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Old 1st September 2019, 01:05 PM   #1
cullennz
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Pet owners hang your heads in shame

Apparently owning a medium size dog is double as bad for climate change than driving a SUV 10k a year.

I don't have a SUV and only own a small dog, so I am not so guilty.

Quote:
According to research published in the New Scientist, the carbon footprint of a sports utility vehicle driven for 10,000 kilometres for a year is about less than half of a medium sized dog like a labrador or a Golden Retriever.

At a Sydney University forum last week, experts from RSPCA, vets and environmentalists called on the public to rethink the number of pets we have, the size of these pets, and also the species. Lizards anyone?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...et-expert-says
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Old 1st September 2019, 01:12 PM   #2
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OMG! another great study saying living life is killing us. yawn
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Old 1st September 2019, 02:38 PM   #3
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I trained my corgi, Woofleton, to drive my SUV. He chaffeurs me to and from work, so the SUV pollution and dog pollution cancel each other out to zero. I am saving the Earth and living in style!
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Old 1st September 2019, 02:55 PM   #4
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I have two small dogs. Does that count as one medium dog?

I raised a vegan son so I think I get some credits for that.
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Old 1st September 2019, 03:08 PM   #5
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Just plain existing is bad for the environment, but I intend to keep doing it as long as I can.

Also, New Scientist is not a very reliable source. They're the National Enquirer of science publications.
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Old 1st September 2019, 04:18 PM   #6
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I haven't read the article, and I don't have a dog, and and and....but I just wonder if they compared the carbon footprint of a dog to that of any other critters. How does the carbon footprint of a dog compare to that of, say, a tiger? I think it's fine to think hard about the environmental cost of pets, and perhaps even to use that thinking to decide how to balance the benefit with the cost, but I suspect the arithmetic.
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Old 1st September 2019, 04:53 PM   #7
cullennz
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The elephant in the room is kids

I am guessing having one kid would have a larger foot print than 6 medium size dogs in NZ.

Given average life span of a dog is 10-13 and humans are 82

Parents eh? Planet killers
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Old 1st September 2019, 05:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
A study by Professor Greg Okin from UCLA found American dogs and cats consume about a third of the animal-derived energy (or meat) that humans do.
To the OP. You could at least address their reasoning than just their conclusion. Logical fallacy: appeal to consequences.

Dogs and cats are obligate carnivores. Creating meat requires a lot of resources and an increase in destruction of the natural environment. Refer to the topic about the Amazon burning. One of the reasons it is being destroyed is to provide for the ever increasing demand for meat. According to the article one third of the meat being produced is for pets.
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Old 1st September 2019, 05:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I haven't read the article, and I don't have a dog, and and and....but I just wonder if they compared the carbon footprint of a dog to that of any other critters. How does the carbon footprint of a dog compare to that of, say, a tiger? I think it's fine to think hard about the environmental cost of pets, and perhaps even to use that thinking to decide how to balance the benefit with the cost, but I suspect the arithmetic.
Currently, the environmental cost of the tiger is rapidly heading down to zero.
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Old 1st September 2019, 05:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The elephant in the room is kids

I am guessing having one kid would have a larger foot print than 6 medium size dogs in NZ.

Given average life span of a dog is 10-13 and humans are 82

Parents eh? Planet killers
The cause of the current mass extinction event is us. That's a simple, plain fact. This is a mass extinction that rates with the worst in the history of this planet.
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Old 1st September 2019, 05:27 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
.... According to the article one third of the meat being produced is for pets.
I don't think any rancher is producing "pet food". The pet food industry depends on the off-cuts from meat prepared for human consumption. Eaten any kidney, spleen, uterus, intestine, heart, blood vessel,.. lately? Or a 20 year old milk cow? Brood sow? YOU won't eat it, and it has no other use than feeding pets.

Anybody google the lead author? Is he a Vegan or on the board of PETA? They usually have a political bias.
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Old 1st September 2019, 05:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I don't think any rancher is producing "pet food". The pet food industry depends on the off-cuts from meat prepared for human consumption. Eaten any kidney, spleen, uterus, intestine, heart, blood vessel,.. lately? Or a 20 year old milk cow? Brood sow? YOU won't eat it, and it has no other use than feeding pets.

Anybody google the lead author? Is he a Vegan or on the board of PETA? They usually have a political bias.

