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Old 30th July 2019, 07:58 AM   #681
theprestige
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NVM

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Old 30th July 2019, 08:01 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The topic is complicated, not every individual part of it.

We can't tell the difference between someone "identifying" as the other gender and someone "claiming" to be the other gender and we can't let it become an after the fact game of "Well if they do something wrong they were claiming, if they don't they were honestly identifying."

Again "No True Scotsman" can't really work in a topic that is 100% completely dependent on internally applied self identities.
The word "claim" has a literal meaning we frequently use on this board, and it also has a second connotation of dishonesty or suspicion. I suggest we simplify things and just say "lying" when referring to hypothetical persons (the pervert squad) who may falsely state they are transgender in order to accomplish their perverted objectives.

Hence we have A-ko and B-ko. A-ko is an honest, true transgender woman. B-ko is lying, a man dishonestly pretending to be a transgender woman so he can get access to the ladies room for nefarious purposes.

Much of the furor seems to be over the question "how can we tell the A-kos and B-kos apart?" If we have only their word to go on that's difficult because either we take action to prevent B-ko knowing it will upset A-ko, or we act to enable A-ko despite knowing B-ko can then abuse it.

Some of us believe A-kos outnumber B-kos or vice versa, and advocate policy based on the total numbers only. Others consider the impact rather than the total numbers, holding that upsetting X number of A-kos is worth it of we thereby foil Y number of B-kos. Or vice versa.

The values we assign to the totals and impacts ate necessarily arbitrary because we a) don't have sufficient data and b) even if we did, not all aspects can be quantified anyway.

Which is why I don't think any of those approaches can work. Instead if we require the A-kos to take concrete steps before accommodating them, that would distinguish them from any but the most absolutely determined B-kos, and thus make A-ko favorable policy easier and more practical than anti B-ko policy.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Locker rooms and communial showers are going to be more complicated, but just for general use bathrooms I think we're over complicated it.

In most public restrooms the individual stalls are already... what like 80% private? Just fully enclose them. The central area with sinks and baby changing tables and whatnot has zero reason to be gendered anyway unless your such a prude the opposite sex washing their hands or getting piece of spinach out of their teeth causes you to clutch pearls. And then basically all the stalls can just be mini-unisex bathrooms.
Yeah, exactly. That's why it's easier to just convert to unisex rather than make a third kind of restroom.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:03 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ok. How many of those attacks were by men "self identifying" as a woman?
Probably none, as self identifying as a woman doesn't currently get such men into women's spaces.

The question is whether we should change the laws and norms that govern access to women's spaces, and whether such a change would make things easier for such men.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:04 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That is something I've never understood. I've never had that experience, and have never seen it to be true. What I do see is a whole lot of people accepting and perpetuating cultural stereotypes without challenging or even examining them.
It's an exaggeration, for sure, but think about it: why would humans, men and women, make the observation that the two sexes are from completely different planets, and have been making this observation for thousands of years, if there wasn't a kernel of truth to the idea that we're really different?
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:04 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The word "claim" has a literal meaning we frequently use on this board, and it also has a second connotation of dishonesty or suspicion. I suggest we simplify things and just say "lying" when referring to hypothetical persons (the pervert squad) who may falsely state they are transgender in order to accomplish their perverted objectives.
I was only using the term that was being generally used, I was not attempting subversion or confusion.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:07 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I was only using the term that was being generally used, I was not attempting subversion or confusion.
It's a confusing word in this context because however each of us writes it may not be how each reader reads it. Especially considering the delicate nature of the topic and the strong emotions involved I think we'd be best served to eliminate as much unintentional confusion as possible.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:09 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that the parallel doesn't work: the above was NOT included or implied in your original question. You tried to make a "have you stopped beating your wife yet" analogue but whiffed completely.

Francesca's question to Uke wasn't of that form anyway, so why bother?
"Moreover, I consider that arguments from analogy must always fail."

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Old 30th July 2019, 08:09 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's a confusing word in this context because however each of us writes it may not be how each reader reads it.
Isn't that true of every word?
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:12 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Locker rooms and communial showers are going to be more complicated, but just for general use bathrooms I think we're over complicated it.

