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Old 30th July 2019, 04:23 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Pretty much nothing of what has been posted has been central to her argument.
That's impossible unless you're claiming that Rolfe isn't arguing anything, which clearly isn't the case.

Quote:
Her argument, as derived from nearly every trans thread she has posted in, is "trans people are icky and scary and ought not to be allowed".
Well, not that I agree with all of what she says but no, that's clealry not her argument.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:26 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, shame on you too then.
Shame on me for brushing away your personal assignment of shame? Yeah that works
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:28 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And now we get to the crux of the issue, you're only using trans-women's rights as an excuse to allow other men to sexually harass women.
Exactly! That's exactly what I'm doing! I only seek to allow men to sexually harass women with impunity. That's what all people who are pro-trans rights are really aiming at, everything else is just a smoke screen.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:30 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
By belief? No. What if I identify as blonde but have black hair? Hell, even if I dye my hair, I'm still not a blonde. I can call you a bigot all day long for telling me that my hair is black, but it won't change the facts.

If you dye your hair blonde, you have become a blonde. But you've not become a natural blonde.
If you amputate your junk, have it turned into a vagina, have hormone treatments and grow a pair of breasts, I'll have no problem with calling you a woman, but I'll disagree with you if you insist that you're a natural woman even if you'd like to feel that you are.

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Old 30th July 2019, 04:31 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is a commonplace modern skeptical pose, to not understand human beings, what they are, and how they work.
Some people become the theory rather than seeing how it works in the real world.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sexual dimorphism arose and is maintained through evolution, and specifically through selection pressures.

It is as true that the differences between the sexes evolved and were selected for as that eyes evolved through natural selection.

Personally I think that Dawkins is right that understanding the process of evolution becomes much clearer if you think about the gene as the unit of selection.
All that is true but does not contradict what I said.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:32 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, shame on you too then.
Wow, I'm sure that burned her real good.

Seriously, are luchog and yourself out of arguments now? If no, you should take your own advice, uke2se and stop posting.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:35 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Exactly! That's exactly what I'm doing! I only seek to allow men to sexually harass women with impunity. That's what all people who are pro-trans rights are really aiming at, everything else is just a smoke screen.
You were given evidence of high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities. Your response was to ask how much of it was committed by transwomen. How else would you interpret your response, other than one designed to justify the high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities by claiming that none of it was committed by transwomen (let's assume for the sake of argument that not a single incident was committed by a transwoman)?
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:38 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
What's your take on this most troubling issue? Are used tampon fetishists who are trans-women more dangerous than other women who happen to be used tampon fetishists?

Yes, they are, they are! They are trans-used-tampons fetichists, the very worst kind of used-tampon fetichists, shunned by the decent, respectable used-tampon-fetichist community!
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:47 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You were given evidence of high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities. Your response was to ask how much of it was committed by transwomen.
Exactly!

Quote:
How else would you interpret your response, other than one designed to justify the high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities by claiming that none of it was committed by transwomen (let's assume for the sake of argument that not a single incident was committed by a transwoman)?
Here, i will spell it out for you since the point apparently flew way over your head: If none of it was committed by trans woman how is it even remotely related to allowing trans women to use the same public facilities as other women?

Since it's perfectly legal for trans-women to use women's public facilities in many parts of the world there should be ample empirical statistical evidence of trans-women sexually harassing or assaulting other women. I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence about 1 or 3 people, I'm actually talking about serious statistical evidence that can be used for public policy decisions. Instead of this we get Rolfe's latest crazy fever dream about used tampon fetishists. Like what the ****?

