ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 29th June 2019, 04:10 PM   #401
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,641
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.

You seem to be trying to pick out the thread of gender roles in society, but the problem is that you can't really do this without unraveling the whole tapestry.
My view is that gender roles in society can cause a conflict with the self perception of gender.
Societal pressure to conform to the boy/girl gender roles, can cause problems with the people who just dont feel as if they are a part of that.
Gender, hard to define or something.

The moment you start to change your body to conform though, I dont think thats a gender issue anymore.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2019, 08:56 PM   #402
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,492
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.
So a trans-woman is just a cis-male who wants to stay home with the kids? Whodathunk!
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2019, 10:16 PM   #403
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nope.

Everything else is just figuring out what that means and whether it's actually true.
I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women.

That's it. The thread's drifted into all sorts of bollocks, which is fairly demonstrable by the fact that the same arguments have been going on for 50-something pages with no sign of consensus.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2019, 06:04 AM   #404
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.
Much like how Jesus would be totally unsurprised at how Christianity turned out.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2019, 01:28 PM   #405
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Much like how Jesus would be totally unsurprised at how Christianity turned out.
I didn't claim to be surprised what happened happened, but the fact is the thread is simply about trans women not being women. I'm not even bothered about the drift into irrelevancy - it displays perfectly why there will never be an answer to the "problem" of where trans people sit* in society. We have two sides implacably opposed to the other's position. Instead of trying to reach a happy compromise, both sides have become more and more entrenched.

It's a beautiful mirror for politics.

And for the record, yes, I think Jesus would be shocked at what's done and said in his name. That's why he let himself be nailed to a tree, according to the script I read.

He just wasn't a very good psychic and didn't see what Saul of Tarsus was going to do.

*Yes, I did use it deliberately.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:44 PM   #406
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate.

https://theconversation.com/period-p...bout-it-118824

Trans women will never need to try to figure out which product to use, will never pay the sales tax on them, will never enrich the corporations behind menstrual products, and will never be able to claim they need time to deal with period pain or have to rush to the shops to buy new panties when an accidental overflow occurs.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:00 PM   #407
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate.
Neither does my mother-in-law.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:20 PM   #408
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Neither does my mother-in-law.
What an idiotic reply - she obviously used to. The fact that she's post-menopausal doesn't mean her input is either invalid or useless.

Exactly unlike a trans woman's opinion.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:44 PM   #409
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What an idiotic reply - she obviously used to. The fact that she's post-menopausal doesn't mean her input is either invalid or useless.
I have no idea why you'd assume someone's input is invalid or useless just b/c they've never personally suffered from the subject under discussion. Do we tell pacifists to shut up unless they happen to be combat veterans?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 02:53 PM   #410
BrooklynBaby
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 879
The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 03:25 PM   #411
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,641
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate.

https://theconversation.com/period-p...bout-it-118824

Trans women will never need to try to figure out which product to use, will never pay the sales tax on them, will never enrich the corporations behind menstrual products, and will never be able to claim they need time to deal with period pain or have to rush to the shops to buy new panties when an accidental overflow occurs.
Transwomen aren't women, Transmen arent men, thats arguing about sex.

I feel gender is the complicated topic, not sex.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 05:01 PM   #412
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I have no idea why you'd assume someone's input is invalid or useless just b/c they've never personally suffered from the subject under discussion. Do we tell pacifists to shut up unless they happen to be combat veterans?
Terrible analogy. Can a non-combatant speak to the personal effect of war injuries? No.

If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.
Have you been asleep for a few years, mate? There are numerous examples in the thread and elsewhere of feminists not being at all silent on the subject, then being labelled TERFS for not playing along with the trans agenda.

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Transwomen aren't women, Transmen arent men, thats arguing about sex.

I feel gender is the complicated topic, not sex.
And I feel the attempt to make the two different is absurd. The myth is that biology is interchangeable.

A Dutch bloke recently went to court to change his age from 60 to 40, because he identifies as a 40-year-old.

The court rightly threw it out.

It's an identical situation. Or, you could go ask Rachel Dolezal how things worked out for her.

The more this whole sorry saga goes on, the more it looks like a squeaky wheel syndrome that could, and should, be safely ignored.

I think I'm going to take my emotional support flamethrower and insist that I be referred to as a teapot from now on. I'm full of tea, virtually never put any liquid not tea into me, and I can make a jolly fine teapot shape with my arms. I'm pretty sure I have a tea strainer that won't look too much like a yarmulke if I wear it on my head - I don't identify as Jewish, even with more of it that Liz Warren has Native American.