In most public restrooms the individual stalls are already... what like 80% private? Just fully enclose them. The central area with sinks and baby changing tables and whatnot has zero reason to be gendered anyway unless your such a prude the opposite sex washing their hands or getting piece of spinach out of their teeth causes you to clutch pearls. And then basically all the stalls can just be mini-unisex bathrooms.
While I agree with you in principal, Rolfe and others might point out that women use the restrooms not just as a toilet but as a social space free from men. I don't think men see our restrooms the same way.

She also mentions additional physical issues women have to deal with, although this whole thing got hijacked by the whole tampon fetish thing. There is more everyday relevancy to her mentions of menstrual cups and washing underwear in the sink. I'm not sure how frequent of an issue these things are but its something to overcome that involves more than increasing stall privacy. (On the other hand, this also seems like a time when biological women might prefer the private family restroom type environment.)

How are these things handled in places that have gender neutral communal bathrooms?

What I'm saying is that even this will take some time and some cultural attitude changes, not about nudity but about female bodily functions and such. Changes that, in my opinion, should but won't just happen tomorrow.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:13 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's a confusing word in this context because however each of us writes it may not be how each reader reads it. Especially considering the delicate nature of the topic and the strong emotions involved I think we'd be best served to eliminate as much unintentional confusion as possible.
I'll have to stew on it for a minute so this might change, but I don't know if we can really make a distinction along lines of... honest intent.

I don't know if "I'm presenting as this gender in my day to day life because I honestly self identify as a gender" and "I'm presenting as this gender for other reasons; be they good, random, or bad" is really a line we can draw.

"Everybody's on my team... except the people who do bad" again strikes me as way too No True Scotsman for my taste.

Like I can say me and an atheist who's an atheist just because he's butthurt that mommy drug him to church every Sunday when his favorite cartoon was on are different, but I can't throw him out of the "atheist" label without committing a No True Scotsman.

Again, this is something I'm still thinking on before the hammer and nails come out.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:16 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
While I agree with you in principal, Rolfe and others might point out that women use the restrooms not just as a toilet but as a social space free from men. I don't think men see our restrooms the same way.

She also mentions additional physical issues women have to deal with, although this whole thing got hijacked by the whole tampon fetish thing. There is more everyday relevancy to her mentions of menstrual cups and washing underwear in the sink. I'm not sure how frequent of an issue these things are but its something to overcome that involves more than increasing stall privacy. (On the other hand, this also seems like a time when biological women might prefer the private family restroom type environment.)

How are these things handled in places that have gender neutral communal bathrooms?

What I'm saying is that even this will take some time and some cultural attitude changes, not about nudity but about female bodily functions and such. Changes that, in my opinion, should but won't just happen tomorrow.
I don't have a solution that's gonna make everyone happy, so I just have to make best guess judgement calls on who's never going to be happy and not bother and right now Rolfe is the leading candidate for that.

But that's the problem with a lot of Progressive causes and arguments, you get to the "Well you can't please everyone" stage really quick but never get to the "So who do we not please?" stage.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:22 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Isn't that true of every word?
A Deconstructionist approach to the topic would be that sex is something different to everyone therefore we either have a separate bathroom for each and every individual or just one big bathroom for all 7 billion at once.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:24 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't think it can be boiled down to a "yes" or "no". The question was oversimplified to the point of uselessness in regards to the complex questions underlying this controversy.
Okay, sure.

"Should men be granted access to women's spaces by claiming to identify as women?"

What's your complex answer to this complex question?
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, sure.

"Should men be granted access to women's spaces by claiming to identify as women?"

What's your complex answer to this complex question?
I answered it in post 669.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, exactly. That's why it's easier to just convert to unisex rather than make a third kind of restroom.
Easier in some ways.

However, it doesn't really do much for societies that value safe spaces for women over making things easier for landlords.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I answered it in post 669.
Post 669 reads like you'd allow it, and then chide anyone whose gender expression doesn't match your idea of how that gender should be expressed, or your idea of what constitutes a meaningful effort towards transition.

