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Old 20th October 2019, 06:29 PM   #1
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14 year old murdered outside school by bullies

This is a bit old but very saddening
https://www.cp24.com/news/community-...igil-1.4631616

The boy with that shy smile is 14-year-old Devan Selvey.



This is Devan holding his first nephew.



His sister is expecting again.

Just that this time, Devan won’t be able to hold his nephew.

On one Monday afternoon, Devan was attacked in front of his mother outside Sir Winston Churchill Secondary School in Hamilton's east end, a city in Ontario, Canada. The teen boy later died in hospital.

He had just started school as a 9th grader at the same school.

In less than one month, the kid had already been bullied enough, to the extent that on monday he called his mother to come pick him up as some kids were bothering him.

And there he was attacked, stabbed, in front of his mother by the same bullies, who had been reported to the school multiple times in that one month.

Reported and as with all cases of bullying, not held accountable for.

Despite a zero-tolerance, zero bullying policy in place, this kid lost his life.

Police arrested a few teens, some of them are charged with first-degree murder, others released.

Is that enough?

Would that bring Devan back?

His mother, Shari-Ann Selvey, while speaking to the media, said "He lost all opportunities. He's never going to grow up. He's never going to get married. He's never going to know what it's like to be a father."

“Everyone failed him”

"Why was I the only person that had his back?"


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Old 20th October 2019, 10:01 PM   #2
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That's horrifying. I wish there were something else useful to say.

I don't really have anything else to say but I thought someone should respond.
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Old 20th October 2019, 10:15 PM   #3
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The angry father in me wants to say "bash the little bastards until they are bleeding, and bruised all over. Then let them recover before jailing them for life"

The sensible person in me says jail them for life (without the beating), along with any and all adults at the school that knew about the bullying and did nothing. Those adults need to be held fully accountable as a warning to teachers and staff other in schools all over Canada, that doing nothing about bullying is not an option.
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Old 20th October 2019, 10:23 PM   #4
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Jail the bastards; charge em with murder.

Bullying isn't dealt with severely enough ever.
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Old 20th October 2019, 11:09 PM   #5
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Stabbing especially in a manner that is public and leathal is unusal for bullying as bullies will generally only do what they think they will get away with. Could this have also been a gang initiation or similar activity?

Hope the bastards get locked away for a long time and I hope the us an inquiry with meaningful consequences at the school.
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:27 AM   #6
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Then start on the people who knew person was being bullied and did nothing. I say just knowing a person is being bullied should be a crime.
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Old 21st October 2019, 05:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The angry father in me wants to say "bash the little bastards until they are bleeding, and bruised all over. Then let them recover before jailing them for life"

The sensible person in me says jail them for life (without the beating), along with any and all adults at the school that knew about the bullying and did nothing. Those adults need to be held fully accountable as a warning to teachers and staff other in schools all over Canada, that doing nothing about bullying is not an option.
Your angry father option is along the lines of what my father wants to be done.
He says that we should leave them hungry and/or feed them just bread until their hunger overpowers the emotions.

I think suspending the teachers without pay would be a better option than outright jailing them.
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Old 21st October 2019, 05:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Stabbing especially in a manner that is public and leathal is unusal for bullying as bullies will generally only do what they think they will get away with. Could this have also been a gang initiation or similar activity?

Hope the bastards get locked away for a long time and I hope the us an inquiry with meaningful consequences at the school.
And...
They stabbed the boy in front of his mom
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Old 21st October 2019, 05:48 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Stabbing especially in a manner that is public and leathal is unusal for bullying as bullies will generally only do what they think they will get away with. Could this have also been a gang initiation or similar activity?

Hope the bastards get locked away for a long time and I hope the us an inquiry with meaningful consequences at the school.
This is a pretty extreme case. Usually ignoring bullies is a winning strategy for teachers and admins. Sure, some kid's life is hell for a few years, but broad daylight murder is not usually the outcome.

Preventing bullying requires good judgement, involvement, diligence, and generally a whole lot of hard work. Much easier to ignore it and wait for problem students to move on.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:01 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Jail the bastards; charge em with murder.

Bullying isn't dealt with severely enough ever.
This isn't bullying. It's assault. I've lived through bullying and I was never stabbed.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This isn't bullying. It's assault. I've lived through bullying and I was never stabbed.
Yeah. I don't want to seem like I'm minimizing how bad bullying can be but outright murder is beyond bullying. Bullying is to murder what sexual harassment is to rape.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:16 AM   #12
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Kids should be tried as adults regardless of age. Deliberately killing someone makes your age irrelevant.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:18 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This isn't bullying. It's assault. I've lived through bullying and I was never stabbed.
My first thought too. Real qualitative difference between bullies and murderers.

I think the 'why' needs to be pinned down before the punishment can be determined. Three other kids have been released without charge, indicating they were not involved. So did we have one straggling psycho, or was the victim involved in something? The mother claiming he was bullied as the cause seems a simplistic explanation for a violent murder.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:22 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My first thought too. Real qualitative difference between bullies and murderers.

