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Old 29th July 2019, 09:37 AM   #401
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And to hold your analogy true, we should have no protections in place against anything that would make less than 6000 victims per year. How many people die in plane crashes per year? Less than 6000? Down with air travel safety regulations!
You're not very good at gotchas. We have so few air crashes because of the existing safety regulations.

Perhaps we should stop with analogies, we're straying from the topic and giving great pain to at least one person reading this. Argument by analogy is like sticking pins into his eyes!
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:40 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you wish to argue do it yourself, don't try to incite others to do so.
I've been arguing quite a bit in this thread, actually.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:58 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Given that under the (proposed in the UK) law cis men will also be given access to female-only facilities, what does it matter? It makes every facility a unisex facility.

That is the German solution, which I would recommend, but it's not without its detractors:

Quote:
Vor einem Jahr noch waren die Geschlechter strikt getrennt im Wunnebad: eine Gruppenumkleide für Frauen, eine für Männer. Jetzt ist umgebaut, und die beiden Gruppenumkleiden sind unisex, wie man so schön neudeutsch sagt, also für Männer und Frauen gleichermaßen. Manche Frau findet das unangenehm.
Wunnebad: Unisex-Sammelumkleiden spalten die Gemüter (ZVW, Oct. 17, 2017)

"One year ago, the sexes were separated in Wunnebath: a collective changing room for women, another one for men. Now it has been renovated, and both collective changing rooms are now unisex, like they say in North Germany, i.e. for both men and women. Some women find that unpleasant."

And since Americans tend to be pretty uptight, this would probably require at least another century to become accepted 'over there'.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:08 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
We must go to different gyms.

And I'm certain we went to different schools, because everyone I went to school with got naked several times a week, but that was in the old days, before the childhood obesity epidemic.

I can't speak for what happens in the women's locker rooms, but in the men's locker rooms there are naked guys, and there are a whole lot of guys in their underwear.


In fact, even though I haven't been in the women's locker rooms while they are in use, I'm pretty sure that there are disrobed females in there. Do you know why I think that? Because otherwise there would be no point in having a locker room.


Why do people do this? "Oh....that never happens anyway, so it doesn't matter." Fine. Then abolish locker rooms and changing rooms because they are irrelevant to the entire conversation. What's the point of having a locker room if no one ever takes off their clothes?


I think the real answer is that people do, in fact, take off their clothes, and I think everyone knows that.
When I shower at the gym, I disrobe in the private, doored shower stall. Not in the changing room. When I change from my street clothes into work-out clothes and vice-versa, I strip down to my underwear and change in the changing room. It's not the "parade-around the room with your junk hanging out" room, and other than people in their 60-70's, nobody strips down completely.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:11 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
People clearly haven't stopped publicly complaining about it, have you somehow missed that entire referendum about it just a year ago? What you said was that there were no reports from issues in female-only facilities, but given that the issues which would be reported are no longer illegal that's what we call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I voted in that referendum just a year ago, which in practical significance outweighs all the chatter on this and every other thread on the topic. Two things about that referendum I definitely didn't miss:

First, the continuation of the law was approved by an overwhelmingly large majority of voters.

Second, opponents of the continuation of the law were unable to cite any actual incident of locker room assault, harassment, or voyeurism by trans-identifying users of such facilities in the state during the past two years the law had been in effect. Their "anti" case was based entirely on a contrived bathroom safety argument.

Do you think the word "contrived" is unfair there? The "anti" organizers in the referendum, MassResistance, doesn't agree: they say outright that it was contrived.