It seems like the worst of both worlds: Men get in on their say-so, and you're directly challenging transsexuals for not conforming to your gender stereotypes. It neither respects transsexuals in their transition, nor does anything to prevent other men from exploiting the rule.

I'm not going to say that telling James he's not acting manly enough for the men's room is the most bigoted thing posted in the thread so far, but it does seem more openly transphobic than anything Rolfe has posted yet.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I answered it in post 669.
That post seems like a pretty straightforward answer of "no" to the question.

That there are other questions that then need to be addressed, such as "If something other than a claim is required, what is?" and your post at least starts to address some of those questions, which is meaningful.

But for the sake of clarity of the conversation its worthwhile to answer Franscesca's question in order to then move on to those sorts of questions that address "If no, then what?"

Because if the answer to her question is yes, then the rest of those questions don't need to be addressed.

ETA So theprestige and I have opposite interpretations of TM's post. Which seems to me to imply that starting out by answering a straightforward question with a straightforward answer and then moving on to the subtleties that are implied by that is probably a good idea.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:40 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Post 669 reads like you'd allow it, and then chide anyone whose gender expression doesn't match your idea of how that gender should be expressed, or your idea of what constitutes a meaningful effort towards transition.

It seems like the worst of both worlds: Men get in on their say-so, and you're directly challenging transsexuals for not conforming to your gender stereotypes. It neither respects transsexuals in their transition, nor does anything to prevent other men from exploiting the rule.

I'm not going to say that telling James he's not acting manly enough for the men's room is the most bigoted thing posted in the thread so far, but it does seem more openly transphobic than anything Rolfe has posted yet.
Okay, that's your opinion of my opinion. What's your opinion on the topic? What's your answer to Francesca R's question?
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:56 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All true, but like I said just aiming for gender neutral is probably a quicker route to this then just making the exceptions list more complicated.
Ah, yeah fair enough, that would be the more direct route.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:08 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Which seems to me to imply that starting out by answering a straightforward question with a straightforward answer and then moving on to the subtleties that are implied by that is probably a good idea.
I am guessing some members think / thought that answering yes or no would trap them into something or other.

And/or that the very thought of having a sliver of agreement (if the answer was no) with other members that they are simultaneously calling bigots/misandrists/transphobes/enablers-of-the-foregoing . . . . is too abhorrent to stomach for some reason.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:20 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
For the ******* last time,...

Optimist
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:21 AM   #703
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One of the things I have heard people claim, which I feel must be a canard, is that all kinds of people are allowed access to gendered spaces by literally just rocking up and saying so in a contrarian kind of way. Like some high schooler who has always presented male decides they want into the ladies’ so says “I’m a woman today” and that’s all there is to it. This seems to be what TM is saying should ‘not be enough’ and I agree.

There also aren’t actually any hard and fast rules as to what gender really is. I don’t think it’s reasonable to create a list of things you have to do or wear to be considered female, so how can you possibly say what ‘is enough’ to be a member of a gender? This last bit seems to be what Joe is saying and I agree with that much too.

My first best guess is to find a way to treat it like a name; you can change it but it takes a dedicated process. You wouldn’t up and change it in the middle of the day or change it so often that nobody can keep up.

The Black Mirror version would just be a “you are freaking me out” card that everybody carries, and if you get 25 unique punches you’re only allowed in single occupancy restrooms.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:24 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
There also aren’t actually any hard and fast rules as to what gender really is. I don’t think it’s reasonable to create a list of things you have to do or wear to be considered female, so how can you possibly say what ‘is enough’ to be a member of a gender? This last bit seems to be what Joe is saying and I agree with that much too.
That is my general viewpoint that informs my opinions on this topic.

In my ideal world "transgenderism" wouldn't be a thing, not because anyone would be forced to deny their true identity or take on gender roles they don't want, but because there wouldn't be gender roles.

"I'm a man who identifies as a woman" in order to be meaningful at all requires us to have rules placed on women beyond pure biology, and I do not agree with that.

