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Old 24th April 2021, 04:55 PM   #1
Thor 2
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Commemoration Of War Dead

Today is Anzac Day in Australia. It is a day when we commemorate the death of those who died fighting in war. We have one other similar day "Remembrance Day" on the 11th of November (11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month).

Just wondering about similar commemorations in other countries and just wondering how everybody feels about it. Good and wholesome tradition or is it just glorification of war?
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Old 24th April 2021, 06:03 PM   #2
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Gonna be hard to get good people to sacrifice their lives in a just war if you don't glorify such sacrifices.
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Old 24th April 2021, 07:06 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Good and wholesome tradition or is it just glorification of war?
The latter.

"The war to end all wars" said it all. It took a mere 20 years to do it all again.

I hate ANZAC Day events with a passion. I said to Mrs A this morning that you can bet your life not a single RSA in NZ or RSL in Aussie would play And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda today, but it's what they should be playing. Then read Ben Elton's The First Casualty, or just recite Owens' Dulce et Decorum Est.

Here's the ultimate version of ATBPWM, described by NME (I think) as Shane MacGowan chewing over the lyrics before spitting them out in anger at the stupidity of it.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 24th April 2021, 07:12 PM   #4
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I just opened up Al J after that post and this story on Vietnam objectors in Aussie came up. Well worth a look: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...arks-anzac-day
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Old 24th April 2021, 07:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Gonna be hard to get good people to sacrifice their lives in a just war if you don't glorify such sacrifices.
The two songs that Australians associate with today are Redgum’s I Was Only 19 and Eric Bogle’s And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Both are about death and the way war leaves young men with mental and physical wounds. The Anzac ceremonies are somber occasions without glorification. I am sure the veterans I know wouldn’t allow such a thing.
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Old 24th April 2021, 08:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I just opened up Al J after that post and this story on Vietnam objectors in Aussie came up. Well worth a look: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...arks-anzac-day
I can’t see how recognition of objectors would fit into the service but somewhere we should have had mention of veteran suicide and mental health, issues that the government has had to be pushed into doing something about.

Edit: My experience was of the service in Darwin but it looks like someone spoke up:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/veterans...y-dawn-service
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Old 24th April 2021, 08:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I just opened up Al J after that post and this story on Vietnam objectors in Aussie came up. Well worth a look: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...arks-anzac-day

Thanks for the link. I was stunned by this excerpt:

"At least 400 Australian defence force veterans have died by suicide since 2001 compared with 41 deaths in combat in Afghanistan during the same period."

I tend to agree with you about the ceremonies being war glorification.

Mind you, as I was born in Sweden, I don't have any relations in the past who marched to war.
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Old 24th April 2021, 08:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for the link. I was stunned by this excerpt:

"At least 400 Australian defence force veterans have died by suicide since 2001 compared with 41 deaths in combat in Afghanistan during the same period."

I tend to agree with you about the ceremonies being war glorification.

Mind you, as I was born in Sweden, I don't have any relations in the past who marched to war.
Examples from the ceremonies?
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Old 24th April 2021, 08:25 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Gonna be hard to get good people to sacrifice their lives in a just war if you don't glorify such sacrifices.

A "just war"? Yes that is a curly one.

The Second World War maybe but the First (which laid the groundwork for the rise of Hitler and the Second) not so. Likewise the Vietnam War and our marching into Afghanistan either.
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Old 24th April 2021, 08:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The two songs that Australians associate with today are Redgum’s I Was Only 19 and Eric Bogle’s And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Both are about death and the way war leaves young men with mental and physical wounds. The Anzac ceremonies are somber occasions without glorification. I am sure the veterans I know wouldn’t allow such a thing.
As has always been the case.
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Old 24th April 2021, 09:11 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Examples from the ceremonies?

Well I know the ceremonies are all about remembering those, who were killed or maimed in those terrible wars, and not about raising a battle cry, but there could be a feeling nurtured in the breast of those participating, that this is a noble pursuit. Saying it is a glorification of war may be a bit of an exaggeration however.

