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Tags racial incidents , racial issues , racial slurs , Walter Mosley

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Old 9th September 2019, 06:46 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The problem is, you are in a creative environment, where people's experiences are supposed to be cherished, and you told one of the greatest writers he can't tell a story with certain words.
Yes, it's unfair to expect Genius to follow the same rules everyone else does.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:46 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What is it with you and enpooped salad bars? This isn't the first time you've employed that simile. Did you have a regrettable experience dining out? If there's a story behind this I think it's time to let us in on it.
Nothing more deep then just my personal version of the "Who (crapped) in your cereal?" chestnut.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I wasn't aware "Contrarian douchebag" was a requirement to be a "respectable artist."

If I hire a chef with the explicit requirement that he not crap in the salad bar and he craps in the salad bar solely because I told him not to, he's just an ass, not some outside the box thinker keeping it real for the squares who can't handle his realness.
Why are you making this into 'Contrarian Douchebag'?

There is a term for trying to re-write a story, and then shutting down that story.

A writer uses words, his job is to utilize his experiences and storytelling ability to create a creative story. His words are his tools, they told him he couldn't use his words creatively to tell a story.

An artist uses colors to create artwork, if you tell them they can't use a certain color, you are affecting their creativity.

It's more like telling your chef you want a steak, but that he can't kill an animal to get it.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, it's unfair to expect Genius to follow the same rules everyone else does.
Again, you don't tell people in a creative writing environment they can't use certain words. That is the reason you paid a genius to work for you. Plus, he was telling a story and quoting someone.

Telling a right handed batter he has to bat left handed.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:49 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nothing more deep then just my personal version of the "Who (crapped) in your cereal?" chestnut.
I've never heard that one at all, much less frequently. Were you in a fraternity?
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Why are you making this into 'Contrarian Douchebag'?

There is a term for trying to re-write a story, and then shutting down that story.

A writer uses words, his job is to utilize his experiences and storytelling ability to create a creative story. His words are his tools, they told him he couldn't use his words creatively to tell a story.

An artist uses colors to create artwork, if you tell them they can't use a certain color, you are affecting their creativity.

It's more like telling your chef you want a steak, but that he can't kill an animal to get it.
Oh nonsense. When people are hired to do jobs they sometimes have to do those jobs within restrictions put on them by the people paying them to do a job. That doesn't magically change because the person hired to do the job isn't a mere mortal but... *pause for dramatic effect* //French Accent// ARTIST! //French Accent//

The "Sandwich Artist" at Subway can't put cucumbers on my meatball sub after I ask him not to because his artist's soul says they have to be there and just who the hell am I to tell an "artist" what ingredients they can and can't use on a sandwich...

I can tell him because it's my sandwich and I'm paying for it. Mosley was hired to write scripts for a TV show. If the producers of the show say "Every other word has to be pumpernickel and you are never allowed to use the letter W" then so be it, he either does it their way or he doesn't take the job.

He doesn't do the job outside their specification and throw down the "But I'm a creative artiste and I shall do it however I want so now I'm taking my ball and going home" card when called on it.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:52 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've never heard that one at all, much less frequently. Were you in a fraternity?
Well the Navy for 20 years so... yeah basically.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:52 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Again, you don't tell people in a creative writing environment they can't use certain words. That is the reason you paid a genius to work for you. Plus, he was telling a story and quoting someone.

Telling a right handed batter he has to bat left handed.
Very little employment occurs without the employee agreeing a behave in accordance with particular rules of conduct. If using that term was so important to him he should never have taken the job.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:38 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The problem is, you are in a creative environment, where people's experiences are supposed to be cherished, and you told one of the greatest writers he can't tell a story with certain words.
I've worked all my life in a creative environment, no idea where you get your idea from about what creative environments are like. (Hint there isn't "a" creative environment. )

Plus of course the story you are telling has nothing in common with the story reported in this thread.....
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Very little employment occurs without the employee agreeing a behave in accordance with particular rules of conduct. If using that term was so important to him he should never have taken the job.
For this guy, it was important, and he left.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
For this guy, it was important, and he left.
Then what's your problem with this event?
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:44 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Why are you making this into 'Contrarian Douchebag'?



