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Tags Boston incidents , Kyle Chapman , Mark Sahady , white nationalists

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Old 5th September 2019, 10:08 AM   #481
Thermal
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Woah, where'd those goalposts go?!

So now you don't want us to paint all Nazi's and White Supremacists with the same brush? We have to differentiate them in our conversation?

Your initial claim is still that current day Nazi's don't support genocide. When faced with insurmountable proof that they do support genocide you've now changed to "I just meant different factions of Nazis and White Supremacists."

You're still making excuses, and it's so transparent it would be funny if it weren't so sad. That person became a genocidal murderer because he was radicalized and filled with hate by Nazism and White Supremacy ideals. Those ideals led him to want to wipe out Jews. There is none, zero, nada evidence that he would have killed anyone if not introduced to those ideals, which, again, encourage genocide of people.
No dude. No. This exchange started with Darat saying that a guy wanted to kill him and millions of others. I have been pointing out that they are not all genocidal monsters. Some (the majority as I am seeing) are not.

What's with you today?
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:15 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No dude. No. This exchange started with Darat saying that a guy wanted to kill him and millions of others. I have been pointing out that they are not all genocidal monsters. Some (the majority as I am seeing) are not.

What's with you today?
Absolutely nothing, same as every day.

The way I read it, he said common day nazi's wanted to kill him. Which they do, can we agree on that? If not, what part is wrong?
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:17 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Reasonable. What you've said makes sense.

Let me frame this a different way. We've already, as a country, agreed that racism is not welcome here, right? We did away with slavery, Jim Crow, made race protected by the Constitution, etc. We are actively taking steps as a society against racism.

So why do we let people espouse that type of hate speech? In that sense, doesn't it seem contrary to the goal? What would we be losing if we were to not allow that speech? Now I don't believe I or Darat, he can correct me if I'm wrong, feel that any speak we don't like should be outlawed. I truly don't think that's the case.

However I, maybe not Darat, do not have any issue with this type of speech being added to a hate speech list. White Supremacists are already added to the Domestic Terrorism list, as we all know. So why can't their propaganda be outlawed the same as other terrorist speech?
Depends on how you define "we". While the arc of history has been towards the inclusion of more people under the protection of equal rights, there remains a substantial core of die hard racists, and these people are as much a part of America as anything else. They have suffered many defeats, but are far from vanquished. I doubt that they ever will be truly purged from American society.

Do EU style hate speech laws actually do anything? The EU is having quite a time with their own home grown right wing ethnonationalists, and I don't see hate speech laws doing much to stop them. Sure, people might have to hide their cards, but you can't force the ideas from their head. Here were have open nazis, there they have thinly veiled nazis. Seems like a wash to me.

Hate speech laws seem to be largely ineffective when moderates are in control, and will almost certainly be abused when radicals are in control. Seems like a bad deal to me.

The AFD is doing quite well in Germany. They know to play coy about a few certain taboo ideas to remain in compliance with German hate speech laws, but they are biding their time. Should they ever seize power, these laws will be worthless.

Hate speech laws strike me as a misguided effort. It's a paper shield.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:26 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not openly claim, then. Demystify that for ya?
Yes. Now, perhaps you will agree that not openly claiming something in no way equates to denying that thing. In the absence of a denial the default is to assume they follow the historic tenets of the organization they claim to follow. Historically Nazis were in favor of genocide of peoples they decided were undesirable. Modern day Nazis are in favor of the same.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:30 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. I'm a fan of America's founding fathers. Not a fan of slaveholding, denying women rights, etc.

You think a fan of Jefferson's writing must endorse him in toto till proven otherwise? Harsh bro
Fan Club ≠ Fan

The thing someone is most known for ≠ everything they do and believe.


If Jefferson WAS most well known for keeping slaves, I'd expect an official Jefferson fan club to repudiate that that's not the part of his history they're fans of.