That's always been my issue with transgenderism, it requires the propping up of gender roles to have something to subvert.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:27 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okay, that's your opinion of my opinion. What's your opinion on the topic? What's your answer to Francesca R's question?
I already answered that. Go find it.
I already answered that in post XXX.
If you can't figure it out by now, I'm not going to tell you.
It's rilly rilly complicated. Like, rilly rilly complicated.
What are you, some kind of bigot?

My answer is... No.

But.

I don't see any solution that's workable for everyone.

Letting men enter women's spaces (I think locker rooms, not bathrooms) on their own recognizance has a couple obvious risks. Obvious to me, anyway.

One is the risk that men who are not transsexual will abuse such a rule to harass women. I don't think this is really a question of rape on the locker room floor (which I consider to be a dishonest straw man). I think it's more a question of ogling, insulting speech, and other forms of passive-aggressive sexual harassment that women have always had to deal with in co-ed spaces. While giving women a safe space without men doesn't solve problems with other women, it does take a major source of social conflict and misogyny out of the equation. I think that has value and I'm very reluctant to give men the option of entering those spaces, both in terms of the law and in terms of the social norms.

Another is the risk that women's trust in safe spaces, and in society in general, will be undermined by the perception of increased risk of violation of their space, even if the actual risk is quite small. I don't think that the risk of men entering women's spaces for the purposes of harassing women would be small, but even if it is, that perception of increased risk will tend to fray the social fabric, which is not desirable.

On the other hand, requiring that transsexuals obtain some sort of certificate from their physician, attesting either their mental state or their medical progress towards transition, seems obnoxious and humiliating to everyone involved. It's hardly a humane recognition of the rights of transgenders.

Building more bathrooms in different categories also seems obnoxious. It's hard on landlords. It also reinforces the idea that transwomen aren't women, which seems like it would be counter-productive. The whole point is for transwomen to be recognized and accepted as women. Giving them their own not-actually-a-woman bathroom doesn't help with that. It may end up being the least-bad solution, but I wonder if transactivists will accept it.

So.

Back to your opinion. In Post 669, you allude to some kind of transitioning Certificate, but you don't go as far as saying outright that it should be a requirement* for entering a women's space. Do you think it should be a requirement?

If so, how would you implement it? Probably the least obnoxious way would be to simply trust everyone to do the right thing, and if a dispute arises, the authorities can ask to see certificates or other documentation. Is that close to what you had in mind?

One problem I see with this is in how disputes may arise. Say Alice believes that Beth is really Bob (sorry Bob!), in the women's locker room on false pretenses. Is she allowed to ask Beth to produce her Certificate? Or would that be harassment? If that's harassment, then what's the value of the Certificate as a gatekeeping mechanism? Does Alice have to summon the authorities, accuse Beth of harassment, and then the authorities get to ask for the Certificate?

What's your take on these questions?

---
*For transwomen, obviously. Ciswomen are already likely to have state-issued ID attesting to their gender.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's an exaggeration, for sure, but think about it: why would humans, men and women, make the observation that the two sexes are from completely different planets, and have been making this observation for thousands of years, if there wasn't a kernel of truth to the idea that we're really different?

Well for starters, I don't see it as having been thousands of years, and the degree and nature of differentiation varies widely depending on culture and point of history; and particularly with regard to religious influence.

Quote:
if there wasn't a kernel of truth to the idea that we're really different?

And there you go twisting my words yet again. I didn't say there were not any differences, just that the differences between aggregates are far less significant than differences between individuals.

As for the reasons, well, typically the reason to differentiate so dramatically between biological men and biological women is for reproductive control. Men controlling how and when women are allowed to reproduce has been a historical norm since we evolved beyond the simplest hunter-gatherer societies. It's typically wrapped up in succession of power and wealth, much of which had religious justification built in.

As cultures evolved, differences between men and women were increasingly exaggerated in some places and times, as part of the tendency for one group to "other" another group and gain an additional measure of control over them. The most obvious examples is the classical Athenians, who were fairly extreme in this regard (many of the classical Greeks did not consider women to be fully human in the same way that men were); or the more fundamentalist sects of Islam, who relegate women to the same status as children socially and intellectually.

