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Tags Boston incidents , Kyle Chapman , Mark Sahady , white nationalists

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Old 7th September 2019, 04:42 AM   #561
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I mean someone who adheres to the ideology of Nazism. Can't see how you can use it any other way.

If someone tells you they are a Nazi, in other words that they follow/subscribe to the ideaology of Nazism you don't believe them?
Well no



With all due respect Darat, I think you need to get a bit of realism.

The actual Nazis were an atrocious group of people that formed a political party, that took control of an entire country "politically", and then did some serious atrocity,

And you equate some rednecks doing a march with that?

They might want to call themselves Nazis. But given they are no political force and they are usually just laughed off, I see no reason to connect them

There seems to be a need to get a grip
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:54 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well no







With all due respect Darat, I think you need to get a bit of realism.



The actual Nazis were an atrocious group of people that formed a political party, that took control of an entire country "politically", and then did some serious atrocity,



And you equate some rednecks doing a march with that?



They might want to call themselves Nazis. But given they are no political force and they are usually just laughed off, I see no reason to connect them



There seems to be a need to get a grip
Er wow.

Have you followed your reasoning through, do you understand the conclusion of your reasoning?

Plus of course you are aging ignoring what I've said and made up yet another straw man to argue against.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:07 AM   #563
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Yes I do.

I hate to break it to you but the idiots running the "march" aren't real Nazis


Maybe you can explain what is wrong with my reasoning

I'll start

Racist scum say they a Nazis.

Darat says they are actually Nazis because....................
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 7th September 2019 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:09 AM   #564
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This again.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:12 AM   #565
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Pretty much.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:19 AM   #566
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Congratulations. I guess.
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:25 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Yes I do.

I hate to break it to you but the idiots running the "march" aren't real Nazis


Maybe you can explain what is wrong with my reasoning

I'll start

Racist scum say they a Nazis.

Darat says they are Nazis because....................
We are talking about people who label themselves as being Nazis.

So "Darat says they are a Nazi because they say they are Nazis"

Why I'm not meant to believe people who freely choose to identify as Nazis are not Nazis is rather confusing to me, could you explain it?
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:29 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Congratulations. I guess.
I just find it slightly laughable that people would equate these idiots with actual real original Nazism.

They are a joke. With a few extremists
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:32 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We are talking about people who label themselves as being Nazis.

So "Darat says they are a Nazi because they say they are Nazis"

Why I'm not meant to believe people who freely choose to identify as Nazis are not Nazis is rather confusing to me, could you explain it?
Believe them as much as as you want mate.

It doesn't make them more threatening to our actual society,

They are just a bunch of **** heads to be ignored
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 7th September 2019, 05:46 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I just find it slightly laughable that people would equate these idiots with actual real original Nazism.

They are a joke. With a few extremists
**** them. They are racist ******** who happily associate themselves with Nazi symbols.
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:04 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Believe them as much as as you want mate.



It doesn't make them more threatening to our actual society,



They are just a bunch of **** heads to be ignored
And now you are moving the goal posts.

Do you agree that someone who labels themselves a Nazi we can assume they are a Nazi?
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is a rewriting of your posting history in this thread that is by your own posts in reply to my posts obviously untrue.

None of my posts mentioned anything as "Nazi Types", I never called all "alt-righters" Nazis, I never put any label on any one. Yet you still objected to my characterisation of a self labeled Nazi as being someone who is a Nazi I. E. Someone who follows the ideology of Nazism.

Indeed you went even further to claim that Nazism today isn't the same ideology as it originally was, and I'll remind you that you never provided any evidence for this claimed change in the ideology.

By all means change your mind but you could just admit you have changed your mind without trying to rewrite your own history of posting.

I, uh...don't know what you're talking about here. That exchange was prompted by a tangential question posed by IATS who was apparently just kidding about discussing anything. It wasn't about you.

Instead of this vague 'someone who identifies as a nazi', maybe we could be more specific about who we are talking about and analyze their position? Just throwing that out there.

I mentioned iconic Malibu surfer Miki Dora earlier, the original surf Nazi. He wore swastikas and painted them on his boards. A lot of us thought he was just trolling. Should we assume he was genocidal? If not, why not?
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I, uh...don't know what you're talking about here. That exchange was prompted by a tangential question posed by IATS who was apparently just kidding about discussing anything. It wasn't about you.



Instead of this vague 'someone who identifies as a nazi', maybe we could be more specific about who we are talking about and analyze their position? Just throwing that out there.