If the general feeling of the membership of the Ah Ha! fanclub was a dislike of the song "Take on me". I would find it surprising.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Depends on how you define "we". While the arc of history has been towards the inclusion of more people under the protection of equal rights, there remains a substantial core of die hard racists, and these people are as much a part of America as anything else. They have suffered many defeats, but are far from vanquished. I doubt that they ever will be truly purged from American society.
But can we agree that America, as a whole, do not condone or encourage their behavior? It is not acceptable. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'll never deny they exist, but they're abhorred by the general public, yeah?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do EU style hate speech laws actually do anything? The EU is having quite a time with their own home grown right wing ethnonationalists, and I don't see hate speech laws doing much to stop them. Sure, people might have to hide their cards, but you can't force the ideas from their head. Here were have open nazis, there they have thinly veiled nazis. Seems like a wash to me.
I would say so. They don't have white supremacists killing people in the single or double digits on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hate speech laws seem to be largely ineffective when moderates are in control, and will almost certainly be abused when radicals are in control. Seems like a bad deal to me.
I would have to disagree here. It would be extremely hard to prove either way because even if we compare the countries with those laws to the US, our lack of gun control changes the game.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The AFD is doing quite well in Germany. They know to play coy about a few certain taboo ideas to remain in compliance with German hate speech laws, but they are biding their time. Should they ever seize power, these laws will be worthless.

Hate speech laws strike me as a misguided effort. It's a paper shield.
Would you say that the AFD would be more or less influential if weren't for the country's hate speech laws? It sounds like you're saying they have to change their hate speech because of the laws, and that would imply to me that the laws are working. The party hasn't risen to power like, say, a racist ass POTUS, because of those laws.
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Last edited by plague311; 5th September 2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:43 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
But can we agree that America, as a whole, do not condone or encourage their behavior? It is not acceptable. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'll never deny they exist, but they're abhorred by the general public, yeah?
I would say that it really depends. There is certainly a culture of anti-racism, and people generally know to keep their racist ideas quiet in the general public. It certainly seems to me that the general consensus is much weaker than it had been previously. More people are willing to let their bigot flags fly, to my eye.



Quote:
I would say so. They don't have white supremacists killing people in the single or double digits on a regular basis.



I would have to disagree here. It would be extremely hard to prove either way because even if we compare the countries with those laws to the US, our lack of gun control changes the game.
The amount of guns and general propensity of violence in the US are a big uncontrolled variable. I would agree that our violence problem is much worse, but it's hard to make comparisons.


Quote:
Would you say that the AFD would be more or less influential if weren't for the country's hate speech laws? It sounds like you're saying they have to change their hate speech because of the laws, and that would imply to me that the laws are working. The party hasn't risen to power like, say, a racist ass POTUS, because of those laws.
I don't know. Is it worse to have a racist demagogue, or a racist party. It's a bizarre situation for sure. Would Trumpism continue without Trump? Wish I could say. it is entirely possible that Trump, and the alt-right, have passed a zenith in their popularity somewhere in these last few years and we are just running out the clock of Trump's term. Parliamentary systems seem more responsive in that way, with the POTUS we just have to wait for each 4 year election to see the results.

AfD isn't hampered by hate speech laws would be my read. They can't say certain things, but they can still coalesce and organize as a force for hateful policies. Everyone knows what they are, even if they can't chant it in the streets, and they are still popular enough to worry about.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yet they openly do not claim to endorse genocide. The burden falls back on you to demonstrate that they do. That others used to, or you really think so, does not suffice.
I am accepting what they claim i.e. that they are Nazis. You are the one saying they are Nazis but don't follow Nazism.

It's entirely up to you to provide the evidence for your quite remarkable claim, i.e. that Nazism has undergone a revolution this century and no longer follows the ideology it had for a hundred years!
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
To all: I think you are giving these phallically challenged losers far too much credit. Looking at them as a whole, I don't think most have the balls to argue with a traffic cop, much less kill anyone. All talk.

...snip...
And I think this is where you are showing you haven't learnt from history. Go and look into the history of the Nazis, people were describing them exactly as you are now. It took them 30 years to get into power. And then millions and millions of lives lost and destroyed by years of warfare to stop them.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am accepting what they claim i.e. that they are Nazis. You are the one saying they are Nazis but don't follow Nazism.

It's entirely up to you to provide the evidence for your quite remarkable claim, i.e. that Nazism has undergone a revolution this century and no longer follows the ideology it had for a hundred years!
Not a revolution. One was squelched decisively. Another has picked up some of its ideology and symbols. There is no continuity.

Do you guys get so hyper literal if someone is called a cowboy?
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:05 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And I think this is where you are showing you haven't learnt from history. Go and look into the history of the Nazis, people were describing them exactly as you are now. It took them 30 years to get into power. And then millions and millions of lives lost and destroyed by years of warfare to stop them.
And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now. Some chump on a street corner who is all talk (think that Val guy) is not a political power rising to world domination, either. In taking bets.