I will be Mr Teapot - my gender/sex/cisness is not an issue.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 05:26 PM   #413
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid.
If what you're trying to say is that there were no transwomen in the cross-sectional survey of 32,748 women discussed in the article you linked, well, yeah. Obviously. If you're trying to say that transwomen are different from ciswomen in the sense that one group is at risk of menstrual cycles and pregnancy, again, you're simply stating the obvious. When transwomen activists demand access to women's spaces so they can properly dispose of feminine hygiene products, we will return to this point.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

Last edited by d4m10n; 1st July 2019 at 05:31 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 05:41 PM   #414
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,552
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women.
Seriously? You started a thread just to say that transwomen don't have vaginas? And now you're back to yell at us for not leaving it at that?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 05:56 PM   #415
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seriously? You started a thread just to say that transwomen don't have vaginas? And now you're back to yell at us for not leaving it at that?
Damn right - and get the **** off my lawn while you're at it.

I'm actually more amused than annoyed.

But do try to explain to me how any trans woman wanting to be classed as an actual woman is in any way different to Rachel Dolezal and her blackness.

I've said an enormous number of times that if anyone wants to progress the issue instead of arguing the toss over bloody toilets, or some mythical idea of how biology and four billion years of evolution works, take a leaf out of the Pasifika handbook and just have a third gender.

Not a perfect answer for everyone? Write a sternly-worded letter to your local newspaper. Or even better, Tweet endlessly about it.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 06:49 PM   #416
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,718
Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 07:01 PM   #417
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person.
It's worse than that.

Speaking only for myself, I intend to convey a different meaning (using the exact same word) when I say "women's reproductive health," "women's clothes," and "women's sports."
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:33 PM   #418
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person.
Only three choices? Bit limiting.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:36 PM   #419
BrooklynBaby
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 879
I think I've got it:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Men are Women
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 08:38 PM   #420
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,213
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I think I've got it:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Men are Women
Perfect.

You can close the thread now - nobody's going to improve on that.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 12:33 AM   #421
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 12,933
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women.

That's it. The thread's drifted into all sorts of bollocks, which is fairly demonstrable by the fact that the same arguments have been going on for 50-something pages with no sign of consensus.
There's a thread in science about how rockets don't work in the vacuum of space. But it's also about conservation of momentum, fluid dynamics, rocket science in general, and some other issues.

You started a conversation. That doesn't mean you define it.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 01:25 AM   #422
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 70,676
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.
Silence? Maybe you need to get some hearing aids! There is a huge, transnational feminist campaign against this.
__________________
"Someone is a woman if she has no functional SRY gene, or no functional androgen response." Rolfe
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 02:11 AM   #423
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,718
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I think I've got it:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Men are Women
Hmmm... the desperate resort to the Orwell reference. That is just about the level for this thread.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 03:14 AM   #424
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 85,378
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Terrible analogy. Can a non-combatant speak to the personal effect of war injuries? No.

If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid.
Rubbish. One of the unique characteristics of humans is that we can draw experience from others. Obviously that means we can then discuss it.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 04:00 AM   #425
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Silence? Maybe you need to get some hearing aids! There is a huge, transnational feminist campaign against this.
I imagine that the post may have been trying to say that: "feminists" have been completely ineffective and durr hurr serves the bleating wretches right yar boo what they need is a darn good **** anyway right? Dunno though.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 07:00 AM   #426
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation:

https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 08:00 AM   #427
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,740
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
All hail the progressive bourgeoisie!
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 08:17 AM   #428
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,192
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
All hail the progressive bourgeoisie!
Are you trying to make an argument against anything in particular?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 08:21 AM   #429
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 43,891
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hope springs eternal.


If we explain it just one more time, the other side will get it, surely.
Exactly.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 08:46 AM   #430
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,740
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are you trying to make an argument against anything in particular?
Not so much making an argument as expressing a certain sentiment against a certain aspect of the liberal worldview. An argument for which can certainly be defended but which I don't particularly have the intention of doing so, especially since it would take us too far off track for this thread. Perhaps the sentiment can best be expressed by the following:

Conservatives: "Ten white men should own half the planet!"
Liberals: "No! Five of them should be women, and maybe one of them should be black!"
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 08:55 AM   #431
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,718
Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men."

So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 09:24 AM   #432
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,718
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men."

So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
Or, alternately, is it just possible to suggest that in common language usage the word 'man' might be used in more than one way (even within the same sentence) without someone invoking 1984?

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 10:48 AM   #433
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,579
Since the thread is stupid anyway, Iíll use the space to pontificate a little.

