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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 25th June 2019, 11:27 AM   #321
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Depends if you are on a trans friendly employer and own a house then they are less of issues. Using bathrooms and being outed are constant issues for all trans people. These are certainly all issues, why do we have to deal with them in some specific sequence?
Priorities.

Don't you do that in your life?

I have $20 and need food for dinner, but I really want that new Post Malone CD.

Wut do?
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Old 25th June 2019, 11:33 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Do you then consider the existence of souls demonstrated because you can ask people and some will say "yes I have a soul"?
Funny.
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Old 25th June 2019, 11:40 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Funny.
I'll take that as a yes.
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Old 25th June 2019, 01:41 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. Actual sexual biological differences that you can't change (outside of actual medical sexual reassignment surgery).

2. Social roles placed on the sexes (Men have to do this, Women have to do this, Girls are expected to do this, boys are expected to do this) that we should be working to get rid of.

3. A magical third category I keep getting told exists that seems to consist of nothing but the parts of #2 that people want to keep for the sole purpose of subverting.

What am I missing? What variable am I not accounting for?
Re: the highlighted
completely agree, social roles of gender seem to be a big part of the issue and we should be getting rid of them.

Get rid of the idea that certain genders should act a certain way, then genders are free to act anyway they want.

End result could possibly be that everyone is ok with their own gender, no need to try and fit a 'role', because the 'roles' don't exist anymore.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:44 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'll take that as a yes.
Why would you do that?
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:47 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why would you do that?
It matches the serious tone of the post it's replying to, I think.
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Old 25th June 2019, 03:25 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why would you do that?
Because that was what was being asked for, an experiment that could be performed to demonstrate the existence of someone's gender identity that could not equally be said to demonstrate the existence of someone's soul.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, by mumblethrax's argument a soul is phenomenal because the same experiment that allows you to determine someone's gender identity (namely asking them "do you have a gender identity?") also allows you to determine someone's soul (namely asking them "do you have a soul?"). That is, unless mumblethrax comes up with a different experiment to determine someone's gender identity that is not based on merely asking the person in question.
Darat proposed the experiment "you ask people" so I asked whether he then thereby agreed that the existence of someone's soul could be determined by the same experiment. He simply stated "Funny" in response, and since I have no interest in playing these games I decided to take that as a yes.
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Old 25th June 2019, 03:41 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
social roles of gender seem to be a big part of the issue and we should be getting rid of them.
Do you have a persuasive argument that every gendered aspect of modern life does more harm than good?

Women's fashion? Women's sport? Women's locker rooms? Women's conferences? Hen parties?

I'm a bit skeptical whether you've thought this stance through, front-to-back.
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Old 25th June 2019, 04:48 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Do you have a persuasive argument that every gendered aspect of modern life does more harm than good?

Women's fashion? Women's sport? Women's locker rooms? Women's conferences? Hen parties?

I'm a bit skeptical whether you've thought this stance through, front-to-back.
my issue is with gender roles. When people feel unhappy with themselves because they dont fit into a particular gender role, it's the gender role that is the problem and not the people. Just be yourself.

Get rid of gender expectations and maybe there would be less people getting hung up about their gender, cos it just wouldn't matter.
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Old 25th June 2019, 04:54 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
my issue is with gender roles. When people feel unhappy with themselves because they dont fit into a particular gender role, it's the gender role that is the problem and not the people...
What sorts of gendered roles would you seek to eliminate and how? A few examples would be super helpful here.
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Old 25th June 2019, 05:08 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What sorts of gendered roles would you seek to eliminate and how? A few examples would be super helpful here.
All of them.
How?
By not teaching our offspring to conform to them. If they want to thats fine, but there should be no pressure to conform to them.

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Old 25th June 2019, 05:19 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
By not teaching our offspring to conform to them. If they want to thats fine, but there should be no pressure to conform to them.
So it's okay to keep all sorts of gender roles around, but only if they are informally socially enforced by kindergarteners and grade schoolers (not to mention reinforced by mass marketers) rather than taught by parents?
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Old 25th June 2019, 05:39 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So it's okay to keep all sorts of gender roles around, but only if they are informally socially enforced by kindergarteners and grade schoolers (not to mention reinforced by mass marketers) rather than taught by parents?
Oh, that's a lot of words you put into my mouth, lol.

Anyway, no, there should not be any gender roles at all, there should be no pressure from society to conform to a role because of gender.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of people who struggle with gender issues, are doing so because of a mismatch between how they feel and how they feel they feel they should feel according to social pressure regarding gender roles.

EDIT: For example
You're getting bullied at school, everyone tells you to be a man and stand up to them,
but you're thinking to yourself
'no way, that's the last thing i would do, I'd rather run away, does that make me not a man? if that's what a man would do then maybe I'm not a man? It's not what I would do? Hmm I dont feel like a man'
etc etc
gender roles...