I just think that war may be best forgotten. As an atheist I don't think those who gave their lives are up there, sitting on a cloud, and getting something out of this.
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Old 25th April 2021, 12:33 AM   #12
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I see ANZAC Day as just looking at one side of the coin.

Yes, it's all very tragic when people are killed in war.

But there shouldn't be war in the first place.

I've never been to an ANZAC Day service.
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Old 25th April 2021, 12:58 AM   #13
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Odd thread.

Both my grandfathers fought in WW2 and am struggling to see how it wasn't justified.

Atheist you seem to think it wasn't.

Curious to know your reasoning.
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Old 25th April 2021, 01:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I see ANZAC Day as just looking at one side of the coin.

Yes, it's all very tragic when people are killed in war.

But there shouldn't be war in the first place.

I've never been to an ANZAC Day service.
I think you might be missing the point of it.

But that is cool.
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Old 25th April 2021, 01:30 AM   #15
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Peter Fitzsimmons, who has written extensively about Australia at war, says we should move on from Gallipoli, and I agree with him.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-s...23-p57lwv.html

Quote:
The standout thing for me was how in the Second World War many of the same Australian troops who were the first to stop the previously unstoppable German Army in the desert sands at Tobruk and El Alamein, then went to New Guinea where they were the first to stop the Japanese Army at Milne Bay and on the Kokoda Track. (Let me hear you say “RAH!“)
Gallipoli was an embarrassing debacle, engineered by Churchill. Who more than redeemed himself by pretty much winning the war. But here downunder we should be celebrating our efforts on the Western front in WWI and in Egypt and New Guinea in WWII.
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Old 25th April 2021, 02:08 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Peter Fitzsimmons, who has written extensively about Australia at war, says we should move on from Gallipoli, and I agree with him.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-s...23-p57lwv.html



Gallipoli was an embarrassing debacle, engineered by Churchill. Who more than redeemed himself by pretty much winning the war. But here downunder we should be celebrating our efforts on the Western front in WWI and in Egypt and New Guinea in WWII.
That is great, but am missing the relevance.

Everyone knows Gallipoli was dim.

I have meet Peter and he seemed like a good bloke, but tend to find his historian rantings a bit crap.
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Old 25th April 2021, 02:45 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That is great, but am missing the relevance.
Yeah, no surprise.
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Old 25th April 2021, 02:57 AM   #18
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I always thought remembrance day was to remember not to do that again.
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Old 25th April 2021, 03:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I can’t see how recognition of objectors would fit into the service but somewhere we should have had mention of veteran suicide and mental health, issues that the government has had to be pushed into doing something about.

Edit: My experience was of the service in Darwin but it looks like someone spoke up:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/veterans...y-dawn-service
To me these types of commemorative services are often (note that means not all) the most vulgar examples of actual “virtue signalling”. As pointed out above we tend to be happy to “remember their sacrifices” on one day but then only pay lip service the rest of the year.
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Old 25th April 2021, 03:18 AM   #20
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And unfortunately here in the UK it turns out a great many war dead were never commemorated:

Commonwealth war graves: PM 'deeply troubled' over racism

It's an unpleasant but hardly surprising revelation and I suspect the UK is not the only country guilty of such a failure.
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Old 25th April 2021, 03:26 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yeah, no surprise.
.Edit: Sorry. That was harsh

Last edited by cullennz; 25th April 2021 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:04 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The Anzac ceremonies are somber occasions without glorification.
The ceremonies themselves are glorification. Have you been to RSA/RSL after an ANZAC service? Best booze sale day of the year, so my mate who's VP of an RSA tells me.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
But there shouldn't be war in the first place.
Winner!

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Both my grandfathers fought in WW2 and am struggling to see how it wasn't justified.

Atheist you seem to think it wasn't.
I'm not sure whose posts you're reading - where did I say that?