I mentioned iconic Malibu surfer Miki Dora earlier, the original surf Nazi. He wore swastikas and painted them on his boards. A lot of us thought he was just trolling. Should we assume he was genocidal? If not, why not?
What is vague about "someone who calls themselves a Nazi is a Nazi"?

It seems rather clear cut to me.
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:26 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What is vague about "someone who calls themselves a Nazi is a Nazi"?

It seems rather clear cut to me.
Was Mr Dora a nazi?

I call myself a Prince among men. Am I?
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Old 7th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Was Mr Dora a nazi?



I call myself a Prince among men. Am I?
Did he say he was?
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:07 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well yes I do

I doubt many on the stupid march do though

When you go to a rally, you have to get off the couch, first of all. You have to find out exactly when and where the rally takes place, so there's at least a little internet search involved, in most cases. People who attend usually know the slogans. If they don't before they show up, they'll see them on the banners. They also usually try to find out who the organizers are.
In this case, if you google "Boston straight pride parade" google suggests that you might want to add "organizers", and if you do, you get this on the first page:

Quote:
Super Happy Fun America formed earlier this year as a nonprofit corporation, and John Hugo, Samson Racioppi and Mark Sahady — all Massachusetts residents — are listed as its officers.
“Straight people are an oppressed majority," Hugo, the group's president, says on its website. "The day will come when straights will finally be included as equals among all of the other orientations."
(...)
Running as a Republican, Hugo, of Woburn, unsuccessfully sought the 5th Congressional District seat in 2018. During the race, he was endorsed by the group Resist Marxism, which describes itself as "a patriotic organization dedicated to American nationalism" and protecting "Western culture and Christianity."
Robert Trestan, executive director of the New England branch of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), says similar “code words” are used as language to communicate within other organizations the ADL has described as extremist or promoters of hate.
Sahady, of Malden, and Racioppi, of Salisbury, both describe themselves as organizers for Resist Marxism, which also held a separate "free speech" rally in Boston in 2018, and counter-protests to the March For Our Lives movement and the state’s "red flag" gun bill.
https://www.wbur.org/news/2019/08/29...ming To Boston (WBUR, Aug. 29, 2019)

But feel free to believe that "many on the stupid march" were just random shoppers who thought, 'Hey, Super Happy Fun America! That sounds great! Let's join them!' - and never wondered about all the police or the counter protesters.
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:15 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Did he say he was?
Not sure it matters, according to this cat:

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I mean someone who adheres to the ideology of Nazism. Can't see how you can use it any other way.

If someone tells you they are a Nazi, in other words that they follow/subscribe to the ideaology of Nazism you don't believe them?
Following the ideology is one thing, and I would agree with your take. Just saying ' I'm a nazi LOL', or even without the LOL,is a much lower standard that can be taken a variety of ways.

I'm a cowboy. Am I?
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:32 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure it matters, according to this cat:







Following the ideology is one thing, and I would agree with your take. Just saying ' I'm a nazi LOL', or even without the LOL,is a much lower standard that can be taken a variety of ways.



I'm a cowboy. Am I?
Are you?
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:38 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you?
My wife sometimes yells 'Thermal Thermal you're my cowboy' Does that count?

You are still being evasive, ignoring half the things said to quibble about the low hanging fruit. My position is that someone saying they are a nazi does not have to align with our understanding of the implications. It would be more accurate to identify who our self identified Nazis are and examine their adherence to ideology. That would eliminate the Miki Dora and Jovi Val possible false positives. Fair?

Eta: to answer your question: I say I am. I do not adhere to the ideology. Cowboy or nah?
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Old 7th September 2019, 09:50 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I mentioned iconic Malibu surfer Miki Dora earlier, the original surf Nazi. He wore swastikas and painted them on his boards. A lot of us thought he was just trolling. Should we assume he was genocidal? If not, why not?

In another thread, I have already mentioned the Danish stage director Sam Besekow (Wikipedia), the son of Jewish immigrants, who studied theatre history in Munich and Berlin in 1930. He used to tell the story of his old landlady, who liked the young student and invited him to a meeting organized by the Nazis. When he declined, telling her that he was a Jew, the landlady didn't take his no for an answer but insisted that he should come because, "We will be so much more pleased to have you there!"
I.e. she was unaware of purpose of the party of which she was a member.
So yes, there actually are (and were) people like that, but they were obviously few and far between, and after the Nazis took power in Germany, it became increasingly difficult to be ignorant or in denial about what they were.