Quote:
The rallying cry of the pro-family groups trying to repeal the law was the well-known “bathroom safety” argument – that in addition to transgenders, this law allows male sexual predators to lurk in women’s restrooms to prey on girls and women. This was technically true, but was largely contrived.
Quote:
Our side concocted the “bathroom safety” male predator argument as a way to avoid an uncomfortable battle over LGBT ideology, and still fire up people’s emotions. It worked in Houston a few years ago.

https://www.massresistance.org/docs/...-analysis.html

Hey, it worked in Houston. Maybe it'll work in Iowa. But what arguments would MassResistance preferred to use? These:

Quote:
About a month before the election, MassResistance activists formed their own “No to 3” ballot committee to campaign on this. They felt strongly that three important points were not being presented to the public: (1) the LGBT movement’s “civil rights” argument has no basis whatsoever; (2) that “transgenderism” is actually a mental disorder and a destructive ideology, and (3) this law forces people to accept an absurd lie – men can never become women.

Any resemblance to arguments raised in this thread are probably not coincidental. (But they wouldn't have worked in Massachusetts either.)
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:11 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When I shower at the gym, I disrobe in the private, doored shower stall. Not in the changing room. When I change from my street clothes into work-out clothes and vice-versa, I strip down to my underwear and change in the changing room. It's not the "parade-around the room with your junk hanging out" room, and other than people in their 60-70's, nobody strips down completely.
I think you might be suffering from a case of "My experiences are the only experiences."

More open (to various degrees) changing/showering/locker/etc spaces exist and shouldn't be dismissed as "LOL Stopping Watch Porn."
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:14 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think you might be suffering from a case of "My experiences are the only experiences."

More open (to various degrees) changing/showering/locker/etc spaces exist and shouldn't be dismissed as "LOL Stopping Watch Porn."
Nor should actual real life experience be dismissed in favor of assumption and speculation.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:17 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nor should actual real life experience be dismissed in favor of assumption and speculation.
Sure. You should also floss before going to bed and check your tire pressure before long road trips since we're just throwing out random good advice.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:20 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it's evidence of bizarre thought and motivations on the part of a poster, and that those who support their cause are attempting to downplay it.
Well, if you remember correctly I was one of the people who called Rolfe on that, and yet I still think that it was not central to her argument.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:22 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do.
That's certainly true. It does not mean that every disagreemeng has its root in this. It would be a mistake to dismiss all arguments on the basis that some of those who make other arguments are bigots.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:24 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, if you remember correctly I was one of the people who called Rolfe on that, and yet I still think that it was not central to her argument.
Who said it was "central"? Or that it has to be, in order to be discussed? That basketball player's Flat Eartherism isn't central to his professional basketball career but people do bring it up a lot! How weird of them!
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:25 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I voted in that referendum just a year ago, which in practical significance outweighs all the chatter on this and every other thread on the topic. Two things about that referendum I definitely didn't miss:

First, the continuation of the law was approved by an overwhelmingly large majority of voters.

Second, opponents of the continuation of the law were unable to cite any actual incident of locker room assault, harassment, or voyeurism by trans-identifying users of such facilities in the state during the past two years the law had been in effect. Their "anti" case was based entirely on a contrived bathroom safety argument.
So you retract your claim that people have stopped publicly complaining about it in Massachusetts? Yes, if voyeurism (a guy taking a look around in the female-only changing room) isn't illegal anymore then there won't be any "incidents" of it anymore, obviously.

Quote:
Do you think the word "contrived" is unfair there? The "anti" organizers in the referendum, MassResistance, doesn't agree: they say outright that it was contrived.
What I'm saying is that your argument of there not being any reports is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it used to be illegal for a guy to flash his junk around in a female-only changing room (exhibitionism) and now it stops being illegal then obviously there won't be any reports of it afterwards.

Quote:
Any resemblance to arguments raised in this thread are probably not coincidental. (But they wouldn't have worked in Massachusetts either.)
Point 3 is a perfectly, objectively true statement; men can not become women.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:26 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think you might be suffering from a case of "My experiences are the only experiences."

