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Old 30th July 2019, 07:01 AM   #641
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well if you put it that way, no. Sarcasm is a poor substitute for sincerity.
Certificate was for Joe, it's not transferable.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:02 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You cannot control events, you can only control your reaction to events.
Come on, TM. While that's true in principle, you know full well that you can goad people into reacting in ways that make them look bad. Sure they should've shown better control, but the people who trolled them are still dicks. Why not ask them to stop being dicks, at the same time?

I mean, go up to some big tough guy and insult them until they throw a punch at you and then complain that they should've been a stoic. Then report your findings here.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:03 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Certificate was for Joe, it's not transferable.
Well, I just took it from him and tore it apart. What are you gonna do about it?
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:07 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Come on, TM. While that's true in principle, you know full well that you can goad people into reacting in ways that make them look bad. Sure they should've shown better control, but the people who trolled them are still dicks. Why not ask them to stop being dicks, at the same time?
What are you saying? Are you one who has been goaded into looking bad? What about your position do you think looks bad, and does it only look bad or do you think it's actually bad?

And everyone should stop being dicks. Or vaginas. Or whatever unspecified equivalent is suitable for whatever unspecified sex or lack thereof.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:08 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, I just took it from him and tore it apart. What are you gonna do about it?
I'll stop getting into fights in a unisex bathroom, for starters.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:09 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What are you saying? Are you one who has been goaded into looking bad?
Joe. The one you were complaining about him complaining.

Quote:
And everyone should stop being dicks.
Then how about a PSA to Uke as well?
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:09 AM   #647
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Paging TragicMonkey what's your answer to this very on-topic question in a thread you are highly active in?
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Do you think think men should simply be able to claim to be trans to get into a formerly female-only shower room?
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:09 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, but you might be a transphobic bigot because you chose to forget about half of the people we are discussing in order to promote a losing argument.

Are you a transphobe, Joe?
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Remember a page and a half ago where I was a liar for claiming that people would call me a bigot? Good times.

Okay, seriously? No. This is just getting stupid here. I mean, I have problems with some of Joe's statements on the issue, but... no, painting him with the same brush as Rolfe and the rest of the rabid anti-trans crusaders is really misguided and wrong; and IMO deserves an apology.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Great, perhaps you would like to discuss the issue of the tampon fetishists then?
I guess you missed the part of my post that did address that? It's odd because you must have noticed it enough to cut it out when you quoted me. But anyway, here it is since you ask:

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I agree that that was a weird thing to worry about.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:16 AM   #650
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Alright, let's try another approach.

Practicality.

Despite how anyone personally feels about transgenderism "Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" was pretty well established as... like the rule.

Like can we all just agree that this a sort of semi-major shift in cultural thinking?

I just think things like moving either to genderless or completely private rooms as much as possible is just an easier, quicker and more viable solution.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:18 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Okay, seriously? No. This is just getting stupid here. I mean, I have problems with some of Joe's statements on the issue, but... no, painting him with the same brush as Rolfe and the rest of the rabid anti-trans crusaders is really misguided and wrong; and IMO deserves an apology.
He eased off and apologized, let him.

I'm feel very strongly that when someone (honestly) drops their end of the rope they should be allowed to.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:18 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
All that is true but does not contradict what I said.
Then I'm not clear what you mean by "the two sexes did not evolve separately", or how that statement applies to what Rolfe was saying. On the other hand, it's really not a big deal and is probably far enough off topic that I'm happy to drop it.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:20 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Then I'm not clear what you mean by "the two sexes did not evolve separately"
All I meant is that it's one species. The two sexes developed in parallel and over a much longer period of time. I don't think it's technically correct to say that the male body evolved, in that sense.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:20 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hey, what about me? I've been suggesting that as a solution for a couple of years now.

I'd be willing to consider a third, gender-neutral bathroom, but I suspect that would be more expensive to implement.

Not all that much, really. Having three segregated bathrooms is not going to be significantly more expensive than having two, since we're already doing segregation. Maybe retrofitting existing buildings might up the expense a bit, but in new construction not at all.