By contrast, you have some of the Celtic and Germanic societies which held comparatively little difference between men and women aside from biological necessities like reproduction.

The "men are from mars women are from venus" nonsense is just a reiteration of culturally-enforced stereotypes and gender roles with a dash of biological necessities thrown in to justify them. One can see a drastic change in even mainstream culture's view of women in just the last century or two. It wasn't that long ago (eg. Victorian period) that the culture stereotype of women even in western Anglosphere culture was drastically different than today, with women being considered incapable of rationality and intellectual pursuits to the same degree as men. Not "mars/venus" but "child/adult". Many entities in mainstream culture have a vested interest in maintaining that exaggerated "other" divide between the sexes/genders; either because it provides them control over the "other", or because they can exploit the divide for profit.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:36 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A Deconstructionist approach to the topic would be that sex is something different to everyone therefore we either have a separate bathroom for each and every individual or just one big bathroom for all 7 billion at once.
Works for me. One locked toilet and sink for every person. Some places are already like this.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okay, that's your opinion of my opinion.
Is that your opinion on his opinion of your opinion?
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:37 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
There also aren’t actually any hard and fast rules as to what gender really is.
I don't know. Up until a short while ago, there was. There could still be, in fact, without discriminating against trans folk.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:37 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Which is why I don't think any of those approaches can work. Instead if we require the A-kos to take concrete steps before accommodating them, that would distinguish them from any but the most absolutely determined B-kos, and thus make A-ko favorable policy easier and more practical than anti B-ko policy.
Currently the law in the UK is that you need a doctor's note and show that you've lived for 2 years in your preferred gender so as to get a Gender Recognition Certificate, which allows you to legally be considered a woman. Sounds like you agree with Rolfe then that the proposed change to the law removing any such requirements should not be enacted and that the law is fine as it is. I wonder why you're not getting shouted down by the activist brigade as a transphobe for thinking that there should be some requirements other than mere say-so, a say-so which can change at any moment btw, for example "from the moment I set foot in the showers up to the moment I leave again I identify as a woman, other than that I identify as a man."
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:38 AM   #710
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Unless people are going to be allowed to request a transpersons papers on site, which obviously nobody wants for really, really good reasons, this is still all academic.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:43 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I already answered that. Go find it.
I already answered that in post XXX.
If you can't figure it out by now, I'm not going to tell you.
It's rilly rilly complicated. Like, rilly rilly complicated.
What are you, some kind of bigot?

My answer is... No.

But.

I don't see any solution that's workable for everyone.

Letting men enter women's spaces (I think locker rooms, not bathrooms) on their own recognizance has a couple obvious risks. Obvious to me, anyway.

One is the risk that men who are not transsexual will abuse such a rule to harass women. I don't think this is really a question of rape on the locker room floor (which I consider to be a dishonest straw man). I think it's more a question of ogling, insulting speech, and other forms of passive-aggressive sexual harassment that women have always had to deal with in co-ed spaces. While giving women a safe space without men doesn't solve problems with other women, it does take a major source of social conflict and misogyny out of the equation. I think that has value and I'm very reluctant to give men the option of entering those spaces, both in terms of the law and in terms of the social norms.

Another is the risk that women's trust in safe spaces, and in society in general, will be undermined by the perception of increased risk of violation of their space, even if the actual risk is quite small. I don't think that the risk of men entering women's spaces for the purposes of harassing women would be small, but even if it is, that perception of increased risk will tend to fray the social fabric, which is not desirable.

On the other hand, requiring that transsexuals obtain some sort of certificate from their physician, attesting either their mental state or their medical progress towards transition, seems obnoxious and humiliating to everyone involved. It's hardly a humane recognition of the rights of transgenders.

Building more bathrooms in different categories also seems obnoxious. It's hard on landlords. It also reinforces the idea that transwomen aren't women, which seems like it would be counter-productive. The whole point is for transwomen to be recognized and accepted as women. Giving them their own not-actually-a-woman bathroom doesn't help with that. It may end up being the least-bad solution, but I wonder if transactivists will accept it.