More open (to various degrees) changing/showering/locker/etc spaces exist and shouldn't be dismissed as "LOL Stopping Watch Porn."
Ah, well if actual experience can be dismissed because of imagined scenarios, I guess you win.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:27 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Unisex isn't the same thing as allowing transwomen into women's rooms, though. Are the assaults cited by transwomen, or even men pretending to be transwomen, or are they by cis men?
If the changing rooms are segregated but allow transwomen in on the basis of self-identification then any male-bodied person can go in there, on their own say-so. So the rooms might as well be unisex afaics. Unisex is the extreme case, not a transitional one.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:27 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ah, well if actual experience can be dismissed because of imagined scenarios, I guess you win.
I'm really confused here.

Why is my experiences "imagined" and yours not? You seem to think your experiences inherently carry more weight then everyone else.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:29 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
If the changing rooms are segregated but allow transwomen in on the basis of self-identification then any male-bodied person can go in there, on their own say-so. So the rooms might as well be unisex afaics. Unisex is the extreme case, not a transitional one.
This is familiar as a right-wing straw man, that transwomen are just men who declare themselves to be women.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:30 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
This is familiar as a right-wing straw man, that transwomen are just men who declare themselves to be women.
No they are men who identify as women, not declare it, which is totally different.

Seriously you can't have "No True Scotsman" and "Identity as" in the same argument.

If someone says they are Trans, they are Trans. That's what "Identify as" means.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:38 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So you retract your claim that people have stopped publicly complaining about it in Massachusetts? Yes, if voyeurism (a guy taking a look around in the female-only changing room) isn't illegal anymore then there won't be any "incidents" of it anymore, obviously.

Voyeurism is illegal. The trans rights law authorizes the state to investigate and prosecute cases of false assertion of trans identity for improper purposes.

Harassment and assault are illegal regardless.

Where are the complaints of such incidents in MA that would supposedly be unleashed on young women by the trans rights law? There are none.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that your argument of there not being any reports is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it used to be illegal for a guy to flash his junk around in a female-only changing room (exhibitionism) and now it stops being illegal then obviously there won't be any reports of it afterwards.

Exhibitionism is illegal. The trans rights law authorizes the state to investigate and prosecute cases of false assertion of trans identity for improper purposes.

Harassment and assault are illegal regardless.

Where are the complaints of such incidents in MA that would supposedly be unleashed on young women by the trans rights law? There are none.

Quote:
Point 3 is a perfectly, objectively true statement; men can not become women.

Great. Please explain how Point 3 is relevant to whether or not Massachusetts trans citizens and guests should have rights against discrimination.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:39 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm really confused here.

Why is my experiences "imagined" and yours not? You seem to think your experiences inherently carry more weight then everyone else.
You have actually been in women's changing rooms that only had a large, communal shower that was used rather than sitting empty? Or a men's changing room?

Mind, I am talking about within the last 40 years or so. I think my junior high school had an open room for a shower, but nobody used it, and that was not exactly recent.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:41 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You have actually been in women's changing rooms that only had a large, communal shower that was used rather than sitting empty? Or a men's changing room?
For fu..... YES. Countless times. Plenty of times.

And yes recently.

But I get a feeling either a "Well you're a liar" or "Well that doesn't count because of mumble-reasons-mumble" is coming my way.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:46 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Voyeurism is illegal. The trans rights law authorizes the state to investigate and prosecute cases of false assertion of trans identity for improper purposes.
One of the central questions for me is, "what's a false assertion?"

Other important questions:

"How do you investigate a false assertion?"

And

"How do you prove a false assertion?"

You seem to be a supporter of this law, and an apparent proponent of the claim that the law adequately protects against false assertions for voyeuristic purposes. As such, would you be willing to answer these questions?

I'm someone who is concerned about the risks of legalizing gender-by-personal-assertion. So arguments that these risks can be mitigated by persecution of false assertion would go a long way towards gaining my support for such legalization.

What say you?

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Old 29th July 2019, 10:47 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry, I lost track of what you're actually trying to argue, with all of the sarcasm. Could you restate your point in plain terms?

