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Old 7th December 2018, 08:07 AM   #681
Ambrosia
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Are you suggesting that your vote was
unique, and that nobody else voted for BREXIT as a protest vote?
No.

Quote:
It would have not taken too many voters to do what you did to change the result.

Polls were showing 60/40 in favour of remain on polling day, which would have taken more like 10% of voters to cause a 50/50 result.

Quote:
a vote so close either way that nobody could be standing up and saying that "this is the will of the British people"
Which is exactly what we got. The country is divided on the EU about 50/50.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:16 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Vaping is a common subject for Ambrosia. I suspect they are involved in the industry and wants to pedal more product and sees leaving the EU as a means to that.
You would be incorrect. I was in the vaping industry. It wasn't worth it to pay the £100k or so I would have needed to to get the right bits of paper to stay in business so I closed up shop and laid off my staff.

I am still passionate about helping people to quit smoking though. When you talk to people day in day out who tell you much better they feel having stopped smoking it has that effect on you.

And whatever way you slice it Article 20 of the TPD is still a godawful piece of legislation that only helps big business.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:26 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
And whatever way you slice it Article 20 of the TPD is still a godawful piece of legislation that only helps big business.
And which likely would have been in effect in UK law had lobbying into European law not covered the UK.

Read all about UK lobbying here.


The issue you have is one of how politics currently works, not where it's happening.

You've been hoodwinked by the UK press and politicians - they've been telling you for years that it's Europe's fault and they've been lying.


Edit:

From: https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...ommunications/


Brussels:

Approx no. of lobbyists: 20,000
Money spent on lobbying: €1.5B

London:

Approx no. of lobbyists: 141 firms and individuals on the official register*, 784 firms and individuals on CIPR's lobbying register
Money spent on lobbying: UNKNOWN: The alliance for lobbying transparency estimates £2.0B



*That's right, there's an official register of people who can pay your MP to ignore your interests and substitute their own.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:38 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
So you think the EU is a bad thing and the UK would make better laws on its own because another EU country made better laws for itself and the UK didn't? I'm not sure I follow.
I do think the EU is a bad thing. I think the fundamentals of the EU are great, but is becoming an over complicated cumbersome bureaucracy and is getting more so over time.

I think that the laws of a country, and especially laws designed to protect public health should be written by experts in the field with the point of view of giving the best possible benefit to the public, with views informed by credible scientific research.

Anti-smoking laws should do lots of things to deter people from smoking tobacco and also allow people the choice for smokeless options where they are proven to be much less harmful.

Snus should be available Europe wide. It's much lower risk to health than smoking is, we can see exactly what kind of effect it has on smoking prevalence by looking at the figures for Sweden.
The UK cannot pass a law to legalise snus here because of an EU directive banning its sale (Article 17 of the TPD), even though such a law would greatly benefit the entire country by reducing the number of smokers significantly.

More info on the EU Snus ban can be read here.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:43 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post

I think that the laws of a country, and especially laws designed to protect public health should be written by experts in the field with the point of view of giving the best possible benefit to the public, with views informed by credible scientific research.
I would be shocked to learn this is what the UK would do if not for the pesky EU.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:50 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And which likely would have been in effect in UK law had lobbying into European law not covered the UK.

Read all about UK lobbying here.

This is probably true. Though it remains easier to change the laws of the UK than the laws of the EU.

Quote:
The issue you have is one of how politics currently works, not where it's happening.
You've been hoodwinked by the UK press and politicians - they've been telling you for years that it's Europe's fault and they've been lying.
Yes, my problem is with how politics works.