It's really no different from the people who were shrieking how equalizing the age of consent for gay sex was like giving ladders to voyeurs.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:50 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Shame on me for brushing away your personal assignment of shame? Yeah that works
No, shame on you for cheering on a bigot.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:52 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Here, i will spell it out for you since the point apparently flew way over your head: If none of it was committed by trans woman how is it even remotely related to allowing trans women to use the same public facilities as other women?
How is it related to allowing all men to use the same public facilities as women? You seriously can't answer that question yourself? And, should you be confused about this, transwomen already have been allowed to use the same public facilities as women in the UK for years. The question is whether all men should be allowed to (ie whether all facilities should be turned into unisex facilities). The much higher incidence of sexual harassment in such facilities seems quite related indeed. But hey, sexual harassment is fine just as long as it's not a transwoman doing it... See, that's what we call "using transwomen as an excuse to expose women to sexual harassment" - just like I said.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:54 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, shame on you for cheering on a bigot.
Shame on you for arguing that sexual assaults are fine just as long as it's not committed by transsexuals, as well as your hateful rants against feminists. Your misogynistic bigotry is high even by police standards.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:55 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
How is it related to allowing all men to use the same public facilities as women?
That wasn't the question i asked. I suggest you re-read it since you apparently have some serious problems with reading comprehension.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:58 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
That wasn't the question i asked.
Yes, your question was entirely unrelated to the evidence GlennB presented to you.

Quote:
I suggest you re-read it since you apparently have some serious problems with reading comprehension.
[insert irony meter]
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:59 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How many of those who did the sexual harassment were transsexuals?
You're missing the point. It's not, by and large, trans people who are the problem. It's the contention that your gender is determined only by your feelings on the matter, which themselves can only be determined by your report, which must then be taken as gospel. It means that anyone can claim to be trans as a defense for their otherwise illegal actions and there's nothing you can do to disprove their claim.

Look at the wax parlor thing as an example of where that can go. The question is not whether it happens; it's whether it's a big enough problem to be a serious consideration.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:01 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, shame on you for cheering on a bigot.
Given that "a bigot is someone who disagrees with me" is the definition you're using, I'm sure Francesca will not lose much sleep over that.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:14 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, your question was entirely unrelated to the evidence GlennB presented to you.
No it was pretty related, since it completely undermined whatever guilt by association argument they sought to make against allowing trans-women to use the same public facilities as other women.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:18 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You were given evidence of high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities. Your response was to ask how much of it was committed by transwomen. How else would you interpret your response, other than one designed to justify the high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities by claiming that none of it was committed by transwomen (let's assume for the sake of argument that not a single incident was committed by a transwoman)?
Let me break it down.

An argument is being made that trans women should not be allowed to use women's facilities. One of the reasons, the one you're addressing now, is because of the risk that they may harass the cis women using that space.

As evidence, you cite the incidence of harassment in mixed sex facilities.

When we talk about risk management, it's important to use the groupings of information available to us. For instance, the total population has a certain risk of contracting lung cancer. The group of non-smokers has a lower risk. You'd be doing poor risk management if you applied the total population risk level to non smokers as a group. You'd be doing just as poor a job if you applied it to smokers. Discarding group specific information can be silly. A certain percent of the population are carjackers. But none of them are babies. If you're worried about a baby stealing your car, you have failed to adjust your risk metric to the appropriate subpopulation.

Let's label our groups.

First we have the group of all biological females, we'll call them group A

We've got the group of all biological males which we'll call group B
Then we've got a subgroup within biological males of trans women, we'll call them B1.

If when A and B share facilities, there is an incidence level of harassment of X, is that a strong argument that A and B1 should not share facilities?

Only to the extent that B1 carries the same risk of offending as B. If B1 has zero observed risk of offending, then we're looking at a situation like fearing the baby will steal your car.

I can imagine you might object to that example. "Babies are pretty much incapable of stealing your car, that doesn't apply to trans women, so even if no incidences were documented, a risk exists!"

Sure a risk exists. But then those incidence reports don't tell us anything useful.

We very rarely eliminate risk. We just minimize and get the best balance of risks we can. There is a non-zero risk of cis women harassing each other in locker rooms. In fact, they sometimes do! Why don't we just spring for individual changing rooms? why don't we just build individual changing rooms? People weigh the risks and costs and say that low risk level is not worth the high cost, even though in that case the cost is just money and space. Do you feel the people who run schools and don't build separate changing rooms are trying to justify same sex harassment?
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:24 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Let me break it down.

An argument is being made that trans women should not be allowed to use women's facilities. One of the reasons, the one you're addressing now, is because of the risk that they may harass the cis women using that space.
Again, no. See my post above. The issue is not that trans people are creeps. It's that creeps will pretend to be trans in order to have easier access to women in vulnerable contexts, and a means to defend themselves against accusations of malfeasance.




