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Old 29th July 2019, 12:56 PM   #481
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The "what's it like in your locker room" stuff is a bit of a diversion, though not completely irrelevant, so I feel compelled to ask one more question.


While it may be that no one sweats after gym class anymore, so there aren't any showers in high school, I'm guessing that the basketball teams still sweat. And I'm guessing that they take showers after the game. And I'm guessing that the vistors' team still uses the opposite sex locker rooms at out of town games.


So, how do they manage that these days? Surely these people get naked in front of people of the same sex. At least, surely the boys do? Don't they? How else do they manage? Or does that bus just stink to high heaven on the way home?


Or is it that no one here knows because we are all old men, or people who weren't athletic enough to be on sports teams in high school?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 29th July 2019 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:57 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And for all of the people boo-hooing about no one talking about transmen, let me state for the record that I think allowing a transboy to use a boys' high school locker room is about the stupidest thing I can possibly imagine. This is a Very Bad Idea.

Curiously, I have never heard of a case where such access was demanded by a trans boy. I have heard of demands for access to bathrooms, but never to locker rooms. I do remember hearing of cases in junior high school, but never in high school. Go figure. Maybe they just don't make the news, or maybe by the time the transboy reaches 14, he's figured out why it might not be a good idea for a person with his sort of body to take off his clothes in front of a bunch of high school guys.
Very good point tbh
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:58 PM   #483
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Hell, a lot of cis-boys aren't too keen on undressing in front of other cis-boys.

Even as a grown man with a lot of mundane experience with locker rooms at the gym and elsewhere, it still requires a conscious effort for me to make that paradigm shift into "this is okay, just roll with it" whenever I go to hit the showers and change into street clothes.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:09 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Question 1. No.
Question 2. Irrelevant because of question 1, but no within its own context.
Interesting. I'm going to rephrase your answers as statements, to see if I understand correctly your position. Please don't take this as a rebuttal or strawman argument or anything. Just want to see if I've got it:

Your position seems to be that the problem is best solved by abolishing gendered safe spaces altogether. But, in the mean time, until society catches up with you, gendered safe spaces should not be open to transgenders.

Is that about right?
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:10 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, if you remember correctly I was one of the people who called Rolfe on that, and yet I still think that it was not central to her argument.

Pretty much nothing of what has been posted has been central to her argument. Her argument, as derived from nearly every trans thread she has posted in, is "trans people are icky and scary and ought not to be allowed". Everything has been an attempt to justify that or shout down and demonize opponents.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:14 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Interesting. I'm going to rephrase your answers as statements, to see if I understand correctly your position. Please don't take this as a rebuttal or strawman argument or anything. Just want to see if I've got it:

Your position seems to be that the problem is best solved by abolishing gendered safe spaces altogether. But, in the mean time, until society catches up with you, gendered safe spaces should not be open to transgenders.

Is that about right?
Accurate, with some caveats.

Now I am realistic and... not a sociopath and I do understand that under our current system transgender people put themselves into potential danger by accessing the "wrong" spaces in some instances so I'm not going to sacrifice their safety at the alter of some sort of ideological purity, I think some compromises would have to be made. I'm not going to make some poor transgender person be forced to get beaten or killed just to prove a point.

Ideally segregation based on sex/gender roles should not exist in anything resembling its current form and my personal ideal is a world in which transgenderism doesn't really work as a concept because the roles it's an exception/subversion of wouldn't exist anymore not because anyone would be required to hide or deny any part of themselves.

Until then I'm hesitant and skeptical of allowing exceptions, but I also want that tempered against (and erring on the side of) the safety of a group that is just trying understand themselves, which I respect no matter how much I don't "get."

I don't have a perfect wrapped in a bow neat little answer, and some of this probably would require trying things out and seeing how well it works and adjusting if necessary, but that's the gist of it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:15 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Pretty much nothing of what has been posted has been central to her argument. Her argument, as derived from nearly every trans thread she has posted in, is "trans people are icky and scary and ought not to be allowed". Everything has been an attempt to justify that or shout down and demonize opponents.
No it's "men are icky and scary and ought to not be allowed" which is perfectly acceptable until some of those men identify as women at which point it becomes a human rights issue.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:22 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No it's "men are icky and scary and ought to not be allowed" which is perfectly acceptable until some of those men identify as women at which point it becomes a human rights issue.