Posers and the insincere edgelords are a thing. You don't accept that. I do. And I won't be scared of some impotent yepper on the streetcorner
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now.
Yep, if history shows anything, it's that the world learns i's lessons about preventing totalitarianism and genocide.

That's why the Holocaust was the last genocide... wait it wasn't?
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:07 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now. Some chump on a street corner who is all talk (think that Val guy) is not a political power rising to world domination, either. In taking bets.

Posers and the insincere edgelords are a thing. You don't accept that. I do. And I won't be scared of some impotent yepper on the streetcorner
That must be really nice for you. Which one of the race\cultures\ethnicity do you belong to that were targeted by Nazi's that you claim no longer exist?
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:40 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And we have the benefit of that historical hindsight now. Some chump on a street corner who is all talk (think that Val guy) is not a political power rising to world domination, either. In taking bets.

I seem to recall much the same being said about the Nazis. Just a bunch of street thugs, nothing to worry about, they couldn't possible gain a significant amount of power.

Until they did.

Quote:
Posers and the insincere edgelords are a thing.

So are honest-to-goodness full-blown-neo-Nazis pretending to be poseur and insincere edgelords in order to maintain plausible deniability and create discord in their opponents' ranks.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daily...b0ce3b344492f2

Excerpt:
Quote:
Remember this style guide the next time an alt-righter says something so hammily outrageous that you begin to doubt its sincerity. This is by design. The Daily Stormer and other groups like it want you to be unsure if you should take them seriously. Andrew Anglin wants you to think he’s just a troll, that he’s spouting incendiary crap for no other reason than to get a rise out of you. Remember that the irony and the coy misdirection are all in service of tricking people into following him on his path toward a white supremacist state. This is what he believes.

If you're treating them as "Posers" and "insincere edgelords", then congratulations, you're playing right along and being a good little useful idiot.

Quote:
And I won't be scared of some impotent yepper on the streetcorner

My friends and myself having been the target of verbal and physical assaults from "some impotent yepper on the streetcorner" in the past simply for being who were were and looking a certain way, I know better than to dismiss them as not a threat. Must be nice not to have to worry about that, bless your heart.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:16 PM   #495
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Don't suppose people could explain why a bunch of nationalistic focused, racist, wannabe Nazis in the US, who have probably never been out of their own state, let alone country, want to kill Darat in the UK?
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Don't suppose people could explain why a bunch of nationalistic focused, racist, wannabe Nazis in the US, who have probably never been out of their own state, let alone country, want to kill Darat in the UK?
They object to his lifestyle. Where Darat lives is not really relevant. They would like to see him dead regardless of his location. It is a basic tenet of the organization they belong to.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
They object to his lifestyle. Where Darat lives is not really relevant. They would like to see him dead regardless of his location. It is a basic tenet of the organization they belong to.

That "Why would they want to kill him since they don't know him" comment is actually a really bizarre and profoundly stupid objection, TBH. How many of the millions of Jews, Roma, LGBTQs, Slavs, and developmentally disabled people that were killed in the Holocaust did Hitler or Eichmann or any of the other Nazi party leadership know personally? It's not even like the majority of them were even Germans; but were citizens of lands that were not even part of Nazi Germany until the Nazis invaded.

Worse, Hitler and the Nazi leadership applauded the persecution of Jews by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini. Hitler personally met with al-Husseini to strategize the murder of Jews and the elimination of the nascent Jewish homeland established by the British during the post-WWI partitioning. Hitler also committed to working with other sympathetic nations in Europe and around the world in dealing with their "Jewish Problem".

https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/

That's the problem with Nazi and white supremacist ideology; it's about far more than just separatism. It cannot be fully satisfied as long as any "inferior" people still exist. It's fundamental character is the most black-and-white "for us or against us" way of thinking, which cannot tolerate even the mere existence of anyone that does not fit into its highly-restrictive view of humanity. Modern neo-Nazism has not lost that, they've just gotten better about disguising it and coding it with dogwhistles; cf. the article I lined in an earlier post.

