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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:48 PM   #561
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If "going around being a woman" relates to societal expectations then how could that mean anything else than conforming to those of expectations?
It could mean not conforming to them, which (in my limited experience) takes even more effort.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There would actually be a proper definition if we said something like "a woman is someone who performs femininity" . . .
How about someone who is generally expected to conform to feminine norms, regardless of the quality of her performance?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:51 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It could mean not conforming to them, which (in my limited experience) takes even more effort.
Which would entail that femininity-performing transwomen (such as herself) are not women, so I'm pretty sure that's not the definition she meant. I mean, it's also a proper definition (as in not circular or otherwise improper), that's true - but it seems the least likely one. And even if it were it is still directly contradicted a bit later in the video where she makes a whole deal about how (not) performing femininity is not what makes one a woman.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:05 PM   #563
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What a minefield. Who is going to judge whether I'm performing femininity well enough to be allowed into the women's locker room, for goodness sake? How long do I have to perform it for to get through the door? Do we let Pips Bunce in on the days he's being Pippa but not on the days he's being Philip? Or does he get a pass to either room any time on the basis that he performs masculinity sometimes and femininity other times?

What say we just go by the things that are objective and don't change. If you have a functional SRY gene and bioavailable androgens you know who you are and you stay the hell out of women's single-sex spaces, OK? Now doesn't that solve a lot of ambiguity?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:13 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It could mean not conforming to them, which (in my limited experience) takes even more effort.



How about someone who is generally expected to conform to feminine norms, regardless of the quality of her performance?
How about we define women as people with two X chromosomes?

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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:16 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How about someone who is generally expected to conform to feminine norms, regardless of the quality of her performance?
Nope, begs the question as to what properties one must have to be "generally expected to conform to feminine norms."
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:43 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
How about we define women as people with two X chromosomes?


How about we define women as people without a functional SRY gene (or alternatively, without bioavailable androgens)? That gets you round the immediate riposte from the trans lobby "but what about the women who are XY???" Or alternatively, "but what about the men with two X chromosomes?"
  • XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome, and these people are male, because the Y chromosome bearing the SRY gene means the foetus develops as male.
  • XX SRY-positive happens when the SRY gene, usually on the Y chromosome, is translocated on to an X chromosone, and these people are male because the SRY gene... etc.
  • XY Swyer's syndrome is where the SRY gene is either absent from the Y chromosome entirely or is non-functional, and these people are female because the absence of the SRY gene... etc.
  • XY CAIS is an interesting one, because these people do have a functional SRY gene on the Y chromosome, but the foetus develops down the female path because the body has no functioning androgen receptors, and these people are female.
This is just a clarification. If we talk about XX and XY this covers >99% of people but the trans activists will immediately weaponise the existence of rare intersex conditions where the XX/XY classification breaks down to prove that sex isn't binary and it's all a spectrum and nobody can tell what sex anyone is anyway.

Pin them down on the SRY gene and all that nitpicking goes away.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:05 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Which would entail that femininity-performing transwomen (such as herself) are not women, so I'm pretty sure that's not the definition she meant.
Okay, I'm clearly failing to get my point across here.

There are two distinct groups of people who are expected to conform to the norms of femininity: cis women and trans women.

One of those groups chooses that performance for themselves, whereas the other does not.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:08 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How about we define women as people without a functional SRY gene (or alternatively, without bioavailable androgens)?
This seems like a reasonable approach, if we are talking about who gets to experience women's sport (rather than, say, women's clothing).
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:09 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, I'm clearly failing to get my point across here.

There are two distinct groups of people who are expected to conform to the norms of femininity: cis women and trans women.

One of those groups chooses that performance for themselves, whereas the other does not.

Too complicated, too nebulous, way too open to interpretation and fraud.

Stick with the SRY gene. You know who you are. You got one (and you're not CAIS), stay the hell out of our spaces.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:14 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Stick with the SRY gene. You know who you are. You got one (and you're not CAIS), stay the hell out of our spaces.
I like that you're drawing a bright line, but you aren't exactly being persuasive here. Why should they want to obey your command?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 05:51 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This seems like a reasonable approach, if we are talking about who gets to experience women's sport (rather than, say, women's clothing).

Two points. First, the current capitulation to the trans cult's every demand means that the menz feelz even allow them into women's athletics events these days. Check up on Rachel MacKinnon, Fallon Fox and Laurel Hubbard for current examples. So you're at odds with the trans activists here. Maybe you're coming round to our point of view after all?