My old man was a highly decorated WWII veteran and my mother's brother was a pilot who got shot down and killed over Burma. One of my grandfathers served on the Somme in WWI.

I think I have a good grip on this war business.

Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
I always thought remembrance day was to remember not to do that again.
How's that working out?

We've had 100 years of trying to remember not to do it again and it's been an abject failure.
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:11 AM   #23
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We have something like that as well.
In our case it is may 4th, Remembrance of the Dead', where we remember (translated) 'All - military or civilian - who were killed or murdered in the Kingdom of the Netherlands or anywhere else in the world since the start of the Second World War, in War or during Peace missions.'

No glorification of war anywhere in there.

The next day May 5th, is National Freedom Day, where we celebrate the end of the Nazi occupation.
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not sure how it is quite a failure,

Admittedly we still send people to things, but to compare it to either WW is lauaghable
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:33 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
To me these types of commemorative services are often (note that means not all) the most vulgar examples of actual “virtue signalling”. As pointed out above we tend to be happy to “remember their sacrifices” on one day but then only pay lip service the rest of the year.

Thinking about it more this is probably a more decent argument than what I initially wrote it off as.

But tbh I disagree.

My Grandfathers efforts may only be truely commemorated once or twice a year, but at the end of the day, they were ****** full on end of the world as we know it ****. Stuff we will probably never have to deal with in our lifetime.

So if one day we can give them a bit of kudos. then I am for it.
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Old 25th April 2021, 12:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Today is Anzac Day in Australia. It is a day when we commemorate the death of those who died fighting in war. We have one other similar day "Remembrance Day" on the 11th of November (11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month).

Just wondering about similar commemorations in other countries and just wondering how everybody feels about it. Good and wholesome tradition or is it just glorification of war?
In the US we have two holidays for that;Memorial Day and Veterens Day.
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Old 25th April 2021, 12:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A "just war"? Yes that is a curly one.

The Second World War maybe but the First (which laid the groundwork for the rise of Hitler and the Second) not so. Likewise the Vietnam War and our marching into Afghanistan either.
So we just have done nothing but verbal condemnation after 9/11?
I think,the intial military strike into Afghanistan was necessary. Whether we should have remained there so long is another story.
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Old 25th April 2021, 12:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Peter Fitzsimmons, who has written extensively about Australia at war, says we should move on from Gallipoli, and I agree with him.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-s...23-p57lwv.html



Gallipoli was an embarrassing debacle, engineered by Churchill. Who more than redeemed himself by pretty much winning the war. But here downunder we should be celebrating our efforts on the Western front in WWI and in Egypt and New Guinea in WWII.
Some historians think that Churghill's idea of goring to the dardenelles was sound strategy, but that the tactical handling was incredibly screwed up.Not saying I agree, but it'snot so open and shut as you inidcate.
I also think some Anzacs think they have a monopoly on Gallipoli, when there were just as many, if not more, British, as in from the British Islands, and French soldiers inovlved, and they suffered just as much. The idea that the Anzacs were used as Cannon Fodder to spare British troops seems unfounded. British units made just as many stupid attacks.
Ftizsimmons is a good author, but he does seem to have a dislike for the Bloody Pommies in his books.
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Old 25th April 2021, 02:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Peter Fitzsimmons, who has written extensively about Australia at war, says we should move on from Gallipoli, and I agree with him.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-s...23-p57lwv.html



Gallipoli was an embarrassing debacle, engineered by Churchill. Who more than redeemed himself by pretty much winning the war. But here downunder we should be celebrating our efforts on the Western front in WWI and in Egypt and New Guinea in WWII.
By actually going to Gallipoli we celebrate our invasion of Turkey on their soil. It is bizarre. We wouldn't dream of letting the Japanese come to Darwin to celebrate the bombing there, as brave as it was.
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Old 25th April 2021, 02:16 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
By actually going to Gallipoli we celebrate our invasion of Turkey on their soil. It is bizarre. We wouldn't dream of letting the Japanese come to Darwin to celebrate the bombing there, as brave as it was.
I'm amused by the mental image of Aussie pacifists self righteously dithering about how best to prevent Japanese tourists from taking selfies at Darwin bombing sites. Arguing among themselves about whether the bogans actually driving the tourists away are heroes or villains.
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:11 PM   #31
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So we have been informed that the Dutch and Americans have commemoration days. I wonder who else does? What about the Germans, Italians, Japanese, and other allies on the losing side?

