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Tags Boston incidents , Kyle Chapman , Mark Sahady , white nationalists

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Old 8th September 2019, 12:57 PM   #601
cullennz
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The think to keep in mind with all this "Schroedinger's Nazi" nonsense, is that there is a very clear and obvious reason why it's occurring, that isn't really being addressed. That the "Schroedinger's Nazi" people have a vested interest in creating this false distinction, it's not just random denialism or "skepticism".

That reason is cognitive dissonance.

They know that Nazis are evil, or at least that the overwhelming majority of society considers Nazis evil, and have the history of mass murder on an unprecedented scale to demonstrate how evil they are.

However, in the case of neo-Nazis and others in the so-called alt.right, they also see parts of themselves. They can see the similarities in worldview and philosophy, shared beliefs if not necessarily shared goals. They are unhappy with the changes that are going on in the world, with louder voices being given to marginalized groups, with their own comfortable privileges being challenged; and they are not happy with that. Change is difficult, and they feel like they're losing something important to them. The status quo is being torn down, and with it their social standing.

So when they hear the neo-Nazis and KKK and other white supremacists and nationalists and fascists going on about the same thing, only taken to a much more violent and sinister level, this also makes them uncomfortable. They can see the logical links to their worldview and the fascists' worldivew. But in their minds they cannot be similar, because they are the "Good Guys" and the Nazis were the "Bad Guys"; and of course no one believes themselves to be the "Bad Guys". They can't believe themselves to be the "Bad Guys".

So since they do not wish to be associated with the fascists, that presents them with two options: 1) to change their own worldview, or 2) deny the existence of the fascists. Changing one's worldview is extremely difficult to do, and they don't really have any desire to do so since it's so deeply ingrained in them. Few people ever really change the worldview they were raised in; at least not quickly, and rarely completely.

So the other option is to deny the neo-Nazis. Obviously they cannot deny the obvious evidence that everyone can see (unless they're Trump), cannot deny the people walking around with swastika armbands, cross-and-shield, white hood, etc. But what they can do is deny said peoples' links to the Nazi worldview, the historical KKK, and so on. They downplay the link, try to deny the heritage; and in doing so come up with dissonant distortions of logic accusing the fascists of being "cosplayers", "edgelord trolls", "No True Nazis", and so on. Denying that these people really understand or believe in the images and philosophies that they're "playing at".

And, of course, in order to maintain this state of mind, they must also denounce and deride those who stand up to and oppose the fascists. If someone treats the fascists as a real threat, as truly believing in and practicing the fascist white supremacist worldview, that threatens their own logical balancing act and forces them to take the neo-Nazis seriously, which their self-image will not allow them to do. So the anti-fascists become the true enemies, and must be demonized and ascribed the qualities of those they are opposing in order to maintain the facade.

Thus they resolve their cognitive dissonance and preserve their own worldview, without having to resort to uncomfortable and difficult self-examination in the face of growing evidence. They get to keep seeing themselves as "Good Guys", despite their clear similarities to the "Bad Guys".
And then you get people who are overly paranoid about a bunch of dickheads.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:10 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There are, I believe, very very few actual Nazis running around, and a ton of naziish neos and losers who appear to be 'not that bad's when compared to the over-the-top genocidal accusations.
What's the difference between a modern "actual nazi" (however rare) and the "poser" neonazis, in your mind?
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:17 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And then you get people who are overly paranoid about a bunch of dickheads.
I'm fine with erring on the side of caution with these people. The English-speaking world was apparently insufficiently paranoid in the 30's.