And, of course, as noted it wasn't just Jews, LGBTQ people were also considered subhuman or irretrievably mentally ill, and either way suitable for "cleansing" to avoid contamination of the "master race".
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 5th September 2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #498
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If some random guy calls himself a Muslim, I'm going to assume that he thinks Mohammad was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If some random guy calls himself a Nazi, I'm going to assume that he thinks Hitler was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If anyone has a problem with either of the above inferences, then have at it.
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Old 5th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Don't suppose people could explain why a bunch of nationalistic focused, racist, wannabe Nazis in the US, who have probably never been out of their own state, let alone country, want to kill Darat in the UK?
Nazis are not limited to the USA, we have them in this country as well.
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Old 5th September 2019, 01:56 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
If some random guy calls himself a Muslim, I'm going to assume that he thinks Mohammad was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If some random guy calls himself a Nazi, I'm going to assume that he thinks Hitler was a pretty cool and admirable dude.

If anyone has a problem with either of the above inferences, then have at it.
Yeah, but that's only because you used logic to reach that conclusion.
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Old 5th September 2019, 02:06 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nazis are not limited to the USA, we have them in this country as well.

No, that's not right, you're violating American Exceptionalism. Only Americans have Nazis. We have all the Nazis, the, yeah, the best Nazis. Other countries can only wish they had Nazis like ours, they're really great...

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, but that's only because you used logic to reach that conclusion.

Logic has no place in politics.
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
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Old 5th September 2019, 02:12 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No, that's not right, you're violating American Exceptionalism. Only Americans have Nazis. We have all the Nazis, the, yeah, the best Nazis. Other countries can only wish they had Nazis like ours, they're really great...




Logic has no place in politics.
Or, perhaps, in New Zealand?
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Old 5th September 2019, 03:34 PM   #503
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I've only skimmed the thread, was there blood?
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Old 5th September 2019, 03:38 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I've only skimmed the thread, was there blood?
unt soil, too, but don't jump to any conclusions about that.
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Old 5th September 2019, 05:02 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dude, my point is to not paint everyone with the same brush. They are not nearly so homogeneous as you and others think.

Some are genuinely bad news. Some are posers. Posers are a real thing. People like Darat equate the posers with the synagogue shooter. That's doing a disservice to the whole discussion. And it will shut down all possible communication to marginalize a dumb kid as a genocidal murderer. Keep it in perspective or no one wins.

Everyone has to start somewhere.

The very essence of being a "poser" is admiration for what is being posed. It's the first step on the journey.

Why do you seem to imply it is one they would not continue if given the opportunity and support by others of similar mien? They are demonstrating that inclination already.

These "posers" you dismiss so facilely are different only in degree from the more dedicated bigots they wish to emulate. That isn't as reassuring as you appear to believe it is.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:04 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I've only skimmed the thread, was there blood?
Apparently based on a stupid wind up about being pro straight march in the US, some posters who don't live in the US think a small group of wannabe Nazi's want to invade their country and kill them because of their lifestyle.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:25 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Yep, if history shows anything, it's that the world learns i's lessons about preventing totalitarianism and genocide.

That's why the Holocaust was the last genocide... wait it wasn't?
The US does not control the planet. We barely keep ourselves together. Pol Pots will come and go, as monsters have throughout history.

But we are talking here about the little bitch on the streetcorner, not world leaders. Some posters here equate them. I don't.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:27 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That must be really nice for you. Which one of the race\cultures\ethnicity do you belong to that were targeted by Nazi's that you claim no longer exist?
...wut?

I said I'm not quaking in my boots about a Jovi Val prick on a streetcorner. You respond by asking...what race/culture....targeted by Nazis...

Nevermind.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:56 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...wut?

I said I'm not quaking in my boots about a Jovi Val prick on a streetcorner. You respond by asking...what race/culture....targeted by Nazis...

Nevermind.

Must be nice to have all that straight white cismale privilege, and not have to worry about some drunk Proud Boy or Aryan Nations prick and his buddies decide to walk up and kick the **** out of you because you're too black, hispanic, queer, etc. in "his" part of town.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...113-story.html
https://www.them.us/story/anti-lgbtq...re-on-the-rise
https://www.adl.org/new-hate-and-old
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...estic-n1039206
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...r-report-says/
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:13 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I seem to recall much the same being said about the Nazis. Just a bunch of street thugs, nothing to worry about, they couldn't possible gain a significant amount of power.

Until they did.
So you are continuing with this thing about every teenager with a Pepe t-shirt being a genocidal murderer? Sorry, I'm going to be confident that the sky is not falling. Not in that way, anyhow.


