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Tags Illinois incidents , satanism , Satanism incidents

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Old 7th December 2018, 09:35 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Except all the stuff people like didn't come from Christianity. The parts that aren't secular (nativity) aren't secular. Even Santa is bastardized and barely related to it's source.

Again, the displays in the State building were recognized, by all, as religoius displays. It's why the Menorah is there, which is unrelated to Christmas, to which you have no objection. It had to fight it's way in a couple decades ago, too.

They are religious displays to those displaying them, whether you think so or not.
See, that's the thing: I see the plastic nativity as right on par with a plastic Santa. Sure, if you are Satanist, that might not be your decorating style. But just like the star or angel at the top of a tree, I think it is far less 'religious' than some people assume. I think it has slid along with the name of the holiday to be part of the decor.

For the 'Keep Christ in Christmas' crowd, yes, it will maintain its traditional meaning. Although it seems like a graven image problem to me. Oh,well. To hell they go , then. That will make the Satanists happy for Christmas.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:36 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
A nativity display is not religious?

Jesus ******* Christ.
It's actually a brilliant strategy. The dominant ideology can just claim their imagery isn't religious it's just social because it's so common.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:37 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
A nativity display is not religious?

Jesus ******* Christ.
Great example of a demonstrably religious term being secularized! I knew you'd get it in the end.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:39 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Great example of a demonstrably religious term being secularized! I knew you'd get it in the end.
Right. It's so secularized, that no Christian would consider it taking the Lord's name in vain or anything.

"Hey, don't use the Lord's name in vain around me!"
"That's ok, Jesus ******* Christ is secular."

Yeah, right.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:39 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
See, that's the thing: I see the plastic nativity as right on par with a plastic Santa. Sure, if you are Satanist, that might not be your decorating style. But just like the star or angel at the top of a tree, I think it is far less 'religious' than some people assume. I think it has slid along with the name of the holiday to be part of the decor.

For the 'Keep Christ in Christmas' crowd, yes, it will maintain its traditional meaning. Although it seems like a graven image problem to me. Oh,well. To hell they go , then. That will make the Satanists happy for Christmas.
You skipped the important issue:

The people that created the displays created and intended them religious displays. How you view them doesn't change that.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:42 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Right. It's so secularized, that no Christian would consider it taking the Lord's name in vain or anything.

"Hey, don't use the Lord's name in vain around me!"
"That's ok, Jesus ******* Christ is secular."

Yeah, right.
Nice bob and weave.

We were talking about how something obviously religious could be secularized. You opine that it cannot.

Saying 'oh, God' or Jesus Christ' is a perfect example.

Thanks again. Gold star for ya
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:46 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
You skipped the important issue:

The people that created the displays created and intended them religious displays. How you view them doesn't change that.
Fair point. Except the plastic ones at the Wal-Mart. They were made to hustle cash out of wallets.

Although they might have been civic-minded window dressing for the makers, for all we know.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:52 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair point. Except the plastic ones at the Wal-Mart. They were made to hustle cash out of wallets.

Although they might have been civic-minded window dressing for the makers, for all we know.
Selling a nativity scene is called commerce. No one is objecting that. At least not I.

Show me a nativity scene used to sell something and I'll show you Christian outcry about using a religious scene for commerce.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:56 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Selling a nativity scene is called commerce. No one is objecting that. At least not I.

Show me a nativity scene used to sell something and I'll show you Christian outcry about using a religious scene for commerce.
A Nativity scene is used outside a Church to sell a narrative and lifestyle that ends with forking over 10% of your pay.

QED
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:57 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

Mocking =/= positive for me. The Satanists don't need to stay silent, of course. Just maybe lighten up on the barbed jabs once or twice a year? Pick Dionysus for a sculpture, maybe. I'd drink to that.

But they (supposedly*) worship Satan for giving mankind the gift of knowledge so the sculpture could very easily be viewed as celebrating that rather than mocking Christianity...

For the record, I think it's a great sculpture and I'm no Satanist.

