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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 28th July 2019, 03:35 PM   #521
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This is an interesting thread. https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/stat...58088964636675


There's also a Threadreaderapp unroll, but these don't last forever.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:50 AM   #522
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If you fancy bleaching your eyeballs, search the person responsible for that crap - it is exactly what you'd expect. I don't blame the beauticians for not wanting to go anywhere near it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:29 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Then, there's the trans woman who's claiming hate crimes because female beauticians won't wax its pubic hair: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...triarchy-women

My suggestion is a woman should offer to wax its scrotal area, but heat the wax to a 212 degrees Celsius, then claim to have mixed up the scales.

Piece of garbage, doing real harm to actual transgender women.
Interesting follow on from their "I just want a fade" from Barbers campaign a year so back

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/the-wirel...e-only-for-men

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...=mailsignoutmd
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:56 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

I actually think most Americans feel the same way as well. Remember this is just an obscure forum in a dark corner of the internet - it just seems like most people give a damn about it. Most do not.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:00 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So Yaniv is back in the news. He's trying to organize a topless swimming event for 12 year old girls (well, not only girls, and not only 12, but including them). Parents would be excluded. I guess suing immigrants for refusing to wax his hairy balls isn't enough fun for him anymore. Oh, Canada.
Has anyone watched 'Happy'?
That person in the link reminds me of sonny shine..
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:38 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Has anyone watched 'Happy'?
That person in the link reminds me of sonny shine..
I've seen "Happy!" (don't forget the exclamation mark). And yeah, there's definitely some similarities there.
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Old 30th July 2019, 12:31 AM   #527
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The Daily Caller is that white supremacist rag, isn't it? The one that white supremacist Tucker Carlson set up?
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Old 31st July 2019, 09:42 AM   #528
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So I just heard about a youtube channel that's rapidly gaining popularity, called ContraPoints. It's a trans woman. The videos are surprisingly good for YouTube.

Here's one about gender critical feminism:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Here's where I heard about this channel:

How YouTube's Left Is Changing Minds
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:28 AM   #529
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Transcript?
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:50 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So I just heard about a youtube channel that's rapidly gaining popularity, called ContraPoints. It's a trans woman. The videos are surprisingly good for YouTube.

Here's one about gender critical feminism:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Here's where I heard about this channel:

How YouTube's Left Is Changing Minds
ContraPoints of the "If people ask you to define your terms then they're trolls" fame? 10 points on the Crackpot Index right there, and let's not forget that her entire arguments are predicated on refusing to define her terms and calling people who demand her to do so "trolls." If she ever manages to produce something resembling a coherent argument, as opposed to Sokal-like ramblings whose only redeeming feature is having the right soundbites for the progressive crowd, then let me know. Otherwise I've wasted enough of my time with that.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:21 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So I just heard about a youtube channel that's rapidly gaining popularity, called ContraPoints.
Good video. I don’t quite buy all of it, but she does a fine job making her arguments and she comes across as incredibly relatable. Nice change of pace to see someone making arguments instead of just wokescolding the other side.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
ContraPoints of the "If people ask you to define your terms then they're trolls" fame?
I sort of wish there was a name for this particular form of putting one's head in the sand. Perhaps it should be called the "remember how they were wrong about something unrelated" fallacy, but in Latin.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:50 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Transcript?
If you click my second link that says "How YouTube's Left Is Changing Minds" immediately below the first image there should a button you can click for the transcript.