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Old 25th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I'm of the opinion that a lot of people who struggle with gender issues, are doing so because of a mismatch between how they feel and how they feel they feel they should feel according to social pressure regarding gender roles.
Even one single example would be helpful here. Gendered roles and gendered clothing and gendered hairstyles and gendered grooming abound. Do you really think any human society is likely to give them up? Have even the most egalitarian societies made progress towards, say, unisex hairstyles, clothing, or toys?

EDIT: Just now saw your example. In my experience, other boys encouraged this sort of manliness, even when parents counseled a different approach.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:54 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Anyway, no, there should not be any gender roles at all, there should be no pressure from society to conform to a role because of gender.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of people who struggle with gender issues, are doing so because of a mismatch between how they feel and how they feel they feel they should feel according to social pressure regarding gender roles.
This seems to me like a textbook case of Chesterton's fence. You see that these social institutions have some cost, and so you want to get rid of them. But what if they provide some benefit? What if they're helpful to people who can conform to them? How do you know that getting rid of them won't do more harm than good?

Long-standing social institutions don't generally spring up randomly. They usually serve a purpose. Sometimes that purpose no longer applies, sometimes it isn't a good purpose. But they aren't pointless. They have a reason for existing. And if you don't understand what that purpose is, then you cannot understand the consequences of getting rid of it. You cannot know whether it's a good idea or a bad idea to do so.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:21 PM   #336
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Lol, do any of you actually go outside and interact with other human beings?

Like ever?

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Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 0. Remain civil.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:31 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Long-standing social institutions don't generally spring up randomly. They usually serve a purpose. Sometimes that purpose no longer applies, sometimes it isn't a good purpose. But they aren't pointless.
What I find fascinating here is that the example provided has a very obvious purpose. Someone needs to stand up to bullies, may as well make that a masculine virtue. Not all masculinity is toxic; sometimes a lack of risk aversion may be socially beneficial.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:42 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This seems to me like a textbook case of Chesterton's fence. You see that these social institutions have some cost, and so you want to get rid of them. But what if they provide some benefit? What if they're helpful to people who can conform to them? How do you know that getting rid of them won't do more harm than good?

Long-standing social institutions don't generally spring up randomly. They usually serve a purpose. Sometimes that purpose no longer applies, sometimes it isn't a good purpose. But they aren't pointless. They have a reason for existing. And if you don't understand what that purpose is, then you cannot understand the consequences of getting rid of it. You cannot know whether it's a good idea or a bad idea to do so.

Well, for instance, there's dating. How's a guy supposed to let his preferred potential partners know he's a Bad Boy who will hit them up for bail money, treat them badly, and cheat on them, without gender-stereotyped clothing, grooming details, and mannerisms? Can, say, diamond stud earrings be an adequate substitute for a Rolex in conveying that a guy is a total jerk but rich enough to be worth a few dates anyhow?

We'd end up needing a hankie code that would make Chinese writing seem straightforward.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:57 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Well, for instance, there's dating. How's a guy supposed to let his preferred potential partners know he's a Bad Boy who will hit them up for bail money, treat them badly, and cheat on them, without gender-stereotyped clothing, grooming details, and mannerisms? Can, say, diamond stud earrings be an adequate substitute for a Rolex in conveying that a guy is a total jerk but rich enough to be worth a few dates anyhow?

We'd end up needing a hankie code that would make Chinese writing seem straightforward.
I know you're being unserious, but we actually already have such a code. Most societies do. And while it's way more sophisticated than the simple hanky code, it's been around so long, and accreted semantics so gradually, that most of us have little difficulty interpreting it. Some people do, though. And others like to mess with it, the way a poet might mess with grammar or syntax. Which is the right way to think about it, really. A code this complex is really a language, with degrees of ambiguity and flexibility of meaning that codes really can't manage or produce.
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Old 25th June 2019, 08:04 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What I find fascinating here is that the example provided has a very obvious purpose. Someone needs to stand up to bullies, may as well make that a masculine virtue. Not all masculinity is toxic; sometimes a lack of risk aversion may be socially beneficial.
I was perfectly happy for my sister to come to my rescue when I was being bullied at school. No-one would call her masculine.

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Old 25th June 2019, 08:07 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Compromise and accept that you are a trape phobler.
Context is always everything, but triply so for this one.
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Old 25th June 2019, 08:16 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I was perfectly happy for my sister to come to my rescue when I was being bullied at school. No-one would call her masculine.
Not twice, anyways.
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Old 25th June 2019, 08:23 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not twice, anyways. : D
"Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"

"No, have you?"
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Old 25th June 2019, 11:52 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Because that was what was being asked for, an experiment that could be performed to demonstrate the existence of someone's gender identity that could not equally be said to demonstrate the existence of someone's soul.







