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Old 29th July 2019, 11:33 AM   #441
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I should note here that yet again there seems to be some kind of double standard at play.

Women can and often do shower and change clothes together with other women in public facilities yet i could swear no one has been banging on about how awful it is because this leaves them vulnerable to female exhibitionists, or whatever disgusting deviants might use this for their own sickening purposes. Same thing with guys.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:34 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But this is all a hijack anyway.

My point was if your reality is correct and all showers have become so functionally private as to not make a difference... then it doesn't make a difference which one the trans people are in.

If it's so private it doesn't make a difference... then it doesn't make a difference.

We keep landing on "It makes a HUUUUUGEEE difference to the transpeople but it makes NOOOOOOOOO differences to everybody else" and staying there.
Alternatively, we keep getting stuck on how we daren't let men in the changing room when women have stripped down to their underwear, so we have to force trans-women to strip down to their feminine underwear in the men's changing room. Which is apparently better, as one man surrounded by women is a far bigger threat to those women than a group of men surrounding a single trans-woman in her underwear.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:37 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Alternatively, we keep getting stuck on how we daren't let men in the changing room when women have stripped down to their underwear, so we have to force trans-women to strip down to their feminine underwear in the men's changing room. Which is apparently better, as one man surrounded by women is a far bigger threat to those women than a group of men surrounding a single trans-woman in her underwear.
You can try to make "Straight Cis Men are the odd group out in the 'You have to prove they are a threat' standards" sound noble or paint me as unreasonable for bringing it up all you want.

If you can understand why women want a place to be safe from men without triggering your outrage subroutine, you should at least be able to conceptualize it for other groups as well, or at least discuss it outside of a context of "Oh you're just scared/hatefilled."
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:42 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I brought it up because it was one of the three points that the anti-trans-rights-law coalition in MA brought up as one of their three preferred grounds for opposing the existing trans rights law. You felt it was worth stating that (in your opinion) the assertion is true. But that doesn't address the question of how it relates to opposition to trans rights laws.

It is entirely relevant, given that people in these discussion threads and in public polities are putting it forth as a reason to oppose trans rights legislation. People in wheelchairs aren't really pedestrians, but civil rights laws allow them access to walkways designated for pedestrians anyhow. "Not really pedestrians" is not accepted as a valid argument. "Not really women" shouldn't be either. Do you agree?
If you're arguing that men should be allowed into women-only spaces because "men aren't really women" shouldn't apply, then no, I don't agree. Your analogy is flawed because people in wheelchairs are effectively pedestrians, but men aren't effectively women. In other words, the set men+women is everyone, but the set pedestrian+wheelchairs isn't everyone, there are also bike riders or car drivers.

If you were to make this analogy it would be that infertile women should be allowed into women-only spaces, because even though technically not women, they are effectively women. Or that infertile men and women should have human rights even though they aren't technically human, but they are effectively human.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:45 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can try to make "Straight Cis Men are the odd group out in the 'You have to prove they are a threat' standards" sound noble or paint me as unreasonable for bringing it up all you want.

If you can understand why women want a place to be safe from men without triggering your outrage subroutine, you should at least be able to conceptualize it for other groups as well, or at least discuss it outside of a context of "Oh you're just scared/hatefilled."
Can you explain how the desire to be safe from [booga-booga]MEN[/booga-booga] is not functionally equivalent to being scared?
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:48 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Can you explain how the desire to be safe from [booga-booga]MEN[/booga-booga] is not functionally equivalent to being scared?
I don't understand your question.

I'm saying a desire to be "separate" (whether due to concerns of safety or not, comfort or not, etc) from men is not functionally different from a desire to be separate from other groups, lest not to the degree that one should fully embrace one and slap the "bigot / -phobe" label on the other.

I'm judging anyone for being scared or uncomfortable. I'm judging them for placing their fear or comfort above other people's in the exact same circumstances.

ETA: People speak of people taking of trans/homosexual people as predatory in hushed tones like this evil thing, but all talk of men in women's spaces is that with no concern.