As far as the youtube video itself, I don't think there's a transcript and it's very much a visual medium. Her videos contain lots of jokes and memes that are designed to appeal to the young youtube generation, including visual gags. It's supposed to be a a witty kind of antidote to the alt-right youtube channels. It would be like reading the lyrics of a popular song: without the accompanying music, most of the art is missing.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
ContraPoints of the "If people ask you to define your terms then they're trolls" fame?
I literally just discovered this channel yesterday so I don't know what you're talking about, but I personally didn't have any trouble understanding any of the terms she uses.
Quote:
10 points on the Crackpot Index right there, and let's not forget that her entire arguments are predicated on refusing to define her terms and calling people who demand her to do so "trolls." If she ever manages to produce something resembling a coherent argument, as opposed to Sokal-like ramblings whose only redeeming feature is having the right soundbites for the progressive crowd, then let me know. Otherwise I've wasted enough of my time with that.
OK. If there's any terms you want defined I'd be happy to look up the definitions. Like I said, I personally did not encounter any weird jargon or arguments that are hard to understand.
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Old 31st July 2019, 05:04 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Good video. I don’t quite buy all of it, but she does a fine job making her arguments and she comes across as incredibly relatable. Nice change of pace to see someone making arguments instead of just wokescolding the other side.
I'm glad you agree. I too don't buy all of it, but it's fun to watch and relatable.

Here's the channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNv...J5E4EXMa65VYpA

I've only seen two of the videos and part of a third so far, but here's the other one I watched, about Jordan Peterson:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Instead of just getting outraged about him, or scolding, she actually takes his arguments seriously and engages with them.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:01 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Here's where I heard about this channel:

How YouTube's Left Is Changing Minds

It wasn't when I linked to it and people just dismissed it back in May?

Your article won't load for me, but I hope the mention 'Shaun' and 'Hbomberguy' as well.
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:14 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It wasn't when I linked to it and people just dismissed it back in May?

Your article won't load for me, but I hope the mention 'Shaun' and 'Hbomberguy' as well.
Sorry, I must have missed it.

Here's the URL:

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/ho...changing-minds

They do mention 'Hbomberguy' I believe. He's the one who did a Donkey Kong livestream marathon lasting over 50 hours I think? Not sure if 'Shaun' got a mention.
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Old 1st August 2019, 02:52 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Good video. I don’t quite buy all of it, but she does a fine job making her arguments and she comes across as incredibly relatable. Nice change of pace to see someone making arguments instead of just wokescolding the other side.



I sort of wish there was a name for this particular form of putting one's head in the sand. Perhaps it should be called the "remember how they were wrong about something unrelated" fallacy, but in Latin.
Dude, it's literally in the video. At the start she calls people demanding her to define her terms "trolls" (the so-called "trollish questions") before then going on to present an entire argument predicated on her not defining her terms.
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Old 1st August 2019, 02:55 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I literally just discovered this channel yesterday so I don't know what you're talking about, but I personally didn't have any trouble understanding any of the terms she uses.

OK. If there's any terms you want defined I'd be happy to look up the definitions. Like I said, I personally did not encounter any weird jargon or arguments that are hard to understand.
The term to be defined is "woman."
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Old 1st August 2019, 03:11 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The term to be defined is "woman."
I guess that's a pretty fair question. She does define towards the latter part of the video.
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Old 1st August 2019, 04:23 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Dude, it's literally in the video. At the start she calls people demanding her to define her terms "trolls" (the so-called "trollish questions") before then going on to present an entire argument predicated on her not defining her terms.
Dude, the entire video is predicated on the idea of answering "trollish questions" one by one because (as she points out) many people sincerely wonder about such things. She even gives credit where due when the question has a legit point. I'm not getting the sense you watch past the first couple minutes.
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Old 1st August 2019, 04:52 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I guess that's a pretty fair question. She does define towards the latter part of the video.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Dude, the entire video is predicated on the idea of answering "trollish questions" one by one because (as she points out) many people sincerely wonder about such things. She even gives credit where due when the question has a legit point. I'm not getting the sense you watch past the first couple minutes.
She declared the question of defining "woman" as a "trollish question" and then never got back to it in the rest of the video, entirely ignoring it. But as you seem to claim otherwise, what definition of "woman" did she give in the video?
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Old 1st August 2019, 05:42 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I guess that's a pretty fair question. She does define towards the latter part of the video.
I watched the whole thing, I don't recall that definition being given.
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Old 1st August 2019, 05:45 AM   #542
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Her take is basically that if you function as a woman in the world, that's what matters most. It's around nine minutes into the video.