Another example that I've mentioned before is Hans J. Massaquoi, author of the autobiography Destined to Witness - Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany (Wikipedia), who writes about the time when he wanted to join the Hitler Jugend and wore the Swastika until a Nazi teacher took it from him.

I can recommend the mini series - with subtitles in English:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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I AGREE


So we get it! There have been at least two ignorant 'Nazis', the old landlady and a young boy, and there are probably more, but why is it so important to you to stress this fact when 99.9% of people calling themselves Nazis, wearing Nazi symbols and attending Nazi rallies are actual Nazis?
Do you want to make an actual point??!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 7th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In another thread, I have already mentioned the Danish stage director Sam Besekow (Wikipedia), the son of Jewish immigrants, who studied theatre history in Munich and Berlin in 1930. He used to tell the story of his old landlady, who liked the young student and invited him to a meeting organized by the Nazis. When he declined, telling her that he was a Jew, the landlady didn't take his no for an answer but insisted that he should come because, "We will be so much more pleased to have you there!"
I.e. she was unaware of purpose of the party of which she was a member.
So yes, there actually are (and were) people like that, but they were obviously few and far between, and after the Nazis took power in Germany, it became increasingly difficult to be ignorant or in denial about what they were.

Another example that I've mentioned before is Hans J. Massaquoi, author of the autobiography Destined to Witness - Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany (Wikipedia), who writes about the time when he wanted to join the Hitler Jugend and wore the Swastika until a Nazi teacher took it from him.

I can recommend the mini series - with subtitles in English:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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I AGREE


So we get it! There have been at least two ignorant 'Nazis', the old landlady and a young boy, and there are probably more, but why is it so important to you to stress this fact when 99.9% of people calling themselves Nazis, wearing Nazi symbols and attending Nazi rallies are actual Nazis?
Do you want to make an actual point??!
That is not at all the point I have been sledgehammering. My point is to not hyperbolize a serious description.

Think about it. You have evidently made no attempt to understand my posts, if that is your takeaway. My point is to be realistic if you want credibility. There are, I believe, very very few actual Nazis running around, and a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's when compared to the over-the-top genocidal accusations. We get more points for accuracy than hyperbole
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:03 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My wife sometimes yells 'Thermal Thermal you're my cowboy' Does that count?

You are still being evasive, ignoring half the things said to quibble about the low hanging fruit. My position is that someone saying they are a nazi does not have to align with our understanding of the implications. It would be more accurate to identify who our self identified Nazis are and examine their adherence to ideology. That would eliminate the Miki Dora and Jovi Val possible false positives. Fair?

Eta: to answer your question: I say I am. I do not adhere to the ideology. Cowboy or nah?
I've been consistent in my views if when someone says they are a Nazi I will accept that they follow/adheres to/supports the ideology of Nazism.

You are the one that has been all other the place, claiming for example Nazism has changed its core ideology sometime in the 21st century, and then when asked to support that walked away from it.

I have no idea why you are fighting so much for people to consider those that call themselves Nazis as not being Nazis.

You have made no coherent argument that self labelled Nazis should not be considered Nazis.
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:18 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've been consistent in my views if when someone says they are a Nazi I will accept that they follow/adheres to/supports the ideology of Nazism.
And I keep saying those are two different things. I say I'm a cowboy. I do not follow the cowboy ideology. You evidently refuse to accept this possibility. Is that the impasse?

Quote:
You are the one that has been all other the place, claiming for example Nazism has changed its core ideology sometime in the 21st century, and then when asked to support that walked away from it.
I'm consistent if you read for comprehension instead of ignoring points to focus on rhetoric. Nazi core ideology is a political objective from the early twentieth century Germans. Times have changed, and so has the meaning and ideology.

Quote:
have no idea why you are fighting so much for people to consider those that call themselves Nazis as not being Nazis.

You have made no coherent argument that self labelled Nazis should not be considered Nazis.
Then you haven't been reading.

Ideology has changed: I could probably said usage or meaning has changed. Is that clearer? As the base meaning changed across time, the core ideology would of course be different too. If the meaning hadn't changed, we would still be limited to the German party in the 30's. You do accept that the actual, literal meaning has broadened and changed, yes?
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Old 7th September 2019, 10:56 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That is not at all the point I have been sledgehammering. My point is to not hyperbolize a serious description.