Quote:
The people who say that Hitler is Antichrist, or alternatively, the Holy Ghost, are nearer an understanding of the truth than the intellectuals who for ten dreadful years have kept it up that he is merely a figure out of comic opera, not worth taking seriously. All that this idea really reflects is the sheltered conditions of English life. The Left Book Club was at bottom a product of Scotland Yard, just as the Peace Pledge Union is a product of the Navy. One development of the last ten years has been the appearance of the ‘political book,’ a sort of enlarged pamphlet combining history with political criticism, as an important literary form. But the best writers in this line-Trotsky, Rauschning, Rosenberg, Silone, Borkenau, Koestler and others-have none of them been Englishmen, and nearly all of them have been renegades from one or other extremist party, who have seen totalitarianism at close quarters and known the meaning of exile and persecution. Only in the English-speaking countries was it fashionable to believe, right up to the outbreak of war, that Hitler was an unimportant lunatic and the German tanks made of cardboard.
Lesson learned.
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Old 8th September 2019, 01:47 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What's the difference between a modern "actual nazi" (however rare) and the "poser" neonazis, in your mind?
Power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate versus phallicly challenged white power punks seeking Facebook likes and trolling.

Eta: I don't think we should give thm the dignity of political protection. Fascism may have that. Gutter losers don't
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Last edited by Thermal; 8th September 2019 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 8th September 2019, 02:00 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate versus phallicly challenged white power punks seeking Facebook likes and trolling.

Eta: I don't think we should give thm the dignity of political protection. Fascism may have that. Gutter losers don't
I'm pretty sure those white power punks are "power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate".

What makes you think they're not?
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Old 8th September 2019, 02:09 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm pretty sure those white power punks are "power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate".

What makes you think they're not?
Zero sign of it. Anyone putting Richard Spencer on the ballot? Does Identity Evropa work the voter registration drives? Jovi Val running for Pres? Proud boys philosophizing on systems of governance on street corners?

Again, it's probably impossible to talk about 'neo nazis' in the abstract; they're all over the place. Who specifically do you have in mind?
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:01 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What's the difference between a modern "actual nazi" (however rare) and the "poser" neonazis, in your mind?
One who also identifies as a "Super Happy Fun American"?

Quote:
....In June, a group calling itself Super Happy Fun America announced it was planning a Straight Pride Parade in Boston...

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...straight-pride
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Old 8th September 2019, 04:14 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Zero sign of it. Anyone putting Richard Spencer on the ballot? Does Identity Evropa work the voter registration drives? Jovi Val running for Pres? Proud boys philosophizing on systems of governance on street corners?

Again, it's probably impossible to talk about 'neo nazis' in the abstract; they're all over the place. Who specifically do you have in mind?
The current administration is doing a perfectly fine job at delivering for them.
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Old 8th September 2019, 04:58 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Stupid derail with another hyperlink no one is going to click.
Try, you might learn something!!!
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:43 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The current administration is doing a perfectly fine job at delivering for them.
Kinda what I was thinking. The Republican Party in general, really:

Quote:
Corey Stewart, Virginia’s Republican Senate candidate...endorsed Paul Nehlen, an anti-*Semite and self-*described “pro-white” candidate who ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination for outgoing House Speaker Paul Ryan’s seat.
Quote:
Heil no: In March, a 70-year-old neo-Nazi named Arthur Jones ran unopposed to become the Republican candidate for Illinois’ 3rd Congressional District. The state GOP distanced itself from Jones, a Holocaust denier who said he was running against the “two-party, Jew-party, queer-party system.”
Quote:
John Fitzgerald, the Republican candidate in California’s 11th District,...has offered a $5,000 reward to anyone who can prove the Holocaust really happened and has written blog posts like “Why Are Powerful Jews Pushing Mass Immigration and Forced Multiculturalism Throughout the U.S. and Europe?”
Quote:
On his radio show, Steve West, a candidate for the Missouri House of Representatives, has made racist and anti-Semitic statements such as, “Hitler was right about what was taking place in Germany and who was behind it.”
Bunch more in the full article:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...an-candidates/
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:35 PM   #611
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The good news in Virginia is that we still have our Democratic senators!
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:35 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Power hungry political fascists actively seeking to dominate via a genocidal ethnostate
Originally Posted by Merriam Webster
one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis
Hmm... who’s right? Merriam Webster or some random person on the internet...

Tough call.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:56 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The point is the government has always had that power. I don't know what you aren't getting about this. The SCOTUS can easily translate what they're saying into hate speech, and make it illegal.
No, it can't. Hate speech is protected speech.