Are you actually arguing that tampon-thievery is an important issue that needs addressing ahead of all other conversations in this thread?
I believe he is, or thinks he is, imitating something you said in one of the Trump threads.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:47 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Voyeurism is illegal. The trans rights law authorizes the state to investigate and prosecute cases of false assertion of trans identity for improper purposes.

{...}

Exhibitionism is illegal. The trans rights law authorizes the state to investigate and prosecute cases of false assertion of trans identity for improper purposes.
That's a nice theory. Voyeurism is illegal but the actual act, namely going in to take a look around at the undressed women, isn't. Exhibitionism is illegal but the actual act, going in to flash your junk around, isn't. False assertion of trans identity for improper purposes is illegal but unenforceable since the assertion of trans identity establishes actual trans identity (unless you've got some real idiot who'd actually say to the cops that he only did so for improper purposes).

Quote:
Where are the complaints of such incidents in MA that would supposedly be unleashed on young women by the trans rights law? There are none.
I'd bet you $50 that they're classed under "hate crimes." Exhibitionist guy goes into female-only changing room, flashes his junk around, some woman challenges him, he claims to be transgender, she calls the cops, the cops charge her with a hate crime for gender identity discrimination. So where are all the reports? You'll find them under the "hate crime" header.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:48 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
This is familiar as a right-wing straw man, that transwomen are just men who declare themselves to be women.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No they are men who identify as women, not declare it, which is totally different.

Seriously you can't have "No True Scotsman" and "Identity as" in the same argument.

If someone says they are Trans, they are Trans. That's what "Identify as" means.
Not really. "Identify as" includes genuine trans women but it also includes the predators and pervs, plus everyday *********, who use that identification to further their nasty aims. If self-identification is the only measure, that is.

Strikes me that this is at the heart of the whole debate - do we expose cis women - the vast majority of women* - to all the nasties in order to accommodate the trans women?

(Now that I type that, it strikes me that of course the trans women would also be exposed to the very same nasties)

* There is no way that I can see to qualify that word in this context.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:55 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Not really. "Identify as" includes genuine trans women but it also includes the predators and pervs, plus everyday *********, who use that identification to further their nasty aims. If self-identification is the only measure, that is.
That just special pleads/begs the question.

They can't be trans.. until they do something wrong and then they get kicked out of the club.

You can't put a behavior into the, already damn near meaningless, gender/sex categorization criteria.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:00 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of the central questions for me is, "what's a false assertion?"

Other important questions:

"How do you investigate a false assertion?"

And

"How do you prove a false assertion?"

You seem to be a supporter of this law, and an apparent proponent of the claim that the law adequately protects against false assertions for voyeuristic purposes. As such, would you be willing to answer these questions?

I'm someone who is concerned about the risks of legalizing gender-by-personal-assertion. So arguments that these risks can be mitigated by persecution of false assertion would go a long way towards gaining my support for such legalization.

What say you?

I'm not licensed to practice law in Massachusetts, nor have I accepted any nominations for any public office whose duties would include resolving such questions.

Perhaps when complaints of improper behavior in bathrooms or changing rooms by people falsely claiming trans identity actually occur in Massachusetts, such questions will be addressed. Police, DAs, and courts don't deal in hypotheticals.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:03 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's a nice theory. Voyeurism is illegal but the actual act, namely going in to take a look around at the undressed women, isn't. Exhibitionism is illegal but the actual act, going in to flash your junk around, isn't. False assertion of trans identity for improper purposes is illegal but unenforceable since the assertion of trans identity establishes actual trans identity (unless you've got some real idiot who'd actually say to the cops that he only did so for improper purposes).

I'd bet you $50 that they're classed under "hate crimes." Exhibitionist guy goes into female-only changing room, flashes his junk around, some woman challenges him, he claims to be transgender, she calls the cops, the cops charge her with a hate crime for gender identity discrimination. So where are all the reports? You'll find them under the "hate crime" header.