I wanted the discussion after the referendum to be along the lines of "How can we make the EU better so that noone wants to leave." I kind of expected that if the vote was really close that nothing would really change all that much.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:54 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I wanted the discussion after the referendum to be along the lines of "How can we make the EU better so that noone wants to leave." I kind of expected that if the vote was really close that nothing would really change all that much.
Before we can even reasonably have the discussion, we need to undo the hatchet job that UK press and politicians have been indulging in for the last 30 years in order to deflect from their own deficiencies.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:09 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The UK cannot pass a law to legalise snus here because of an EU directive banning its sale (Article 17 of the TPD), even though such a law would greatly benefit the entire country by reducing the number of smokers significantly.
How did Sweden allow it then? It being in the EU as well. Why can't the UK do the same?
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:09 AM   #689
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The latest cunning plan to get a good Brexit deal, courtesy of Pritti Patel - threaten to starve the Irish.

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-thr...81228-Dec2018/

She must think she's living in 1840. A little lesson in the realities of 2018 for her....

Quote:
Ireland Tops U.S. as the Country
Best Able to Feed Its People
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:49 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
How did Sweden allow it then? It being in the EU as well. Why can't the UK do the same?
It's explicity written into the directive that Sweden is exempt.

Originally Posted by TPD a17
Member States shall prohibit the placing on the market of tobacco for oral use, without prejudice to Article 151 of the Act of Accession of Austria, Finland and Sweden.

[...]


Council Directive 89/622/EEC prohibited the sale in the Member States of certain types of tobacco for oral use. Directive 2001/37/EC reaffirmed that prohibition. Article 151 of the Act of Accession of Austria, Finland and Sweden grants Sweden a derogation from the prohibition. The prohibition of the sale of tobacco for oral use should be maintained in order to prevent the introduction in the Union (apart from Sweden) of a product that is addictive and has adverse health effects.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:15 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
It's explicity written into the directive that Sweden is exempt.

The fact that UK legislators didn't seek the same exemption is telling.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:24 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The latest cunning plan to get a good Brexit deal, courtesy of Pritti Patel - threaten to starve the Irish.

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-thr...81228-Dec2018/

She must think she's living in 1840. A little lesson in the realities of 2018 for her....



https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/
It won't sink in. Hopefully they will get the boot but somehow I doubt it will happen.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:25 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by The Moog View Post
It won't sink in. Hopefully they will get the boot but somehow I doubt it will happen.
Face it, your namesake is a far brighter bulb than most of the Brexiteers.


Maybe they are having a drinking game and are seeing how stupid they can get before anyone realises what's up?
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:17 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The fact that UK legislators didn't seek the same exemption is telling.
Maybe British government officials and MEPs didn't care enough about standing up for small British vaping businesses. The EU is no doubt to blame for this though.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:42 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The latest cunning plan to get a good Brexit deal, courtesy of Pritti Patel - threaten to starve the Irish.

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-thr...81228-Dec2018/

She must think she's living in 1840. A little lesson in the realities of 2018 for her....



https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/
Oh, that will do wonders for the UK relations with the Republic.

Has Patel ever heard of the Potato Famine, and the emotional scar it left on the Irish people..which exists to this day?
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:45 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh, that will do wonders for the UK relations with the Republic.

Has Patel ever hear do the Potato Famine, and the emotional scar it left on the Irish people..which exists to this day?
I think the US has just said "look how stupid and damaging our government can be - top that!" and the UK's just said "hold our beer"
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:46 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh, that will do wonders for the UK relations with the Republic.

Has Patel ever heard of the Potato Famine, and the emotional scar it left on the Irish people..which exists to this day?
Patel is of Indian heritage. So its bad enough she doesn't seem to know any Irish history, she's clearly never heard of the Bengal Famine either.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:48 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think the US has just said "look how stupid and damaging our government can be - top that!" and the UK's just said "hold our beer"
If you wanted to stir up all the worst memories the Irish have of British rule, this is one hell of a good good way to do it.
And that includes Irish Americans.
I suspect at many Irish bars in the US "Revenge for Skibberean" will be sung tonight...
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:11 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Patel is of Indian heritage. So its bad enough she doesn't seem to know any Irish history, she's clearly never heard of the Bengal Famine either.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you wanted to stir up all the worst memories the Irish have of British rule, this is one hell of a good good way to do it.
And that includes Irish Americans.
I suspect at many Irish bars in the US "Revenge for Skibberean" will be sung tonight...
Agreed with both. And particularly stupid when it is the UK that will be the country falling over and likely to need the help.

