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Tags Jeffrey Epstein , sex offenders , sex trafficking

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Old 16th August 2019, 11:47 PM   #561
Venom
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I sometimes wonder how jailed people know to hang themselves. Or cut their wrist.
Doesn't seem instinctual and yet.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:57 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
One statistic I heard quoted on TV (I'm afraid I haven't looked for the source) suggested that the hyoid, while broken in about a third of murders by strangulation, was also broken in about 28% of suicides by hanging.

More often in the elderly, and Epstein was 66.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:33 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I sometimes wonder how jailed people know to hang themselves. Or cut their wrist.
Doesn't seem instinctual and yet.
Well, prison gives you an extraordinary amount of time to focus on a particular goal.

"In prison, a man will do almost anything to keep his mind occupied."
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:49 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
More often in the elderly, and Epstein was 66.
I refuse to think of 66 as "elderly", since I'll soon be 71.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:50 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The "broken bones in the neck" seem to have been one bone, the hyoid bone,
Nope:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...f08_story.html
Quote:
An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein suffered multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple.
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Old 17th August 2019, 11:26 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I refuse to think of 66 as "elderly", since I'll soon be 71.
I think there's a river in Egypt we need to discuss...
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:01 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes, and I'm reading different reports mentioning both bone and bones.

Apart from the flimsy hyoid the only other bones in the neck are the seven vertebrae, which are flanked by significant muscle. If we take as true the business of him being found in 'a kneeling position' it's all very hard to fathom.

"Cervical spine fractures most often result in complete hangings where the patient is dropped from a significant height. As previously stated, this height is usually greater than or equal to the patient’s height. Fracture of the second cervical vertebrae, otherwise known as the “hangman’s fracture,” leads to internal decapitation and immediate death."

link

Will the autopsy become public? Fractured hyoid I get, but other bones? Not really.
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:45 PM   #568
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I'm sure the medical examiner in New York is aware of what kinds of injuries are consistent with violent strangulation and declared suicide to be the cause of death because a plurality of the available evidence supported that conclusion instead.
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:27 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I'm sure the medical examiner in New York is aware of what kinds of injuries are consistent with violent strangulation and declared suicide to be the cause of death because a plurality of the available evidence supported that conclusion instead.
Well there should be no issue with making all the information available so that assessment can be verified or falsified.
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:33 PM   #570
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Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:00 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.
Agreed, but would that preclude it becoming available to the public?

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.
See above.

p.s. I'm not subscribing to any CT, just saying that the reports are unclear on whether it's bone or bones, and if bones then which bones and how many. Multiple fractures of the cervical vertebrae plus fracture of the hyoid are not consistent with self-strangulation by a kneeling man.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:26 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.
Then I reject the ME'e claims. A key requirement of scientific skepticism and method is the open presentation of all evidence.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:07 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The "broken bones in the neck" seem to have been one bone, the hyoid bone, which is small, fragile, and apparently not uncommonly broken in suicides by hanging.

One statistic I heard quoted on TV (I'm afraid I haven't looked for the source) suggested that the hyoid, while broken in about a third of murders by strangulation, was also broken in about 28% of suicides by hanging.

So, it being broken in Epstein's case really doesn't tell us all that much.
Some vertebrae were also broken, all of which suggests he jumped off something to get a good fall.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:09 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post

p.s. I'm not subscribing to any CT, just saying that the reports are unclear on whether it's bone or bones, and if bones then which bones and how many. Multiple fractures of the cervical vertebrae plus fracture of the hyoid are not consistent with self-strangulation by a kneeling man.
It is if he jumped off something.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:16 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.
What about valid concern over the unnatural death of a high-profile suspect while in custody?

I have no pet theory or preferred scapegoat in this matter. I want to know what happened, how it was allowed to happen, and what is going to be done to prevent it in the future.

Getting the manner of death right is critical to getting those other issues sorted out properly.

Suicide or otherwise, our public institutions just took away his victims' right to see justice done.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 17th August 2019 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:26 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Multiple fractures of the cervical vertebrae plus fracture of the hyoid are not consistent with self-strangulation by a kneeling man.
They can murder him in prison without anyone there noticing anything, but they can't hire competent coroners to falsify the death certificate without some "obvious" inconsistencies.

#derpstate
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:28 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It is if he jumped off something.
True, but the forensic opinion in my link above is that the drop needs to be several feet to break cervical vertebrae. That suggests he stood on some furniture that was pretty high. Probably too high given the dimensions of a typical cell or room in an everyday household.

What might this sheet have been attached to? What might he have stood on? How did he end up on his knees? The geometry of it makes no sense at all.

I suspect it was just the hyoid bone broken by self-strangulation.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:36 PM   #578
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I'm not an expert by any means, but I had understood it's a combination of the "6 foot drop" and the way a noose is formed that cause the internal decapitation. This is why the noose is cinched down right against the back of the neck after putting it around them. It's a small bit of mercy to make it quick and avoid prolonged suffering (and a gruesome display as this method was also common in an era of public executions). A similar consideration was made for burning heretics. They used seasoned wood and lots of kindling to get it good and roasting fast, hoping the condemned succumbed to the fumes. A slow burn meant an hour of agonizing theatrics (which on some occasions left the viewers full of sympathy rather than fear of the same fate).