I'm as allowed to be offended and make as much an issue about it that a woman considers me a threat simply because I'm a cis-male as someone else does being considered a threat simply for being trans or black of whatever.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:50 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
<snip>
... infertile women should be allowed into women-only spaces, because even though technically not women, they are effectively women. Or that infertile men and women should have human rights even though they aren't technically human, but they are effectively human.
Infertile women aren't technically women? Infertile men and women aren't technically human? Wow, here I thought your comparison of trans-people to pedophiles was a bad argument...
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:51 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If it's so private it doesn't make a difference... then it doesn't make a difference.

We keep landing on "It makes a HUUUUUGEEE difference to the transpeople but it makes NOOOOOOOOO differences to everybody else" and staying there.
Instead of viewing this as some kind of implicit attack on cis men, why not view it as an issue of dignity? That's honestly the only reason I've seen this brought up from trans activists; the idea is that by denying them access to something like a bathroom, an organization/society/whatever is either telling them "you're really a man and we all know it," or "it doesn't matter what makes you feel comfortable, we don't want you around us." Constantly denying someone their humanity is seriously damaging to the people affected, whether or not it "makes a difference" to you personally or not. That was one of the main arguments against segregation and the "separate but equal" position so many state governments had taken.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:52 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Infertile women aren't technically women? Infertile men and women aren't technically human? Wow, here I thought your comparison of trans-people to pedophiles was a bad argument...
Your ignorance of the definitions of female and species as well as basic logic is neither my responsibility nor my problem.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:53 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
That was one of the main arguments against segregation and the "separate but equal" position so many state governments had taken.
I find it odd that this comparison comes up so much in the Trans arguments.

We didn't "solve" segregation or Separate but Equal by retaining the black and white water fountains but telling people "You can self identity as black or white so, problem solved."

ETA: And the real irony is... I'm already doing that. If I was in public/private* bathroom or locker room and a biological woman who identified as a man sat down next to me... I wouldn't care.

The difference is I also wouldn't care if a biological woman that identified as a woman sat down next me.

I treat transpeople the way I'm told I have to, but since I don't threat them that way because they are special exceptions to rules I still want enforced that's not good enough.

*Slight hijack. I hate the fact that we don't have a simple term for... like shared private spaces. I mean places in some level of privecy is a reasonable expectation like toilets and showers and locker rooms and so forth but in or attached to public space and accessible by the public.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:53 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because I'm not the one who gets to decide what my objective characteristics are.
Why not? Can't you alter your characteristics?
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:57 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why not? Can't you alter your characteristics?
*Confused* Can you alter all of yours?
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:59 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That just special pleads/begs the question.

They can't be trans.. until they do something wrong and then they get kicked out of the club.

You can't put a behavior into the, already damn near meaningless, gender/sex categorization criteria.
Well, I'm trying to distinguish between 'claimants of convenience' (in the sense of wanting to take advantage of the opportunity to do harm) and those who truly identify as women who genuinely feel bad about using the men's facilities.
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:59 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm judging anyone for being scared or uncomfortable. I'm judging them for placing their fear or comfort above other people's in the exact same circumstances.
We may be making the same point, then. People placing their fear or discomfort with having a trans-woman in their changing room above the fear and/or comfort of that trans-woman being forced to use the male changing room are the people I'm judging as well.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
ETA: People speak of people taking of trans/homosexual people as predatory in hushed tones like this evil thing, but all talk of men in women's spaces is that with no concern.

I'm as allowed to be offended and make as much an issue about it that a woman considers me a threat simply because I'm a cis-male as someone else does being considered a threat simply for being trans or black of whatever.
I've used unisex bathrooms in Ireland, at the Cliffs of Moher for instance. One trailer in the parking lot has/had 5 stalls (iirc) that either sex went in and used. There was a line, and people weren't refusing to use the bathroom with strangers of the opposite sex in the same room. In fact, other than us Americans, nobody seemed to bat an eye.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:00 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Well, I'm trying to distinguish between 'claimants of convenience' (in the sense of wanting to take advantage of the opportunity to do harm) and those who truly identify as women who genuinely feel bad about using the men's facilities.
Listen unless clairvoyance is on the table we can't tell so... what's even to discuss?