There is a term for trying to re-write a story, and then shutting down that story.



A writer uses words, his job is to utilize his experiences and storytelling ability to create a creative story. His words are his tools, they told him he couldn't use his words creatively to tell a story.



An artist uses colors to create artwork, if you tell them they can't use a certain color, you are affecting their creativity.



It's more like telling your chef you want a steak, but that he can't kill an animal to get it.
He was writing, to put it simply, to a brief. When I did comic panels and covers guess what? I had to keep to the brief, it's all part of the job of being a commercial artist of any kind.

Plus in this case you are "trying to re write a story" and I've heard that's not a good thing from a member here.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've never heard that one at all, much less frequently. Were you in a fraternity?
Generally I've heard of it as " who has pissed in your cereal today".
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:46 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've worked all my life in a creative environment, no idea where you get your idea from about what creative environments are like. (Hint there isn't "a" creative environment. )

Plus of course the story you are telling has nothing in common with the story reported in this thread.....
Oh, sorry your creative environment sucks.

But Mosley said it himself:

Quote:
My answer to H.R. was to resign and move on. I was in a writers’ room trying to be creative while at the same time being surveilled by unknown critics who would snitch on me to a disembodied voice over the phone. My every word would be scrutinized. Sooner or later I’d be fired or worse — silenced.

I’m a fortunate guy. Not everyone can quit their job. But beyond that, we cannot be expected to thrive in a culture where our every word is monitored. If my words physically threaten or bully someone, something must be done about it. But if you tell me that you feel uncomfortable at some word I utter, let me say this:
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #55
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Again this is trying to re-write a simple "You ain't doing the job you were hired to do" narrative into some stifling the creativity of an artiste nonsense.

Artists aren't some special subcategory of humanity that gets to pick and choose and add on to what their job is at their own internal whims because of "creativity."
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #56
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"I am above the petty restrictions lesser people have to follow!" I don't buy that from Polanski either.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:50 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The problem is, you are in a creative environment, where people's experiences are supposed to be cherished, and you told one of the greatest writers he can't tell a story with certain words.
Right. And they can do that. They cut the checks, they set the rules.

Are they obliged to let a contract worker do whatever he wants? No. Can he walk? I guess, depending on his contractual terms.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Oh, sorry your creative environment sucks.

But Mosley said it himself:
Wait... he is extrapolating 'please don't use a slur' to 'my every word would be scrutinized and they would set me up to fire me'?
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The problem is, you are in a creative environment, where people's experiences are supposed to be cherished, and you told one of the greatest writers he can't tell a story with certain words.
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Why are you making this into 'Contrarian Douchebag'?

There is a term for trying to re-write a story, and then shutting down that story.

A writer uses words, his job is to utilize his experiences and storytelling ability to create a creative story. His words are his tools, they told him he couldn't use his words creatively to tell a story.

An artist uses colors to create artwork, if you tell them they can't use a certain color, you are affecting their creativity.

It's more like telling your chef you want a steak, but that he can't kill an animal to get it.
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Again, you don't tell people in a creative writing environment they can't use certain words. That is the reason you paid a genius to work for you. Plus, he was telling a story and quoting someone.

Telling a right handed batter he has to bat left handed.
He/they could put slurs into the mouths of characters. This is not about that.

It was about using slurs in conversation that company policy prohibits.

The company policy cannot be ignored for people of one race and not another. This would be the definition of a racist company policy. This company did it correctly, the slur was not allowed by anyone.

Imagine if the company ignored this, then another non-black writer started using the term. No action makes for a hostile work environment which would open the company to legal liability, while action would also open the company to legal liability.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The problem is, you are in a creative environment, where people's experiences are supposed to be cherished, and you told one of the greatest writers he can't tell a story with certain words.
According to Mosely, that didn't happen, though. From the article in OP: "Mosley went on to explain that the individual in HR said that while he was free to use that word in a script, he "could not say it." Mosley then clarified, "I hadn’t called anyone it. I just told a story about a cop who explained to me, on the streets of Los Angeles, that he stopped all n---ers in paddy neighborhoods and all paddies in n---er neighborhoods, because they were usually up to no good. I was telling a true story as I remembered it."