I'm provisionally incredulous over a blanket and a hop off of a bunk bed causing that much damage. My understanding is most prison hangings rely on carotid restraint and then strangulation once the body goes limp.

Also, to clarify again, my concern is more "how did we let someone achieve this feat while in custody."

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 17th August 2019 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:21 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
What about valid concern over the unnatural death of a high-profile suspect while in custody?

I have no pet theory or preferred scapegoat in this matter. I want to know what happened, how it was allowed to happen, and what is going to be done to prevent it in the future.

Getting the manner of death right is critical to getting those other issues sorted out properly.

Suicide or otherwise, our public institutions just took away his victims' right to see justice done.
What you've just described here, is the reason why a professional autopsy was performed. You need a different justification for questioning the result of that autopsy.
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:25 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What you've just described here, is the reason why a professional autopsy was performed. You need a different justification for questioning the result of that autopsy.
I'm comparing the result of the autopsy to the variables present in the cell.

Furthermore, if the autopsy is accurate, that means we need to make changes to prisoner accommodations because people shouldn't be able to break their neck like that in custody.

Perhaps what I'm zeroing in on isn't what you think I'm trying to zero in on?
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:47 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Available to peers, meaning medical and forensic professionals, certainly.

Available to self-appointed "internet detectives" looking for evidence to support a ridiculous conspiracy theory, no.
Quoting for truth.
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:50 PM   #582
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"Hey let's hand over information they can't possibly comprehend to one of the absolute worst fandom on the internet so they can craft dangerous conspiracy theories out of their own misunderstanding of it for the next decade"
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:22 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm comparing the result of the autopsy to the variables present in the cell.
Yes but you don't have a full picture of the variables present in the cell; you have a decidedly incomplete list of unofficially-sourced rumors which has changed over time.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Furthermore, if the autopsy is accurate, that means we need to make changes to prisoner accommodations because people shouldn't be able to break their neck like that in custody.
This kind of death is not possible when a prisoner is actually on suicide watch. But true suicide watch is an extremely invasive and humiliating set of policies, and in form is antithetical to a prisoner's human rights as we understand them, which is why it is not something they're assigned to unless there's a highly compelling reason to do so, and also why a suspect's lawyers will always fight - as Epstein's did - to get their clients removed from that status if the client isn't self-declaring a suicidal tendency.
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:28 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yes but you don't have a full picture of the variables present in the cell; you have a decidedly incomplete list of unofficially-sourced rumors which has changed over time.
In that case if you're not contributing to a more complete understanding, stop wasting my time with paternalistic lecturing.

I'm moving on, now.
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:55 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm comparing the result of the autopsy to the variables present in the cell.

Furthermore, if the autopsy is accurate, that means we need to make changes to prisoner accommodations because people shouldn't be able to break their neck like that in custody.

Perhaps what I'm zeroing in on isn't what you think I'm trying to zero in on?
Well go on then. Call the federal bureau of prisons and ask them what they have done to rectify the situation with the lethal beds. Peoples lives might be at stake.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:07 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Hey let's hand over information they can't possibly comprehend to one of the absolute worst fandom on the internet so they can craft dangerous conspiracy theories out of their own misunderstanding of it for the next decade"
Let's not forget that personal dignity and privacy applies to dead people too. I don't think it is justified to publicly disclose anymore information than necessary. Certainly not just because tinfoil hat wearing armchair-coroners somehow have become convinced there's a cover up of a murder.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:44 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well go on then. Call the federal bureau of prisons and ask them what they have done to rectify the situation with the lethal beds. Peoples lives might be at stake.
I've called the chair and vice chair of the judiciary committee, the chair and vice chair of the crime, terrorism, and homeland security subcommittee, and the chair of the oversight committee and made my desire for a thorough review to take place.

Making snide comments about what I should do doesn't advance the discussion.

Anyone else want to waste bandwidth on immature commentary today?
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:51 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Some vertebrae were also broken, all of which suggests he jumped off something to get a good fall.
https://nypost.com/2019/08/12/jeffre...dsheet-source/
Quote:
The convicted pedophile, who was 6 feet tall, apparently killed himself by kneeling toward the floor and strangling himself with the makeshift noose, law enforcement sources said Monday.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:00 PM   #589
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/n...-officers.html

Quote:
The two staff members who were guarding the jail unit where Jeffrey Epstein apparently killed himself fell asleep, failed to check on him for about three hours and falsified records to cover up their mistake, according to several law enforcement and prison officials with knowledge of the matter.
He could have had a cellmate who killed him, and the faked records just say he was alone.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:16 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I've called the chair and vice chair of the judiciary committee, the chair and vice chair of the crime, terrorism, and homeland security subcommittee, and the chair of the oversight committee and made my desire for a thorough review to take place.