I'm not the one claiming that such stealth incidents of trans rights abuse are actually occurring under the MA trans rights laws. Perhaps you can find them under the "hate crime" header, if you want to make a case that they exist. Otherwise, I'm going to continue asserting the overwhelming likelihood that they don't.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:04 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For fu..... YES. Countless times. Plenty of times.

And yes recently.

But I get a feeling either a "Well you're a liar" or "Well that doesn't count because of mumble-reasons-mumble" is coming my way.
Oh, I wouldn't dream of calling you a liar. I'm absolutely convinced that you've been in countless group shower scenes. You bet.

I will say that LA Fitness, Planet Fitness, and 24-7 Fitness do not have showers like that. Nor do the changing rooms at multiple Florida Panhandle area beaches, South Carolina Beaches, and Virginia Beaches. Similarly, every campground I have stayed at in 10 different states had individual private showers. I don't know where you are finding these group showers, but I wouldn't call you a liar for claiming to have showered there countless times.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:04 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'd bet you $50 that they're classed under "hate crimes." Exhibitionist guy goes into female-only changing room, flashes his junk around, some woman challenges him, he claims to be transgender, she calls the cops, the cops charge her with a hate crime for gender identity discrimination. So where are all the reports? You'll find them under the "hate crime" header.
Yes it must be like in Canada now, where any naked man can go into women's changing-rooms while having an erection, take photos of people and sexually harass them. No one dares to call the police because they know they are the one's going to be arrested the police for being intolerant, because non of these things are actually illegal in Canada except complaining about them. Even Children aren't safe in Canadian changing-rooms.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:05 AM   #430
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I'd really like an answer to this question.

Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Please explain how Point 3 is relevant to whether or not Massachusetts trans citizens and guests should have rights against discrimination.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh, I wouldn't dream of calling you a liar. I'm absolutely convinced that you've been in countless group shower scenes. You bet.

I will say that LA Fitness, Planet Fitness, and 24-7 Fitness do not have showers like that. Nor do the changing rooms at multiple Florida Panhandle area beaches, South Carolina Beaches, and Virginia Beaches. Similarly, every campground I have stayed at in 10 different states had individual private showers. I don't know where you are finding these group showers, but I wouldn't call you a liar for claiming to have showered there countless times.
But this is all a hijack anyway.

My point was if your reality is correct and all showers have become so functionally private as to not make a difference... then it doesn't make a difference which one the trans people are in.

If it's so private it doesn't make a difference... then it doesn't make a difference.

We keep landing on "It makes a HUUUUUGEEE difference to the transpeople but it makes NOOOOOOOOO differences to everybody else" and staying there.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:07 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I'm not the one claiming that such stealth incidents of trans rights abuse are actually occurring under the MA trans rights laws. Perhaps you can find them under the "hate crime" header, if you want to make a case that they exist. Otherwise, I'm going to continue asserting the overwhelming likelihood that they don't.
And given that active exhibitionists outnumber transgender people 10-to-1 I'll continue asserting the overwhelming likelihood that they do.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:08 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes it must be like in Canada now, where any naked man can go into women's changing-rooms while having an erection, take photos of people and sexually harass them. No one dares to call the police because they know they are the one's going to be arrested the police for being intolerant, because non of these things are actually illegal in Canada except complaining about them. Even Children aren't safe in Canadian changing-rooms.
You understand that exhibitionism neither requires one to have an erection, nor to take pictures of others, nor to sexually harass others, do you?
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:09 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I'd really like an answer to this question.
It isn't relevant, you're the one who brought it up.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:16 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You have actually been in women's changing rooms that only had a large, communal shower that was used rather than sitting empty? Or a men's changing room?

Mind, I am talking about within the last 40 years or so. I think my junior high school had an open room for a shower, but nobody used it, and that was not exactly recent.
In all of the schools i went to there was always two large open changing room's connected to large open shower-rooms. One for boys and one for girls. I'm not 100% sure but i also think there were individual "private" shower rooms, just in case there were someone who absolutely didn't want to shower together or if they needed help with showering, in case they suffered from some kind of handicap.