*That's questioning my knowledge, not the depth of their belief...
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:57 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A Nativity scene is used outside a Church to sell a narrative and lifestyle that ends with forking over 10% of your pay.

QED
Exactly, thanks for acknowledging it is indeed religious.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:07 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
But they (supposedly*) worship Satan for giving mankind the gift of knowledge so the sculpture could very easily be viewed as celebrating that rather than mocking Christianity...

For the record, I think it's a great sculpture and I'm no Satanist.

*That's questioning my knowledge, not the depth of their belief...
Agreed, it's beautiful and poignant in its meaning.

I don't see how they could be celebrating Christianity while they are cheering what Christians (Jews at the time, really) were ordered by their god not to do.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:08 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Exactly, thanks for acknowledging it is indeed religious.
Nope. That's a pure money hustle, just like Wal-Mart.

An actually religious person would not make use of a nativity, I would think. Would seem a little cheesy to their god, right?
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:28 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nope. That's a pure money hustle, just like Wal-Mart.
Of course it is. But to them it is religious. I think you are really stretching.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
An actually religious person would not make use of a nativity, I would think. Would seem a little cheesy to their god, right?
Of course religious people make use of the nativity. You're pulling my leg now

I applaud the Satanists for displaying their sacred beliefs at this joyous time of year. Beliefs that I share and encourage.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:30 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your objection to Santa on the fire truck and wreaths on City Hall is pretty extreme, I would think. Most civic celebratins have their origin in traditions, many religious. The White House Easter Egg Roll, for example.

Easter egg rolls are not the same as spring equinox bison-poop rolls. The symbolism does matter, as does the name.




Quote:
You would dismantle and defund any display that could have its origin traced back to anything religious, yes?


Defund? In a word, yes, if it is being funded by a government, whether that be federal or state or local. The wall between religion and government should be high and strong and impenetrable.


Dismantle? Not necessarily. Any private person or business or club or organization can do whatever it wants, and pay for it from their non-governmental funds. But every other group must have the same access to public space.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:35 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nope. That's a pure money hustle, just like Wal-Mart.

An actually religious person would not make use of a nativity, I would think. Would seem a little cheesy to their god, right?
I'm getting the impression that your idea of religion is from one of those hardcore protestant sects where everyone's a dour killjoy, and regard displays like manger scenes as so much frivolity that they can't possibly have religious connotations. If I'm right, suffice it to say your viewpoint is narrow and unrepresentative of the christian community as a whole.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:28 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I'm getting the impression that your idea of religion is from one of those hardcore protestant sects where everyone's a dour killjoy, and regard displays like manger scenes as so much frivolity that they can't possibly have religious connotations.
Your impression is wrong. The entire goal here is to create whatever fantasy is required in order to justify criticisms of the Satanist's display.

If that means resorting to denying that a nativity is a religious display, then that is what you have to do. Reality doesn't matter.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:54 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Of course it is. But to them it is religious. I think you are really stretching.


Of course religious people make use of the nativity. You're pulling my leg now

I applaud the Satanists for displaying their sacred beliefs at this joyous time of year. Beliefs that I share and encourage.
I share and encourage their beliefs as well. Do you think they are meant to be displayed as sacred? I thought you agreed that it was meant as a flip-off?
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:58 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I share and encourage their beliefs as well. Do you think they are meant to be displayed as sacred? I thought you agreed that it was meant as a flip-off?
I think its by definition no more a "In your face, I can do this and you can't stop me" than the Christian displays they are a response to.

I don't understand (no snark) what you mean by "flip off."
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:59 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I'm getting the impression that your idea of religion is from one of those hardcore protestant sects where everyone's a dour killjoy, and regard displays like manger scenes as so much frivolity that they can't possibly have religious connotations. If I'm right, suffice it to say your viewpoint is narrow and unrepresentative of the christian community as a whole.
Not at all. I do have tiers of sincerity, though. My bar for what would be sincerely religious is pretty high. Lip service and nominal Christianity bar is pretty low. The low end tosses plastic Jesus around with abandon. The high end is working a soup kitchen.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:00 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Your impression is wrong. The entire goal here is to create whatever fantasy is required in order to justify criticisms of the Satanist's display.