Making snide comments about what I should do doesn't advance the discussion.

Anyone else want to waste bandwidth on immature commentary today?
Why didn't you call before this happened? There was plenty to investigate.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:16 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Some vertebrae were also broken, all of which suggests he jumped off something to get a good fall.
Couldn't that depend on how the bones were broken? My thought is that sometimes in death throes, a body could convulse or spasm and therefore produce what may look like injuries which were not self-sustained. When I took forensic classes years ago, I seem to remember crime scene photos which demonstrated similar occurrences.

IOW, in this instance, could he not have tied a sheet to a pipe under the sink or to a sink faucet and suffocate and then, near death, convulse and twist his head or neck or perhaps jerk back hard enough to break vertebrae? Something like that?

I'm just raising a possibility here; I have no thought as to true murder or suicide.
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Old 17th August 2019, 11:43 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post

IOW, in this instance, could he not have tied a sheet to a pipe under the sink or to a sink faucet and suffocate and then, near death, convulse and twist his head or neck or perhaps jerk back hard enough to break vertebrae? Something like that?

I'm just raising a possibility here; I have no thought as to true murder or suicide.
When people have convulsions, it's not actually violently thrashing around. Epileptics don't generally hurt themselves from convulsions themselves - just the falling down and hitting their heads (and biting their tongues.)

It's exceedingly rare for convulsions themselves to cause bone breaking:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...975c000000.pdf

Quote:
Bone fractures, especially vertebral compression fractures, are well–known complications of convulsive seizures (Matson et al. 2004), (8). These fractures mostly result from fall or accident caused by the seizure (Finelli et al. 1989, Vestergaard et al. 1999)...In contrast, contraction of the paraspinal
muscles alone leads to vertebral fractures in epileptic patients at an incidence rate of 0.3%
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Old 18th August 2019, 01:30 AM   #593
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Until there is some authoritative resolution of the one bone vs. multiple bones broken question (falsified forensic reporting aside), I think much of this discussion is a bit premature.
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Old 18th August 2019, 02:13 AM   #594
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It's tragic that Barr isn't being held accountable for this. The breakdown of safety at federal corrections facilities is awful.
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Old 18th August 2019, 03:06 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Well, prison gives you an extraordinary amount of time to focus on a particular goal.

"In prison, a man will do almost anything to keep his mind occupied."
That's god-damned right!
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Old 18th August 2019, 06:07 AM   #596
angrysoba
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“Hey, let’s murder Jeffrey Epstein and make it look like suicide. Also, for extra fun, let’s ‘hide it in plain sight’ by getting the coroner to say multiple bones were fractured when any schoolboy knows this is as likely as the David Kelly suicide or the JFK magic bullet...mwahahahahahaha!”
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:24 AM   #597
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Until there is some authoritative resolution of the one bone vs. multiple bones broken question (falsified forensic reporting aside), I think much of this discussion is a bit premature.
I think it's obvious that, was he murdered because of conspiracy to cover up crimes, it seems extremely unlikely that they would have not falsified any subsequent documents to make it clear he died an unsuspicous death.

It's not like just anyone can murder a specific detainee in federal prison, let alone somehow stage the murder scene so that there's nothing obvious that suggests they were infact murdered. If only a more thorough analysis of his corpse would indicate that he was murdered, it seems incredibly stupid and incompetent on part of these well connected and powerful conspiracy members to not have taken that into account.
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:06 AM   #598
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I think it's obvious that, was he murdered because of conspiracy to cover up crimes, it seems extremely unlikely that they would have not falsified any subsequent documents to make it clear he died an unsuspicous death.

It's not like just anyone can murder a specific detainee in federal prison, let alone somehow stage the murder scene so that there's nothing obvious that suggests they were infact murdered. If only a more thorough analysis of his corpse would indicate that he was murdered, it seems incredibly stupid and incompetent on part of these well connected and powerful conspiracy members to not have taken that into account.
Generally true, but some US prisons are utterly broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger#Death

Quote:
This was the third homicide at the prison in a 40-day span.
October 2018.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 18th August 2019, 10:17 AM   #599
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I think it's obvious that, was he murdered because of conspiracy to cover up crimes, it seems extremely unlikely that they would have not falsified any subsequent documents to make it clear he died an unsuspicous death.

Not that I'm arguing for a conspiracy at all, but if this were a real conspiracy (as opposed to a conspiracy theory) it wouldn't necessarily be able to control all the evidence. Actual conspiracies have potential flaws.
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Old 18th August 2019, 02:13 PM   #600
kellyb
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Until there is some authoritative resolution of the one bone vs. multiple bones broken question (falsified forensic reporting aside), I think much of this discussion is a bit premature.
As far as I can tell, it was a sole report from the WaPo, which said "bones" (plural), which all the other reports mentioning neck injuries were based on/referenced.
Those latter reports which only mention one bone are just noting that the one bone mentioned by name isn't a slam-dunk 100% for it being murder, even though it's far more common in murder vs suicide.

If you can find any original reporting that says it was a single bone, I'd be happy to see it, though.
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