accident", do you think they are referring to the act of firing the gun (as in, not intending to pull the trigger) or are they perhaps referring to the choice of target?
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:36 AM   #346
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I feel like we had this whole conversation about Oscar Pistorius. The conclusion was even if he was telling the truth about believing there was an intruder in his toilet, it would still be murder to shoot that person through the toilet door. So his "defence" was no defence at all.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:38 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Can we agree, at least, that sometimes what might under other circumstances would be criminal is not due to the principle of mistake of fact?
And, further, that accepting that principle as a valid one does not create some kind of crazy world where "I can just shoot anyone I like and then walk because I can claim I was mistaken"?
No, not in the frame and context you've already driven the discussion it.

We're talking a situation that is absurd piled on absurd. She walked into the wrong apartment and shot the unarmed person sitting there... twice.

No. Question of nuance and grey area and "sometimes" lamb bleating do not belong here.

That's why I keep asking what would be a crime in your insane hypothetical worldview because if this isn't, I don't know what could be.

That's why I didn't bite your "Ah but you said a mistake could make something a crime here but said not here AHA GOTCHA!" inanity.

In any sane world, yes. In your world where "Slightly sleepy cop executes black man in his own home" is questionable, no.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:46 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
https://abcnews.go.com/US/michigan-m...ry?id=64317617

When the authorities in the linked episode decided to treat it as an "accident", do you think they are referring to the act of firing the gun (as in, not intending to pull the trigger) or are they perhaps referring to the choice of target?
No idea and not at all interested in the initial reaction apart from what it indicates about how police officers are investigated.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:46 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I feel like we had this whole conversation about Oscar Pistorius. The conclusion was even if he was telling the truth about believing there was an intruder in his toilet, it would still be murder to shoot that person through the toilet door. So his "defence" was no defence at all.
And, in that situation, it would still have been a crime because that is illegal where it occurred. The same act, in Dallas Tx, is quite possibly not illegal.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:47 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No idea and not at all interested in the initial reaction apart from what it indicates about how police officers are investigated.
The shooter was not a police officer.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:48 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And, in that situation, it would still have been a crime because that is illegal where it occurred. The same act, in Dallas Tx, is quite possibly not illegal.
I can personally guarantee you that it IS illegal to break into someone else's home and shoot them twice in Texas.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:49 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No, not in the frame and context you've already driven the discussion it.

We're talking a situation that is absurd piled on absurd. She walked into the wrong apartment and shot the unarmed person sitting there... twice.

No. Question of nuance and grey area and "sometimes" lamb bleating do not belong here.

That's why I keep asking what would be a crime in your insane hypothetical worldview because if this isn't, I don't know what could be.

That's why I didn't bite your "Ah but you said a mistake could make something a crime here but said not here AHA GOTCHA!" inanity.

In any sane world, yes. In your world where "Slightly sleepy cop executes black man in his own home" is questionable, no.
This thread is not about what happens in "my hypothetical world" as much as it is about what did happen in Dallas.
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:50 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I can personally guarantee you that it IS illegal to break into someone else's home and shoot them twice in Texas.
What if you're a First Class Citizen?
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Old 26th August 2019, 06:50 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
This thread is not about what happens in "my hypothetical world" as much as it about what did happen in Dallas.
Okay. She entered someone else's house and made the conscious decision to shoot an unarmed, nonthreatening person twice.

These are the facts and they are not in dispute.

That's it. There's nothing else to discuss.

The second you go "Okay but she thought..." we are in your hypothetical world.
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Old 26th August 2019, 07:21 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
My post demonstrates that one can shoot someone dead legally.
So does mine. That was my whole ******* point.
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Old 26th August 2019, 07:23 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. Her original mistake was thinking she was at her apartment. There has not been one jot of evidence that she wasn't trying to kill Jean by quite deliberately deciding to pull her gun from its holster, take aim, shoot and then take aim again and fire again.
What do you mean "nope"? Where are we disagreeing, exactly?
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Old 26th August 2019, 07:51 AM   #357
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I don't believe this was premeditated, I think someone asked me that in the earlier pages (I just caught up now), but I can't remember whom.

I think she was negligent on multiple occasions and her negligence led to the death of an innocent man. As others have posted here, even if she thought she was in the wrong apartment, it doesn't give her the right to shoot him.

I personally believe that her negligence was on display long before entering the apartment. I've stated the multiple, in some case literal, signs that she had to have missed or ignored to get to the point of opening that door.

The only reason her being a cop is relevant to me is that I don't believe she would have been armed otherwise. Which would have led to this whole situation being avoided. That's not the case, however, she is\was a cop. Being a cop enabled her to be armed, being armed led her to having the ability to shoot a man for absolutely no reason.

She belongs in prison for murder.
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:03 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So does mine. That was my whole ******* point.
My apologies. I saw sarcasm where it did not exist.
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:08 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
My apologies. I saw sarcasm where it did not exist.
Well, let's move on, then: Of course, killing someone, unless you have a good reason to, is a crime. So since this is the case on this specific topic, absent a good reason, she committed a crime. So when you said:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not being "in support" of something is different from asserting that that same thing is a crime though, no?
In this case, yeah, if I don't support her decision to shoot, it's because I think she committed a crime.
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Old 26th August 2019, 08:20 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, let's move on, then: Of course, killing someone, unless you have a good reason to, is a crime.
Not exactly. If you conclude from the available information that you have good reason, then it's not necessarily a crime, even it it turns out that you were working with faulty or incomplete information.

Someone who takes reasonable steps to be well-informed, and makes a reasonable decision based on that information, isn't committing a crime even if the information turns out to be wrong.

And even when a crime is committed, the crime in question will depend on what exactly they did. Not taking reasonable steps to be well informed is negligence, not murder.

While Guyger did probably intend to kill the man (in a technically correct is the worst kind of correct sort of way), I don't think it's murder. Not unless she knew it was his apartment, knew he wasn't a threat, and intended to kill him anyway.
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