If that means resorting to denying that a nativity is a religious display, then that is what you have to do. Reality doesn't matter.
*cue theme from The Twilight Zone*
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:04 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think its by definition no more a "In your face, I can do this and you can't stop me" than the Christian displays they are a response to.

I don't understand (no snark) what you mean by "flip off."
The Christian/secular displays are put out in good faith in celebration of an actual feast/festival. The Satanists are not wishing anyone well or even claiming to be celebrating anything. They are quite literally saying neener neener, we can do this too.

And again, there is a time and place for that important point to be made. I don't think this is it.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:08 PM   #143
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It seems the cheap plastic nativity has set you off a bit, my friend. Maybe you should hang out with more Catholics. The whole religion seems to be about the adoration and worship of cheap plastic stuff, from beads to little statuettes.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:10 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Christian/secular displays are put out in good faith in celebration of an actual feast/festival. The Satanists are not wishing anyone well or even claiming to be celebrating anything. They are quite literally saying neener neener, we can do this too.

And again, there is a time and place for that important point to be made. I don't think this is it.
As Jesus remarked unto the people: 'don't start none, won't be none'.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:12 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Christian/secular displays are put out in good faith in celebration of an actual feast/festival.
There's where we disagree.

No I can't see into the mind of whoever put up this one particular display (anymore than you can into the Satanist) but there's certainly a "I can do this and you can't stop me because I'm the big dog in the yard" to displays of Christian iconography on government grounds in general.

This is an (arguably) ostentatious response to an (most probably) ostentatious act, not the ostentatious response to a innocent act you see it as.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:19 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I share and encourage their beliefs as well. Do you think they are meant to be displayed as sacred? I thought you agreed that it was meant as a flip-off?
It can both, just as some Christian displays can be both.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not at all. I do have tiers of sincerity, though. My bar for what would be sincerely religious is pretty high. Lip service and nominal Christianity bar is pretty low. The low end tosses plastic Jesus around with abandon. The high end is working a soup kitchen.
This seems like a "No True Christian" fallacy.

But, as you indicate, perhaps the high end Christians don't have a dog in this fight. This is between the 'low end' Christians vs Satanists. Why support what you claim is not (True) Christian and not support the Satanists that are also not (True) Christians? If neither reach your high standard of religious, why care either way?
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:26 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not at all. I do have tiers of sincerity, though. My bar for what would be sincerely religious is pretty high. Lip service and nominal Christianity bar is pretty low. The low end tosses plastic Jesus around with abandon. The high end is working a soup kitchen.



Is the high-end Christian working in a soup kitchen more worthy or less worthy than a secular person working in a soup kitchen? That is, does the religious belief or lack of it make a difference to their activity?
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:34 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It seems the cheap plastic nativity has set you off a bit, my friend. Maybe you should hang out with more Catholics. The whole religion seems to be about the adoration and worship of cheap plastic stuff, from beads to little statuettes.
Preach it preacher. I'm married to a Catholic. One would think it is the Church of Polycarbonate
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:36 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's where we disagree.

No I can't see into the mind of whoever put up this one particular display (anymore than you can into the Satanist) but there's certainly a "I can do this and you can't stop me because I'm the big dog in the yard" to displays of Christian iconography on government grounds in general.

This is an (arguably) ostentatious response to an (most probably) ostentatious act, not the ostentatious response to a innocent act you see it as.
That's a fair argument, though I think the long,-standing tradition of Christmas decorations and festivities lends credibility to the reason for the displays. Snakey handy thingy, not so much.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:38 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a fair argument, though I think the long,-standing tradition of Christmas decorations and festivities lends credibility to the reason for the displays. Snakey handy thingy, not so much.
And that's my point. Christianity has thrown its weight around and shoulder it's way into so much stuff that to use the "it's become standard" argument is kind of a problem.