The last ruling was in 2017 and it's not a near thing; the ruling was unanimous.
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Old 8th September 2019, 11:41 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the USA I believe it is currently illegal to be a member of ISIS, to promote ISIS, to advocate for ISIS, to aid and abet ISIS.

Why is that? Is it because of the aims, the goals, the actions of ISIS? Of course it is. Nazis should be treated the same way we treat members of ISIS, those that advocate for Nazism, that support Nazis should be treated the same way.
Actually, I think you can "promote ISIS", etc, and the government will only bust you for making a bomb, or they trick you into making a bomb, or arrest you if you're trying to travel overseas to literally fight with ISIS, or something like that.

The only prosecuted terrorists I know of are cases like these:
https://shadowproof.com/2016/12/05/f...appeals-court/

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/ohio-...ying-join-isis

Just declaring yourself a member, or saying "I think ISIS is cool and misunderstood, and mostly right" won't do it.

ISIS is also different because it's an armed force we're currently at actual war with.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:15 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thanks for clarifying. We're on the same page, but damned if I can figure out what book you're reading.

I say yes, and probably half, if not the majority. People tend to be full of ****.

Ever see someone wearing a cross? Do you think that means they endorse every tenet, even the most extreme, of Christianity? I don't. Many only practice out of habit, or because it benefits them in some other way, like socially. No actual connection to their 'faith'.

Ever see someone who sports a Confederate flag tattoo? You think that means they actually want to enslave people? I know some edgy 'I'm a Rebel!' types who have one. They are not down-low wannabe slavers.

I don't think someone else's identification has to align with my understanding of that identification.
Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:28 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I wonder if we could come up with an acronym for your new technique, this Psychoanalysis Of Online Posters?
It's called psychoanalysis. There have been studies done on this. That you would label it "poop" shows immaturity and quite a bit of insecurity in your own position.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:58 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.

Thermal is thinking of people who have no idea what National Socialism was and is and who just use the Swastika to show 'the squares' how tough they are. Some biker gangs used to do that back in the 1960s and '70s, and we've already heard more than enough about the Surf Nazi.
In many ways, examples like this are similar to Baylor's example with prince Harry, who attended a fancy dress party wearing what was supposed to look like a Nazi uniform.

So let's take their childish objections seriously and tell them that, yes, you can dress up to look like a Nazi without being one, but if you're at a rally organized by Nazis and not at a fancy dress ball wearing Nazi insignia, it's very unlikely that you're not a Nazi.
Thermal ought to know better ...
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:06 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Hmm... who’s right? Merriam Webster or some random person on the internet...

Tough call.

By now, you ought to know that Thermal will object to the definition, "one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis," because American Nazis can't be Nazis since they want to make America great again, not Germany. And unless you think that it would be a good idea to annex the Sudetenland and invade England, Poland, France and Russia, you can't even be a real German Nazi. And since Russia was the Soviet Union back then and the USSR no longer exists, National Socialism has been rendered impossible!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:19 AM   #619
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PS

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.

Some of the khaki boys are more than willing to say that they oppose genocide in any form. Thermal sees this as an opportunity to trivialize Alt-Right and Alt-Lite, which is exactly what they want you to do:

Quote:
According to Oren Segal of the Anti-Defamation League, the alt-lite "operates in the orbit of the alt right", and it sometimes may not be possible to tell the difference between the groupings as there is significant cross-over. Others have described it as an offshoot of the alt-right, in that it claims to reject identity politics—including the white nationalism and racialism of the alt-right—though they share other key features and beliefs.
Alt-lite (Wikipedia)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th September 2019, 03:08 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Was Mr Dora a nazi?

I call myself a Prince among men. Am I?
How about saying you are a christian? Of course so many people say they are christians with out being christians like the catholic church.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:01 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.
As I've said, I don't know of any who openly advocate it. None. That's why they usually call themselves neos or something similar. If someone does not advocate something horrific, it's fair to assume they don't, unless you can show otherwise. Do I have to demonstrate that Germans don't advocate Naziism? I mean hey, they used to, so we can assume they still do, right? That is the logic you present here.