Darat proposed the experiment "you ask people" so I asked whether he then thereby agreed that the existence of someone's soul could be determined by the same experiment. He simply stated "Funny" in response, and since I have no interest in playing these games I decided to take that as a yes.
Even funnier.
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Old 26th June 2019, 01:08 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"

"No, have you?"
Great reference from a great movie.
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Old 26th June 2019, 02:28 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Lol, do any of you actually go outside and interact with other human beings?
Convincing argument!
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:15 AM   #347
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Can someone suggest a method for me to determine my own gender identity?
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:32 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can someone suggest a method for me to determine my own gender identity?
Depends. Which one would you want?
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:39 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Depends. Which one would you want?
I'm not choosy.
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:27 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can someone suggest a method for me to determine my own gender identity?
Go to your local department store and see which sorts of clothes make you happy.

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Old 26th June 2019, 07:27 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can someone suggest a method for me to determine my own gender identity?
Be careful... you wouldn't want to assume your own gender. That would make you a bigot against yourself.
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Old 26th June 2019, 07:55 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know you're being unserious, but we actually already have such a code. Most societies do. And while it's way more sophisticated than the simple hanky code, it's been around so long, and accreted semantics so gradually, that most of us have little difficulty interpreting it. Some people do, though. And others like to mess with it, the way a poet might mess with grammar or syntax. Which is the right way to think about it, really. A code this complex is really a language, with degrees of ambiguity and flexibility of meaning that codes really can't manage or produce.

Well, that's kind of my point. Most of the symbols of that language are stereotyped by gender; that is to say, their meanings are contingent on a perceived gender context. Sure it can all be redesigned (or as a better metaphor, re-evolved after the hypothetical mass extinction event of nullifying all gender behavior expectations) but it's a big project and there's a lot of inertia in the system.
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Old 26th June 2019, 08:32 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What I find fascinating here is that the example provided has a very obvious purpose. Someone needs to stand up to bullies, may as well make that a masculine virtue. Not all masculinity is toxic; sometimes a lack of risk aversion may be socially beneficial.
Oh yeah I agree that standing up to bullies can solve the problem more often than not, that wasn't really my point.
My point in my example was that it becomes a problem when the bullied person takes the gendered phrase literally, they can start to measure themselves against that gender role and find themselves feeling as if they don't fit.
Why make it a masculine virtue, wouldn't it be better to just make it a virtue?
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Old 26th June 2019, 08:59 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Oh yeah I agree that standing up to bullies can solve the problem more often than not, that wasn't really my point.
My point in my example was that it becomes a problem when the bullied person takes the gendered phrase literally, they can start to measure themselves against that gender role and find themselves feeling as if they don't fit.
Why make it a masculine virtue, wouldn't it be better to just make it a virtue?
Well, there's the biological differences, which means that on average a man is going to have more size, mass, and strength with which to resist and drive off a bully. So that role of physical protector is going to end up being a male role, and the virtues of that role are going to be seen as masculine virtues. Not that women can't be big and strong, or small and strong, or small and fierce, etc. But we're talking about social norms and expectations evolving organically over (tens of) thousands of years, in feedback loops with biological differences on average.

---

But whatever. How about a much more modern gender role, p0lka? How do you feel about gender roles like "professional women's basketball player" or "women's world cup soccer forward"?

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Old 26th June 2019, 09:14 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Go to your local department store and see which sorts of clothes make you happy.

https://twitter.com/BlueBallSkeptic/...87889960841217
By that logic cross-dressers (ie those who like to wear clothes typically associated with the other sex yet who don't identify as transgender) don't exist. ETA: and it appears cross-dressers outnumber transgenders by about an order of magnitude, so your proposal doesn't even work in a statistical sense.
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Old 26th June 2019, 09:18 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Even funnier.
If you have a point to make then make it, you're getting close to just trolling now.
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Old 26th June 2019, 09:36 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Why make it a masculine virtue, wouldn't it be better to just make it a virtue?
Depends on whether you believe young men and young women are equally inclined towards and competent at the art of interpersonal violence.
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Old 26th June 2019, 11:54 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
...it appears cross-dressers outnumber transgenders by about an order of magnitude, so your proposal doesn't even work in a statistical sense.
Okay, so I wasn't being entirely serious, but now I'm interested.

Are you including those who cross-dress only occasionally, rather than trying to present an opposite-sexed gender expression on a daily basis? I'd be surprised if consistent cross-dressers exist in significant numbers compared to those who identify as trans every day.
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:19 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, so I wasn't being entirely serious, but now I'm interested.

Are you including those who cross-dress only occasionally, rather than trying to present an opposite-sexed gender expression on a daily basis? I'd be surprised if consistent cross-dressers exist in significant numbers compared to those who identify as trans every day.
I was going off this (pdf)
Quote:
PREVALENCE:
As mentioned above, it is very difficult to estimate the prevalence of cross-dressing in western society, with many cross-dressing women publicly invisible through societal acceptance and many cross-dressing men publicly invisible through being socially unaccepted and therefore forced behind closed doors. However one well-respected paper broaching the subject of the prevalence of transsexualism, has suggested that in the United States, conservative estimates of the number of cross-dressing males indicate a prevalence of between two and five percent of all adult males
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:20 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you have a point to make then make it, you're getting close to just trolling now.
You are very funny.
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