I also wonder at how long after the war, others here think it appropriate to continue with the observations?
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:21 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So we have been informed that the Dutch and Americans have commemoration days. I wonder who else does? What about the Germans, Italians, Japanese, and other allies on the losing side?

I also wonder at how long after the war, others here think it appropriate to continue with the observations?
ANZAC Day does not commemorate any particular war (I’m old enough to remember Boer War veterans participating) and I’m certain Veterans Day is the same. While the military is around these days will remain.
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Old 25th April 2021, 04:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I know the ceremonies are all about remembering those, who were killed or maimed in those terrible wars, and not about raising a battle cry, but there could be a feeling nurtured in the breast of those participating, that this is a noble pursuit. Saying it is a glorification of war may be a bit of an exaggeration however.

I just think that war may be best forgotten. As an atheist I don't think those who gave their lives are up there, sitting on a cloud, and getting something out of this.
Does anyone think that? It’s certainly not a necessity to get and give something through participation. Like funerals, these commemorations are for the living.
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Old 25th April 2021, 05:58 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In the US we have two holidays for that;Memorial Day and Veterens Day.
No, we have one holiday to commemorate servicemen and women who paid with their lives. Veterans day is for the living.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Day
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Old 25th April 2021, 06:18 PM   #35
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I think the Italians pretend to have been the good guys who were misled by having had bad friends (Germany), being occupied by them and they celebrate the end of the war as some sort of liberation event or possibly a successful uprising.

Disclaimer: This is what I gleaned from being in Italy during the commemoration day celebrations one year and asking a local what they were celebrating exactly.
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Old 25th April 2021, 07:49 PM   #36
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So we have been informed that the Dutch and Americans have commemoration days. I wonder who else does? What about the Germans, Italians, Japanese, and other allies on the losing side?

I also wonder at how long after the war, others here think it appropriate to continue with the observations?
Wouldn't surprise me if they did.

It is still just loads of young dudes dying for pretty dumb reasons, no matter "the side"

As for how long. It will be for how ever long the current generations find it significant.


Can't speak for other countries, but here ANZAC day just continues to get bigger and bigger.

Grand kids, Great grandkids etc rock up for the dawn service
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Old 25th April 2021, 07:51 PM   #37
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Just as an add on I know even during the Covid lock down, whole streets were getting up and standing in their streets to go through the thing, because you couldn't gather.

Which I am thinking means it will be around for a while.
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Old 25th April 2021, 07:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Does anyone think that? It’s certainly not a necessity to get and give something through participation. Like funerals, these commemorations are for the living.

Well I think the religious may.

In fact I think that the motivation behind making these memorial services was just that. Showing those up there who gave their lives how grateful we are for their sacrifice. What do you see as the motivation?
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Old 25th April 2021, 08:39 PM   #39
Sideroxylon
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I think the religious may.

In fact I think that the motivation behind making these memorial services was just that. Showing those up there who gave their lives how grateful we are for their sacrifice. What do you see as the motivation?
There are many but how about for veterans and those currently serving?
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Old 26th April 2021, 04:10 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The two songs that Australians associate with today are Redgum’s I Was Only 19 and Eric Bogle’s And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Both are about death and the way war leaves young men with mental and physical wounds. The Anzac ceremonies are somber occasions without glorification. I am sure the veterans I know wouldn’t allow such a thing.
No love for 'The Battle of Long Tan'?
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Though I do prefer 'Into the Light Green'/'I Was Only Nineteen'.
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