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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 14th September 2019, 05:32 PM   #1001
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
So, racism is ok if it's funny?

How'd that work out for Michael Richards?
The Venn diagram is not stereotypes completely subsumed by racism.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:33 PM   #1002
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
So, racism is ok if it's funny?

How'd that work out for Michael Richards?

I think there's certainly a clear difference: Richards was throwing punches at others. Yang was throwing punches at himself.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:58 PM   #1003
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I think there's certainly a clear difference: Richards was throwing punches at others. Yang was throwing punches at himself.
If he was talking about this, it wasn't even an attempted joke according to him:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sa.danglaister
Quote:
"I was at a comedy club trying to do my act, and I got heckled and I took it badly and went into a rage," Richards said. "For me to be in a comedy club and flip out and say this crap, I'm deeply, deeply sorry. I'm not a racist. That's what's so insane about this.
Jokes involving race can be funny, and that's not even limited to poking fun at one's own race/ethnicity. It's a matter of the spirit of what's said, if it's based on a more hateful, mean spirit, or a genuinely friendly, "loving" one.

Lisa Lampanelli explained it best:
https://wsf1027fm.blogspot.com/2011/...view-2008.html

Quote:
I think it’s just a gradual build. Like, you say to yourself, “Okay, I’m gonna try this: Let me say ‘spic’ or let me call the Canadians dirty people from a country that’s inferior to us.” And when they actually laugh instead of getting mad, you’re like, “Ooh, I can take more of a chance! I can say the n-word, I could do this, do that.” But I always did it with the right kind of intention to kind of point out stereotypes and how retarded they are. And you just see the more you kind of commit to it and the more ballsy you are, for whatever reason you have to be doing this kind of comedy, the more you just stick to it and go, “I’m taking more and more chances.” Like, there’s nothing I won’t say now. I can’t even think what subject could possibly be “oh my God, I won’t touch that.”

GM: Really.
LL: Yeah. Because there’s a line in comedy of, “oh my God, don’t cross this line, don’t push the envelope”. But there’s no envelope, there’s no line; there’s funny and not funny. And thank God I can pull off the funny part so it always seems to be okay.

GM: There must have been some instances where people took it the wrong way.
LL: Oddly enough, I can count on two hands in 17 years the number of times people were vocal with me. I think the fact that it is okay, they sense real prejudice. I’ve talked to real black people – believe it or not, there are real black people in this world who speak English – and they’ve said to me, “Hey, if you know what’s behind it, if you know there’s warmth and no hate, we know how to take it.” And I’m like, yeah, it’s the fear-based comic who won’t go there that minorities and people that are outside our little white devil circle, they’re the ones that people are like, “Hmm.” They’re holding something back. But people can tell with me I wasn’t holding it back; I was kind of doing it for the right reasons. Really, like I said, a handful of people got pissed. And thank God because I’m not good pickin’ beating, I never have.
Sorry for the derail.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:05 PM   #1004
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To tell the truth, if what Yang said was a joke (and I don't doubt that at all) I don't really get it. Do Asians know lots of doctors? Are lots of doctors Asian? These are stereotypes I'm simply not familiar with.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:10 PM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
To tell the truth, if what Yang said was a joke (and I don't doubt that at all) I don't really get it. Do Asians know lots of doctors? Are lots of doctors Asian? These are stereotypes I'm simply not familiar with.
He was probably talking about this:
https://www.insidehighered.com/admis...-because-asian
Quote:
Data in the analysis show that medical school enrollments are much more diverse than they were 35 years ago. But the gains have largely been for Asian-American students. The share of black, Latino and Native American students is not close to their representation in undergraduate programs. And while the percentage of Asian medical school matriculants lagged the numbers for black and medical students in 1980, the Asian enrollment figure is now far more than black and Latino medical matriculants combined.
I'm assuming Yang's 1% crowd is full of humor specific to their demographics.

ETA:
Nobody in the crowd got the joke either, and Yang looked so confused, like he was thinking "Ok, tough crowd". That was part of what made me laugh.
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Last edited by kellyb; 14th September 2019 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:13 PM   #1006
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
He was probably talking about this:
https://www.insidehighered.com/admis...-because-asian


I'm assuming Yang's 1% crowd is full of humor specific to their demographics.

ETA:
Nobody in the crowd got the joke either, and Yang looked so confused, like he was thinking "Ok, tough crowd". That was part of what made me laugh.

Gotcha. Thanks!
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:05 PM   #1007
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
So, racism is ok if it's funny?

How'd that work out for Michael Richards?
Pffft! If what Yang said is racism, then it is very mild. If someone said, well I’m Jewish so obviously I know a lot of lawyers would someone get upset about it?