Second, who cares who "gets to experience women's clothing"? Seriously, what even is women's clothing, other than clothing cut and styled to fit a female body rather than a male one? As I don't think we're talking about Iran here, there's no law that prevents anyone from wearing what the hell they choose to wear, nor should there be, so that's a complete non-sequitur. We're not talking about women's clothing, we're talking about women's locker rooms, dormitories, prisons, domestic violence shelters and so on.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 06:14 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I like that you're drawing a bright line, but you aren't exactly being persuasive here. Why should they want to obey your command?

Why should anyone want to obey yours? I mean, it's nuts. Face it. You're proposing to substitute the proposition that people with male bodies (which is what I described, it's just that it seems necessary to be extremely precise in one's description these days to avoid about ten pages of obfuscation, nit-picking and general water-muddying) should use the men's facilities and people with female bodies should use the women's facilities.

Since you think it's OK to tell the women that it doesn't matter who showers next to them or who takes their clothes off next to them, there seems to be no reason we can't tell the (vastly smaller number of) men who have lady feelz that it doesn't matter who they shower next to or who they take their clothes off next to. Goose and gander sauce.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 06:48 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why should anyone want to obey yours?
I'm not making any commands; my usual recommendations in other threads have been to provide fully-private single-use stalls to be used seriatim, whenever possible.

Quote:
You're proposing to substitute the proposition that people with male bodies...should use the men's facilities and people with female bodies should use the women's facilities.
The invocation of "bodies" sounds rather like we're talking about external phenotypic markers rather than SRY genes and bioavailable androgens.

Quote:
Since you think it's OK to tell the women that it doesn't matter who showers next to them or who takes their clothes off next to them...
I'm thinking you've likely mistaken me for someone else here.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 08:19 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How about someone who is generally expected to conform to feminine norms, regardless of the quality of her performance?
Genuinely not getting what you mean. Going around being a woman is going around being someone generally expected to conform to feminine norms, but not necessarily doing so?
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Old 3rd August 2019, 02:37 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, I'm clearly failing to get my point across here.

There are two distinct groups of people who are expected to conform to the norms of femininity: cis women and trans women.
Expected by whom? I don't expect butch lesbians ("cis women") to conform to femininity, but I do expect effeminate gay men ("cis men") to conform to femininity. Drag queens are expected to conform to femininity yet they are adamant about themselves that they aren't actually women.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 03:17 AM   #576
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The whole idea is nonsense. Someone is a woman if he or she is "expected to perform femininity" by society, even if she doesn't? I've heard some crack-brained ideas in my time but that one takes the biscuit. As you say, that makes butch lesbians men and effeminate homosexual men and drag queens women.

Someone is a woman if she has no functional SRY gene, or no functional androgen response. It's not about clothes or makeup or mannerisms or artificial hormones or cosmetic surgery or a feeling in someone's head. It's about living in a female body, whatever you do about that or with that.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 03:20 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The invocation of "bodies" sounds rather like we're talking about external phenotypic markers rather than SRY genes and bioavailable androgens.

You think genes and hormone receptor sites exist in some sort of disembodied limbo? The genes and the hormone receptor sites determine whether the body you have belongs to the female class or the male class. And (leaving aside the tiny number of edge case DSD presentations), you know which you are.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 03:23 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The whole idea is nonsense.
Yes, it's also an improper definition. At least the "a woman is anyone who performs femininity" one was proper (in the sense of not being formally logically flawed such as being circular, not in the sense of it actually being a good or useful definition or anything).
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Old 3rd August 2019, 05:53 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How about we define women as people without a functional SRY gene (or alternatively, without bioavailable androgens)? That gets you round the immediate riposte from the trans lobby "but what about the women who are XY???" Or alternatively, "but what about the men with two X chromosomes?"
  • XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome, and these people are male, because the Y chromosome bearing the SRY gene means the foetus develops as male.
  • XX SRY-positive happens when the SRY gene, usually on the Y chromosome, is translocated on to an X chromosone, and these people are male because the SRY gene... etc.
  • XY Swyer's syndrome is where the SRY gene is either absent from the Y chromosome entirely or is non-functional, and these people are female because the absence of the SRY gene... etc.
  • XY CAIS is an interesting one, because these people do have a functional SRY gene on the Y chromosome, but the foetus develops down the female path because the body has no functioning androgen receptors, and these people are female.
Yes
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Old 3rd August 2019, 08:17 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
... my usual recommendations in other threads have been to provide fully-private single-use stalls to be used seriatim, whenever possible.

This bears unpacking. This is a workable solution to public lavatories and indeed changing rooms. It's not a good solution because it deprives women of their communal female-only washing and grooming space which they greatly value for reasons men seem not to understand or appreciate, but it is at least workable.

It is not a workable solution to shared sleeping accomodation. Is every youth hostel, boarding school, domestic violence refuge, prison and so on going to be obliged to provide single rooms for everyone?