As an aside my former parents-in-law were/are very Tory and I ended up being so bored that I read one of their books, which was an autobiography by the Duke of Devonshire - I was taken with dumbfounded by his assertion that the Irish always regarded him as English despite him owning lots of land in Ireland

I'd have thought even someone like that might have had the self-awareness to realise the history of English landowners in Ireland.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:31 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Agreed with both. And particularly stupid when it is the UK that will be the country falling over and likely to need the help.

As an aside my former parents-in-law were/are very Tory and I ended up being so bored that I read one of their books, which was an autobiography by the Duke of Devonshire - I was taken with dumbfounded by his assertion that the Irish always regarded him as English despite him owning lots of land in Ireland

I'd have thought even someone like that might have had the self-awareness to realise the history of English landowners in Ireland.
What was it that Dougal MacAngus, 4th Duke of Argyll said of Prince Edmund having Scottish titles?

"Ay, Duke of Edinburgh and about as Scottish as the Queen of England's tits."
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:46 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The latest cunning plan to get a good Brexit deal, courtesy of Pritti Patel - threaten to starve the Irish.

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-thr...81228-Dec2018/

She must think she's living in 1840. A little lesson in the realities of 2018 for her....



https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/
That piece of news made me see red. Priti Patel is a ******* moron.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:49 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The fact that UK legislators didn't seek the same exemption is telling.
I gather this is oral tobacco - known to cause mouth cancer. Good job it is banned in the UK, judging by the sheer number of people who carry on smoking regardless of the real horrors of lung cancer.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:52 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Agreed with both. And particularly stupid when it is the UK that will be the country falling over and likely to need the help.

As an aside my former parents-in-law were/are very Tory and I ended up being so bored that I read one of their books, which was an autobiography by the Duke of Devonshire - I was taken with dumbfounded by his assertion that the Irish always regarded him as English despite him owning lots of land in Ireland

I'd have thought even someone like that might have had the self-awareness to realise the history of English landowners in Ireland.
One of the most gob smacking dumb things I have seen in a historical film was "Far and Away" where Nicole Kidman's parents were supposed to be Anglo Irish landowners, and they had stage phony "Begorrah" Irish accents.
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Old 7th December 2018, 03:08 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What was it that Dougal MacAngus, 4th Duke of Argyll said of Prince Edmund having Scottish titles?

"Ay, Duke of Edinburgh and about as Scottish as the Queen of England's tits."
The implants are pretty obvious!
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:21 PM   #705
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Ah see, but that Irish thing is just part of the cunning plan.

After all, for Brexit to be successful the Empire needs to be revived so that the British economy becomes a relevant factor again to gain all those sweet trade deals.

This is just step one in re-forming the empire by re-annexing Ireland. Added bonus, it will also eliminate the need for a backstop. Political geniuses like Boris Johnson, Rees-Mogg or Nigel Farage would make excellent viceroys.
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Old 8th December 2018, 02:35 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I gather this is oral tobacco - known to cause mouth cancer. Good job it is banned in the UK, judging by the sheer number of people who carry on smoking regardless of the real horrors of lung cancer.
The UK banned these products and I remember Esther Rantzen being one of the main voices at the time.

The EU got.involved later. Just more propaganda.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...skoal-bandits/
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Old 8th December 2018, 03:38 AM   #707
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Threats of food shortages against Ireland could be a two edged sword.
UK imports a lot of foodstuff from Ireland.
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Old 8th December 2018, 03:54 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Threats of food shortages against Ireland could be a two edged sword.
UK imports a lot of foodstuff from Ireland.
And the EU.

Ireland, however is a net exporter of food.

