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24th April 2021, 04:55 PM | #1 |
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Commemoration Of War Dead
Today is Anzac Day in Australia. It is a day when we commemorate the death of those who died fighting in war. We have one other similar day "Remembrance Day" on the 11th of November (11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month).
Just wondering about similar commemorations in other countries and just wondering how everybody feels about it. Good and wholesome tradition or is it just glorification of war? |
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24th April 2021, 06:03 PM | #2 |
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Gonna be hard to get good people to sacrifice their lives in a just war if you don't glorify such sacrifices.
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24th April 2021, 07:06 PM | #3 | |||
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The latter.
"The war to end all wars" said it all. It took a mere 20 years to do it all again. I hate ANZAC Day events with a passion. I said to Mrs A this morning that you can bet your life not a single RSA in NZ or RSL in Aussie would play And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda today, but it's what they should be playing. Then read Ben Elton's The First Casualty, or just recite Owens' Dulce et Decorum Est. Here's the ultimate version of ATBPWM, described by NME (I think) as Shane MacGowan chewing over the lyrics before spitting them out in anger at the stupidity of it.
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24th April 2021, 07:12 PM | #4 |
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I just opened up Al J after that post and this story on Vietnam objectors in Aussie came up. Well worth a look: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...arks-anzac-day
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24th April 2021, 07:49 PM | #5 |
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The two songs that Australians associate with today are Redgum’s I Was Only 19 and Eric Bogle’s And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Both are about death and the way war leaves young men with mental and physical wounds. The Anzac ceremonies are somber occasions without glorification. I am sure the veterans I know wouldn’t allow such a thing.
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24th April 2021, 08:04 PM | #6 |
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I can’t see how recognition of objectors would fit into the service but somewhere we should have had mention of veteran suicide and mental health, issues that the government has had to be pushed into doing something about.
Edit: My experience was of the service in Darwin but it looks like someone spoke up: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/veterans...y-dawn-service |
24th April 2021, 08:17 PM | #7 |
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Thanks for the link. I was stunned by this excerpt: "At least 400 Australian defence force veterans have died by suicide since 2001 compared with 41 deaths in combat in Afghanistan during the same period." I tend to agree with you about the ceremonies being war glorification. Mind you, as I was born in Sweden, I don't have any relations in the past who marched to war. |
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24th April 2021, 08:18 PM | #8 |
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24th April 2021, 08:25 PM | #9 |
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24th April 2021, 08:34 PM | #10 |
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24th April 2021, 09:11 PM | #11 |
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Well I know the ceremonies are all about remembering those, who were killed or maimed in those terrible wars, and not about raising a battle cry, but there could be a feeling nurtured in the breast of those participating, that this is a noble pursuit. Saying it is a glorification of war may be a bit of an exaggeration however. I just think that war may be best forgotten. As an atheist I don't think those who gave their lives are up there, sitting on a cloud, and getting something out of this. |
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25th April 2021, 12:33 AM | #12 |
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I see ANZAC Day as just looking at one side of the coin.
Yes, it's all very tragic when people are killed in war. But there shouldn't be war in the first place. I've never been to an ANZAC Day service. |
25th April 2021, 12:58 AM | #13 |
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Odd thread.
Both my grandfathers fought in WW2 and am struggling to see how it wasn't justified. Atheist you seem to think it wasn't. Curious to know your reasoning. |
25th April 2021, 01:02 AM | #14 |
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25th April 2021, 01:30 AM | #15 |
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Peter Fitzsimmons, who has written extensively about Australia at war, says we should move on from Gallipoli, and I agree with him.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-s...23-p57lwv.html
Quote:
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25th April 2021, 02:08 AM | #16 |
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25th April 2021, 02:45 AM | #17 |
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25th April 2021, 02:57 AM | #18 |
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I always thought remembrance day was to remember not to do that again.
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25th April 2021, 03:14 AM | #19 |
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To me these types of commemorative services are often (note that means not all) the most vulgar examples of actual “virtue signalling”. As pointed out above we tend to be happy to “remember their sacrifices” on one day but then only pay lip service the rest of the year.