Funny that she has not, to my knowledge, expressed any issues with the existence of men in the world; while she has on numerous occasions expressed issues with the existence of transpeople (transwomen and transmen). This goes well beyond any "scary menz in bathroom" thing, if you read the other threads she's posted her rants in. Particularly the "transmen are erasing lesbians" thread; that was very informative.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:23 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Pretty much nothing of what has been posted has been central to her argument. Her argument, as derived from nearly every trans thread she has posted in, is "trans people are icky and scary and ought not to be allowed". Everything has been an attempt to justify that or shout down and demonize opponents.
Pure strawman.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:23 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Funny that she has not, to my knowledge, expressed any issues with the existence of men in the world; while she has on numerous occasions expressed issues with the existence of transpeople (transwomen and transmen). This goes well beyond any "scary menz in bathroom" thing, if you read the other threads she's posted her rants in. Particularly the "transmen are erasing lesbians" thread; that was very informative.
Well yeah because nobody is arguing she shouldn't have a safe space from traditional men so she's not on about it.

Trust me, it's come up before.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:27 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Funny that she has not, to my knowledge, expressed any issues with the existence of men in the world;
Probably because existing social norms have already addressed this issue by establishing and upholding safe spaces for women, free of male presence. It's probably not fair to condemn her for not complaining about a solved problem.

Quote:
while she has on numerous occasions expressed issues with the existence of transpeople (transwomen and transmen).
Existence? I doubt it. I doubt you can find even a single occasion on which she's expressed issues with the existence of transpeople.

On the other hand, efforts by transactivists to un-solve the solved problem of safe spaces for women, seems like completely legitimate grounds for complaint by people who think that's a problem that needs solving, regardless of their position on the existence of transsexuals.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:34 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Accurate, with some caveats.

Now I am realistic and... not a sociopath and I do understand that under our current system transgender people put themselves into potential danger by accessing the "wrong" spaces in some instances so I'm not going to sacrifice their safety at the alter of some sort of ideological purity, I think some compromises would have to be made. I'm not going to make some poor transgender person be forced to get beaten or killed just to prove a point.

Ideally segregation based on sex/gender roles should not exist in anything resembling its current form and my personal ideal is a world in which transgenderism doesn't really work as a concept because the roles it's an exception/subversion of wouldn't exist anymore not because anyone would be required to hide or deny any part of themselves.

Until then I'm hesitant and skeptical of allowing exceptions, but I also want that tempered against (and erring on the side of) the safety of a group that is just trying understand themselves, which I respect no matter how much I don't "get."

I don't have a perfect wrapped in a bow neat little answer, and some of this probably would require trying things out and seeing how well it works and adjusting if necessary, but that's the gist of it.
I have been on the planet a wee while now, but this must be the first time I have seen someone who has a problem with women only gyms.

But then I have never heard of an this epidemic of trans women being killed for using the dudes bogs, so maybe I live in an insulated world
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:38 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I have been on the planet a wee while now, but this must be the first time I have seen someone who has a problem with women only gyms.
I don't like the fact that transphobes treat transpeople and homophobes treat gays the way society treats men, as barely contained sexual predators who are going to give into their base desires the second we let our guard down that people need safe spaces from.

Guilty as charged.

"I don't want that gay man in my locker room while I'm getting undressed because he might rape me" - homophobic.

"I don't want that transgender woman in my locker room while I'm getting undressed because she might rape me" - transphobic

"I don't want that man in my locker room while I'm getting undressed because he might rape me" - perfectly acceptable to the point it confuses people when you don't think it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:49 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the other hand, efforts by transactivists to un-solve the solved problem of safe spaces for women, seems like completely legitimate grounds for complaint by people who think that's a problem that needs solving, regardless of their position on the existence of transsexuals.
We're getting a bit out over our skis to call the problem solved. It's not like there was ever an easy answer about where to shower at the gym when you've got both boobs and balls.
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:11 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Existence? I doubt it. I doubt you can find even a single occasion on which she's expressed issues with the existence of transpeople.