I think debating the facts is worth doing. The OP just dismissed the claims for no reason other than he thought it was absurd. It would be interesting to know how pet food is being sourced. IIRC a lot of fishing is for pet food, that is, wild rather than farmed.
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Old 1st September 2019, 06:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The elephant in the room is kids

I am guessing having one kid would have a larger foot print than 6 medium size dogs in NZ.

Given average life span of a dog is 10-13 and humans are 82

Parents eh? Planet killers
Or if your pet is an elephant then it is the Elephant in the room.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st September 2019, 06:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The cause of the current mass extinction event is us. That's a simple, plain fact. This is a mass extinction that rates with the worst in the history of this planet.
Figures please.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st September 2019, 06:16 PM   #15
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I only have a St Bernard and a small dog oh and a couple of cats too.
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Old 1st September 2019, 06:28 PM   #16
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The author of the article is likely a cat.
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Old 1st September 2019, 06:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I only have a St Bernard and a small dog oh and a couple of cats too.
Hey, if you fed the cats to the small dog, then fed the small dog to the St. Bernard, you could significantly reduce your carbon footprint!*

* Legal Disclaimer: We do not seriously propose that you follow this advice. This advice is for (possibly failed) humorous purposes only. Take this advice only with the approval of a qualified veterinarian. We disclaim all responsibility for any adverse outcomes caused by following this advice. Do not try this at home, your mileage may vary, void where prohibited, etc., etc., etc.
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Old 1st September 2019, 06:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Figures please.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09678


https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelo...dented-report/
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The cause of the current mass extinction event is us. That's a simple, plain fact. This is a mass extinction that rates with the worst in the history of this planet.
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Figures please.
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Those are links, not figures.

Yes, it is argued that humans are causing the sixth mass extinction event. While I don't dispute that, you are arguing that this "rates with the worst of these".

Here are the five mass extinction events (I extracted from that Nature article) so far and number of species estimated to have died off.

Quote:
The Ordovician event ended ∼443 Myr ago; within 3.3 to 1.9 Myr 57% of genera were lost, an estimated 86% of species.

The Devonian event ended ∼359 Myr ago; within 29 to 2 Myr 35% of genera were lost, an estimated 75% of species.

The Permian event ended ∼251 Myr ago; within 2.8 Myr to 160 Kyr 56% of genera were lost, an estimated 96% of species.

The Triassic event ended ∼200 Myr ago; within 8.3 Myr to 600 Kyr 47% of genera were lost, an estimated 80% of species.

The Cretaceous event ended ∼65 Myr ago; within 2.5 Myr to less than a year 40% of genera were lost, an estimated 76% of species.
The worst of these is the Permian event. Are any scientists really saying that 96% of species will die out?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

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Old 1st September 2019, 07:14 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I think debating the facts is worth doing. The OP just dismissed the claims for no reason other than he thought it was absurd. It would be interesting to know how pet food is being sourced. IIRC a lot of fishing is for pet food, that is, wild rather than farmed.
But once again, the pet food industry uses up the scraps. The dark meat from tuna goes in to cat food, along with roe, livers, skin, milt, etc. I bet you buy salmon fillets. Ever wonder what happens to the meat from between the ribs? 30% of wild caught fish for the pet food industry? Sure. But it is scraps.

I bet the OP article just used pounds of food using the same inflated figured that are floating around. Not even "lets credit our inflated carbon foot print for human food, the pet food is carbon neutral'?
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Figures please.
It's pretty common knowledge if you'd been paying attention at all.
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:22 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's pretty common knowledge if you'd been paying attention at all.
See post #19.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Those are links, not figures.

Yes, it is argued that humans are causing the sixth mass extinction event. While I don't dispute that, you are arguing that this "rates with the worst of these".

Here are the five mass extinction events (I extracted from that Nature article) so far and number of species estimated to have died off.

The Ordovician event ended ∼443 Myr ago; within 3.3 to 1.9 Myr 57% of genera were lost, an estimated 86% of species.

The Devonian event ended ∼359 Myr ago; within 29 to 2 Myr 35% of genera were lost, an estimated 75% of species.

The Permian event ended ∼251 Myr ago; within 2.8 Myr to 160 Kyr 56% of genera were lost, an estimated 96% of species.

The Triassic event ended ∼200 Myr ago; within 8.3 Myr to 600 Kyr 47% of genera were lost, an estimated 80% of species.

The Cretaceous event ended ∼65 Myr ago; within 2.5 Myr to less than a year 40% of genera were lost, an estimated 76% of species.

The worst of these is the Permian event. Are any scientists really saying that 96% of species will die out?
Quite the copout, you admit it's true then debate an extinction (the current one) that isn't being measured by fossils and isn't finished yet.