Do you really want a bunch of people playing the "You're not really trans" card?
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:03 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
We may be making the same point, then. People placing their fear or discomfort with having a trans-woman in their changing room above the fear and/or comfort of that trans-woman being forced to use the male changing room are the people I'm judging as well.

I've used unisex bathrooms in Ireland, at the Cliffs of Moher for instance. One trailer in the parking lot has/had 5 stalls (iirc) that either sex went in and used. There was a line, and people weren't refusing to use the bathroom with strangers of the opposite sex in the same room. In fact, other than us Americans, nobody seemed to bat an eye.
Well that puts us right back at the start having gone nowhere.

Like I said I already treat transpeople the way I'm told I have to treat them. If I'm in the locker room or bathroom or whatever and a biological woman who identifies as a man sat down next to me I wouldn't (all things being equal obviously) bat an eye.

The problem seems to be I also wouldn't bat an eye if a woman who identified as a woman sat down... but that means I'm not treating the transperson the way I am because they are special exception to a rule I still want enforced and that is not good enough.

Apparently I'm doing the right thing for the wrong reason.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I find it odd that this comparison comes up so much in the Trans arguments.

We didn't "solve" segregation or Separate but Equal by retaining the black and white water fountains but telling people "You can self identity as black or white so, problem solved."
Do you actually think this is a serious argument? No, segregation was ended by removing many of the institutional barriers that told black Americans "you're not really a person" on a day to day basis.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:08 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well that puts us right back at the start having gone nowhere.

Like I said I already treat transpeople the way I'm told I have to treat them. If I'm in the locker room or bathroom or whatever and a biological woman who identifies as a man sat down next to me I wouldn't (all things being equal obviously) bat an eye.

The problem seems to be I also wouldn't bat an eye if a woman who identified as a woman sat down... but that means I'm not treating the transperson the way I am because they are special exception to a rule I still want enforced and that is not good enough.

Apparently I'm doing the right thing for the wrong reason.
Perhaps I missed the part where people said you had to treat others equally, but only for the right reason?

But just stick it to those jerks by doing the right thing, while knowing in your heart of hearts that you are doing it for totally the wrong reason. That'll get em good.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:10 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Infertile women aren't technically women? Infertile men and women aren't technically human? Wow, here I thought your comparison of trans-people to pedophiles was a bad argument...
The entire controversy here is a controversy of social norms and definitions. If we're going to play around with what it means to be a woman, then it's disingenuous to complain that caveman is playing around with what it means to be a woman, or to be a human.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:11 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
But just stick it to those jerks by doing the right thing, while knowing in your heart of hearts that you are doing it for totally the wrong reason. That'll get em good.
Bull ****. I have to do this every discussion. I get the "Oh just keep doing the right thing" speech.

No. Not when the "bigot" label is on the line. Being called a bigot means something these days and I hate, ******* hate getting the "Oh well just accept it" routine about it.

Don't sit there and tell me to quietly, calmly, with a smile on my face, and a spring in my step get called a bigot.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:13 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The entire controversy here is a controversy of social norms and definitions. If we're going to play around with what it means to be a woman, then it's disingenuous to complain that caveman is playing around with what it means to be a woman, or to be a human.
I'm not even playing around, I'm just using the standard mainstream definitions. A female mammal is one who produces ova. An organism X is a member of (sexually reproducing) species S iff X can successfully reproduce with at least some members of S.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:13 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Three years now since the Massachusetts state law outlawing gender identity discrimination was passed. (Close to one year since it was upheld by public referendum.)

Still waiting for the flood of reports of school girls or anyone else suffering from the side effects of this. Or even a trickle. Or one. Trans rights opponents should be all over those like Republicans on a Willie Horton.

Lots of interesting discussion of hypothetical issues going on, though. Keep at it.
Yeah personally I never bought this boogeyman.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:15 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems like a dodge.

Private individuals have a vested interest in public policy, and we have standing to opine on public policy.

You don't have to be a lawyer or an elected official to have an opinion on whether this law represents good policy, or is well-written, or is likely to have the desired effect.

Ultimately, if the question ever does arise, you're going to be called upon, if only by your own conscience, to judge whether the lawyers and the politicians have answered it poorly or well.