Again, I recommend you read that thread, since you are clearly unaware (willfully?) of the depth of her hatred/fear of transpeople, transmen as well as transwomen.
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:12 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
In all of the schools i went to there was always two large open changing room's connected to large open shower-rooms. One for boys and one for girls.

Yes, me too!

Quote:
I'm not 100% sure but i also think there were individual "private" shower rooms, just in case there were someone who absolutely didn't want to shower together or if they needed help with showering, in case they suffered from some kind of handicap.

They didn't have the "individual "private" shower rooms" at my schools, but I think that most schools have them nowadays in addition to the communal showers.

Quote:
And yes, since these were the only showers available they were used by pretty much everyone. I should note that this was in Sweden.

Same thing in Denmark, but let me elaborate a little about what it was like: Boys will be boys, I guess, so we would make fun of each other based on what we saw in the showers and changing rooms, but if I remember correctly, somebody who was wearing what the rest of us considered to be the wrong kind of clothes would be teased more mercilessly than somebody whose dick wasn't considered to be the right shape or size. (And speaking of shapes and sizes. In Denmark at that time we were all uncircumcised. I don't know if circumcisions may make Muslims shy about communal showers nowadays.)
I was the youngest boy in my class, which was never really a problem except at the time when puberty set in, which it did much earlier for the boys who were sometimes a year older than those of us who were among the youngest. I remember the time spent in the changing rooms and the showers for those 1-2 years as pretty awful because having reached puberty became a kind of status symbol that some of us didn't live up to. But when the change had happened to all of us, it was no longer a problem. I don't think anybody was traumatized.

I've mentioned my experience with public nudity in Germany a couple of times. In my mid-twenties I had a girlfriend in Germany, and the German attitude tends to be even more relaxed than that of Scandinavians. Also in my experience, (some) men fear public nudity even more than women: 'What do I do if I have a freak erection?' 'Will people laugh at me when we go swimming and the inevitable shrinking sets in?'
In my experience, there's no reason to fear any of those things, and I think the fear comes from the inevitable sexualization of nudity that happens when you are only ever undressed when you are either alone or having sex with somebody. Bathing naked at the beach helps de-sexualize nudity, which is probably why the freak erections don't seem to occur. And the shrinking, George Costanza's worst nightmare? Yes, it happens, and more so in the cold waters of Scandinavia than in most other places, I guess, but people don't usually go to the beach unless it's pretty hot, so the male genitalia soon return to their normal sizes, and nobody is really as interested in the size and shape of them as we tend to fear.

All in all, I think that the German attitude to nudity is the most sensible way to deal with this.
And I can't imagine that they have a problem with transsexuals in communal showers or changing rooms that is remotely similar to what we've seen described in the USA.

I even think that caveman1917's perpetual, 'trans women are men', would evaporate in a German context where it would probably be met with: 'Do you really think so? And so ******* what?! Get used to it!'
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:18 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hell, a lot of cis-boys aren't too keen on undressing in front of other cis-boys.

Even as a grown man with a lot of mundane experience with locker rooms at the gym and elsewhere, it still requires a conscious effort for me to make that paradigm shift into "this is okay, just roll with it" whenever I go to hit the showers and change into street clothes.

You should do it more often. It doesn't take long before it becomes a habit.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:26 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And yeah, it's a generational thing. I am assured by my son and by my young friends that no one ever showers after gym class, because no one ever sweats in gym class anyway. Progress. I guess.

A setback, in my opinion. We're in the middle of an obesity and diabetes type 2 epidemic, and young people should learn to work up a sweat in gym class - and to shower afterwards, which I think they still do in Scandinavia.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:36 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Again, I recommend you read that thread, since you are clearly unaware (willfully?) of the depth of her hatred/fear of transpeople, transmen as well as transwomen.
I have read that thread. I'm not going back read between the lines to find whatever personal motivations you believe are behind her arguments.