....Of course, anyone who pretends to be trans is trans, so I guess you have a point.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:29 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No it was pretty related, since it completely undermined whatever guilt by association argument they sought to make against allowing trans-women to use the same public facilities as other women.
Nobody made a guilt by association argument. They made the entirely correct argument that allowing all men to use the female-only facilities or, equivalently, turning all facilities into unisex facilities would increase the incidence of sexual harassment, and presented evidence to support that argument. The fact that the argument for turning all facilities into unisex facilities is based on gender ideology doesn't change that simple fact.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:32 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Let me break it down.

An argument is being made that trans women should not be allowed to use women's facilities. One of the reasons, the one you're addressing now, is because of the risk that they may harass the cis women using that space.

As evidence, you cite the incidence of harassment in mixed sex facilities.

When we talk about risk management, it's important to use the groupings of information available to us. For instance, the total population has a certain risk of contracting lung cancer. The group of non-smokers has a lower risk. You'd be doing poor risk management if you applied the total population risk level to non smokers as a group. You'd be doing just as poor a job if you applied it to smokers. Discarding group specific information can be silly. A certain percent of the population are carjackers. But none of them are babies. If you're worried about a baby stealing your car, you have failed to adjust your risk metric to the appropriate subpopulation.

Let's label our groups.

First we have the group of all biological females, we'll call them group A

We've got the group of all biological males which we'll call group B
Then we've got a subgroup within biological males of trans women, we'll call them B1.

If when A and B share facilities, there is an incidence level of harassment of X, is that a strong argument that A and B1 should not share facilities?

Only to the extent that B1 carries the same risk of offending as B. If B1 has zero observed risk of offending, then we're looking at a situation like fearing the baby will steal your car.

I can imagine you might object to that example. "Babies are pretty much incapable of stealing your car, that doesn't apply to trans women, so even if no incidences were documented, a risk exists!"

Sure a risk exists. But then those incidence reports don't tell us anything useful.

We very rarely eliminate risk. We just minimize and get the best balance of risks we can. There is a non-zero risk of cis women harassing each other in locker rooms. In fact, they sometimes do! Why don't we just spring for individual changing rooms? why don't we just build individual changing rooms? People weigh the risks and costs and say that low risk level is not worth the high cost, even though in that case the cost is just money and space. Do you feel the people who run schools and don't build separate changing rooms are trying to justify same sex harassment?
Yes, the fact that when A and B share facilities, there is an incidence level of harassment of X, is indeed a strong argument that A and B should not share facilities. And obviously B carries the same risk of offending as B, this follows from the law of identity: B = B.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:34 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It means that anyone can claim to be trans as a defense for their otherwise illegal actions and there's nothing you can do to disprove their claim.
Since when was it's legal for women to sexually harass or assault each-other? Following your reasoning it must be legal for women to sexually harass each-other, because that's the only way you could claim that allowing men to declare themselves a woman would make something illegal turn legal.

Even then, gender should definitely not be something to be solely be determined by a persons "feelings" or by them declaring it publicly. In terms of the law, being legally recognized as something other than the sex or gender you were born with should require a process, which would be finalized with such a legal recognition. That's the way it works here in Sweden.

Maybe things are different in Canada, where shouting "I identify as male" is, according to Rolfe, enough to allow any naked man to storm into women's changing-room's with an erection, sexually harass them and take intimate photos. Maybe that's how it works in the UK too, i don't know.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:35 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, no. See my post above. The issue is not that trans people are creeps. It's that creeps will pretend to be trans in order to have easier access to women in vulnerable contexts, and a means to defend themselves against accusations of malfeasance.