Think about it. You have evidently made no attempt to understand my posts, if that is your takeaway. My point is to be realistic if you want credibility. There are, I believe, very very few actual Nazis running around, and a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's when compared to the over-the-top genocidal accusations. We get more points for accuracy than hyperbole

I didn't know that this was a game of getting points, but what are the points that we get and when and how do we get them? Why are you so afraid that "a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's" might be confused with the allegedly "very very few actual Nazis running around"?! If the allegedly not-so-bad losers are actually ignorant about what constitutes Nazism, why would it be so bad to criticize National Socialism and make it clear to them what it is?
It would have been the way to go with both the old landlady and the young colored boy: 'Let me tell you why you shouldn't wear a Swastika: It's because ...'
Are you afraid they might get egged?! Wouldn't that be the perfect occasion to explain to them why they were egged if they haven't yet understood what National Socialism is about?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th September 2019, 12:30 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
**** them. They are racist ******** who happily associate themselves with Nazi symbols.
So you're saying Prince Harry wants to kill Darat.
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Old 7th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I didn't know that this was a game of getting points, but what are the points that we get and when and how do we get them? Why are you so afraid that "a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's" might be confused with the allegedly "very very few actual Nazis running around"?! If the allegedly not-so-bad losers are actually ignorant about what constitutes Nazism, why would it be so bad to criticize National Socialism and make it clear to them what it is?
It would have been the way to go with both the old landlady and the young colored boy: 'Let me tell you why you shouldn't wear a Swastika: It's because ...'
Are you afraid they might get egged?! Wouldn't that be the perfect occasion to explain to them why they were egged if they haven't yet understood what National Socialism is about?
I don't think not understanding is their problem.
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Old 7th September 2019, 01:26 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I accept that people who label themselves Nazis are Nazis.
Me too

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Old 7th September 2019, 04:16 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And now you are moving the goal posts.

Do you agree that someone who labels themselves a Nazi we can assume they are a Nazi?
With the recent lot.

No I don't
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:21 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So you're saying Prince Harry wants to kill Darat.
Listen, those royal garden parties involve a lot of interpersonal drama. I think we should give Harry and Darat some space on this.
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:22 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
He’s an entitled idiot with a worldview laden with racism.

Jovanni Valle is an alt-right **** head who flaunts Nazi symbols while spewing racism.

There is a distinction. Bit more grey when I think about it but a distinction none the less. They can both get ******.
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Old 7th September 2019, 04:43 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So you're saying Prince Harry wants to kill Darat.
Lol
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 7th September 2019, 08:56 PM   #592
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Overall, here's the thing...

if you're okay with letting the fascists march, rally, and so forth, this is the message you send: We're okay with you stomping our opponents.

Best to stomp this out, by all means. I'm not saying it's necessarily violent. But I will say that it's sometimes needed. the 4channers need to understand "if you bring this garbage to the streets, you will be hurt, and then shamed, rendered unemployable."

And if you get stomped in the streets, oh well. If you're shouting slurs and get doxxed, good. I hope you lose your job, your career is ruined.

Like MOP yells, Ante up!
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:42 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure it matters, according to this cat:



Following the ideology is one thing, and I would agree with your take. Just saying ' I'm a nazi LOL', or even without the LOL,is a much lower standard that can be taken a variety of ways.

I'm a cowboy. Am I?
Saying I'm a Nazi and going on a Nazi-organised march, I'll accept their claims.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:22 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Overall, here's the thing...

if you're okay with letting the fascists march, rally, and so forth, this is the message you send: We're okay with you stomping our opponents.

Best to stomp this out, by all means. I'm not saying it's necessarily violent. But I will say that it's sometimes needed. the 4channers need to understand "if you bring this garbage to the streets, you will be hurt, and then shamed, rendered unemployable."

And if you get stomped in the streets, oh well. If you're shouting slurs and get doxxed, good. I hope you lose your job, your career is ruined.

Like MOP yells, Ante up!
This attitude ends up working both ways.

As long as you are happy with the racist idiots disagreeing with you and stomping on your lot then while I disagree with it, go for it.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:12 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So you're saying Prince Harry wants to kill Darat.

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Me too


It's too bad that Baylor doesn't understand the difference between labeling oneself as something and dressing up as something for a costume ball. He probably thinks that people in pirate costumes are actual pirates ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th September 2019, 11:18 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Overall, here's the thing...

if you're okay with letting the fascists march, rally, and so forth, this is the message you send: We're okay with you stomping our opponents.