I took that to mean, because his usage of the word was during an anecdote and not related to his job, HR was telling him that casual use of the word in the writer's room wasn't allowed. Granted, it's a little ambiguous as to the exact rule and context, but I would imagine that, being allowed to use the word in script, if his usage of it was job-related, it probably would have been less of a deal. No one told him he couldn't use the word in a creative capacity.
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Old 9th September 2019, 09:33 AM   #61
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Quote:
My answer to H.R. was to resign and move on. I was in a writers’ room trying to be creative while at the same time being surveilled by unknown critics who would snitch on me to a disembodied voice over the phone. My every word would be scrutinized. Sooner or later I’d be fired or worse — silenced.

Hey SF writer... you're good at metaphors, right? You know the line in every mad scientist story, where the enraged monster is finally closing in on the mad scientist and the mad scientist is yelling "No! Stop! Obey me! I am your creator!"...?

That's what you're saying between the lines here. "This system of corporate and public monitoring of every word regardless of context or intent was created to protect minorities from the racists who use racial slurs! We were never supposed to actually have to put up with it ourselves!"
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:44 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are they the rules at your workplace that no one can say hello? Have you been contacted by the HR department to let you know this?
Yes. I just explained that. Please refrain from using your name or expect a call from our HR.
Our place - our rules - no matter how stupid. Paraphrased - that is what you stated in your post.
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Yes. I just explained that. Please refrain from using your name or expect a call from our HR.
Our place - our rules - no matter how stupid. Paraphrased - that is what you stated in your post.
"I should be able to say ****** because I can make up an absurd hypothetical" is just adorable.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:50 AM   #64
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Thing about this particular use of the word is that, according to Mosley:
Originally Posted by Mosley
I have to stop with the forward thrust of this story to say that I had indeed said the word in the room. I hadn’t called anyone it. I just told a story about a cop who explained to me, on the streets of Los Angeles, that he stopped all ******* in paddy neighborhoods and all paddies in ****** neighborhoods, because they were usually up to no good. I was telling a true story as I remembered it.

Someone in the room, I have no idea who, called H.R. and said that my use of the word made them uncomfortable, and the H.R. representative called to inform me that such language was unacceptable to my employers. I couldn’t use that word in common parlance, even to express an experience I lived through.
I'm all for appropriate sensitivity regarding that word, but this is indeed insane. Presuming Mosley is giving an accurate account, of course.

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Old 9th September 2019, 12:04 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Yes. I just explained that. Please refrain from using your name or expect a call from our HR.

Our place - our rules - no matter how stupid. Paraphrased - that is what you stated in your post.
That is 100% correct, if whatever rules a company choses to adopt are legal then they can be as stupid as they like.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:05 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What is it with you and enpooped salad bars? This isn't the first time you've employed that simile. Did you have a regrettable experience dining out? If there's a story behind this I think it's time to let us in on it.
If we dig through his work history, I'm betting on a six month stint at Mr. Gatti's.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I'm all for appropriate sensitivity regarding that word, but this is indeed insane. Presuming Mosley is giving an accurate account, of course.
Well, there is no police force in the country that would officially condone an officer using such language, so I think we can assume Mr. Mosley's account is inaccurate. I mean surely their partner would turn them in just as quickly as Mosley's team members turned him in.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:36 PM   #68
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It is surprising to me that he would work on something Sci Fi. As I recall, he usually wrote mysteries?
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Well, there is no police force in the country that would officially condone an officer using such language, so I think we can assume Mr. Mosley's account is inaccurate. I mean surely their partner would turn them in just as quickly as Mosley's team members turned him in.
Not today, but given the use of the term "paddy" in Mosley's account, one can make an educated guess that the the incident may have been from the 1960's - 1970's.

In the department my father served with they broke down the municipality into different districts for the purpose of assigning officers. One of the districts was the North Central District, or NCD for short.

I'm sure folks would understand where the racial slur was inserted into that name in the 1950's - 1960's by certain white pointy-hat inclined officers.

My father found himself assigned there because he was considered to be a "lover" of that demographic.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:47 PM   #70
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Paddies, though? When is the last time anyone used that slur in the US without attempting to sound like they were from 1890? Irish people have long since been absorbed into the vanilla pudding cup that is white America--I doubt a cop would even be able to identify an "Irish" guy in a black neighborhood as a paddy. Even in a city that still has "Irish" neighborhoods.