So.

Back to your opinion. In Post 669, you allude to some kind of transitioning Certificate, but you don't go as far as saying outright that it should be a requirement* for entering a women's space. Do you think it should be a requirement?

If so, how would you implement it? Probably the least obnoxious way would be to simply trust everyone to do the right thing, and if a dispute arises, the authorities can ask to see certificates or other documentation. Is that close to what you had in mind?

One problem I see with this is in how disputes may arise. Say Alice believes that Beth is really Bob (sorry Bob!), in the women's locker room on false pretenses. Is she allowed to ask Beth to produce her Certificate? Or would that be harassment? If that's harassment, then what's the value of the Certificate as a gatekeeping mechanism? Does Alice have to summon the authorities, accuse Beth of harassment, and then the authorities get to ask for the Certificate?

What's your take on these questions?

---
*For transwomen, obviously. Ciswomen are already likely to have state-issued ID attesting to their gender.
The "Certificate" wasn't anything to do with that post, it was a semi-jocular aside to another poster. In a completely different post. I did not suggest documentation as a solution for authenticating transgender individuals; I didn't suggest any means of authentication. I can't think of a feasible method to begin with, and also I don't think anybody should have the burden of proving their rights to be there, to others. I do not have a plan for implementing a solution; I didn't claim I had, and certainly I am not required to have such a plan before I'm permitted to hold an opinion.

As for your amusing strikethroughs it's rather childish of you to respond so to retaliate against my pointing you to a long post you missed. Was I supposed to retype it again for your convenience? You seem to have trouble distinguishing my posts from other people's, and particular posts of mine from other posts of mine. Is it because you skim in haste looking for things to confront me upon out of a longstanding personal animosity? I'm not certain of that, otherwise I'd not reply at all. But I'm far from convinced your objections to everything I say are motivated solely by the content and not the author.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:43 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well for starters, I don't see it as having been thousands of years
That's not up for debate. A lot of breath and ink have been spent on the topic. It's thousands of years.

Quote:
and the degree and nature of differentiation varies widely depending on culture and point of history
Let's not confuse social expectations with base differences. There are major differences that hold across cultures.

Quote:
And there you go twisting my words yet again.
I'm asking you a direct question. How is that twisting your words?

Quote:
I didn't say there were not any differences, just that the differences between aggregates are far less significant than differences between individuals.
I know that, but that changes absolutely nothing of what I said.

Quote:
As for the reasons, well, typically the reason to differentiate so dramatically between biological men and biological women is for reproductive control.
That's what I would consider a misandrist view, actually. And a simplistic one, to boot. There are a lot of factors at play in how and why women and men were treated differently. I see no reason to hold that mustache-twirling villainous men who wanted to keep women down is a more important factor than, say, the momentum of millions of years of sexual dimorphism applied to the relatively recent occurance of civilisation being hard to shake off, and having impacts across the board.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:44 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Currently the law in the UK is that you need a doctor's note and show that you've lived for 2 years in your preferred gender so as to get a Gender Recognition Certificate, which allows you to legally be considered a woman. Sounds like you agree with Rolfe then that the proposed change to the law removing any such requirements should not be enacted and that the law is fine as it is. I wonder why you're not getting shouted down by the activist brigade as a transphobe for thinking that there should be some requirements other than mere say-so, a say-so which can change at any moment btw, for example "from the moment I set foot in the showers up to the moment I leave again I identify as a woman, other than that I identify as a man."
Otherwise known as gender fluid and you're a bigot if you disagree.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:47 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Currently the law in the UK is that you need a doctor's note and show that you've lived for 2 years in your preferred gender so as to get a Gender Recognition Certificate, which allows you to legally be considered a woman. Sounds like you agree with Rolfe then that the proposed change to the law removing any such requirements should not be enacted and that the law is fine as it is. I wonder why you're not getting shouted down by the activist brigade as a transphobe for thinking that there should be some requirements other than mere say-so, a say-so which can change at any moment btw, for example "from the moment I set foot in the showers up to the moment I leave again I identify as a woman, other than that I identify as a man."
I wasn't aware of such certificates or the UK law, actually. It sounds like a tentatively reasonable idea, but like mentioned above it seems academic if you also object to the notion of people being compelled to show "papers" to prove their rights. Which, being American, is a part of my ethos. "Papers, please" simply doesn't sit right.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:47 AM   #715
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I think that the most basic requirement of just having anything you could check to confirm it’s a person’s full time gender identity would eliminate the vast vast majority of abuses and make any actual abuses more obvious and easier to deal with. Even if it was just a self-chosen type of thing, the important part would be that it’s consistent. You should be able to change it if your understanding of yourself changes, but not on a whim. A limit to how often or how many during certain age ranges, or you have to write a good essay, I don’t know.