Seriously, this referring to some faceless generic Nazi is fruitless. Pick one of some kind of prominence, and we can scrutinize them. I really can't argue the specific beliefs of random caricatures.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's called psychoanalysis. There have been studies done on this. That you would label it "poop" shows immaturity and quite a bit of insecurity in your own position.
My wife is a psychologist. I have respect for the discipline. Luchog's paperback analysis trivializes a legitimate science. No professional would ever attempt to analyze someone's psyche from some online posts.

That said, yes, I am immature. Not so immature as to pose as a psychoanalyst on a discussion board, though.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thermal is thinking of people who have no idea what National Socialism was and is and who just use the Swastika to show 'the squares' how tough they are. Some biker gangs used to do that back in the 1960s and '70s, and we've already heard more than enough about the Surf Nazi.
In many ways, examples like this are similar to Baylor's example with prince Harry, who attended a fancy dress party wearing what was supposed to look like a Nazi uniform.

So let's take their childish objections seriously and tell them that, yes, you can dress up to look like a Nazi without being one, but if you're at a rally organized by Nazis and not at a fancy dress ball wearing Nazi insignia, it's very unlikely that you're not a Nazi.
Thermal ought to know better ...
Thermal does. You're not reading Thermal's posts. Thermal is arguing something a little different than you are assuming.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
By now, you ought to know that Thermal will object to the definition, "one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis," because American Nazis can't be Nazis since they want to make America great again, not Germany. And unless you think that it would be a good idea to annex the Sudetenland and invade England, Poland, France and Russia, you can't even be a real German Nazi. And since Russia was the Soviet Union back then and the USSR no longer exists, National Socialism has been rendered impossible!
Not even close. My impromptu description (that you would have noticed if you were actually reading) does not reference Germany. Because a modern Nazi would not be restricted to 1930's Germany.

I didn't bother to point out to johnny karate that my description summarizes the beliefs of the German Nazis pretty well (although I wasn't even providing a definition). I just removed 'German' to make it more modern day applicable. But that might have made Mr karate feel a little stupid for not noticing that.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:24 AM   #623
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Is there an actual point to this gymnastics?
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:25 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Is there an actual point to this pedantry?
I guess Nazis are more interesting than regular homophobes?
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Is there an actual point to this gymnastics?
Gymnastics are fun. This is getting silly.

But if the wise johnny karate would like to restrict the definition to the belief of German Nazis, so be it. Pretty stupid and counterproductive, but whatever. I thought the whole fascist ethnostate was more applicable, but so be it.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:46 AM   #626
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What's fun, and I hope deeply disturbing to actual neo-Nazis, is that both actual Nazi gear and skinhead fashion have been adopted and fetishized by a slice of the gay population. A Tumblr full of guys dressed as Nazis is more likely to be a gay porn collection than a racial political one. While this trend is disturbing on several levels I can't help but find deeply funny the thought of genuine Nazi admirers being misled by appearances and stumbling into quite an unexpected crowd.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Is there an actual point to this gymnastics?
Yeah, it appears that Nazis are only to be considered Nazis once they've successfully killed millions of their fellow citizens, oh and invaded Poland.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:50 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah, it appears that Nazis are only to be considered Nazis once they've successfully killed millions of their fellow citizens, oh and invaded Poland.
They also have to have strong opinions about the political economy of the Ruhr valley.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:57 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah, it appears that Nazis are only to be considered Nazis once they've successfully killed millions of their fellow citizens, oh and invaded Poland.
According to johnny karate. I don't think anyone else thinks that.

Or are we down to deliberately misrepresenting other's arguments and strawmen?

Nevermind. Rhetorical question. Serious discussion left the building a while ago.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:26 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Please present one person who identifies as a Nazi and opposes genocide in any form.
So you mean any form or all forms? Because I'm guessing most Nazis oppose the genocide of Aryans.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:51 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
According to johnny karate. I don't think anyone else thinks that.



Or are we down to deliberately misrepresenting other's arguments and strawmen?



Nevermind. Rhetorical question. Serious discussion left the building a while ago.
You have made it abundantly clear that you believe that unless Nazis are in political power we shouldn't be calling Nazis Nazis.