Want to guess how many species are going extinct right now in the Amazon? Have you added in the losses the coral reefs are experiencing? Dismissing species that are on life support because there might be a few breeding pairs left, or maybe there are frozen eggs and sperm we're not sure can be used to revive the species?

Might have been better if you'd simply said it was an exaggeration in your opinion. By the way, "rates with the worst in the history" does not say worse than any other.
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:43 PM   #24
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From the OP artical: (Prof Greg) Okin's research said if just a quarter of US pet food was suitable for human consumption, it would be enough to feed meat to five million Americans a year.

" if just a quarter of US pet food was suitable for human consumption," ?

I take that to mean that very little of the pet food is edible by humans. What we we even do with it if we didn't? Burn it to make energy and CO2 ?
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:45 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Quite the copout, you admit it's true then debate an extinction (the current one) that isn't being measured by fossils and isn't finished yet.

Want to guess how many species are going extinct right now in the Amazon? Have you added in the losses the coral reefs are experiencing? Dismissing species that are on life support because there might be a few breeding pairs left, or maybe there are frozen eggs and sperm we're not sure can be used to revive the species?
...
Hundreds? Thousands? Out of MILLIONS?
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Old 1st September 2019, 07:46 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Quite the copout, you admit it's true then debate an extinction (the current one) that isn't being measured by fossils and isn't finished yet.

Want to guess how many species are going extinct right now in the Amazon? Have you added in the losses the coral reefs are experiencing? Dismissing species that are on life support because there might be a few breeding pairs left, or maybe there are frozen eggs and sperm we're not sure can be used to revive the species?

Might have been better if you'd simply said it was an exaggeration in your opinion. By the way, "rates with the worst in the history" does not say worse than any other.
Wrong! I wanted the claim of rates along with the worst mass extinction to be substantiated. Thatís why I wanted the figures. Do we have the figures? If not then be careful about how you make the claims.

There are five mass extinction events. It is pretty clear how they rank. Where does the sixth rank? We donít know. So donít make the claim!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st September 2019, 08:10 PM   #27
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It's an off topic argument. Is there a thread on the current extinction event here?
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Old 1st September 2019, 08:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's an off topic argument. Is there a thread on the current extinction event here?
Why not make one?
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 1st September 2019, 08:49 PM   #29
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10,000 kilometers a year is nothing.


The magnitude of people not killed in a murderous fashion because Fido is a good dog is countless.
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Old 1st September 2019, 09:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Dogs and cats are obligate carnivores.
My understanding is that cats are but dogs are not.
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Old 1st September 2019, 09:20 PM   #31
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Most pet foods are corn soaked in animal fats. Probably with traces of other bits of critters.

Mostly filler in other words. My cat gets table scraps too so he gets real meat and grease lumps.
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Old 1st September 2019, 09:28 PM   #32
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
10,000 kilometers a year is nothing.


The magnitude of people not killed in a murderous fashion because Fido is a good dog is countless.
Unless Fido develops a taste for blood and starts killing magnitudes of people in a fashionable way. Then all bets are off, and anybody who put a doggie door on their panic room will regret it.
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:08 PM   #33
Faydra
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Unless Fido develops a taste for blood and starts killing magnitudes of people in a fashionable way. Then all bets are off, and anybody who put a doggie door on their panic room will regret it.
Unless I told Fido to kill those people in which case heís still a good dog.
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:23 PM   #34
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
Unless I told Fido to kill those people in which case heís still a good dog.
Good in behavior but not in efficient results. Order your dog to kill people, sure. I shall request my cat not to kill people. I'm willing to bet my pet will achieve more murderation in a shorter period of time. It's all in knowing how to ask.
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:28 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apparently owning a medium size dog is double as bad for climate change than driving a SUV 10k a year.

I don't have a SUV and only own a small dog, so I am not so guilty.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...et-expert-says
This makes me very very angry. How dare you say anything horrid about dear lickle doggie-oggies!
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:29 PM   #36
dann
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Pet owners hang your heads in shame

Pet owners?! I only ever had parrots ... and one turtle!

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Eaten any kidney, spleen, uterus, intestine, heart, blood vessel,.. lately? Or a 20 year old milk cow? Brood sow? YOU won't eat it, and it has no other use than feeding pets.