It's a fair bit tautological (and assumes a certain degree of background knowledge which would be unavailable to anyone acquiring language for the first time) but there it is.
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Old 1st August 2019, 05:57 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Her take is basically that if you function as a woman in the world, that's what matters most. It's around nine minutes into the video.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e485344c4b.jpg
That's circular. I suppose getting only 2 points on the Crackpot Index (number 3 on the list) instead of 10 is an improvement. Besides, she later outright contradicts herself by arguing that performing femininity is not what makes transwomen women, netting another 3 points by number 4 on the list. The entire thing is an incoherent mess.
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Old 1st August 2019, 06:05 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
She declared the question of defining "woman" as a "trollish question" and then never got back to it in the rest of the video, entirely ignoring it. But as you seem to claim otherwise, what definition of "woman" did she give in the video?
At about 8:45 or 8:50 in the video, she endorses a view given by Catherine McKinnon:

Quote:
I always thought I don’t care how someone becomes a woman or a man; it does not matter to me. It is just part of their specificity, their uniqueness, like everyone else’s. Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I’m concerned, is a woman.
Not the definition I would choose, but that's how she defines it.

ETA: d4m10n beat me to it; I had to re-watch because I couldn't remember where in the video it was or the precise words.
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Old 1st August 2019, 06:09 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's circular.
It is indeed circular, but it isn't difficult to unpack.

There is a class of people who are treated differently than people like me in our society. They are more likely to be catcalled, sexually harassed, thought of as nurturing with children, diplomatic with peers, gossipy with friends, obsessed with personal appearance, [insert various feminine stereotypes here]. That's the "goes around being" part of MacKinnon's quote, and it's really not that difficult to notice unless you're attending an all-boys school.
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Old 1st August 2019, 06:23 AM   #546
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Socially, it's about the only definition that makes sense to me. It's certainly the most humane and tolerant one.

It relies heavily on the local norms of what it means to be a woman. Which is fine with me. It's not a complete or perfect or absolute answer, but no answer could be.

There are two big problems this answer doesn't solve, though: Women's sports and women's locker rooms.
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Old 1st August 2019, 07:13 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It is indeed circular, but it isn't difficult to unpack.

There is a class of people who are treated differently than people like me in our society. They are more likely to be catcalled, sexually harassed, thought of as nurturing with children, diplomatic with peers, gossipy with friends, obsessed with personal appearance, [insert various feminine stereotypes here]. That's the "goes around being" part of MacKinnon's quote, and it's really not that difficult to notice unless you're attending an all-boys school.
I think that you are only demonstrating how difficult it is to unpack.

You have a list of, as you point out, stereotypes. Does that really capture what "going around being a woman" means?
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Old 1st August 2019, 07:35 AM   #548
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The definition of a woman:
Quote:
Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I’m concerned, is a woman.
The definition of a man:
Quote:
Anybody who identifies as a man, wants to be a man, is going around being a man, as far as I’m concerned, is a man.
Yes?

And literally any action or behaviour could qualify both as "going around being a man" and "going around being a woman".
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Old 1st August 2019, 07:55 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You have a list of, as you point out, stereotypes. Does that really capture what "going around being a woman" means?
If men and women weren't treated differently in (numerous & varied) social situations, the quoted bit wouldn't have any distinguishable meaning, beyond just going around in the world.
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Old 1st August 2019, 08:05 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If men and women weren't treated differently in (numerous & varied) social situations, the quoted bit wouldn't have any distinguishable meaning, beyond just going around in the world.
So, to go around being a woman means to go around behaving as society expects a woman to behave?

To go around being a man means to go around behaving as society expects a man to behave?
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Old 1st August 2019, 08:24 AM   #551
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So, to go around being a woman means to go around behaving as society expects a woman to behave?

To go around being a man means to go around behaving as society expects a man to behave?
It depends.

The way I see it, gender (man, woman, other, etc.) is an intersection between biological sex and social norms. Being a man, in society, is some combination of being biologically male, and behaving the way society expects biological males to behave. Someone who isn't biologically male can still "be a man" by passing as a man according to society's expectations. In general, being able to pass as male should be sufficient to be treated and accepted as a male according to society's expectations, without regard to biological sex.