I think the 'why' needs to be pinned down before the punishment can be determined. Three other kids have been released without charge, indicating they were not involved. So did we have one straggling psycho, or was the victim involved in something? The mother claiming he was bullied as the cause seems a simplistic explanation for a violent murder.
Bullying might just be a catch-all term here. From the reports of the mother, it seems that her child was having repeated conflicts with our little murderer.

Reports also mention other students involved, so it may be a matter of bullying by a group that included the murderer. Perhaps the other students were sticking to more conventional bullying tactics.

But yeah, knifing someone to death falls outside the conventional understanding of bullying.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:43 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Kids should be tried as adults regardless of age. Deliberately killing someone makes your age irrelevant.
I can not disagree with this more, fortunately, most legal systems agree with me. For a child to murder, there is almost certainly a lot in there life that has gone terribly wrong and no 26 year old is the same person as their 16 year old self. Science is mostly on my side on this.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bullying might just be a catch-all term here. From the reports of the mother, it seems that her child was having repeated conflicts with our little murderer.

Reports also mention other students involved, so it may be a matter of bullying by a group that included the murderer. Perhaps the other students were sticking to more conventional bullying tactics.

But yeah, knifing someone to death falls outside the conventional understanding of bullying.
I'm glad a bunch of other's have chimed in on this. I suppose "bullying" may be a spectrum of things from always picking the a kid last for teams to murder, but I calling all of that the same word is pretty misleading.

Anyrate, ideally the murderer and any accomplices will be incarcerated in a facility that is geared toward rehabilitation of youth offenders until it is clear they no longer pose a threat to others.
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:55 AM   #16
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For anyone's reference here is the current Chart of Consequences for the school board that school was in.
https://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/doc...nsequences.pdf
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Old 21st October 2019, 07:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I can not disagree with this more, fortunately, most legal systems agree with me. For a child to murder, there is almost certainly a lot in there life that has gone terribly wrong and no 26 year old is the same person as their 16 year old self. Science is mostly on my side on this.
You left out that you're on the right side of history.
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Old 21st October 2019, 07:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ShortHaxYT View Post
For anyone's reference here is the current Chart of Consequences for the school board that school was in.
https://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/doc...nsequences.pdf
They don't list vicious murder, so I guess the kid walks.

Although a suspension of 1 to 20 whole days is required for assaulting with a weapon causing harm. So there's that.
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Old 21st October 2019, 09:01 AM   #19
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14 year old murdered outside school by bullies

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They don't list vicious murder, so I guess the kid walks.



Although a suspension of 1 to 20 whole days is required for assaulting with a weapon causing harm. So there's that.


The funny part is you get a suspension even if you say “I will kill you” to someone, it’s the first thing in the list. Or that is what they told us (I’m in the same school board as the deceased)


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Old 21st October 2019, 10:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ShortHaxYT View Post
The funny part is you get a suspension even if you say “I will kill you” to someone, it’s the first thing in the list. Or that is what they told us (I’m in the same school board as the deceased)

Children have been suspended or expelled for threatening to kill people, even when that threat is so vague as to be absolutely meaningless. Children have been suspended or expelled for pointing a "finger gun" at someone.

Yet bullying is rife in schools, and most administrations make only a token effort to address it, if any.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:43 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Children have been suspended or expelled for threatening to kill people, even when that threat is so vague as to be absolutely meaningless. Children have been suspended or expelled for pointing a "finger gun" at someone.

Yet bullying is rife in schools, and most administrations make only a token effort to address it, if any.
Not so!

They're really big on Bullies2Buddies.

It was developed by an expert.

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Old 21st October 2019, 11:55 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Kids should be tried as adults regardless of age. Deliberately killing someone makes your age irrelevant.
I'd cap it at 14 or so.

There are plenty of toddlers who've deliberately killed relatives with firearms.

For someone who's well into puberty to kill they have to be aware of what they're doing. So they should be charged as adults.
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Old 21st October 2019, 05:43 PM   #23
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18 year old male involved? Sounds like Devan's complaints against the bullies "provoked" them into calling in an older sibling and stabbing him. If he had only shut up and consented to being bullied he would probably still be alive.
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Old 21st October 2019, 05:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This isn't bullying. It's assault. I've lived through bullying and I was never stabbed.
It has gone beyond assault. it's now murder.
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Old Yesterday, 04:25 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ShortHaxYT View Post
For anyone's reference here is the current Chart of Consequences for the school board that school was in.
https://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/doc...nsequences.pdf
What is worrying is that the principle can suspend a student for "immunization". I only hope that does not mean what I read it to mean that is vaccination.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They don't list vicious murder, so I guess the kid walks.