Certainly if you choose, you can examine right now what your own criteria would be, for judging whether a trans claim is true or false, and answer what those criteria would be. You can, if you choose, sketch out for us the standard to which you expect to hold the lawyers and politicians who will be navigating this issue.

My point is that a provision for adjudicating false claims is useless, if we have no idea how we'd go about identifying or ruling on such claims.

Since you were the one who brought up the provision, I figured you must have some opinion of how it should be applied. As a member of society, I think it's incumbent on you to have opinions on what the law should do. And I think it's reasonable to ask you to articulate those opinions when the question of good or bad law comes up.

If you haven't developed or examined your own opinions on this point yet, that's okay. But I think it's an abdication of your responsibility as a member of society, to defer to the opinions of others when you're asked about it. The elected representative was elected by you (collectively) to carry out in public policy the things that you think public policy should do.

Ultimately, the measure of this law is your own opinion of it. Ultimately, you'll judge the lawyer and the politician based on how closely they hew to your own opinion. So I'm asking you for your opinion. Say you don't have one yet, if you don't have one yet. But don't say your opinion will be whatever the lawyers and the politicians end up doing. We both know that's not true.

I mean, you voted for the law, yes? Surely your vote was predicated on your own assessment, hypothetical and otherwise, of the value of the law as public policy. You were dealing in hypotheticals, without regard to what lawyers and politicians might think, the moment you stepped into the voting booth. Why stop now?

I voted to retain the existing law, that had already been in effect for two years. That's what the referendum was about. Retain or repeal.

There were not at the time, and to my knowledge are not as of today, any relevant incidents to discuss.

This means you are demanding me to spin hypotheticals. After I do so, I suspect you will lose no time in accusing me of merely spinning hypotheticals. So be it.

Hypothetical #1: A woman accuses a male-appearing trans person of voyeurism and verbal harassment in a changing room. Investigation, including interviews with location staff and other patrons, reveals that the "suspect" had used the facilities regularly as a trans woman for some months, and had consistently conducted herself in the changing room in the manner of an ordinary user of the facilities. While there were no other witnesses present for the claimed incident and of course no recordings, so nothing can be proven with certainty, the facilities management and law enforcement conclude that there's insufficient evidence to take action against the trans woman. The incident blows up on social media, resulting in the trans woman and the accuser both being subject to abuse and accusations. Over time, a narrative emerges of an escalating confrontation between them having taken place in the changing room in which neither comes out looking good. The accuser asked the trans woman to please turn away or move to a different part of the room so she could change; the trans woman took offense and called her a transphobic bitch; she threatened to claim assault; he deliberately exposed himself to her; though of course all the details are disputed. No laws or policies are changed as a result.

Hypothetical #2: A handful of incidents similar to hypothetical #1 occur over a few month period scattered in the western portion of the state. The main differences are that most cases involve multiple women present who corroborate the reports of improper behavior; and in each case, the trans woman accused lacks any background of having lived as a woman or having used those particular facilities before. Though at first the outcomes are similar to in hypothetical #1, investigators suspect that the trans women involved are falsely presenting as trans-but-not-really and deliberately provoking complaints in pursuit of an anti trans rights agenda. Investigation uncovers links between some of the supposed trans women and an out of state "family values" political organization. There is not sufficient evidence for a conspiracy case, but on the strength of the witness testimony, one or two of the supposed trans women are individually charged with harassment or public lewd behavior, with the general support of the trans community and the public. No laws or policies are changed as a result.

Hypothetical #3: A man assaults a woman in a woman's rest room. He's charged with trespassing and assault. His lawyers claim that he was feeling his feminine side that day and therefore had every right to enter the woman's room. The DA rolls his eyes, shrugs his shoulders, and drops the trespassing charge. (Some pundits want additional charges for assertion of a false gender identity for nefarious purposes, but the DA's office doesn't want the hassle.) The man plea bargains for eighteen months and goes on the sex offender registry. No laws or policies are changed as a result.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:15 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Bull ****. I have to do this every discussion. I get the "Oh just keep doing the right thing" speech.