As for Michael Richards, yelling ****** and invoking violence against black people on stage wasn’t even funny.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:35 PM   #1008
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Pffft! If what Yang said is racism, then it is very mild. If someone said, well I’m Jewish so obviously I know a lot of lawyers would someone get upset about it?
It's a very subtle form of racism, to remark on the success of your race. I do note that when any whites start talking about the success of the white race, people seem to hear the racism a lot easier. Funny that.
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:29 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's a very subtle form of racism, to remark on the success of your race. I do note that when any whites start talking about the success of the white race, people seem to hear the racism a lot easier. Funny that.
Can you give an example of something comparable that people got outraged over?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th September 2019, 02:32 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's a very subtle form of racism, to remark on the success of your race.
Huh?

Quote:
I do note that when any whites start talking about the success of the white race, people seem to hear the racism a lot easier. Funny that.
Oh.



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Old 15th September 2019, 02:52 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's a very subtle form of racism, to remark on the success of your race.
I can't believe I'm even getting into this humorless nonsense, but Yang wasn't remarking on his own race, positively or otherwise.

The stereotypical "Asian doctors" are...immigrants. From India.

https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/...lth-care-needs

Quote:
In the US, Indians and Indian-Americans make up the largest non-Caucasian segment of the American medical community, where they account for one in every 20 practicing doctors. In recent years, they have become a more vocal and visible presence, undertaking charitable activities and political lobbying.
Quote:
Even those who do get visas for advanced medical education are asked to return to India after their training unless they agree to set up practice in underserved areas, where medical specialists often have difficulty earning a living. Discrimination may also complicate the task of Indian physicians- some say they face prejudice when applying for residency programs.
Quote:
These problems come at a time when a continued influx of Indian doctors may prove vital to the US, which is dealing with a shortfall of physicians to cope with a growing and aging population. Onerous visa requirements and discrimination towards Indian doctors, concludes Raymer, only exacerbate “a looming national healthcare crisis”. - Yale Global
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:46 AM   #1012
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I suppose if a white candidate were to brag on stage about dodging a heavy jail sentence because of being white that might get some flak. Not sure if it is comparable. And kellyb makes a good point that Yang might have been poking fun at the blanket nature of the term “Asian”.

From what i know of Yang, his references to being Asian are almost exclusively tongue-in-cheek. I don’t see him using his identify as, for example, a demand that other Asian people vote for him or that people of colour, in general, vote for him. He’s not identitarian in that sense.

The only serious use of his ethnic background that I have seen his use is to point out that his family were immigrants and that they bought into the American dream and were a net benefit to the country, arguing, by extension, that immigration itself is a benefit to the country and not something that should be scapegoated as the cause of problems such as unemployment.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th September 2019, 04:00 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The stereotypical "Asian doctors" are...immigrants. From India.
There's no chance at all that an American who meets the American use of that word meant to use it in its British usage which most of his American audience wouldn't even be aware of while talking about himself. You're spinning so hard you're making yourself dizzy.
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Old 15th September 2019, 10:48 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
There's no chance at all that an American who meets the American use of that word meant to use it in its British usage which most of his American audience wouldn't even be aware of while talking about himself. You're spinning so hard you're making yourself dizzy.
What are you talking about?

https://www.census.gov/topics/popula...ace/about.html
Quote:
Asian – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.
You don't think Andrew Yang knows that immigrants from India in the US are classified as Asians?
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Old 15th September 2019, 10:57 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I suppose if a white candidate were to brag on stage about dodging a heavy jail sentence because of being white that might get some flak. Not sure if it is comparable. And kellyb makes a good point that Yang might have been poking fun at the blanket nature of the term “Asian”.

From what i know of Yang, his references to being Asian are almost exclusively tongue-in-cheek. I don’t see him using his identify as, for example, a demand that other Asian people vote for him or that people of colour, in general, vote for him. He’s not identitarian in that sense.

The only serious use of his ethnic background that I have seen his use is to point out that his family were immigrants and that they bought into the American dream and were a net benefit to the country, arguing, by extension, that immigration itself is a benefit to the country and not something that should be scapegoated as the cause of problems such as unemployment.
I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure he's a fan of strong border security, and only having high (new) immigration rates specifically for highly skilled, high income immigrants.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:17 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What are you talking about?

https://www.census.gov/topics/popula...ace/about.html


You don't think Andrew Yang knows that immigrants from India in the US are classified as Asians?
I think Andrew Yang knows that. But in common American usage, "Asian" usually means East and Southeast Asian.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #1017
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I suppose if a white candidate were to brag on stage about dodging a heavy jail sentence because of being white that might get some flak. Not sure if it is comparable. And kellyb makes a good point that Yang might have been poking fun at the blanket nature of the term “Asian”.