In fact, many places already have neutral restrooms; which are typically known as "family restrooms", and intended primarily for parents of young children. No reason that cannot be adapted into a general-purpose neutral-gender restroom. Given the very small percentage of transpeople out there, large space-intensive facilities aren't really needed as they are for the binary genders, so accommodation wouldn't be a huge hardship.

The ideal situation, of course, is for people to just get over their bloody fear of nudity already. There's no reason for this religiously-derived anachronism to still exist in a modern cosmopolitan culture, but...

In the meantime, a third restroom/locker room facility seems to me to be a reasonable intermediary step.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #655
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And again a third category isn't going to work when "I belong to one of the two established categories" is the whole point.

Transpeople don't want to be seen as "Their preferred Gender... with an asterisk."
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not all that much, really. Having three segregated bathrooms is not going to be significantly more expensive than having two, since we're already doing segregation.
Except that it's just not math. In a lot of places they'd have to redo the plumbing and tear down both existing rooms to build three new ones. They can't expand for a third one out of the building. A lot of places might not want to make the expenditure.

Quote:
In fact, many places already have neutral restrooms
Yeah well good for them, if they already have the space for it.

Quote:
The ideal situation, of course, is for people to just get over their bloody fear of nudity already.
That would nullify most of the discussion.

However, humans being what they are, there will always be issues with privacy. I don't think religion is the source of this. It pops up way too often in human societies.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Okay, seriously? No. This is just getting stupid here. I mean, I have problems with some of Joe's statements on the issue, but... no, painting him with the same brush as Rolfe and the rest of the rabid anti-trans crusaders is really misguided and wrong; and IMO deserves an apology.
Too late. I already apologized, so there.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Then I'm not clear what you mean by "the two sexes did not evolve separately", or how that statement applies to what Rolfe was saying. On the other hand, it's really not a big deal and is probably far enough off topic that I'm happy to drop it.
The two sexes did not diverge and evolved together, not independently. They are not genetically isolated from one another and are more alike than different biologically.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:26 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well how do you explain the wax parlor thing? Isolated incident, or symptom of a broken system?

That should be pretty bleeding obvious. If it wasn't an extremely rare, isolated incident it would either 1) not be newsworthy, or 2) be demonstrably part of a much larger pattern of incidents. Since it is newsworthy, and there has been no larger pattern of incidents reliably reported, it's very safe to say that it's an isolated incident involving one nutcase extremist. Every group has nutcase extremists on their fringe, we can see at least one in this very thread on the anti-trans side; so no reason not to believe that there aren't transpeople just as nutty as the anti-trans bigots.

Problem is, nutcase extremists in marginalized groups tend to be held up as exemplars by mainstream media, while nutcase extremists in mainstream groups tend to be treated as "isolated" fringe-dwellers by that same media, if they're acknowledged at all. All regardless of the actual prevalence in either group of the nutcase extremists.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:27 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again a third category isn't going to work when "I belong to one of the two established categories" is the whole point.

Transpeople don't want to be seen as "Their preferred Gender... with an asterisk."
That is true. And furthermore, trans-men and trans-women are subject to the same kind of foibles as the rest of us and likely wouldn't want to be lumped in with each other. That means four bathrooms, at a minimum.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The two sexes did not diverge and evolved together, not independently. They are not genetically isolated from one another and are more alike than different biologically.
Although as a married man I can attest to the fact that often it seems like we're different species...
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Paging TragicMonkey what's your answer to this very on-topic question in a thread you are highly active in?
If you were paying attention to my highly active posts you'd already have the answer. My thought is this: just as reputable doctors do not proceed with sex reassignment surgery until the patient has taken concrete steps to live as the intended sex for some time (dressing as, taking hormones, living as) so should a nonsurgical transition to another sex require concrete steps. "Declaring oneself to be" may or may not be legitimately true, only the individual in question can know that, but in expecting other people to recognize and accomodate a real change requires real action. Therefore if Jane tells me they're actually James inside, I'll accept that politely because why not. But if Jane takes no effort to become James outside of their head, and tries using the men's room while dressed as a woman and acting like a woman and strewing womanly attributes left and right, then complains to me that nobody recognizes them as James I'd have to gently point out that while the Taoists hold seeming can become being one still has to do a little work on the seeming bit first. It's not about "claiming" at all.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:29 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
He eased off and apologized, let him.