....Of course, anyone who pretends to be trans is trans, so I guess you have a point.
Ok, as people seem to continue to misunderstand this, trans women already are allowed into female-only facilities. The question is whether all men (trans women or cis men or whatever) should be or, in other words, whether all facilities should be turned into unisex facilities.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:38 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Even then, gender should definitely not be something to be solely be determined by a persons "feelings" or by them declaring it publicly. In terms of the law, being legally recognized as something other than the sex or gender you were born with should require a process, which would be finalized with such a legal recognition. That's the way it works where here in Sweden.
For the ******* last time, that's already the case in the UK and has been for years (it's called getting a Gender Recognition Certificate). The proposed change to the law is to remove that process and requirement, allowing all men access to female-only facilities or turn all facilities into unisex facilities. The process for getting a Gender Recognition Certificate is, for example, considered discriminatory against those who are gender fluid (who identify as men during sports, but then identify as women for the duration of the shower afterwards, before going back to identifying as men).
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:46 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The process for getting a Gender Recognition Certificate is, for example, considered discriminatory against those who are gender fluid (who identify as men during sports, but then identify as women for the duration of the shower afterwards, before going back to identifying as men).
I imagine this would create two sets of showers exclusively populated with males and no women (or transwomen for that matter) in either.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:47 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It was Rolfe who brought it up and it clearly seemed to be of some importance to them.
THEN PESTER HER TO TALK ABOUT IT and stop brow-beating people who only share a broad topical agreement.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:48 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I imagine this would create two sets of showers exclusively populated with males and no women (or transwomen for that matter) in either.
It's been obvious for a while now that the intended endgame of this is "Cisgendered straight males" as one group and literally everybody else as the other.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:51 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You were given evidence of high incidence of sexual harassment in unisex facilities. Your response was to ask how much of it was committed by transwomen.

That is a very relevant questions in a thread about girls who fear transsexuals in unisex facilities!

Quote:
"These figures show that women and girls are more vulnerable in mixed changing rooms and there is a danger these places are becoming a magnet for sexual offenders," says David Davies, MP for Monmouth.
(Independent, Sep. 2, 2018)

I would find it much more interesting to see similar figures from Germany where it is tradition and not something that the perverts may think of as an wonderful new opportunity.
I would be interested in hearing about similar figures for Germany. Four years ago, I spent a couple of days with my (Danish) girlfriend at the Andel's Hotel in Berlin. Even though she's a former stewardess and not uptight about nude swimming (even in Cuba where it tends to be frowned upon), she wasn't familiar with the appropriate attire in a German sauna. I was appropriately (un)dressed and she was wearing a bathing suit in the sauna when two German women (!), guests at the hotel, entered and told her that nudity was mandatory in the sauna. (We hadn't read the spa brochure: "Sauna and whirlpool are mixed nudist areas.")

By the way, this rule is mainly a question of hygiene. The have the same rule in the sauna at my local swimming pool, which isn't co-ed: It's to avoid chlorine fumes from the swimsuits after having used the pool. You are supposed to bring a towel to sit on.

In case you're wondering about the point I'm making:
This is something that takes time for a population to get used to. The British don't have the same tradition of public nudity as the Germans, but I'm very happy to hear that they are attempting to catch up with more enlightened countries in this respect.
Until they do, they'll probably have to consider what to do about the perverts until they learn that public changing rooms and public nudity isn't meant to be an opportunity for exhibitionists and voyeurs. By the way, the latter don't seem to let separate changing rooms and showers stop them. Not even private showers are safe from the voyeurs from all walks of life. (And I don't think that many of them are transsexuals):
Doctor hid cameras in shampoo bottles to spy on naked shower users (Express, April 3, 2015)
SECRET SNOOPER: Disabled perv who planted hidden cameras to film his female carers showering and shaving pubic hair is spared jail (The Sun, Nov. 12, 2017)
Using cellphones in public bathrooms, locker rooms is inappropriate (The Star, July 8, 2012)
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:51 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's been obvious for a while now that the intended endgame of this is "Cisgendered straight males" as one group and literally everybody else as the other.
There might be some initial self-sorting into two groups based on which shower they chose. But it wouldn't last beyond a day I expect (before it was common knowledge that both showers were 100% male)
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:52 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's been obvious for a while now that the intended endgame of this is "Cisgendered straight males" as one group and literally everybody else as the other.
Are you also forgetting the trans-men? I mean, Rolfe does it because she's misandrist. What's your excuse?
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I imagine this would create two sets of showers exclusively populated with males and no women (or transwomen for that matter) in either.
And I imagine that then we'll get uke2se coming in to rant about those "bigoted women" who refuse to take showers with the men. But your point in parentheses is well-taken, as there are tons of transwomen who also argue against these proposed legal changes who are then, as is to be entirely expected, shouted down by the activist crowd (I believe their term for these transwomen is "truscum").
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:55 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
There might be some initial self-sorting into two groups based on which shower they chose. But it wouldn't last beyond a day I expect (before it was common knowledge that both showers were 100% male)
Do you think that men would simly claim to be trans to get at the women's shower room?