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25th April 2021, 03:18 AM | #20 |
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And unfortunately here in the UK it turns out a great many war dead were never commemorated:
Commonwealth war graves: PM 'deeply troubled' over racism It's an unpleasant but hardly surprising revelation and I suspect the UK is not the only country guilty of such a failure. |
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25th April 2021, 03:26 AM | #21 |
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25th April 2021, 04:04 AM | #22 |
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The ceremonies themselves are glorification. Have you been to RSA/RSL after an ANZAC service? Best booze sale day of the year, so my mate who's VP of an RSA tells me.
Winner! I'm not sure whose posts you're reading - where did I say that? My old man was a highly decorated WWII veteran and my mother's brother was a pilot who got shot down and killed over Burma. One of my grandfathers served on the Somme in WWI. I think I have a good grip on this war business. How's that working out? We've had 100 years of trying to remember not to do it again and it's been an abject failure. |
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25th April 2021, 04:11 AM | #23 |
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We have something like that as well.
In our case it is may 4th, Remembrance of the Dead', where we remember (translated) 'All - military or civilian - who were killed or murdered in the Kingdom of the Netherlands or anywhere else in the world since the start of the Second World War, in War or during Peace missions.' No glorification of war anywhere in there. The next day May 5th, is National Freedom Day, where we celebrate the end of the Nazi occupation. |
25th April 2021, 04:27 AM | #24 |
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25th April 2021, 04:33 AM | #25 |
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Thinking about it more this is probably a more decent argument than what I initially wrote it off as. But tbh I disagree. My Grandfathers efforts may only be truely commemorated once or twice a year, but at the end of the day, they were ****** full on end of the world as we know it ****. Stuff we will probably never have to deal with in our lifetime. So if one day we can give them a bit of kudos. then I am for it. |
25th April 2021, 12:21 PM | #26 |
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25th April 2021, 12:25 PM | #27 |
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25th April 2021, 12:31 PM | #28 |
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Some historians think that Churghill's idea of goring to the dardenelles was sound strategy, but that the tactical handling was incredibly screwed up.Not saying I agree, but it'snot so open and shut as you inidcate.
I also think some Anzacs think they have a monopoly on Gallipoli, when there were just as many, if not more, British, as in from the British Islands, and French soldiers inovlved, and they suffered just as much. The idea that the Anzacs were used as Cannon Fodder to spare British troops seems unfounded. British units made just as many stupid attacks. Ftizsimmons is a good author, but he does seem to have a dislike for the Bloody Pommies in his books. |
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25th April 2021, 02:10 PM | #29 |
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25th April 2021, 02:16 PM | #30 |
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I'm amused by the mental image of Aussie pacifists self righteously dithering about how best to prevent Japanese tourists from taking selfies at Darwin bombing sites. Arguing among themselves about whether the bogans actually driving the tourists away are heroes or villains.
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25th April 2021, 04:11 PM | #31 |
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So we have been informed that the Dutch and Americans have commemoration days. I wonder who else does? What about the Germans, Italians, Japanese, and other allies on the losing side?
I also wonder at how long after the war, others here think it appropriate to continue with the observations? |
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25th April 2021, 04:21 PM | #32 |
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25th April 2021, 04:45 PM | #33 |
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25th April 2021, 05:58 PM | #34 |
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No, we have one holiday to commemorate servicemen and women who paid with their lives. Veterans day is for the living.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Day |
25th April 2021, 06:18 PM | #35 |
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I think the Italians pretend to have been the good guys who were misled by having had bad friends (Germany), being occupied by them and they celebrate the end of the war as some sort of liberation event or possibly a successful uprising.
Disclaimer: This is what I gleaned from being in Italy during the commemoration day celebrations one year and asking a local what they were celebrating exactly. |
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25th April 2021, 07:49 PM | #36 |
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Wouldn't surprise me if they did.
It is still just loads of young dudes dying for pretty dumb reasons, no matter "the side" As for how long. It will be for how ever long the current generations find it significant. Can't speak for other countries, but here ANZAC day just continues to get bigger and bigger. Grand kids, Great grandkids etc rock up for the dawn service |
25th April 2021, 07:51 PM | #37 |
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Just as an add on I know even during the Covid lock down, whole streets were getting up and standing in their streets to go through the thing, because you couldn't gather.
Which I am thinking means it will be around for a while. |
25th April 2021, 07:56 PM | #38 |
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25th April 2021, 08:39 PM | #39 |
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26th April 2021, 04:10 AM | #40 | ||||||
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No love for 'The Battle of Long Tan'?
Though I do prefer 'Into the Light Green'/'I Was Only Nineteen'.
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