Better if you just cite the evidence that supports your claim, or else leave the arguer alone and just address her argument instead.
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:37 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You should do it more often. It doesn't take long before it becomes a habit.
You should not pretend to know my habits, nor the details of my routine.
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:45 PM   #501
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I never went into any details.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:55 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I never went into any details.
Nope. You just assumed the details you needed to justify your "advice".

In fact I have been going to the gym three to five times a week for years. It's about as habitual as a thing can be. But I am a shy and private person, and even after years it's still a mental effort.

Your advice, pretending to know the details of my situation, is as useless to me as it is presumptuous.
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Old 29th July 2019, 04:21 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Again, I recommend you read that thread, since you are clearly unaware (willfully?) of the depth of her hatred/fear of transpeople, transmen as well as transwomen.
I read the thread. Rolfe had solid arguments. You have the usual skeptic play sheet--tired and hackneyed shaming tactics.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:40 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I read the thread. Rolfe had solid arguments. You have the usual skeptic play sheet--tired and hackneyed shaming tactics.
this
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:02 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is wrong with seeing genitalia of both sexes? I can't think of a reason why it would bother someone. A penis isn't great looking, but that seems like it would lend itself to indifference.
I'm confused by the whole thing too, but i'm not religious so maybe i'm just missing the point.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:20 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
this
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I'm confused by the whole thing too, but i'm not religious so maybe i'm just missing the point.
It is a commonplace modern skeptical pose, to not understand human beings, what they are, and how they work.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:09 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
She's apparently fooling me. I haven't read a word in a long time from her that I disagreed with.



(Edited)
Seems to be fooling me too. Reading Rolfe's posts has clarified the issues for me tremendously.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You also believe men pretend to be transgender so they can steal used tampons from public ladies rooms?
I agree that that was a weird thing to worry about.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:18 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why not? You already presume the authority to dictate who is and who isn't a woman, and who can and cannot enter the ladies room. You may as well go an inch further and command all the sexes, not just the one.
No one is dictating biological facts. If you think that we shouldn't have sex-segregated spaces, but rather spaces segregated by gender or not at all, that's fine. I think Rolfe has made some good arguments against that view, but Rolfe isn't arguing that people can't or shouldn't identify as a different gender, rather she has been arguing that that identification doesn't alter their biological sex.

She then goes on to argue that when it comes to sex-segregated spaces, it is sex rather than gender that should be used as a segregation criteria.

I'm not seeing anyone dictating anything in that.
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:23 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What I mean is that the two sexes did not evolve independantly. They're not separate species.
Sexual dimorphism arose and is maintained through evolution, and specifically through selection pressures.

It is as true that the differences between the sexes evolved and were selected for as that eyes evolved through natural selection.

Personally I think that Dawkins is right that understanding the process of evolution becomes much clearer if you think about the gene as the unit of selection.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:37 PM   #510
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I rarely posts in threads on this topic because my mindset is still very fluid and I am still not confident in my positions enough to really engage. I would say except for a few exceptions posters have been expressive of their opinions and explained why thoughtfully.