So basically your argument is "The minority side has been drowned out by the majority side which proves the majority side is safely the default so the minority side doesn't get to shout louder because that's petty."
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:43 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
It can both, just as some Christian displays can be both.
Agreed

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This seems like a "No True Christian" fallacy.
Disagreed. Acknowledging levels of devotion is not saying one is more real, just that they will be different

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But, as you indicate, perhaps the high end Christians don't have a dog in this fight. This is between the 'low end' Christians vs Satanists. Why support what you claim is not (True) Christian and not support the Satanists that are also not (True) Christians? If neither reach your high standard of religious, why care either way?
My argument is not that 'true' Christians do x, y, or z. My argument is that the sculpture was a mean spirited flip off. When people are living it up, why piss on the parade needlessly, even in this small way?
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:46 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Is the high-end Christian working in a soup kitchen more worthy or less worthy than a secular person working in a soup kitchen? That is, does the religious belief or lack of it make a difference to their activity?
Not to me, no. Good works are good works. Putting creepy handy-snakey thingy in someone's party decorations is not an example of good works
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:50 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's my point. Christianity has thrown its weight around and shoulder it's way into so much stuff that to use the "it's become standard" argument is kind of a problem.

So basically your argument is "The minority side has been drowned out by the majority side which proves the majority side is safely the default so the minority side doesn't get to shout louder because that's petty."
No, my argument is that when a lot of people are having a good time, welcoming their religion, the secular, and other religions, don't shove your way in and tell them all to suck it.

Different argument, that. Its not the politico- religious perspective. Its just manners
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:53 PM   #154
The Greater Fool
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My argument is not that 'true' Christians do x, y, or z. My argument is that the sculpture was a mean spirited flip off. When people are living it up, why piss on the parade needlessly, even in this small way?
You believe it's needlessly. I don't.

And were back to page 1
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:53 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Preach it preacher. I'm married to a Catholic. One would think it is the Church of Polycarbonate
I'll just return to the back of the room and shake my head, then. Have fun!
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:55 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not to me, no. Good works are good works. Putting creepy handy-snakey thingy in someone's party decorations is not an example of good works



Putting a gruesome statue of a person being tortured where people who want to enjoy themselves -- that's pretty creepy also.


It seems you can't see that not everyone shares your view of what's appropriate in a multi-religious/non-religious society. The default position should be to keep all these things out of PUBLIC government spaces, but if that's not going to happen, the next best thing is to allow all of them.



If there are people who don't approve of one -- they don't have to look.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:08 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Putting a gruesome statue of a person being tortured where people who want to enjoy themselves -- that's pretty creepy also.
Agreed. I was raised in a protestant environment where a crucifix was never shown. Gruesome imagery.

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It seems you can't see that not everyone shares your view of what's appropriate in a multi-religious/non-religious society. The default position should be to keep all these things out of PUBLIC government spaces, but if that's not going to happen, the next best thing is to allow all of them.
Oh, I can see it quite clearly, that my view is not shared. I'm not overly concerned with Congress mandating religion on us, though. Much like I am not concerned with the President declaring a monarchy.

There is a line in there somewhere where people can enjoy a festivity without it becoming a constitutional crisis. Santa on a fire truck doesn't give me an existential crisis.

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If there are people who don't approve of one -- they don't have to look.
Hard to miss snakey handy thingy pushed up against the Christmas tree. Time and place for those battles
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:14 PM   #158
The Greater Fool
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hard to miss snakey handy thingy pushed up against the Christmas tree. Time and place for those battles
I doubt the Satanists had a choice in placement. The article said it was between a nativity scene and a Menorah, so sounds like reasonable placement to me.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:14 PM   #159
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Decorated trees, wreaths, lights, and Christmas celebrations are so important to the proper observance of Christianity that the devout Puritan Christian founders of my state banned them.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:48 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed, it's beautiful and poignant in its meaning.

I don't see how they could be celebrating Christianity while they are cheering what Christians (Jews at the time, really) were ordered by their god not to do.
I don't understand how you viewed my post as saying they were celebrating Christianity?! I stated it could be viewed as celebrating Satan giving knowledge to humans not mocking Christianity. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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