Quote:
So are honest-to-goodness full-blown-neo-Nazis pretending to be poseur and insincere edgelords in order to maintain plausible deniability and create discord in their opponent's ranks.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daily...b0ce3b344492f2

Excerpt:
Yes, you've posted that many times. Many. Times. You've probably given it more reading and publicity than anyone else. But you know that Andrew Anglin cat? He's a schmuck. A nobody giving inane writing advice to nobody. Read the articles on his website: his own submitters do not seem to have read his tripe. Basically, no one on the planet gives him any credibility at all. Except you. Swish that around a bit. To everyone else, he's a nothing, a cockroach at best. To you, he is a powerhouse leader. Why, dude?Why???

Quote:
If you're treating them as "Posers" and "insincere edgelords", then congratulations, you're playing right along and being a good little useful idiot.
You had me worried for a minute, there. I thought you were interested in honest discussion. But no, here comes the famous luchog insults, firmly closing the door on anything productive. Betcha close with something pointlessly hateful. We'll see.

Regarding your point, though: no. I don't read their tripe so I am not influenced one way or the other. I see what they do, and that suffices for me. Is the Daily Stormer taking over the mainstream media? A place in the Press Corps? Whatever Andrew Annikin was pushing, it didn't work. No one cared. Except you.


Quote:
My friends and myself having been the target of verbal and physical assaults from "some impotent yepper on the streetcorner" in the past simply for being who were were and looking a certain way, I know better than to dismiss them as not a threat.
Lots to unpack here. First off, you were subject to verbal abuse for being what you are? You ain't the Lone Ranger by anyone's standards. Welcome to the ******* club.

Physical assaults for being who you are and looking a certain way? Again, why do you think you alone should be exempt from that? I've been physically assaulted by every skin color on the freaking palate for one reason or another. Being white in a black sandwich shop. Dating a black girl. Being in the wrong neighborhood. Being a metalhead in college prep classes. Being one of exactly two long haired guys in my entire freaking high school (and we didn't like each other either). Having both skinheads and preppies calling me a n-lover and getting physical over it. Cry me a river, luchog. You're not entitled to better treatment than the rest of us. Some people suck. Always have, always will. Welcome to the human condition.

eta: yes, even the streetcorner yapper can be a physical threat. There's lots of physical threats out there. If you find the keys to Shangri-La where we can all live n harmony singing kumbaya, give me a shout. till then, I'm expecting physical threats from a lot of different people.

Quote:
Must be nice not to have to worry about that, bless your heart.
Ah, here it comes. Yeah, I've never had to worry about that. You know me so well, oh Wise One. And bless y'all's heart to, darlin. With a chainsaw.

But we've been through this before. Let me try yet again to throw up a Hail Mary:

Hi luchog. I'm Thermal. Hey, I see from your postings here that you have a deep resentment of violent bigots. I hear you, and hate them to the bone myself. But your approach seems to take some schmuck surf nazi and glorify his position, and actually push him away, and further into the fold that we don't want him to embrace any further. Might it make more sense to ridicule him? Fight in the gutter if he wants to fight, but not afford him any more dignity than the gutter rat he is? Why feed into the fascist fantasy?
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:24 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Must be nice to have all that straight white cismale privilege, and not have to worry about some drunk Proud Boy or Aryan Nations prick and his buddies decide to walk up and kick the **** out of you because you're too black, hispanic, queer, etc. in "his" part of town.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...113-story.html
https://www.them.us/story/anti-lgbtq...re-on-the-rise
https://www.adl.org/new-hate-and-old
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...estic-n1039206
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...r-report-says/
Hi luchog! Oh, yes, here in Jersey I've been thrown out of neighborhoods and shops for being white, been smacked around for inadvertently strolling into gang territory, had the living **** beat out of me on a bus by a black guy who didn't like my blonde ponytail, had skinheads regularly slap me around till I saddled up with some loosely anarchist types (pre calling themselves antifa). Now I'm the white trash in a well-to-do town, and they let me know it. No, you are not the Lone Ranger in unfair treatment. Shove your condescending....bless your heart, luchog.

eta: thanks for those articles (sincerely, thanks). I'm sure you'll take issue with the adl one though; it's titled 'the changing face of white supremacy'. you'll want to get down there and insult them till they acknowledge that nothing has changed at all since 1930's Germany.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:48 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Everyone has to start somewhere.

The very essence of being a "poser" is admiration for what is being posed. It's the first step on the journey.

Why do you seem to imply it is one they would not continue if given the opportunity and support by others of similar mien? They are demonstrating that inclination already.