From what i know of Yang, his references to being Asian are almost exclusively tongue-in-cheek. I don’t see him using his identify as, for example, a demand that other Asian people vote for him or that people of colour, in general, vote for him. He’s not identitarian in that sense.

The only serious use of his ethnic background that I have seen his use is to point out that his family were immigrants and that they bought into the American dream and were a net benefit to the country, arguing, by extension, that immigration itself is a benefit to the country and not something that should be scapegoated as the cause of problems such as unemployment.
I agree that his references to being Asian are tongue-in-cheek. He also likes to say "the opposite of Donald Trump is an Asian man who likes math"
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #1018
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Bernie Sanders wants rent control:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/u...s-housing.html
I think it is great Sanders wants to spend billions of dollars on the homelessness crisis. It is an extremely expensive problem even when we do nothing at all about it but rent control is the last thing in the world we should do to fight it. It doesn't work.
In my opinion Sanders is an example of the righteousness fallacy. His protectionism is another example of that. The intention is good, but the results are not.
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Old 15th September 2019, 03:44 PM   #1019
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It seems Yang has now explicitly addressed the issue of race in relation to an SNL comedian who called him a “Jew Chink”.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/09/an...ight-live.html

His take on it is interesting as he seems to be more interested in taking the restorative justice route than the retributivist one.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:35 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It seems Yang has now explicitly addressed the issue of race in relation to an SNL comedian who called him a “Jew Chink”.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/09/an...ight-live.html

His take on it is interesting as he seems to be more interested in taking the restorative justice route than the retributivist one.
Yang is a class act
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Old 15th September 2019, 05:40 PM   #1021
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This about says it all for 2020:

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Old 15th September 2019, 06:25 PM   #1022
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:19 PM   #1023
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What SezMe said.
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Old 16th September 2019, 02:50 AM   #1024
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Yang is a class act
As he says, he is the opposite of Donald Trump.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th September 2019, 04:18 AM   #1025
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After thinking about who will win the nomination I think Warren is off the ticket.

She's like a prize fighter. She'd hit Trump with a Bam! He'd skeeter off the stage
for a minute, then like inflatable clown punching bag, he'd slowly rise back up.

Yeah, I know, but we've seen this fight before.

With Biden on the debate stage with Trump, it would be like two wavy inflatable
arm-flailing tub-men on stage. Now that's something we haven't seen before.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:04 AM   #1026
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"BREAKING: Harris will pick 10 lucky families for her ‘universal basic incarceration’ program"

https://genesiustimes.com/harris-cam...PGGAyI.twitter

It's parody
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:38 AM   #1027
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"BREAKING: Harris will pick 10 lucky families for her ‘universal basic incarceration’ program"

https://genesiustimes.com/harris-cam...PGGAyI.twitter

It's parody
I'll need a ruling from Snopes.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:38 AM   #1028
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"BREAKING: Harris will pick 10 lucky families for her ‘universal basic incarceration’ program"

https://genesiustimes.com/harris-cam...PGGAyI.twitter

It's parody
Funny.
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Old 18th September 2019, 02:19 AM   #1029
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Warren Plan time!

My Plan to End Washington Corruption

I like this plan.
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Old 18th September 2019, 02:34 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Warren Plan time!

My Plan to End Washington Corruption

I like this plan.
Stopping corrupt people from holding office is one thing.

But the other side of the coin is to attract the best and brightest by giving them more money for doing a good job in government than they would in the private sector.

Maybe Warren has some ideas about that?
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:25 AM   #1031
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Warren Plan time!

My Plan to End Washington Corruption

I like this plan.
I despise most of it.

Her lobbying policy makes her sound like the shotgun lady from Harrison bergeron. I'm sorry that there are people good at petitioning their government. She hates them for being good at it.

She wants to expand the definition of lobbyist and then ban them from donating to a candidate. That is a fundamental act of speech.

But I'm not a democrat.
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Old 18th September 2019, 06:13 PM   #1032
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Warren Plan time!

My Plan to End Washington Corruption

I like this plan.
From that plan:
Quote:
Ban forced arbitration clauses.
Sold.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:23 AM   #1033
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As the old song says, "little things mean a lot". We're half-way through the primary season(s) and I expected to see Warren fade. She's handled herself very well, IMHO. She's the only candidate consistently issuing policy statements/proposals and has combined her media presence with local handshaking and baby-kissing.

If the scuttlebutt is accurate, she's also got some political acumen going for her. She argued her handlers into letting her implement a Selfie Hour after speeches and her public are eating it up. As I said to someone in a PM today, she's got the political chops of Bernie but is combining it with Oprah-style brand recognition.