Do you think that's how it works where this is already a reality?
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:55 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
For the ******* last time, that's already the case in the UK and has been for years (it's called getting a Gender Recognition Certificate). The proposed change to the law is to remove that process and requirement, allowing all men access to female-only facilities or turn all facilities into unisex facilities.
And yet I've only been arguing here about Rolfe's sick and demented horror stories about how utterly terrible it is that trans-women can use the same restrooms as other women, because apparently some of them would abuse that right to take used tampons. That's the concrete example they chose to bash trans-women with.

Yet some of you people apparently manage to twist that into me saying that anyone who says they are a woman should be recognized as such. How you manage that i will never know.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:56 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you also forgetting the trans-men? I mean, Rolfe does it because she's misandrist. What's your excuse?
All Lives Matter!
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:57 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Since when was it's legal for women to sexually harass or assault each-other? Following your reasoning it must be legal for women to sexually harass each-other, because that's the only way you could claim that allowing men to declare themselves a woman would make something illegal turn legal.
Well, I never said it turned it legal. What gave you that idea?

Quote:
Even then, gender should definitely not be something to be solely be determined by a persons "feelings" or by them declaring it publicly. In terms of the law, being legally recognized as something other than the sex or gender you were born with should require a process, which would be finalized with such a legal recognition. That's the way it works here in Sweden.
I agree. Unfortunately that's not what the activism claims.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:58 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And I imagine that then we'll get uke2se coming in to rant about those "bigoted women" who refuse to take showers with the men. But your point in parentheses is well-taken, as there are tons of transwomen who also argue against these proposed legal changes who are then, as is to be entirely expected, shouted down by the activist crowd (I believe their term for these transwomen is "truscum").
Oh I am sure that transwomen will also be vilified by activists for not wishing to shower next to dick as well.

Oh wait, no that's a preference that needs to be and is vehemently defended by the same activists. Because, erm . . . .
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:59 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you also forgetting the trans-men? I mean, Rolfe does it because she's misandrist. What's your excuse?
Aren't they included in "everyone else"?

Or did you skip set logic class?
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Old 30th July 2019, 06:00 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you also forgetting the trans-men? I mean, Rolfe does it because she's misandrist. What's your excuse?
Oh I guess it's because I'm a transphobic bigot because I don't agree with you about everything.
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Old 30th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you think that men would simly claim to be trans to get at the women's shower room?
It's unfortunate that you have me on ignore because right now you'd be reading a post by me pointing out to you that there was an example of exactly this sort of behaviour posted in this thread, specifically about a waxing business and someone who pretends to be trans just to get women to touch him in the nether-regions.

Yes, it's a small minority, but it happens, and it's a consideration for women who are expected to deal with this sort of nonsense.
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Old 30th July 2019, 06:02 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Oh I am sure that transwomen will also be vilified by activists for not wishing to shower next to dick as well.

Oh wait, no that's a preference that needs to be and is vehemently defended. Because, erm . . . .
What are you talking about?

Transwomen vilified for not wishing to shower next to a dick? Aside from the fact that it's kind of sad that a person is nothing more than his or her gentials to you, the reason I'm calling Rolfe a bigot, and you a supporter of bigotry, is that Rolfe has spent this and other threads heaping scorn on transpeople, painting them out to be everything from confused gay people to mentally deranged to dangerous sex predators. She so obviously bigoted towards transpeople that it kind of freaks me out to see otherwise rational people simply nod along and go "makes sense".

The people villifying trans-women are you guys. Your post above is nothing but weak ass projection.

Anti-trans bigotry is a much larger problem than I had previously realized, and that is evident in this thread.
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