These "posers" you dismiss so facilely are different only in degree from the more dedicated bigots they wish to emulate. That isn't as reassuring as you appear to believe it is.
Fair point. Are you sure though that the posers are going to continue their descent on that continuum? Did Miki Dora, wearing his surf nazi swastika, go on to gas Jews? I don't think they are all on that slippery slope. Unless we push them down it.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:37 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post

Why is that? Is it because of the aims, the goals, the actions of ISIS? Of course it is. Nazis should be treated the same way we treat members of ISIS, those that advocate for Nazism, that support Nazis should be treated the same way.
ISIS is recognized as an international terrorist organization by the US Federal Government. The US Federal government does not recognize any international terrorist organization referring to themselves as "Nazis" nor is there any federal criminal offense of "domestic terrorism."

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Old 5th September 2019, 10:04 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So you are continuing with this thing about every teenager with a Pepe t-shirt being a genocidal murderer? Sorry, I'm going to be confident that the sky is not falling. Not in that way, anyhow.

Got it, disingenuous denialist strawman decorating's definitely your thing. BTW, you forgot "white people are the real victims" this time.

Keep it up, you're doing great.

BTW, you should probably look up the term "useful idiot", because it's actually a real term in politics with a specific meaning. But since you're only interested in reading in insults you can dismiss rather than address actual points being made, I'll leave you to it.

For those who are interested in addressing the points: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=336883
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

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Old 5th September 2019, 10:27 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Got it, disingenuous denialist strawman decorating's definitely your thing.
Hyperbole, not strawman. Similar, but it doesn't alter the essence of your claim to make it easier to attack.

Quote:
BTW, you forgot "white people are the real victims" this time.
You're a liar. I never made any such statement, 'this time' or any other.

Keep it up, you're doing great.

Quote:
BTW, you should probably look up the term "useful idiot", because it's actually a real term in politics with a specific meaning. But since you're only interested in reading in insults you can dismiss rather than address actual points being made, I'll leave you to it.

For those who are interested in addressing the points: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=336883
Right. 'Bless your heart', I believe you closed with? It's me reading into things

Also, sorry about the tone of my last two posts. You flashed me back to skinhead problems from my younger days, and your 'poor me' stories brought the taste of my own blood in my mouth back.

eta: and I tried, yet again, to engage you productively. And you respond, yet again with snottiness. Why in the world post in a discussion when you are only interested in the 'dissing'? There's a whole 'cussion' that could be benificial to both of us, and others.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:25 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apparently based on a stupid wind up about being pro straight march in the US, some posters who don't live in the US think a small group of wannabe Nazi's want to invade their country and kill them because of their lifestyle.
Why are they wannabe Nazis?
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:59 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Please hear me out. Don't just scan the post looking for something to attack.

Actual Nazis were a political force, seeking a fascist state based on 'Aryan' supremacy and seeking world domination. These neo types are a social movement based on hating other groups with no significant other objectives. Yes, they coattail on Trump, and use him as a more socially acceptable rallying point. But they are just a bunch of sniveling bigots. They are not the Reich. They never will be. They are a social movement to be met at street level, not dignified as a legitimate political power. Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But the overwhelming majority are the Richard Spencers, Identity Evropas, and Proud Boys: a bunch of flaccid punks who need their asses kicked.
I think you are being quite naive here.

Yes, the average Nazi is a snivelling idiot. The people running the movement are not. They are very much the inheritors of the National Socialists of the 1920s and 30s, and it is a very big mistake to dismiss them.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:07 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, observation of their words and actions which do not indicate strict adherence to the Reich. There would be no change spelled out because there was no continuity in the first place.

Different time, different critters. Some similar swag and beliefs.

Please show 21st century direct endorsement of genocide. Not by association with previous generations,if you please
"Gas the ****, race war now!"

Know when that was said?
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:12 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
ISIS is recognized as an international terrorist organization by the US Federal Government. The US Federal government does not recognize any international terrorist organization referring to themselves as "Nazis" nor is there any federal criminal offense of "domestic terrorism."

The US Federal government is an international terrorist organization - not just under Trump. It's just rarely recognized.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:13 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not a revolution. One was squelched decisively. Another has picked up some of its ideology and symbols. There is no continuity.

Do you guys get so hyper literal if someone is called a cowboy?
It wasn't "squelched decisevly". Nazism survived WWII as an ideology. As an example, one of the parties in the Swedish parliament was founded by a Nazi. That was in the 1980s. He survived WWII, as did his views.

Nazism wasn't killed in WWII. Lots and lots of Nazis were.
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