I'm feel very strongly that when someone (honestly) drops their end of the rope they should be allowed to.

Yeah, I hadn't gotten that far yet. Teach me to read through the thread first.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Too late. I already apologized, so there.

I see that, but I think this still needs to be said: Are you a transperson yourself? No? Then -- and I say this with all kindness and respect -- learn when to STFU. Being an ally and defender is great; but there are limits, and frothing fanticism in supposed support is just as bad as frothing opposition. Definitely support and defend marginalized people, but don't pretend to speak for them, they are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves.
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Last edited by luchog; 30th July 2019 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:30 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Let me break it down.



An argument is being made that trans women should not be allowed to use women's facilities. One of the reasons, the one you're addressing now, is because of the risk that they may harass the cis women using that space.
I don't think that's actually been an argument, even if it's now being addressed.

I think the actual argument is that if we allow transwomen to use women's facilities on their say so alone, this opens the door to allowing other men to abuse the rule, and gain access to women's facilities for their own perverse and exploitive purposes.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:31 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If it wasn't an extremely rare, isolated incident it would either 1) not be newsworthy, or 2) be demonstrably part of a much larger pattern of incidents.
Well, leaving aside that some very common things are often newsworthy, it's hard to judge if there's a larger pattern of incidents at this early stage. The question is whether women (on this specific topic) should be expected to have to deal with this sort of disruption simply because these new laws and views will make it harder to sort out cases like the one with the wax thing.

....sheesh, now I don't know if the above was clear at all.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:32 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think that's actually been an argument, even if it's now being addressed.

I think the actual argument is that if we allow transwomen to use women's facilities on their say so alone, this opens the door to allowing other men to abuse the rule, and gain access to women's facilities for their own perverse and exploitive purposes.
Highlighted the important bit.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:32 AM   #667
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Locker rooms and communial showers are going to be more complicated, but just for general use bathrooms I think we're over complicated it.

In most public restrooms the individual stalls are already... what like 80% private? Just fully enclose them. The central area with sinks and baby changing tables and whatnot has zero reason to be gendered anyway unless your such a prude the opposite sex washing their hands or getting piece of spinach out of their teeth causes you to clutch pearls. And then basically all the stalls can just be mini-unisex bathrooms.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:34 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then we agree that the flood of child-murdering Mexicans pouring across our borders must cease. You heard it here, folks, Francesca R is adding her support to the glorious Wall campaign, having recognized the dreadful depredations of the scourge plaguing the nation.
That doesn't follow.

Did Francesca make some claim about another poster that didn't follow from his answer to her question? If so it'd be cool if you quoted it because I missed it.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:36 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not about "claiming" at all.
I think that's no. OK I agree with that (too, I think).
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:37 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That doesn't follow.
Indeed It doesn't
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:38 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Although as a married man I can attest to the fact that often it seems like we're different species...

That is something I've never understood. I've never had that experience, and have never seen it to be true. What I do see is a whole lot of people accepting and perpetuating cultural stereotypes without challenging or even examining them.

Not just with men and women, but with various ethnic groups, sexual minorities, and so on. There's just that weird need to create in-group/out-group dynamics with an alien, irreconcilable "other". The differences between individual persons are so vast that they completely overshadow the differences between arbitrary aggregates; yet we continue to focus on the aggregates rather than the individuals, and demand conformity to the aggregate stereotypes.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:39 AM   #672
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I think that's no. OK I agree with that (too, I think).
I don't think it can be boiled down to a "yes" or "no". The question was oversimplified to the point of uselessness in regards to the complex questions underlying this controversy.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:42 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That should be pretty bleeding obvious. If it wasn't an extremely rare, isolated incident it would either 1) not be newsworthy, or 2) be demonstrably part of a much larger pattern of incidents. Since it is newsworthy, and there has been no larger pattern of incidents reliably reported, it's very safe to say that it's an isolated incident involving one nutcase extremist. Every group has nutcase extremists on their fringe, we can see at least one in this very thread on the anti-trans side; so no reason not to believe that there aren't transpeople just as nutty as the anti-trans bigots.