No. Not when the "bigot" label is on the line. Being called a bigot means something these days and I hate, ******* hate getting the "Oh well just accept it" routine about it.

Don't sit there and tell me to quietly, calmly, with a smile on my face and a spring in my step get called a bigot.
Somehow, I must have missed folks calling you a bigot for not acting bigoted.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:17 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Somehow, I must have missed folks calling you a bigot for not acting bigoted.
Well I have not.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:18 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The entire controversy here is a controversy of social norms and definitions. If we're going to play around with what it means to be a woman, then it's disingenuous to complain that caveman is playing around with what it means to be a woman, or to be a human.
At what point was it ever the social norm that being infertile made you not human? You have to do a lot of definition twisting and ignoring to even get to a point where being a woman by definition means you have to be fertile. By that stupid claim, every single woman who lives long enough somehow becomes not a woman.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:20 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
At what point was it ever the social norm that being infertile made you not human? You have to do a lot of definition twisting and ignoring to even get to a point where being a woman by definition means you have to be fertile. By that stupid claim, every single woman who lives long enough somehow becomes not a woman.
I think you're missing the broader point.

You can't take "Currently has a vagina and not a penis" off the "Official Woman Checklist" and then try to appeal to "traditional (or hell any) gender roles."
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:20 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh, I wouldn't dream of calling you a liar. I'm absolutely convinced that you've been in countless group shower scenes. You bet.

I will say that LA Fitness, Planet Fitness, and 24-7 Fitness do not have showers like that. Nor do the changing rooms at multiple Florida Panhandle area beaches, South Carolina Beaches, and Virginia Beaches. Similarly, every campground I have stayed at in 10 different states had individual private showers. I don't know where you are finding these group showers, but I wouldn't call you a liar for claiming to have showered there countless times.
I find it odd that you seem fixated with the group showers don't exist thing.

It isn't that rare.

Some schools. Heaps of sports clubs

Maybe you just move in different higher class circles, as they are cheaper to build
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:20 PM   #469
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I guess the controversy boils down to two simple questions with very complicated answers:

First, should women be allowed to establish "safe spaces" free from male presence?

Second, should transwomen be entitled to use such "safe spaces" established for women?

As far as I can tell, Rolfe's answers seem to be "Yes", and "Maybe", respectively.

Those are more or less my own answers.

I wonder how other participants in this thread would answer those questions.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:23 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I find it odd that you seem fixated with the group showers don't exist thing.

It isn't that rare.

Some schools. Heaps of sports clubs

Maybe you just move in different higher class circles, as they are cheaper to build
Public beach changing rooms are now high class? Campground showers? If this is your version of high class, so be it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:25 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you're arguing that men should be allowed into women-only spaces because "men aren't really women" shouldn't apply, then no, I don't agree. Your analogy is flawed because people in wheelchairs are effectively pedestrians, but men aren't effectively women. In other words, the set men+women is everyone, but the set pedestrian+wheelchairs isn't everyone, there are also bike riders or car drivers.

Who's arguing that all men are women, or that all men are effectively women? We don't say all non-pedestrians (such as automobile passengers) are wheelchair users or that they're effectively pedestrians.

Try this: trans women are a small fraction of people and are effectively women, just as wheelchair users are a small fraction of people and effectively pedestrians.

Quote:
If you were to make this analogy it would be that infertile women should be allowed into women-only spaces, because even though technically not women, they are effectively women. Or that infertile men and women should have human rights even though they aren't technically human, but they are effectively human.

WTF? Infertile women are allowed into women-only spaces; are you disagreeing wit that? Good luck arguing that some people aren't technically human.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:27 PM   #472
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My Junior High and High Schools were both equipped for group showers. In Junior High, it was constantly rumored - by both students and staff - that group showers after Phys. Ed. classes would be instituted "next semester". But the dreaded policy never materialized. Looking back on it now, I suspect it was never going to materialize.