Best to stomp this out, by all means. I'm not saying it's necessarily violent. But I will say that it's sometimes needed. the 4channers need to understand "if you bring this garbage to the streets, you will be hurt, and then shamed, rendered unemployable."

And if you get stomped in the streets, oh well. If you're shouting slurs and get doxxed, good. I hope you lose your job, your career is ruined.

Like MOP yells, Ante up!
I'm not sure if this is agreeing or disagreeing, but I'd say we do have to let them march, if we really believe in our concept of free speech.

But we also believe that mutual fighting is just a petty disorderly persons offence, so have at it. Some misdemeanors are worth it.
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Old 8th September 2019, 11:34 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's too bad that Baylor doesn't understand the difference between labeling oneself as something and dressing up as something for a costume ball. He probably thinks that people in pirate costumes are actual pirates ...
Nazi apologist dann apologizing for Nazis. Exactly what I expect from a white supremacist who constantly spams "lists" purporting the supremacy of white countries.

If someone is a Nazi I take his word for it I don't buy the "lol jk bro" excuse like you do.
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Old 8th September 2019, 11:44 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Saying I'm a Nazi and going on a Nazi-organised march, I'll accept their claims.

The think to keep in mind with all this "Schroedinger's Nazi" nonsense, is that there is a very clear and obvious reason why it's occurring, that isn't really being addressed. That the "Schroedinger's Nazi" people have a vested interest in creating this false distinction, it's not just random denialism or "skepticism".

That reason is cognitive dissonance.

They know that Nazis are evil, or at least that the overwhelming majority of society considers Nazis evil, and have the history of mass murder on an unprecedented scale to demonstrate how evil they are.

However, in the case of neo-Nazis and others in the so-called alt.right, they also see parts of themselves. They can see the similarities in worldview and philosophy, shared beliefs if not necessarily shared goals. They are unhappy with the changes that are going on in the world, with louder voices being given to marginalized groups, with their own comfortable privileges being challenged; and they are not happy with that. Change is difficult, and they feel like they're losing something important to them. The status quo is being torn down, and with it their social standing.

So when they hear the neo-Nazis and KKK and other white supremacists and nationalists and fascists going on about the same thing, only taken to a much more violent and sinister level, this also makes them uncomfortable. They can see the logical links to their worldview in the fascists' worldivew. But in their minds they cannot be similar, because they are the "Good Guys" and the Nazis were the "Bad Guys"; and of course no one believes themselves to be the "Bad Guys". They can't believe themselves to be the "Bad Guys".

So since they do not wish to be associated with the fascists, that presents them with two options: 1) change their own worldview, or 2) deny the existence of the fascists. Changing one's worldview is extremely difficult to do, and they don't really have any desire to change it since it's so deeply ingrained, its something they've believed since they were old enough to have beliefs. Few people ever really change the worldview they were raised in; at least not quickly, and rarely completely.

So the other option is to deny the neo-Nazis. Obviously they cannot deny the obvious evidence that everyone can see (unless they're Trump), cannot deny the existence of people walking around with swastika armbands, cross-and-shield, white hood, etc. But what they can do is deny said peoples' links to the Nazi worldview, the historical KKK, and so on. They downplay the link, try to deny the heritage; and in doing so come up with dissonant distortions of logic accusing the fascists of being "cosplayers", "edgelord trolls", "No True Nazis", and so on. Denying that these people really understand or believe in the images and philosophies that they're "playing at".

And, of course, in order to maintain this state of mind, they must also denounce and deride those who stand up to and oppose the fascists. If someone treats the fascists as a real threat, as truly believing in and practicing the fascist white supremacist worldview, that threatens their own logical balancing act and forces them to take the neo-Nazis seriously, which their self-image will not allow them to do. So the anti-fascists become the true enemies, and must be demonized and ascribed the qualities of those they are opposing in order to maintain the facade.

Thus they resolve their cognitive dissonance and preserve their own worldview, without having to resort to uncomfortable and difficult self-examination in the face of growing evidence. They get to keep seeing themselves as "Good Guys", despite their clear similarities to the "Bad Guys".
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 8th September 2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:34 PM   #599
Thermal
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I wonder if we could come up with an acronym for your new technique, this Psychoanalysis Of Online Posters?
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:35 PM   #600
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Very similar to the distinction people people make between bad nationalism and good patriotism ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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