Problem is, nutcase extremists in marginalized groups tend to be held up as exemplars by mainstream media, while nutcase extremists in mainstream groups tend to be treated as "isolated" fringe-dwellers by that same media, if they're acknowledged at all. All regardless of the actual prevalence in either group of the nutcase extremists.
To be fair, transwomen have put a lot of effort into getting rid of their nutcases.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:43 AM   #674
Francesca R
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't think it can be boiled down to a "yes" or "no". The question was oversimplified to the point of uselessness in regards to the complex questions underlying this controversy.
Well there are some who think yes and some no. And many qualifiers. I think there is information in getting the yes or no. Thank you.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:44 AM   #675
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The topic is complicated, not every individual part of it.

We can't tell the difference between someone "identifying" as the other gender and someone "claiming" to be the other gender and we can't let it become an after the fact game of "Well if they do something wrong they were claiming, if they don't they were honestly identifying."

Again "No True Scotsman" can't really work in a topic that is 100% completely dependent on internally applied self identities.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:47 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again a third category isn't going to work when "I belong to one of the two established categories" is the whole point.

Transpeople don't want to be seen as "Their preferred Gender... with an asterisk."
While this is generally true in an ideal kind of way, I think itís likely that a simple majority is OK with the baby steps version of just having somewhere to pee without drawing attention.

Iím sure in the southern dark ages some people would find it too galling to use the coloreds only drinking fountain and others, while not exactly being happy about it, thought it was a lot better than no water at all. What would really be out of the ballpark would be moderates expecting people to be grateful that someone made them special facilities to use since they werenít allowed to use the ones for everyone else.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:49 AM   #677
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
While this is generally true in an ideal kind of way, I think itís likely that a simple majority is OK with the baby steps version of just having somewhere to pee without drawing attention.

Iím sure in the southern dark ages some people would find it too galling to use the coloreds only drinking fountain and others, while not exactly being happy about it, thought it was a lot better than no water at all. What would really be out of the ballpark would be moderates expecting people to be grateful that someone made them special facilities to use since they werenít allowed to use the ones for everyone else.
All true, but like I said just aiming for gender neutral is probably a quicker route to this then just making the exceptions list more complicated.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:49 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again a third category isn't going to work when "I belong to one of the two established categories" is the whole point.

Transpeople don't want to be seen as "Their preferred Gender... with an asterisk."
One danger of these discussions is that the position taken by the extremes are often assumed to be the position of a group as a whole.

On these threads I read that "Trans-people will only settle for self-identification" or "trans people consider a third bathroom/changing area unacceptable and degrading" or even the "trans-women say all of their parts, including their penis, are female parts." And yes, there are vocal trans-activists who say that. But I read or watch a lot of videos from trans-people who disagree with these statements.

What I'm saying is that I'm not sure that the majority of trans people object to a third bathroom/changing area that is gender neutral. We just hear about cases where someone does because "trans-girl changes in privacy of faculty bathroom" does not make headlines. There are probably a lot of trans people in high schools around the country that quietly use gender neutral facilities because they a) understand the feelings of others and b) don't really want attention focused on them. Is it their ideal? probably not. But until cultural attitudes towards nudity change that's how it is.
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:54 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm simply talking about allowing transpeople to use the dressing room of the gender they are or have transitioned to.
That's the point we're debating, yes.

The questions are:

Should it be allowed?

And:

How should it be regulated?

The first can be seen as a question of basic human decency. It's also a question of psychological health, but let's set that aside for now. As a question of human decency, I'm pretty sure we all (including Rolfe!) are prepared to answer "yes", at least in principle.

The second is a question of practical implementation. How you answer this question depends on a few things:
- Do you see a value in safe spaces for women?
- Do you have any concerns about non-transwomen gaining access to women's spaces under this rule, for exploitative purposes?
- For people who do have such concerns, do you see value in addressing those concerns through regulation?

There's probably a few more, but that's enough to start with.

Would you mind taking a short break from Rolfe-bashing, and tell us where you stand on each of the questions above?
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Old 30th July 2019, 07:56 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. And that's not what's happening, nor what's being requested by trans-activists. It's the massive straw man erected by transphobes.
We have at least one example of a trans-activist doing exactly this, fully supported by the law.
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