ETA I don't believe the above is a straw man, for example just above these posts you posted:

....Seriously, this referring to some faceless generic Nazi is fruitless. Pick one of some kind of prominence, and we can scrutinize them....
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Old 9th September 2019, 09:14 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have made it abundantly clear that you believe that unless Nazis are in political power we shouldn't be calling Nazis Nazis.

ETA I don't believe the above is a straw man, for example just above these posts you posted:

....Seriously, this referring to some faceless generic Nazi is fruitless. Pick one of some kind of prominence, and we can scrutinize them....
That's a lie. I have never, ever, not even once even suggested that they had to be in power. The dishonesty in these arguments is going over the top.

I have said...repeatedly...that Nazism is first and foremost a political desire for a fascist ethnostate. You guys are equating any white supremacist with Nazism. It's just factually wrong.

And yes, I encourage anyone to pick one of prominence. Do you know what that means? It means not some toothless schmuck in the backwoods of Kentucky. Someone who is enough of a public figure that we can analyze their position.

But you continue to misrepresent, and now outright lie, about my position. Which oddly, is more hard left than most of you except that I don't call white power twats a political party.
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:49 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have made it abundantly clear that you believe that unless Nazis are in political power we shouldn't be calling Nazis Nazis.

ETA I don't believe the above is a straw man, for example just above these posts you posted:

....Seriously, this referring to some faceless generic Nazi is fruitless. Pick one of some kind of prominence, and we can scrutinize them....
That's the same impression I've had as well. Unless they're in enough power to actually start eliminating people, then they aren't nazi's that believe in genocide. They're...something, something tiny penis or some such nonsense.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
No, it can't. Hate speech is protected speech.

The last ruling was in 2017 and it's not a near thing; the ruling was unanimous.
That they haven't done it is not evidence that they couldn't do it.
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:55 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's the same impression I've had as well. Unless they're in enough power to actually start eliminating people, then they aren't nazi's that believe in genocide. They're...something, something tiny penis or some such nonsense.



That they haven't done it is not evidence that they couldn't do it.
Nope. They just need to believe in a fascist ethnostate. Presumably they would be working towards that goal, but they need not have any success whatsoever in acheiving it.

If you read that in, read more carefully. You're projecting a boogeyman argument onto me
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nope. They just need to believe in a fascist ethnostate. Presumably they would be working towards that goal, but they need not have any success whatsoever in acheiving it.

If you read that in, read more carefully. You're projecting a boogeyman argument onto me
There was a link to a podcast that documented that very requirement. That you either refuse to listen to it, refuse to acknowledge it, or refuse to provide a solid argument against isn't everyone else's problem. You've then changed it to mean that people in power have to believe that (which their is in King, and even Trump to some level). Now I'm not sure where this argument has gone to as it seems to grow legs sporadically.

What are your requirements now?
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:16 AM   #636
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Supreme court of MA rules that Judge Sinnott has no authority to force prosecutors to charge, citing obvious separations of powers. It's a decision that shocks no one, and it is absurd that such a ruling was necessary. Judge Sinnott was clearly abusing his position or is incompetent in the law. Either way, he should be removed from the bench.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...?event=event25
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:18 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Supreme court of MA rules that Judge Sinnott has no authority to force prosecutors to charge, citing obvious separations of powers. It's a decision that shocks no one, and it is absurd that such a ruling was necessary. Judge Sinnott was clearly abusing his position or is incompetent in the law. Either way, he should be removed from the bench.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...?event=event25
I'm not familiar with the process to do this but I wholeheartedly agree.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nope. They just need to believe in a fascist ethnostate. Presumably they would be working towards that goal, but they need not have any success whatsoever in acheiving it.

If you read that in, read more carefully. You're projecting a boogeyman argument onto me
And why do you think their ethnostate is non fascist?
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:48 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I guess Nazis are more interesting than regular homophobes?
Sartorially?
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Sartorially?
I can't be bothered, the jerks fixated on the One True Definition of Nazi have ruined this thread. I suggest all others abandon the thread and let the miscreants invade Russia in winter on their own.
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