By High Scool, no such policy was ever even rumored. The showers were there, at one end of the locker room, but everyone pretty much ignored them. Even when I was on the wrestling team, nobody hit the showers after practice. We all just slipped our sweaty bods out of our sweaty workout clothes and into our usual daytime outifts, and went home to do whatever boys do after school and before falling asleep. Probably bathe in private at some point.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:29 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Try this: trans women are a small fraction of people and are effectively women, just as wheelchair users are a small fraction of people and effectively pedestrians.
Trans women aren't effectively women, and if they are then so are the rest of men since the only distinction between trans women and other men is their state of mind, which isn't observable.

Quote:
WTF? Infertile women are allowed into women-only spaces; are you disagreeing wit that? Good luck arguing that some people aren't technically human.
No, what I was arguing was that wheelchair users are effectively pedestrians in the same way infertile women are effectively women or infertile people in general are effectively human, as opposed to trans women not being effectively women.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:32 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When I shower at the gym, I disrobe in the private, doored shower stall. Not in the changing room. When I change from my street clothes into work-out clothes and vice-versa, I strip down to my underwear and change in the changing room. It's not the "parade-around the room with your junk hanging out" room, and other than people in their 60-70's, nobody strips down completely.
Sounds like the solution is to bar old people from locker rooms.


However, darned near everyone in the locker rooms strip down to underwear, and I'm guessing the same is true over on the ladies' side, because otherwise there would be no point to a locker room. To my way of thinking, that still presents a problem for the girls in their underwear.


And yeah, it's a generational thing. I am assured by my son and by my young friends that no one ever showers after gym class, because no one ever sweats in gym class anyway. Progress. I guess.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:41 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Public beach changing rooms are now high class? Campground showers? If this is your version of high class, so be it.
Apparently

All the camping grounds I have been to are segregated, but plenty of sports clubs and older schools aren't.

Don't know about beach changing rooms. Never used one. Have toilets

I have seen ones with just a shared outside shower where people keep their swimming costume on

Guess Surf clubs have them, but if you are a member of the public we normally rock up. Swim. Dry out. Leave. Shower at home

Are they a foreign thing
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:47 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the controversy boils down to two simple questions with very complicated answers:

First, should women be allowed to establish "safe spaces" free from male presence?

Second, should transwomen be entitled to use such "safe spaces" established for women?

As far as I can tell, Rolfe's answers seem to be "Yes", and "Maybe", respectively.

Those are more or less my own answers.

I wonder how other participants in this thread would answer those questions.
Exactly as you have, but with a proviso. 'Self identification' as trans is so open to abuse as to write it off as a means to access these safe spaces.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:49 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Exactly as you have, but with a proviso. 'Self identification' as trans is so open to abuse as to write it off as a means to access these safe spaces.
Yep! Simple question, complicated answers. I'm about where you're at, regarding self-identification.

Anyway, I hope more participants will take the time to give their own answers. I feel like we'd be making more sense to each other, and talking past each other less, if we each took a moment to stake out our basic position on these two points.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:50 PM   #478
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Think the biggest one here would be public indoor swimming pool changing rooms

Maybe the ladies are different, but in the majority of pools I have been to the changing rooms are all open plan

Some have individual shower cubicles built along the wall, but they are so piddly you can't actually get dressed without

a) Soaking your clothes from the shower

b) Breaking your arms against the walls getting your pants on
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:51 PM   #479
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And for all of the people boo-hooing about no one talking about transmen, let me state for the record that I think allowing a transboy to use a boys' high school locker room is about the stupidest thing I can possibly imagine. This is a Very Bad Idea.

Curiously, I have never heard of a case where such access was demanded by a trans boy. I have heard of demands for access to bathrooms, but never to locker rooms. I do remember hearing of cases in junior high school, but never in high school. Go figure. Maybe they just don't make the news, or maybe by the time the transboy reaches 14, he's figured out why it might not be a good idea for a person with his sort of body to take off his clothes in front of a bunch of high school guys.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:55 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the controversy boils down to two simple questions with very complicated answers:

First, should women be allowed to establish "safe spaces" free from male presence?

Second, should transwomen be entitled to use such "safe spaces" established for women?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, I hope more participants will take the time to give their own answers. I feel like we'd be making more sense to each other, and talking past each other less, if we each took a moment to stake out our basic position on these two points.
Question 1. No.
Question 2. Irrelevant because of question 1, but no within its own context.
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