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Old 30th August 2019, 07:02 AM   #81
isissxn
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That they're wrong is irrelevant: their beliefs affects policy. Mocking the belief may be fun for us but it won't change their minds. We have to find something that breaks their beliefs that it's a sin. And that there's a VERY clear line in the bible that says homosexuals are an abomination in the eyes of god makes it that much harder.
It's been quite awhile since I've sat down and read the Bible, but I have read the whole thing in the past (and may I say, what a slog, overall). My question is - does the Bible actually comment on, or really even mention, lesbians? I know that a man who lieth with another man is an abomination, but did the goat herders have anything to say about lesbians? I don't recall a specification.

Perhaps they couldn't conceive of such a thing as sex without a dong present.
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Old 30th August 2019, 07:12 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Perhaps they couldn't conceive of such a thing as sex without a dong present.
They were quite focused on the dong.
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Old 30th August 2019, 07:46 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I know that a man who lieth with another man (as if he were a woman) is an abomination,

I take this to mean God doesn't like tops but bottoms are okay?
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Old 30th August 2019, 08:08 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Well, there is no female gene, but there is a male gene.
Citation? Or am I missing a joke?

SRY is one of many genes required for male attributes and it is occasionally contradicted if that is what you are referring to.
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Old 30th August 2019, 08:14 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Well, there is no female gene, but there is a male gene.
The default is the female gene which gets modified when the male gene is introduced. It's why males still have nipples.
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Old 30th August 2019, 08:42 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I take this to mean God doesn't like tops but bottoms are okay?
It depends what that "he" refers to - is it the man, or the other man?
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Old 30th August 2019, 08:51 AM   #87
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Abomination for sure. But so is wearing dark socks with sandals. And murder.

Perhaps a biblical scholar could look at the original text, in whatever language, and see where Homo is on the abomination scale?
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Old 30th August 2019, 09:13 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I like strawberries and dislike pears. I prefer hot weather to cold. I like less clutter in my house than most. I like other dudes sexually.

So now science just has to find the gene for liking strawberries.

Quote:
The title refers to a comment made by Diego that immediately proves to David that Diego is gay when at Havana's Coppelia (ice cream parlor) he chooses strawberry ice cream even though chocolate (vastly more popular) is available.
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Old 30th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Oh god no. Jesus Christ the cringe on here is so bad. Epigenetic changes don't just occur in tumor suppressor genes. This place is so scientifically illiterate, and proud of it.
I see you're strawmanning as usual.
Pathetic.

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Says the person who goes around demanding people not to discuss.
Citation required.
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Old 30th August 2019, 10:02 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It depends what that "he" refers to - is it the man, or the other man?

And has anyone checked if it just means squeezed to a narrow strip of one side of the bed?
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Old 30th August 2019, 10:21 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
My question is - does the Bible actually comment on, or really even mention, lesbians? I know that a man who lieth with another man is an abomination, but did the goat herders have anything to say about lesbians? I don't recall a specification. .
I think the lack of references to lesbians brings that passage in the bible into question. Is it referring to men having sex or is it referring to men who tell falsehoods with other men as they do with women are abominations. Reading the bible telling falsehoods is THE major theme, and the bible goes into great detail about when it is okay to lie and when it isn't.

This one passage was probably changed from "lieth to other men" to "lieth with other men" later when the church was trying to get men in remote areas, ehere there were few, if any, women, to stop having srx with animals and each other.
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Old 30th August 2019, 10:26 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, but loads of them are eating shellfish and wearing mixed cloth, so...
But Christians largely don't believe in that stuff and don't claim to, unless they're Biblical inerrantists, and even that has a workaround. There are workarounds for homosexuality too in some circles, oddly enough.
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Old 30th August 2019, 12:44 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
This. It's interesting that actual science has linked expressions of homophobia with repressed homosexuality.
Itís blatantly obvious anyone who thinks they made a conscious choice to be straight, clearly isnít, or they would never have needed to make a choice.
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Old 30th August 2019, 01:24 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
But Christians largely don't believe in that stuff and don't claim to, unless they're Biblical inerrantists, and even that has a workaround. There are workarounds for homosexuality too in some circles, oddly enough.
Isn't that called a reach around?
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Old 30th August 2019, 01:33 PM   #95
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It is kind of a double bind for the homophobes. If heterosexuality is a choice, then it suggests that homosexuality is a part of nature. We can, like Rosie in The African Queen, declare that nature is what we are put on earth to rise above, and pat ourselves on the back for choosing as our god prefers, but we cannot claim nature is not natural.
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Old 30th August 2019, 02:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
But Christians largely don't believe in that stuff and don't claim to, unless they're Biblical inerrantists, and even that has a workaround. There are workarounds for homosexuality too in some circles, oddly enough.
Oddly enough? I think the fact that people choose to work around irrelevant things like mixed cloth and shellfish while full on dehumanizing and discriminating against people on an issue as important as sexuality is a pretty good indicator that many Christians are horrid people.