This is complicated by the feedback loop: Passing as a man depends on what society expects from biological men, which may not include biological women trying to pass as men.

I think your questions may be designed to oversimplify what is a complex and contentious issue. Why don't you tell us what you think the answers are, and why?
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Old 1st August 2019, 08:40 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So, to go around being a woman means to go around behaving as society expects a woman to behave?



To go around being a man means to go around behaving as society expects a man to behave?
This is not what I wrote, nor does it follow therefrom.

Please revisit post #545 and see if you find anything about conforming to gendered expectations, as opposed to simply acknowledging their existence.
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Old 1st August 2019, 09:40 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Yes?
No. Obviously. These are circular definitions: a man is someone who is being a man, and a woman is someone who is being a woman. That does not suffice for any legitimate linguistic purpose whatsoever.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:42 AM   #554
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I AGREE


This is ContraPoints' most recent video, I think.

Wherein she inhabits 4 different personalities who argue with each other in an attempt to come up with a best definition of womanhood that could be trans inclusive and acceptable to "rational skeptics" (hey, that's us!! Or at least how we like to think of ourselves). Ultimately she fails but the exercise is worthwhile I think. Maybe this is just one of those human things where "pure reason" alone is not the most helpful guide? Maybe we just need to have a little human empathy here and not demand some sort of mathematical proof before accepting trans claims?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 11:40 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


This is ContraPoints' most recent video, I think.

Wherein she inhabits 4 different personalities who argue with each other in an attempt to come up with a best definition of womanhood that could be trans inclusive and acceptable to "rational skeptics" (hey, that's us!! Or at least how we like to think of ourselves). Ultimately she fails but the exercise is worthwhile I think. Maybe this is just one of those human things where "pure reason" alone is not the most helpful guide? Maybe we just need to have a little human empathy here and not demand some sort of mathematical proof before accepting trans claims?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:49 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.

Pseudo-profundity in the service of stifling discussion.

Well done.

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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:51 PM   #557
Robin
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is not what I wrote, nor does it follow therefrom.

Please revisit post #545 and see if you find anything about conforming to gendered expectations, as opposed to simply acknowledging their existence.
Maybe you should revisit it. We are talking about people "going around being", not "going around acknowledging".

If "going around being a woman" relates to societal expectations then how could that mean anything else than conforming to those of expectations?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:04 PM   #558
Robin
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
l


I think your questions may be designed to oversimplify what is a complex and contentious issue. Why don't you tell us what you think the answers are, and why?
The question has to do with what other people mean by "man" and "woman", how can I tell other people what they mean by a word?

I don't think "going around being a woman" or "going around being a man" mean anything at all. Certainly I can't imagine how I would do either or why anyone would want to.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:24 PM   #559
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Pseudo-profundity in the service of stifling discussion.

Well done.

An undefined term in an argument, especially if the term is central to the argument, makes the argument informationally equivalent to a random string, to quite literally nonsense. Nothing pseudo about it, to the contrary.

Now, of course you could object to me objecting to nonsense, in which case you'll certainly allow me to participate in your discussion instead:

gooo ha ksk ks zdi ppp oooooo lala nuuuussq fjefs p fpdsjofdp! You bigots!
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:28 PM   #560
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The question has to do with what other people mean by "man" and "woman", how can I tell other people what they mean by a word?

I don't think "going around being a woman" or "going around being a man" mean anything at all. Certainly I can't imagine how I would do either or why anyone would want to.
There would actually be a proper definition if we said something like "a woman is someone who performs femininity" which, combined with the claim that locker rooms are separated by gender rather than sex (hence defining "woman" in terms of gender, femininity, rather than sex, female) leads us to "masculine females should use the men's facilities" or "only feminine people are real woman" or "women must perform femininity" or ... I suppose it fits with the anti-feminism in "their" positions (women must perform femininity).
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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