But sure, maybe the cop in this story was a dues-paying member of the Know Nothing party. If I were in the writer's room I would call HR to complain about having to work with a 150-year-old.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:47 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree that he was in breach of the rules. The bosses said that nothing would be done about it, tho. Seems to me they could have gathered around and talked like adults.

"- Bob is uncomfortable with your usage of the n-word around the writer's room...
Addressing this in the writer's room instead of involving HR was my first reaction as well. But after reading Mosley's OpEd it seems that if Bob the Snitch told Mosley (with all due respect) that he was uncomfortable with that word being used in the writer's room, Mosley would have given Bob a lecture and nothing would happen.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:48 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Err Mosely is black, and he used the word to describe himself - he has the absolute right to use a pejorative to describe himself if he so chooses and no-one else has any right to be offended by that.
In the phone call with HR, he used the word to describe himself. In the actual incident that was being complained about, he did not.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:51 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Addressing this in the writer's room instead of involving HR was my first reaction as well. But after reading Mosley's OpEd it seems that if Bob the Snitch told Mosley (with all due respect) that he was uncomfortable with that word being used in the writer's room, Mosley would have given Bob a lecture and nothing would happen.
For what it's worth, the most likely scenario (it seems to me) is that it was one of the other black writers who objected to his use of the word.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #74
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Paddies, though? When is the last time anyone used that slur in the US without attempting to sound like they were from 1890? Irish people have long since been absorbed into the vanilla pudding cup that is white America--I doubt a cop would even be able to identify an "Irish" guy in a black neighborhood as a paddy. Even in a city that still has "Irish" neighborhoods.

But sure, maybe the cop in this story was a dues-paying member of the Know Nothing party. If I were in the writer's room I would call HR to complain about having to work with a 150-year-old.
OK, mumblethrax, that was good.


And they're Micks FFS!
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:56 PM   #75
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I'm reminded of a skit on the Daily Show several years back where "Senior Black Correspondent Larry Wilmore" was talking about a possible incident where a number of African Americans students were accused of assaulting a white student on a schoolbus.

He played a clip of Rush Limbaugh. "This is what happens in Obama's America, the white students get beat up while the bus driver cheers them on; 'right on right on right on' (said in a cartoonishly stereotypical black voice)"

Wilmore's response was "So not only was the bus full of racist black people it was also from the 70s."
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:57 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Do you know what they used to call Brazil Nuts back in the day?
If by "they" you mean "racist white people", then yes I do.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:01 PM   #77
BStrong
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Paddies, though? When is the last time anyone used that slur in the US without attempting to sound like they were from 1890? Irish people have long since been absorbed into the vanilla pudding cup that is white America--I doubt a cop would even be able to identify an "Irish" guy in a black neighborhood as a paddy. Even in a city that still has "Irish" neighborhoods.

But sure, maybe the cop in this story was a dues-paying member of the Know Nothing party. If I were in the writer's room I would call HR to complain about having to work with a 150-year-old.
I heard the terms "Paddies" and "ofays" used by black guys to describe white guys while serving in the Army - 74 - 80.

It was more for fun than hateful.

I was also informed that being Sicilian from New Orleans made me one strike away from being - you know - but it wasn't intended to be hateful, just informative...
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Paddies, though? When is the last time anyone used that slur in the US without attempting to sound like they were from 1890? Irish people have long since been absorbed into the vanilla pudding cup that is white America--I doubt a cop would even be able to identify an "Irish" guy in a black neighborhood as a paddy. Even in a city that still has "Irish" neighborhoods.

But sure, maybe the cop in this story was a dues-paying member of the Know Nothing party. If I were in the writer's room I would call HR to complain about having to work with a 150-year-old.
Aside from the vestigial "Paddy-wagon".
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:12 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
...I was also informed that being Sicilian from New Orleans made me ...
A Wop?
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:15 PM   #80
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Yes let's all share our "Hey I heard this racial slur used 20-40 years ago stories" as if those actually matter and is if that makes a writer using the N-word in the writing room any different.
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