The fact that all these points of discrimination come from religion is a shining example of why religion is a horrid institution and why it should be abolished.
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Old 30th August 2019, 05:05 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
The default is the female gene which gets modified when the male gene is introduced. It's why males still have nipples.

Quite. The default is a person with female attributes, the X chromsome makes you a male instead.
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Old 30th August 2019, 06:46 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah well they also believe the Earth was created a few thousand years after the Sumerians learned how to brew beer so...
Some of them. There are a lot of Christians who think homosexuality is a sin but aren't Young Earth Creationists.
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Old 30th August 2019, 06:47 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
We used to have a better class of "diversity of views" around here.

Come back lifegazer and Interesting Ian, all is forgiven.
+1
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Old 30th August 2019, 06:57 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Some of them. There are a lot of Christians who think homosexuality is a sin but aren't Young Earth Creationists.
How do you know this?
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Old 30th August 2019, 07:58 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Quite. The default is a person with female attributes, the X chromsome makes you a male instead.
Why? I mean, Y.
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Old 30th August 2019, 09:50 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
How do you know this?
That's a valid question. I suppose it's possible that the set of Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin is almost entirely within the set of Christians who are YECs.

I was going off the fact that most christians aren't YECs, so if there's a relatively even distribution of homosexuality-is-sin-christians throughout the set of all christians, then there would be many who are not YECs. That model obviously isn't valid as I'd expect that there are more heavily represented among biblical literalists (who are also much more likely to be YECs than average). But I wouldn't expect a complete overlap.

Here's some data:

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-l...volution-trend


The "should be discouraged" category isn't exactly the same as "homosexuality is a sin", but it's relatively close. Note that 10% of the should be discouraged group believe in evolution*, which clearly makes them not YECs. That seems like a significant number of people to me.

*ETA: actually, the 10% are "humans evolved due to natural processes", but 22% say "evolved due to god's design" and another 5% say "evolved, don't know how". That adds up to 37% of the "should be discouraged" group who are probably not YECs. The "always existed in their present form" 60% are probably YECs though.
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Old 30th August 2019, 09:55 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
How do you know this?
Catholicism is officially against homosexuality and YEC both, and it's the largest denomination of Christianity. One benefit of having an evil undemocratic theocratic hierarchy is that you don't need to do surveys to find out what that religion's beliefs are.
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Old 30th August 2019, 10:15 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Well, there is no female gene, but there is a male gene.

Chromosome?
Chromosomes have multiple genes.

Oh, you mean SRY?
It's not the only one though.
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Old 30th August 2019, 10:24 PM   #105
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Genes tend to be male, whereas Jeans tend to be female. In English, anyway. In French the Jeans are male and the Jeannes are female. Does this mean some people change sex when they pass over the Channel? Obviously yes. But they remain attracted to whichever sex they were attracted to before, so they are technically gay for the duration of their time on the other side of the border. This is another reason to encourage tourism, it leads to all sorts of fun.

eta: it also means Brexit will reduce the number of wild vacation orgies, and should be opposed on those grounds.
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Old 30th August 2019, 10:56 PM   #106
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There is nothing new under the sun. This question of "choice" has been discussed before (When did you choose to be heterosexual?).

As I said before:
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I never chose to be either homo or hetero sexual but I did choose to be ugly.
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Old 30th August 2019, 11:17 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Itís blatantly obvious anyone who thinks they made a conscious choice to be straight, clearly isnít, or they would never have needed to make a choice.