Although a suspension of 1 to 20 whole days is required for assaulting with a weapon causing harm. So there's that.
The person who does that risks getting expelled. The suspension is only because it is the board who expels a student and only after an investigation. The principle will also report the incident to the police. There is not much more a school can do. They no longer have the authority to repeatedly hit the student with a cane or strap like what they could when I was a child.
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Old Yesterday, 04:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It has gone beyond assault. it's now murder.
Yes, of course. The point is that the attack cannot reasonably called bullying.
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Old Yesterday, 04:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
What is worrying is that the principle can suspend a student for "immunization". I only hope that does not mean what I read it to mean that is vaccination.
Certain vaccines are required by law in order to attend school in Ontario. I'm guessing that the student can be suspended for not getting a required immunization.
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Old Yesterday, 06:14 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Certain vaccines are required by law in order to attend school in Ontario. I'm guessing that the student can be suspended for not getting a required immunization.
True. I once got a letter from Toronto Public Heath stating I must get one of my vaccines or I will be suspended from school until my doctor administers it. However, I already had it so I just updated my records online
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Old Today, 03:14 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, of course. The point is that the attack cannot reasonably called bullying.
Why not?

We call common assault, kidnap, psychological torture and all sorts of other things 'bullying'. Why draw the line at murder?
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Old Today, 06:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why not?

We call common assault, kidnap, psychological torture and all sorts of other things 'bullying'. Why draw the line at murder?
Because it diminishes the seriousness of murder by lumping it in with lesser crimes and even things that aren't crimes but merely antisocial behavior. If someone calls me names that is bullying, yes. If they murder me are you really going to say "Hey, did you hear about TragicMonkey? He got bullied!"?
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Old Today, 06:06 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why not?

We call common assault, kidnap, psychological torture and all sorts of other things 'bullying'.
Wait, do we? I sure don't.
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Old Today, 06:17 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait, do we? I sure don't.
Yeah we do.

I'll find the videos where 'bullying' is filmed.

A fair proportion of the time what they're referring to is common assault, it's just call bullying because it happens in a school.

If you think bullying consists only of verbal insults (the seriousness of which I don't wish to diminish) then you've not looked hard enough.
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Old Today, 06:36 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why not?

We call common assault, kidnap, psychological torture and all sorts of other things 'bullying'. Why draw the line at murder?
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because it diminishes the seriousness of murder by lumping it in with lesser crimes and even things that aren't crimes but merely antisocial behavior. If someone calls me names that is bullying, yes. If they murder me are you really going to say "Hey, did you hear about TragicMonkey? He got bullied!"?
This, and as a rule, bullying is things that make someone's life miserable, not ending someones life.
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Old Today, 06:40 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah we do.

I'll find the videos where 'bullying' is filmed.

A fair proportion of the time what they're referring to is common assault, it's just call bullying because it happens in a school.

If you think bullying consists only of verbal insults (the seriousness of which I don't wish to diminish) then you've not looked hard enough.
I think you meant SOME call this bullying, not WE call this bullying.
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Old Today, 06:42 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This, and as a rule, bullying is things that make someone's life miserable, not ending someones life.
Is it impossible for an act of bullying to escalate to murder? I don't think bullying is defined by the seriousness of the harm, but rather by it's motivation.
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Old Today, 06:48 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Is it impossible for an act of bullying to escalate to murder? I don't think bullying is defined by the seriousness of the harm, but rather by it's motivation.
Nobody's saying that. Just that the general category "bullying" is insufficient to convey the seriousness of murder even if the murder can legitimately fit into it. Like how "a dental issue" could be a cavity, an overbite, or having smashed jaw-first into a concrete post at 90 mph in a motorcycle accident. Nobody would sensibly say anyone experiencing the latter "has a dental issue" unless they were deliberately trying to downplay the seriousness.
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Old Today, 06:53 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nobody's saying that. Just that the general category "bullying" is insufficient to convey the seriousness of murder even if the murder can legitimately fit into it. Like how "a dental issue" could be a cavity, an overbite, or having smashed jaw-first into a concrete post at 90 mph in a motorcycle accident. Nobody would sensibly say anyone experiencing the latter "has a dental issue" unless they were deliberately trying to downplay the seriousness.
I agree with that 100%. If someone were to characterise this incident as a "Bullying Incident" rather than "Murder" I'd find that very odd and a little crazy.

But the OP says "14 year old murdered outside school by bullies", it seems that the incident is correctly characterised as a murder.
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Old Today, 06:59 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I agree with that 100%. If someone were to characterise this incident as a "Bullying Incident" rather than "Murder" I'd find that very odd and a little crazy.

But the OP says "14 year old murdered outside school by bullies", it seems that the incident is correctly characterised as a murder.
I wasn't arguing with the OP, I was arguing with the post I quoted asking why this shouldn't be called bullying.
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Old Today, 07:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A fair proportion of the time what they're referring to is common assault, it's just call bullying because it happens in a school.
No, it's bullying because it's intimidation and harassment of weaker people.

Killing them doesn't fit.
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Old Today, 07:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, it's bullying because it's intimidation and harassment of weaker people.

Killing them doesn't fit.

I think it's on a continuum. I think that continuum includes what would be prosecuted as assault in the adult world.

I think assault can lead to death, which would be murder.



I'm not trying to diminish this event. Quite the reverse.
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