Hamburgers? Sausages?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st September 2019, 10:40 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Pet owners?! I only ever had parrots ... and one turtle!
Parrots are the most destructive pets, ecologically speaking. Their long lifespans mean they eat up resources for longer, and their needs are enormous:

1. A single parrot will eat 500,000,000 times its own weight in beef and pork over the course of a month or two
2. Parrots use as much electricity as a medium-sized hospital, or a large hotel where there are conventions in those big rooms with the horrible carpets
3. It takes 30,000 years for parrot corpses to biodegrade, except the bones and beak which are made of adamantium and will endure for millions of years
4. A parrot can swiftly bite off a human's thumb, and it will jump at the opportunity to do so
5. Parrots can transmogrify into a serpent form and slither swiftly out of any cage
6. The feathers of a parrot require rare earth elements to retain glossiness, so commerical parrot chow has to be mined in China and transported by cargo ship at enormous expense
7. Parrots belch methane and fart clouds of ammonia vapor, up to 20% of the Earth's magnetosphere is evaporated every minute by parrotfart
8. Unlike decent birds, parrots have no souls which is why they hunger to steal them from humans
9. A cloud of parrots can exsanguinate a moose in under eight seconds, faster than piranha
10. Parrots can breathe solid rock for short periods of time
11. Mr Cheeky was the recordholding parrot for longevity because he ruled the night with bloodsoaked horror and murdered people until they assigned him the record
12. The Russian word for parrot is literally translated as "Siberian vampire obnoxious bird"
13. In the time it took you to read this list parrots destroyed a thousand acres of rainforest, gleefully slaughtering all the animals and insects and other birds and fish and crustaceans and whales and pinnipeds and mopeds within.

Turtles are okay, I guess. They're basically rocks anyway.
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Old 1st September 2019, 11:18 PM   #38
cullennz
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Parrots are the most destructive pets, ecologically speaking. Their long lifespans mean they eat up resources for longer, and their needs are enormous:

1. A single parrot will eat 500,000,000 times its own weight in beef and pork over the course of a month or two
2. Parrots use as much electricity as a medium-sized hospital, or a large hotel where there are conventions in those big rooms with the horrible carpets
3. It takes 30,000 years for parrot corpses to biodegrade, except the bones and beak which are made of adamantium and will endure for millions of years
4. A parrot can swiftly bite off a human's thumb, and it will jump at the opportunity to do so
5. Parrots can transmogrify into a serpent form and slither swiftly out of any cage
6. The feathers of a parrot require rare earth elements to retain glossiness, so commerical parrot chow has to be mined in China and transported by cargo ship at enormous expense
7. Parrots belch methane and fart clouds of ammonia vapor, up to 20% of the Earth's magnetosphere is evaporated every minute by parrotfart
8. Unlike decent birds, parrots have no souls which is why they hunger to steal them from humans
9. A cloud of parrots can exsanguinate a moose in under eight seconds, faster than piranha
10. Parrots can breathe solid rock for short periods of time
11. Mr Cheeky was the recordholding parrot for longevity because he ruled the night with bloodsoaked horror and murdered people until they assigned him the record
12. The Russian word for parrot is literally translated as "Siberian vampire obnoxious bird"
13. In the time it took you to read this list parrots destroyed a thousand acres of rainforest, gleefully slaughtering all the animals and insects and other birds and fish and crustaceans and whales and pinnipeds and mopeds within.

Turtles are okay, I guess. They're basically rocks anyway.
Little known fact

Turtle shells focus, intensify and reflect the Suns Gamma Rays, hypothetically it has been suggested they could take out over head aircraft and ships

In fact it has been argued they are the real cause of Bermuda triangle disappearances.

That and UFO sightings at night as extremely focused gamma rays can glow green in certain atmospheric conditions
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st September 2019, 11:22 PM   #39
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Would have thought most pet food is MSM, MDM and MRM, since the US banned letting people feed the atrocious stuff to humans relatively recent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechan...separated_meat
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st September 2019, 11:29 PM   #40
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
7. Parrots belch methane and fart clouds of ammonia vapor, up to 20% of the Earth's magnetosphere is evaporated every minute by parrotfart

I always wondered about this behavior:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

We were cooking with gas, and a couple of times the parrots managed to put either the strips of paper or the drinking straws on fire. However, they seemed to be blissfully unaware of this, at first, but when they noticed, they would drop them.

Or - if I were as anthropomorphizing as the firefighter Nathan Ferguson - I might jump to the conclusion that they were actually trying to burn down the house!

But now I know that they must have been trying to light their farts on fire!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 1st September 2019 at 11:31 PM.
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