It's also not a workable solution for situations where women do not wish to deal with people with male bodies, for whatever reason. Intimate grooming services. Intimate medical examinations. (That sign on the door of the breast screening clinic, "ladies only beyond this point". Women walk around in there naked from the waist up, and all the radiographers are female. Cervical smear testing, where not performed by a qualified doctor - or even if it is, because women can request a female doctor for such examinations.)

So even if we require every business and public body to spend a fortune converting all its lavatories to proper "unisex" format, and either give over a lot more space for this or accept that the queue for the loo is going to get massively worse to intolerable, there are still situations where we need to know who is female and who is male.

Objective physical criteria trump feelings in people's heads every time.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 09:30 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This bears unpacking. This is a workable solution to public lavatories and indeed changing rooms. It's not a good solution because it deprives women of their communal female-only washing and grooming space which they greatly value for reasons men seem not to understand or appreciate, but it is at least workable.
It also dramatically reduces the amount of floor space available for such activities.

It increases costs and reduces service availability.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 09:48 AM   #582
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Yes, that too. (I think I covered that later in the post.) In particular the removal of the banks of urinals would seriously slow down the males.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 05:07 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It also dramatically reduces the amount of floor space available for such activities.
Which floor plans are you looking at?

ETA: I happen to be at a restaurant just now, wherein women are queuing for a single person women's bathroom despite an obvious vacancy at the men's.
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Old 6th August 2019, 03:58 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is not a workable solution to shared sleeping accommodation. Is every youth hostel, boarding school, domestic violence refuge, prison and so on going to be obliged to provide single rooms for everyone?
It is patently silly to suggest that the optimal design solution for 21st century restrooms, changing rooms, or showers is also the best solution for communal settings such as prisons, hostels, etc. Unless you’re pushing sex-segregation across the board, it probably wouldn’t even occur to you that we need an all-singing all-dancing solution which fits every possible situation.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's also not a workable solution for situations where women do not wish to deal with people with male bodies, for whatever reason.
Surely we can agree that some reasons are much better than others? My mother used to attend women’s only Bible studies because of the ancient patriarchal prohibition on women instructing men. Is this sort of sex-segregation beneficial to society?

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That sign on the door of the breast screening clinic, "ladies only beyond this point". Women walk around in there naked from the waist up, and all the radiographers are female.
This is going to get complicated, since “screening mammography is currently suggested for transgender women with risk factors, including those receiving hormone treatment over 5 years.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773616/

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Cervical smear testing, where not performed by a qualified doctor - or even if it is, because women can request a female doctor for such examinations.
I’ve never yet seen a good argument against a patient saying she doesn’t want to get a cervical smear from an OB/GYN who has never experienced the procedure herself. Indeed, this seems like a fair and reasonable request. Are social justice activists arguing otherwise?

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So even if we require every business and public body to spend a fortune converting all its lavatories to proper "unisex" format…there are still situations where we need to know who is female and who is male.
I did not suggest the former approach, nor have I denied the latter claim.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:45 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which floor plans are you looking at?

ETA: I happen to be at a restaurant just now, wherein women are queuing for a single person women's bathroom despite an obvious vacancy at the men's.
My yoga studio has men's, women's and one unisex toilet/shower/changing room. There are actually two women's changing rooms, one of which is very small. I could accommodate transwomen by letting them use the single unisex toilet/shower that is single use.

On the other hand if I were to turn the whole space into single use changing stalls/showers, I'd have to lose 2 showers and could probably fit in 7 changing stalls.

But it's a yoga studio. We have classes, so everyone comes and goes at approximately the same time. At most we'll have around 70 people coming at once (2 classes starting at the same time). Right now there's never any wait for the changing rooms because people can change together, though it gets crowded. There is a wait for the showers and some people choose not to shower rather than wait, but it would get worse if I lost 2 showers.

So everyone would have to start showing up earlier in order to get ready for class on time. Some would probably choose to go somewhere else instead, though as some people left the need to show up earlier would be eased and we'd reach some new equilibrium (with fewer people).

Alternatively I could get a bigger space. I'm in a building and there are more spaces available on my floor. Potentially in six months or a year the neighbours might move out and I could take over their space and increase my rent by one third and turn the whole space into changing rooms. That would probably give me the capacity to get people changing at the current rate (possibly more comfortably than at present). Given that I'd be serving the same number of customers but with increased costs I'd probably need to increase prices.
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Old 6th September 2019, 07:54 PM   #586
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Caster Semenya joins South African football (soccer) team JVW

Originally Posted by BBC News
Two-time Olympic 800m gold medallist Caster Semenya has joined a South African women's football team.