And yes, since these were the only showers available they were used by pretty much everyone. I should note that this was in Sweden.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:17 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You understand that exhibitionism neither requires one to have an erection, nor to take pictures of others, nor to sexually harass others, do you?
Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. I was describing the situation that women face in Canada.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:17 AM   #437
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Same in Belgium, group showers after P.E. weren't just the norm, they were a requirement.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:17 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I will say that LA Fitness, Planet Fitness, and 24-7 Fitness do not have showers like that. Nor do the changing rooms at multiple Florida Panhandle area beaches, South Carolina Beaches, and Virginia Beaches. Similarly, every campground I have stayed at in 10 different states had individual private showers. I don't know where you are finding these group showers...

Hey, my high school gym facilities in PA had group showers like that! Just a big tiled room with shower heads all around the walls and around a central pillar.

Of course, that entire building was demolished and completely rebuilt a decade ago. Maybe those showers were part of the reason why.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:21 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I'm not licensed to practice law in Massachusetts, nor have I accepted any nominations for any public office whose duties would include resolving such questions.

Perhaps when complaints of improper behavior in bathrooms or changing rooms by people falsely claiming trans identity actually occur in Massachusetts, such questions will be addressed. Police, DAs, and courts don't deal in hypotheticals.
This seems like a dodge.

Private individuals have a vested interest in public policy, and we have standing to opine on public policy.

You don't have to be a lawyer or an elected official to have an opinion on whether this law represents good policy, or is well-written, or is likely to have the desired effect.

Ultimately, if the question ever does arise, you're going to be called upon, if only by your own conscience, to judge whether the lawyers and the politicians have answered it poorly or well.

Certainly if you choose, you can examine right now what your own criteria would be, for judging whether a trans claim is true or false, and answer what those criteria would be. You can, if you choose, sketch out for us the standard to which you expect to hold the lawyers and politicians who will be navigating this issue.

My point is that a provision for adjudicating false claims is useless, if we have no idea how we'd go about identifying or ruling on such claims.

Since you were the one who brought up the provision, I figured you must have some opinion of how it should be applied. As a member of society, I think it's incumbent on you to have opinions on what the law should do. And I think it's reasonable to ask you to articulate those opinions when the question of good or bad law comes up.

If you haven't developed or examined your own opinions on this point yet, that's okay. But I think it's an abdication of your responsibility as a member of society, to defer to the opinions of others when you're asked about it. The elected representative was elected by you (collectively) to carry out in public policy the things that you think public policy should do.

Ultimately, the measure of this law is your own opinion of it. Ultimately, you'll judge the lawyer and the politician based on how closely they hew to your own opinion. So I'm asking you for your opinion. Say you don't have one yet, if you don't have one yet. But don't say your opinion will be whatever the lawyers and the politicians end up doing. We both know that's not true.

I mean, you voted for the law, yes? Surely your vote was predicated on your own assessment, hypothetical and otherwise, of the value of the law as public policy. You were dealing in hypotheticals, without regard to what lawyers and politicians might think, the moment you stepped into the voting booth. Why stop now?
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:27 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It isn't relevant, you're the one who brought it up.

I brought it up because it was one of the three points that the anti-trans-rights-law coalition in MA brought up as one of their three preferred grounds for opposing the existing trans rights law. You felt it was worth stating that (in your opinion) the assertion is true. But that doesn't address the question of how it relates to opposition to trans rights laws.

It is entirely relevant, given that people in these discussion threads and in public polities are putting it forth as a reason to oppose trans rights legislation. People in wheelchairs aren't really pedestrians, but civil rights laws allow them access to walkways designated for pedestrians anyhow. "Not really pedestrians" is not accepted as a valid argument. "Not really women" shouldn't be either. Do you agree?
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