No, it's not at all as simple as that. I think that you are probably more likely to become a homophobe if you have homosexual tendencies that you repress than if you are 100% hetero and never felt 'tempted' to have gay sex, but people are funny that way. Look at fat-shaming for a comparison where we can leave out religion completely since I don't think that the Bible tells us that overeating is a sin against God. (The people who wrote the Bible didn't have that problem. On the contrary.):

Some of us eat when we are hungry and stop when we are satiated. We don't count calories or study labels, and yet for some reason we don't get fat. It's not a conscious decision, and we don't have to make an effort. If we exercise more, our appetite grows; if we don't, it decreases.
Therefore, I also see no reason to feel proud of this. I can imagine what it must be like to feel hungry all the time, and I'm pretty sure that if I did, I would find it extremely difficult to resist eating more than what was good for me.

However, if I wanted to, I could use the combination of my metabolism (whatever) and eating habits to brag about what a splendid individual I am, Trump-style, and pretend that I'm slim because of a regimen that I put myself through. (Well, Trump couldn't do that, exactly ...) It would be a lie, but people lie about stuff like this all the time. And I could similarly compare myself to all the fat slobs who can't control themselves: If I want to see myself as such a splendid individual, it works much better if I compare myself to a background of people who (obviously) aren't, so I'll make them appear to be despicable over-indulgers. They might be fat because they can't afford tasty, nutritious food or because they live in neighborhoods that don't make them want to take a quick stroll and for a breath of fresh air or to enjoy the scenery. But looking at it that way, isn't nearly as much fun, is it?

Being proud of your sexual orientation is just as absurd, but if that's one of the few things that you think you've got going for you, you can do it: 'I'm 100% straight!' But there's not much fun in that if somebody else says, 'And I'm 100% gay, so what?!' unless you can tell them why being straight is something to be proud of. Now, you can use the Bible, you can use Darwinism, you can use nationalism, but in order for you to stand out as superior, you have to find ways of putting down homosexuality if you want to make it work.

(It's also how poverty-shaming works: It must be something that the lazy poor do to themselves! In contrast to you, who worked hard all your life in spite of all the millions you got from your dad!)
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Old 31st August 2019, 12:08 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, it's not at all as simple as that. I think that you are probably more likely to become a homophobe if you have homosexual tendencies that you repress than if you are 100% hetero and never felt 'tempted' to have gay sex, but people are funny that way. Look at fat-shaming for a comparison where we can leave out religion completely since I don't think that the Bible tells us that overeating is a sin against God. (The people who wrote the Bible didn't have that problem. On the contrary.):
Gluttony is one of the Heavy Seven

ETA: .... if you believe in that sort of thing

ETA2 .... which I don't.
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Old 31st August 2019, 03:53 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Arisia View Post
Whether it's nature or nurture*, it's still not a choice.


*-Nature all the way, of course.


If I wish hard enough, can I change my natural hair color or eye color? You'd think those would be less complicated and more achievable than changing sexual orientation.
Yup your first paragraph is what I was going to post
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Old 31st August 2019, 06:22 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Gluttony is one of the Heavy Seven
... which weren't in the Bible.
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Old 31st August 2019, 08:10 AM   #111
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The OP starts by citing a study in support of anti-gay bigotry that in fact concludes the very opposite of his position, then goes on within just a few posts to completely misstate the science of genetics, somatic mutations, epigenetic changes, and the differences between changes in DNA sequence vs. changes in gene expression. What an incredible blather of wrong statements based on an uncomprehending and superficial reading of popular science articles, all seeking desperately to extract some tidbit to defend the indefensible. I wonder if these are just quotes of packaged talking points being circulated by some anti- gay group, or if this level of wrong originated with the OP himself?

In any case I never really bought into the "Being gay is okay because it's genetic and they can't help themselves." That's insulting! Being gay is in part genetic, yes, but it's okay to be gay no matter why one is gay. However the idea that one "chooses" to be gay does seem silly: when did I choose to be primarily attracted to women? Whatever the mix of reasons for a particular sexual orientation ( which is itself almost always some mix) it is quite fundamental to our being.

Last edited by Giordano; 31st August 2019 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 31st August 2019, 08:42 AM   #112
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Wow, that breakdown is right on point (other than the "discouraged" vs "sin" issue).

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I was going off the fact that most christians aren't YECs, so if there's a relatively even distribution of homosexuality-is-sin-christians throughout the set of all christians, then there would be many who are not YECs. That model obviously isn't valid as I'd expect that there are more heavily represented among biblical literalists (who are also much more likely to be YECs than average). But I wouldn't expect a complete overlap.
Focused on US? 38% of Americans hold YEC views according to this poll.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/...s-new-low.aspx

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Here's some data:

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-l...volution-trend
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-l...volution-trend

The "should be discouraged" category isn't exactly the same as "homosexuality is a sin", but it's relatively close. Note that 10% of the should be discouraged group believe in evolution*, which clearly makes them not YECs. That seems like a significant number of people to me.