It’s been said before that a boy who only wants access for nefarious purposes wouldn’t find the price of access worth it if that price was all his peers and teachers calling him a girl, and losing access to all male gendered spaces, teams etc. for the foreseeable future. He’d be applying to jobs and schools and for loans as a woman, etc. The only perk would be the car insurance prices.

You’d have to be a really dedicated voyeur to consider that price reasonable if you care at all about your actual gender, and at that point you’re going to be much more likely to be creepy enough to ping more of the rules about ‘don’t be creepy in public’ that really ought to be replacing ‘don’t be the wrong gender in this space’ that we’ll hopefully have.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:48 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's what I would consider a misandrist view, actually. And a simplistic one, to boot. There are a lot of factors at play in how and why women and men were treated differently. I see no reason to hold that mustache-twirling villainous men who wanted to keep women down is a more important factor than, say, the momentum of millions of years of sexual dimorphism applied to the relatively recent occurance of civilisation being hard to shake off, and having impacts across the board.
And that's what's known as an ignorant view, as it ignores the evidence refuting it (sex-egalitarianism among early humans, as well as the appearance of patriarchy alongside the appearance of private property, necessitating reproductive control so as to enable inheritance of private property from man to son).
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:51 AM   #717
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You know what... I don't give a **** what we "used" to do.

We are allowed to just ask ourselves what should we do now, in our society, in our time.

We have to understand historical and cultural contexts, not be slaves to them.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:53 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I think that the most basic requirement of just having anything you could check to confirm it’s a person’s full time gender identity would eliminate the vast vast majority of abuses and make any actual abuses more obvious and easier to deal with. Even if it was just a self-chosen type of thing, the important part would be that it’s consistent. You should be able to change it if your understanding of yourself changes, but not on a whim. A limit to how often or how many during certain age ranges, or you have to write a good essay, I don’t know.

It’s been said before that a boy who only wants access for nefarious purposes wouldn’t find the price of access worth it if that price was all his peers and teachers calling him a girl, and losing access to all male gendered spaces, teams etc. for the foreseeable future. He’d be applying to jobs and schools and for loans as a woman, etc. The only perk would be the car insurance prices.

You’d have to be a really dedicated voyeur to consider that price reasonable if you care at all about your actual gender, and at that point you’re going to be much more likely to be creepy enough to ping more of the rules about ‘don’t be creepy in public’ that really ought to be replacing ‘don’t be the wrong gender in this space’ that we’ll hopefully have.
While this wouldn't be a perfect solution, how about building from the above to apply extra penalties to crimes committed while falsely claiming to be the other sex? It wouldn't stop B-ko from stealing used tampons to begin with, but if he's caught the extra prison time might serve as a deterrent to others. While legitimate transwomen would be able to use the ladies room and, by not misbehaving, suffer no penalty for doing so.
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:54 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And that's what's known as an ignorant view
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Old 30th July 2019, 09:56 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And that's what's known as an ignorant view, as it ignores the evidence refuting it (sex-egalitarianism among early humans, as well as the appearance of patriarchy alongside the appearance of private property, necessitating reproductive control so as to enable inheritance of private property from man to son).
None of that refutes what I said.

Besides, the bit about private property sounds like a post-hoc rationalisation rather than anything the people of the time really thought through.
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