Do proponents of these solutions view them as protecting the emotional/mental well being of trans individuals or protecting them from possible physical confrontation, or more likely some combination of both? I've seen both expressed by different organizations but they were probably referring to different specifics, not necessarily schools.
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Old 30th July 2019, 01:48 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Seriously, stop posting. You aren't fooling anyone.
Disagreed. Fortunately your guidance is to be discarded.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
She's apparently fooling me. I haven't read a word in a long time from her that I disagreed with.
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Seems to be fooling me too. Reading Rolfe's posts has clarified the issues for me tremendously.
Likewise.
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Her argument, as derived from nearly every trans thread she has posted in, is "trans people are icky and scary and ought not to be allowed". Everything has been an attempt to justify that or shout down and demonize opponents.
No. Your posts (five so far) are classic shout-down demonisations though because you seem to be terrible at addressing arguments.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I read the thread. Rolfe had solid arguments. You have the usual skeptic play sheet--tired and hackneyed shaming tactics.
Yes.
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Old 30th July 2019, 02:30 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When I shower at the gym, I disrobe in the private, doored shower stall.
Whether or not there are stalls must vary from place to place.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who said it was "central"? Or that it has to be, in order to be discussed?
No one. I'm simply clarifying Mead's point that it isn't what we should be focusing on.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying a desire to be "separate" (whether due to concerns of safety or not, comfort or not, etc) from men is not functionally different from a desire to be separate from other groups, lest not to the degree that one should fully embrace one and slap the "bigot / -phobe" label on the other.
Well, that depends. What if I want to be separate from blacks?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why not? Can't you alter your characteristics?
By belief? No. What if I identify as blonde but have black hair? Hell, even if I dye my hair, I'm still not a blonde. I can call you a bigot all day long for telling me that my hair is black, but it won't change the facts.
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Old 30th July 2019, 02:37 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Somehow, I must have missed folks calling you a bigot for not acting bigoted.
Oh, trust me. It happens quite a bit.
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Old 30th July 2019, 03:39 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Seems to be fooling me too. Reading Rolfe's posts has clarified the issues for me tremendously.
Great, perhaps you would like to discuss the issue of the tampon fetishists then?

Apparently trans-women cannot be allowed to use the same bathrooms as other ("real") women because some of them might be used tampon fetishists, and there's a supposedly very real possibility that they may take used tampons from sanitary wastebaskets in public restrooms. This possibility would cause women no shortage of discomfort and anxiety.

What's your take on this most troubling issue? Are used tampon fetishists who are trans-women more dangerous than other women who happen to be used tampon fetishists?
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Old 30th July 2019, 03:54 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Disagreed. Fortunately your guidance is to be discarded.


Likewise.
No. Your posts (five so far) are classic shout-down demonisations though because you seem to be terrible at addressing arguments.
Yes.
Well, shame on you too then.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:05 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Great, perhaps you would like to discuss the issue of the tampon fetishists then?

Apparently trans-women cannot be allowed to use the same bathrooms as other ("real") women because some of them might be used tampon fetishists, and there's a supposedly very real possibility that they may take used tampons from sanitary wastebaskets in public restrooms. This possibility would cause women no shortage of discomfort and anxiety.

What's your take on this most troubling issue? Are used tampon fetishists who are trans-women more dangerous than other women who happen to be used tampon fetishists?
That's a ludicrous line of argument. You've taken one tiny element of a huge subject and are hammering people with it as if it proves a point. It doesn't.

Do you have any reaction to the much greater issue of the sex attacks, voyeurism and harassment associated with mixed-sex changing rooms in the UK that I posted upthread?
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:06 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That's a ludicrous line of argument. You've taken one tiny element of a huge subject and are hammering people with it as if it proves a point. It doesn't.

Do you have any reaction to the much greater issue of the sex attacks, voyeurism and harassment associated with mixed-sex changing rooms in the UK that I posted upthread?
How many of those who did the sexual harassment were transsexuals?
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:11 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That's a ludicrous line of argument. You've taken one tiny element of a huge subject and are hammering people with it as if it proves a point. It doesn't.
It was Rolfe who brought it up and it clearly seemed to be of some importance to them. Otherwise, why would they have repeatedly brought up the problem with used tampon fetishists and used it as an argument to bar trans-women from women's restrooms?

Quote:
Do you have any reaction to the much greater issue of the sex attacks, voyeurism and harassment associated with mixed-sex changing rooms in the UK that I posted upthread?
How much of it was caused by trans-women?
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Last edited by Arcade22; 30th July 2019 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:12 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How many of those who did the sexual harassment were transsexuals?
Are you now openly admitting that you're only using transsexuals as an excuse to expose women to sexual harassment by other men? Some sexual harassment will teach those "disgusting" and "misandrist" feminists about standing up for women's rights, amirite? ETA: Is this "sexual assaults and harassment are fine as long as it's not a transsexual doing it" the general policy of your department or just your personal one?
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:13 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
How much of it was caused by trans-women?
And now we get to the crux of the issue, you're only using trans-women's rights as an excuse to allow other men to sexually harass women.
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