Though I hella support 90% of the transgender stuff I see, I have to admit I have a hard time really imagining it cause I donít identify very strongly with my gender. If I woke up tomorrow and the world started misgendering me Iíd pretty much just be a little baffled. Would people make fun of me for looking feminine? That would be pretty ironic! But I canít imagine Iíd really try to put my foot down on the issue of my real gender. Itíd be so much easier to play along. I could get a shorter haircut. I already have a unisex name, which is handy. Iíd probably feel a little more self conscious about being short and quick to cry. Iíd need the exact same amount of help from acquaintances in picking out clothes other people would find reasonable on me. And knowing everyone sees me as a dude would probably be a confidence boost. Iíd love knowing straight guys who hang out with me definitely arenít holding out any romantic hopes.

In private Iíd probably tell people I was close to that I was really a woman. I donít think itíd bother me if they scoffed or thought I was being weird or lying to them. Itíd just be whatís true anyway. Iím incapable of doubting it so I donít think Iíd be knocked off base or anything. Itíd just be weird. Relationships would be a little harder but I like unusual people anyway so Iím sure I could work with it.

But what I CAN imagine is what a pain in the ass all that would be if I really cared, if I loved makeup and dresses, or if I just really loved being female as part of my identity. For me, thereís... really nothing to give up. But if there was? I canít feel it myself but I can imagine it. Itís got to be ridiculous. Like the world just doesnít believe you about something so ridiculously true. Like what the **** do you care that much what my gender is that youíre gonna contradict me on it? THAT part I can sympathise with.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 02:25 PM   #434
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,718
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men."

So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
Also wonder where that spare "La" came from in Paglia's name...

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2019, 07:01 PM   #435
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,492
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not so much making an argument as expressing a certain sentiment against a certain aspect of the liberal worldview. An argument for which can certainly be defended but which I don't particularly have the intention of doing so, especially since it would take us too far off track for this thread. Perhaps the sentiment can best be expressed by the following:

Conservatives: "Ten white men should own half the planet!"
Liberals: "No! Five of them should be women, and maybe one of them should be black!"
Ultra-Conservative: "Women are **** when compared to men!"

SJW: "The best woman is a washed up, white, former male, and decathlete, who once appeared on a reality show!"

Me: "Not really seeing the difference at this point."
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 02:10 AM   #436
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 70,676
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Since the thread is stupid anyway, Iíll use the space to pontificate a little.

Though I hella support 90% of the transgender stuff I see, I have to admit I have a hard time really imagining it cause I donít identify very strongly with my gender. If I woke up tomorrow and the world started misgendering me Iíd pretty much just be a little baffled. Would people make fun of me for looking feminine? That would be pretty ironic! But I canít imagine Iíd really try to put my foot down on the issue of my real gender. Itíd be so much easier to play along. I could get a shorter haircut. I already have a unisex name, which is handy. Iíd probably feel a little more self conscious about being short and quick to cry. Iíd need the exact same amount of help from acquaintances in picking out clothes other people would find reasonable on me. And knowing everyone sees me as a dude would probably be a confidence boost. Iíd love knowing straight guys who hang out with me definitely arenít holding out any romantic hopes.

In private Iíd probably tell people I was close to that I was really a woman. I donít think itíd bother me if they scoffed or thought I was being weird or lying to them. Itíd just be whatís true anyway. Iím incapable of doubting it so I donít think Iíd be knocked off base or anything. Itíd just be weird. Relationships would be a little harder but I like unusual people anyway so Iím sure I could work with it.

But what I CAN imagine is what a pain in the ass all that would be if I really cared, if I loved makeup and dresses, or if I just really loved being female as part of my identity. For me, thereís... really nothing to give up. But if there was? I canít feel it myself but I can imagine it. Itís got to be ridiculous. Like the world just doesnít believe you about something so ridiculously true. Like what the **** do you care that much what my gender is that youíre gonna contradict me on it? THAT part I can sympathise with.
Please define the following words:

Gender
Female
Transgender
__________________
"Someone is a woman if she has no functional SRY gene, or no functional androgen response." Rolfe
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 05:39 PM   #437
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,641
I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 06:11 PM   #438
BrooklynBaby
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 879
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.
Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 06:18 PM   #439
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 70,676
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.
Such as transmen, perhaps!
__________________
"Someone is a woman if she has no functional SRY gene, or no functional androgen response." Rolfe
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 06:21 PM   #440
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,487
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.
You are not up on your modern lexicon.

A male bodied T would be someone with a male body, but a female gender identity, i.e. a transwoman. According to the modern notions, then that person is really and truly a woman, despite having a penis. So, if that person is attracted to men, then that makes the male-bodied T a heterosexual woman, and therefore certainly not G, nor even L. If "she" is also attracted to women, she could be a B, but that would be true regardless of T status.

There will be a quiz on this, possibly in the HR office, or at a hate speech trial if you live in Britain.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.