The 28-year-old is unable to compete without taking testosterone-reducing drugs following a rule change by the IAAF, athletics' governing body. It means she cannot defend her 800m World Championship title in Doha this month - though she is fighting the rule change through the courts.

She is now training with Gauteng-based women's football club JVW.

The three-time world champion, who announced in July that she would not be defending her 800m world title, cannot start playing for JVW until the 2020 season, having joined outside the South African transfer window. "I am looking forward to this new journey, I appreciate the love and support I already get from the team," Semenya told the club website.

JVW FC, was formed in 2013 by current South Africa Women's captain, Janine van Wyk, aiming to "identify, develop, improve and expose" female footballers. The club is one of the top sides in the league for Gauteng province - the main women's football league in South Africa is split into nine provincial competitions.

Club founder Van Wyk told the BBC that Semenya has "not given up running at all". She said: "She's on a break at the moment which is why she has time on her hands to do something different.

"She's had two training sessions with the team and you could see her football is there, but we still need obviously to work on her a little bit because it's very different to track and field...
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49605649
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:34 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Too complicated, too nebulous, way too open to interpretation and fraud.

Stick with the SRY gene. You know who you are. You got one (and you're not CAIS), stay the hell out of our spaces.
So you want every one to be gene tested?
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:40 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
My yoga studio has men's, women's and one unisex toilet/shower/changing room. There are actually two women's changing rooms, one of which is very small. I could accommodate transwomen by letting them use the single unisex toilet/shower that is single use.

On the other hand if I were to turn the whole space into single use changing stalls/showers, I'd have to lose 2 showers and could probably fit in 7 changing stalls.

But it's a yoga studio. We have classes, so everyone comes and goes at approximately the same time. At most we'll have around 70 people coming at once (2 classes starting at the same time). Right now there's never any wait for the changing rooms because people can change together, though it gets crowded. There is a wait for the showers and some people choose not to shower rather than wait, but it would get worse if I lost 2 showers.

So everyone would have to start showing up earlier in order to get ready for class on time. Some would probably choose to go somewhere else instead, though as some people left the need to show up earlier would be eased and we'd reach some new equilibrium (with fewer people).

Alternatively I could get a bigger space. I'm in a building and there are more spaces available on my floor. Potentially in six months or a year the neighbours might move out and I could take over their space and increase my rent by one third and turn the whole space into changing rooms. That would probably give me the capacity to get people changing at the current rate (possibly more comfortably than at present). Given that I'd be serving the same number of customers but with increased costs I'd probably need to increase prices.
My work has a load of older buildings with mens, womens, and disabled.

All the buildings that have been built since about 10 years ago have toilets which are unisex, which is properly closed off cubicles, which contain a bog, a sink with a mirror.

The later actually seem to take up less space as you are not having to build two separate public rooms, and no massive opened out bit with sinks, in each one.

Edit: and some of the cubicles are bigger for disabled
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Old 6th September 2019, 09:39 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
My work has a load of older buildings with mens, womens, and disabled.

All the buildings that have been built since about 10 years ago have toilets which are unisex, which is properly closed off cubicles, which contain a bog, a sink with a mirror.

The later actually seem to take up less space as you are not having to build two separate public rooms, and no massive opened out bit with sinks, in each one.

Edit: and some of the cubicles are bigger for disabled
That makes sense to me, but I think the issue is different for changing rooms. The problem isn't so much unisex rooms, as the need for separate cubicles for changing in. In sex-segregated changing rooms that's not necessary and so you can a lot more people changing clothes per unit time in the same amount of space.

Toilets are different since, unisex or not, that already need separate cubicles. In that case if we're just looking at the efficiency of the use of space unisex toilets make sense (there are other issues that I'm not weighing in on in the post).
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Old 6th September 2019, 10:03 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That makes sense to me, but I think the issue is different for changing rooms. The problem isn't so much unisex rooms, as the need for separate cubicles for changing in. In sex-segregated changing rooms that's not necessary and so you can a lot more people changing clothes per unit time in the same amount of space.

Toilets are different since, unisex or not, that already need separate cubicles. In that case if we're just looking at the efficiency of the use of space unisex toilets make sense (there are other issues that I'm not weighing in on in the post).
Yeah know what you mean

The ones at work are great for toilets, but I wouldn't want to have to try and change in one. Well I have, for indoor football, but she was a bit of a mission.

And then putting in showers always wipe out any space savings
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 7th September 2019, 02:15 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Caster Semenya joins South African football (soccer) team JVW
That is truly hilarious.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...but she was a bit of a mission...
Sexist!
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Old 8th September 2019, 05:15 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So you want every one to be gene tested?

What part of "you know who you are" did you not read?
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