*ETA: actually, the 10% are "humans evolved due to natural processes", but 22% say "evolved due to god's design" and another 5% say "evolved, don't know how". That adds up to 37% of the "should be discouraged" group who are probably not YECs. The "always existed in their present form" 60% are probably YECs though.
I wasn't actually concerned with your original claim. I was more interested along the lines of testing "relatively even distribution of homosexuality-is-sin-christians throughout the set of all christians."

If I go to the table view of your chart and calculate other statistics from it I find that YECs are pretty much the opposite of other Christians in the sample, though their rate of disapproval of homosexuality is smaller than I would have expected.

Working across the five columns of the table I find the approval/disapproval percents to be:
Secular evolution view: 76/18 (overwhelming approval).
Theistic evolution view: 63/29 (overwhelming approval).
Evolution, other: 61/22 (overwhelming approval).
YEC: 37/55 (Majority disapprove)
Don't know: 34/41 (split)

Here are the absolute numbers for the table to double check me.
Code:
  3994 4526 532 3860 399
  965 2123 193 5789 482
  147  316  68  475 124
  115  239  77  364 163
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Catholicism is officially against homosexuality and YEC both, and it's the largest denomination of Christianity. One benefit of having an evil undemocratic theocratic hierarchy is that you don't need to do surveys to find out what that religion's beliefs are.
That idea doesn't really square with other polls on any subject I've ever considered. Catholics don't always believe what they are told to believe.
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Old 31st August 2019, 08:46 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
However the idea that one "chooses" to be gay does seem silly: when did I choose to be primarily attracted to women?
And even if it is a choice, what difference does that make? It's still okay to be gay and it's nobody else's business.

**Great post by the way**
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Old 31st August 2019, 09:12 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We have to find something that breaks their beliefs that it's a sin.
Or you can just toughen it out until enough of them die that you don't have to care about their opinions.
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Old 31st August 2019, 09:21 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
That idea doesn't really square with other polls on any subject I've ever considered. Catholics don't always believe what they are told to believe.
Then they are not actual Catholics. Yes, yes, somebody's going to say "no true Scotsman!" but the thing is it's not a fallacy in this context; Catholicism requires its adherents to believe the official teachings of the Church in order to be Catholic. It's like being a McDonald's francisee: you aren't allowed to deviate from the appointed menu or decorate however you please, and if you can't handle that you have to start your own restaurant and god help you if you try to call it McDonald's!
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Old 31st August 2019, 10:34 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Or you can just toughen it out until enough of them die that you don't have to care about their opinions.
That's already happening. Remember the big uproar when stores started opening on Sundays? We heard all the same arguments from Christians: "Western society is on the verge of collapse!", "God will rain down his pinishment on us!", "The very fabric of society is being torn . . .!"

Anyone heard any complaints about Sunday shopping lately? Me neither and I recently saw a poll which stated more than 50% of Americans support gay marriage. Progress away from religious stupidity.
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Old 31st August 2019, 10:52 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
However the idea that one "chooses" to be gay does seem silly: when did I choose to be primarily attracted to women?

Nothing makes it clearer that sexual orientation is not a choice than the people who actually choose to become attracted to the opposite sex.
They fail spectacularly: 5 Surprising Facts about Gay Conversion Therapy (LiveScience, June 4, 2013)
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Old 31st August 2019, 11:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I agree. While causes of things are of academic interest they aren't that important outside of the context of problem-solving. So if you don't see homosexuality as a problem that needs solving what ultimately causes it isn't terribly interesting.
They do tend to be used as excuses by bigots however.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I like strawberries and dislike pears. I prefer hot weather to cold. I like less clutter in my house than most. I like other dudes sexually.
That's fine, but the important question; where do you fit on the like-hate Brussels sprouts spectrum?
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Old 31st August 2019, 11:03 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Quite. The default is a person with female attributes, the X chromsome makes you a male instead.
Y. X is the default, Y the mutation.
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Old 31st August 2019, 12:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Y. X is the default, Y the mutation.
What do default and mutation mean in this context?
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