Utterly disgraceful to try blaming the EU for the incompetence of British government for not having considered what would be needed to set up the customs infrastructure to leave before setting the deadline for leaving.
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Old 8th December 2018, 04:39 AM   #709
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So, if Parliament does take control of Brexit, will they be able to get a deal within three and a half months? Because given its current state, it may become even more of a shambles than May's current joke of an attempt.
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Old 8th December 2018, 05:07 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So, if Parliament does take control of Brexit, will they be able to get a deal within three and a half months? Because given its current state, it may become even more of a shambles than May's current joke of an attempt.
May is right in one respect.

It would be no deal or no Brexit.
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Old 8th December 2018, 05:16 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
May is right in one respect.

It would be no deal or no Brexit.
Or a delayed Brexit. We could either negotiate an extension or withdraw Art 50 and start again.
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Old 8th December 2018, 05:56 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Or a delayed Brexit. We could either negotiate an extension or withdraw Art 50 and start again.
You could negotiate an extension... but the withdrawal has to be made in good faith. That means not a reboot for another Brexit attempt.

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Old 8th December 2018, 06:20 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
You could negotiate an extension... but the withdrawal has to be made in good faith. That means not a reboot for another Brexit attempt.

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The preferred option would be to negotiate an extension but the EU apparently cannot stop us withdrawing Art 50 and could not stop us triggering it again at some point in the future.

So the only downside would be the loss of good faith in future negotiations. Of course the bigger issue with Brexit is that the EU is not going to give us anything particularly different in a future negotiation so unless there is an intervening General Election I really can't see us getting anything passed through the HoC
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Old 8th December 2018, 09:00 AM   #714
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
As I posted before even LeaveHQ said that trading on WTO terms would be bad


http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blo...s9eTz74nTWYNpU
Sked who is a former UKIP leader and academic from the London School of Economics keeps popping up on TV to say we should have a hard Brexit on WTO rules. I don't think it's practical business sense. There is a bit of background to his way of thinking at this website:

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._136586810.htm

Quote:
Trade with the EU could be carried on under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules. These are less favorable in terms of tariffs than the UK's current arrangements with the rest of the EU.
"I don't see the fear of WTO rules we do most of our trade with the world on WTO rules. America does the same. We trade with 100 countries under WTO rules," said Sked.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 8th December 2018 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 8th December 2018, 09:33 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I asked this elsewhere on the interweb, but has the PM ever alluded to No Brexit (ie Remaining) as an option before?
Because she did last night:

"This deal, which delivers on the vote of the referendum, which brings back control of our money, laws and borders, ends free movement, protects jobs, security and our Union; or leave with no deal, or no Brexit at all."



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Posted By:zooterkin
May was a remainer; so she might not weep at no Brexit. If she brought the UK to the realisation that remaining was the best option that might be the best way for history to remember her.
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Old 8th December 2018, 09:35 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So Ireland ďbelonged to the UK all alongĒ, huh? Iím pretty sure the Irish have a different view on that.

The EU is demanding that there be a border between itself and a foreign country. Save for cases of comprehensive customs and trade agreement thatís how independent countries work. If you didnít want that you shouldnít have insisted on being independent before such an agreement could be put in place.
Actually the EU is demanding there be no border; that is the issue!
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Old 8th December 2018, 09:38 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
May was a remainer; so she might not weep at no Brexit. If she brought the UK to the realisation that remaining was the best option that might be the best way for history to remember her.

Apologies to everyone. This is what happens when you miss click and go to page 1 rather than last!

I'll go back to lurking, Brexit is too much for my little brain.
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:43 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Apologies to everyone. This is what happens when you miss click and go to page 1 rather than last!

I'll go back to lurking, Brexit is too much for my little brain.
Would you consider taking the job of Brexit Minister?
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:47 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Actually the EU is demanding there be no border; that is the issue!
"The EU" is supporting the interests of a member-state concerned with the disruption to the lives of their constituents that the departure of another member state creates.

Standing up for individual member-state interests is now a point of criticism against the EU?
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:48 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Wales also voted to Leave, but then specific areas of England voted Remain (e.g. London, most major cities, etc.).
I vaguely remember a scifi novel about a future Britain split between advanced, walled, city states and the howling barbarian wilderness. Prophetic.
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