The fact that Trump will unload on her, particularly about the long-dragged-out NA ancestry, is probably a bonus. I know of zero progressives or liberals who've said they're not willing to support her over the issue and I think Trump directly attacking (he can't help himself, poor baby) yet another female is going to lock in a lot of moderate women's votes.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:24 AM   #1034
Aridas
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Stopping corrupt people from holding office is one thing.

But the other side of the coin is to attract the best and brightest by giving them more money for doing a good job in government than they would in the private sector.

Maybe Warren has some ideas about that?
Three points.

1) There are some things in a somewhat similar line to that included in that plan. Things like taxing lobbying after $500,000 and using the money from that to help pay for more objective assessments.

2) The nature of the point that you're citing reminds me most of the GOP's harping on the budget and the deficit (albeit only when Democrats are in power). There's a fair point to be made there, but because of the forces that have been pushing it into the public consciousness and how they've done it, it probably is of great benefit to us all to seriously take a closer look at what's going on there. In this case, for example, there are underlying issues about the nature of the competitiveness between government and business. It's fairly certainly much more complex than simply invoking the pay, and also fairly certain that by only invoking pay, you're supporting exactly the kind of skewed worldview that certain extremely rich and questionably ethical "conservatives" want spread to strengthen their hand.

3) The plan involves a lot more than just "stopping corrupt people from holding office" and invoking "how do we attract the best and the brightest" honestly feels like it's more of a dodge than anything else, especially when it would be fair to say that the plan has a fair focus on helping to prevent the best and brightest that we already have (albeit greatly winnowed by the Trump Administration in practice) from becoming corrupt problems themselves. Of course, you could be poking around the edges of an opinion that potential avenues for corrupt action is an essential part of attracting enough competent people to staff government positions well?

3a) This is Warren. She's got a plan for that.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I despise most of it.
Given the axioms that you've chosen to endorse, that's probably a very good indicator that they're on the right track.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Her lobbying policy makes her sound like the shotgun lady from Harrison bergeron. I'm sorry that there are people good at petitioning their government. She hates them for being good at it.
If that's your takeaway? You're missing the point completely.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She wants to expand the definition of lobbyist and then ban them from donating to a candidate. That is a fundamental act of speech.
As stated in the plan... you're correct. That's one of the points of disagreement that I have with the stated plan as well, actually, when it comes to personal, already distinctly limited contributions. Still, I doubt that even a Congress with Democratic supermajorities in both House and Senate would agree to legislate such (though I was quite disappointed with the Anti-BDS push) and if they did, even a distinctly liberally leaning court would allow it to stand.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Sold.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:35 PM   #1035
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How bad is it getting for Kamala? She's on the verge of dropping to fifth in the polling. In her home state.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:46 PM   #1036
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
As he says, he is the opposite of Donald Trump.
That might be true, but he has one problem:After Trump, a lot of Dems are going to be very reluctant to vote for a candidate who has had almost no experience in Government.
Sure Yang's opponents will hit him with this in the primaries.
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Old 19th September 2019, 04:50 PM   #1037
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Turns out that Williamson apparently played footsy with 9/11 Conspiracy Theories back in 2012.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/19/polit...ile/index.html
It probably does not matter much...she is not long for this race anyway...but it might hasten her departure and help cull the herd earlier.
Gee,someone who made her career selling flaky ideas has flaky ideas. Who would have thunk it?
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Old 19th September 2019, 05:10 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That might be true, but he has one problem:After Trump, a lot of Dems are going to be very reluctant to vote for a candidate who has had almost no experience in Government.
Sure Yang's opponents will hit him with this in the primaries.
Are you serious? Do you think that most Democrats were of the opinion that Trump’s main drawback is his lack of experience?
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Old 19th September 2019, 08:26 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Are you serious? Do you think that most Democrats were of the opinion that Trump’s main drawback is his lack of experience?
Seriously.

The list of problems with Trump goes:
1) Aspiring dictator
2) SUPER Bigoted buttwad
3) Nuttier than a squirrel turd
4) Depraved con artist extraordinaire
5) Traitor
6) Sexual Assaulter

...and about 382 more things till you get to "383) Previously inexperienced at politics", if that even makes the list at all.
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Old 19th September 2019, 08:45 PM   #1040
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That might be true, but he has one problem:After Trump, a lot of Dems are going to be very reluctant to vote for a candidate who has had almost no experience in Government.
Sure Yang's opponents will hit him with this in the primaries.
I suspect he might have bigger issues: https://www.gothamgazette.com/opinio...nt-he-fired-me
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