ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , stephen hawking

Reply
Old 7th December 2018, 09:30 AM   #3641
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
No. The statement "There is a skyscraper built with toothpicks" does not need science to be refuted. Common sense and our daily experience are enough.
But this is not our problem. Here it is stated that it is science that proves that "God does not exist". ...
You continue to misstate the premise just as psion does. Using imprecise language when precise language is called for demonstrates you don't understand science.

There is overwhelming evidence that humans make up god myths.

Your denial, based on you not seeing that in some journal, is ignorant. There are many scientific investigations of mythical gods.

There is no evidence of any real gods. By all means if you have some evidence post it. I know you don't because I know there isn't any.

From those two facts one can conclude there is overwhelming evidence that all gods are mythical beings. It's a valid conclusion.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th December 2018 at 09:31 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:40 AM   #3642
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Do you really believe that there are scientific subjects that science is not accustomed(????) to dealing with? This doesn't make sense. If a subject is scientific it will be dealt with in the places where science is done and published. That is, in scientific journals.

Do you think Ginger's analysis would be published in a scientific journal? That's as much of a science as an apple pie, regardless of what you say is uninteligible. Could you say that more clearly, please? What you think science is?

Of course you're not talking about malaria. It is the question that I ask you and that you avoid because you know that I have caught you or because you suspect it. So I will answer: If you want to know the effects of a malaria vaccine you will have to go to a scientific journal, medical in this case. It's the normal procedure when you want to know about a particular problem: go to the scientific literature on the case.
(By the way, I think you're wrong about what "scientific literature" means, not "literature" as you say).
There are scientific journal articles on the Cargo Cults. Your denial that gods are myths is based on the straw man argument, "Do you think Ginger's analysis would be published in a scientific journal?" Rather than accepting that evidence of human generated god myths is going to be cumulative, you insist my conclusion about the body of evidence must be what the 'scientific journal' addresses.

Saying no one can comment on a body of evidence until that comment itself is published is an absurd basis to deny conclusions on bodies of scientific evidence.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:42 AM   #3643
Prometheus
Acolyte of VŪūarr
 
Prometheus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 48,942
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks for illustrating how accurate I was in my prediction:

You will now undoubtedly waffle on about metaphors, we need to interpret x as z and so on. By all means do that but then you are no longer talking about the Zeus that people claimed existed.
According to the Greeks Zeus lived on and ruled from Olympus.
Zeus is a dick!
__________________
As Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy."
"I find your lack of pith disturbing," - Darth Rotor
..........
Don't be offended. I'm not calling you a serial killer. -- Ron Tomkins.
Prometheus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:45 AM   #3644
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,159
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Zeus is a dick!
Everybody knows that!
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:46 AM   #3645
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
I'd say more shapeshifting serial rapist than "dick" but at least he never drowned the whole world because his game of the Sims got away from him.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:51 AM   #3646
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Only because God has the tendency to retreat into ever greater vagueness when questioned.
(...)
Ah, well, how about an abstract principle of creation that only interacts with us in a way that is indistinguishable from random chance?

God is placed beyond the scope of, as you say, common sense and our daily experience, on basis of nothing but the say-so of his believers, who simultaneously claim that no claim about God has to be literally true for God himself to be real anyway.
Your first proposition is not scientific. It is a historical proposition, debatable in historical terms. As such it is liable to be specified and controversial. Do you agree?

The fact is that many believers, regardless of what we say in the first paragraph, believe that God manifests Himself to them internally with some kind of need that implies a certain degree of certainty. Regardless of whether or not he is a creator god and how that creation could have been effected. Do you agree that such beliefs exist?

If you want an example, and not to make this comment too long you could take a look at "The Moral Arguments for Deity" in Russell's Why I am not a Christian in Academy.edu or here: http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/te...0Christian.pdf
After you've read it we may be able to discuss the topic by focusing on something more concrete. If you like.

Last edited by David Mo; 7th December 2018 at 10:04 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:53 AM   #3647
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Well, I'll wait until one of you has something to answer to what I said.
Yeah because you aren't saying the same thing over and over that has been addressed ad nauseum.

You think you are moving the discussion forward. You aren't.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:55 AM   #3648
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,605
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I leave typos in my post on purpose to leave people who don't have any rational points to argue something to do. *Grins*
Clever.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:56 AM   #3649
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There are scientific journal articles on the Cargo Cults. Your denial that gods are myths is based on the straw man argument, "Do you think Ginger's analysis would be published in a scientific journal?" Rather than accepting that evidence of human generated god myths is going to be cumulative, you insist my conclusion about the body of evidence must be what the 'scientific journal' addresses.

Saying no one can comment on a body of evidence until that comment itself is published is an absurd basis to deny conclusions on bodies of scientific evidence.
The anthropological studies on the Cargo cults do not aim at the existence of gods, but at the mechanisms of formation of beliefs and social worships. But even so, the fact that the Cargo cults are a mystification does not scientifically imply that all religions are the same mystification. Believers in religions they consider evolved would agree that religions such as Cargo cults are false. But they would have reason to consider that theirs are different.

What's more, they would find anthropological reasons; in anthropology itself.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:58 AM   #3650
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Zeus is a dick!
And Prometheus is great! Long live Prometheus!
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 09:59 AM   #3651
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
And now we're going to have to explain how "A belief in something is not the actual thing itself" to David same as we did with Tommy.

I don't get this weird "SO ARE YOU SAYING THE BELIEFS AREN'T REAL?" thing you and Tommy are stuck on.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:01 AM   #3652
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd say more shapeshifting serial rapist than "dick" but at least he never drowned the whole world because his game of the Sims got away from him.
Nomed.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:01 AM   #3653
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,605
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I suggest changing the name of this forum to the three little pigs and the big bad wolf. More appropriate.
Which one are you? The straw house?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:02 AM   #3654
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah because you aren't saying the same thing over and over that has been addressed ad nauseum.
In what comment did you answer these questions?


Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
And how do you prove that a subject is really scientific?
How do you prove that a malaria vaccine is effective?

Can you answer these simple questions?
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:03 AM   #3655
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,605
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd say more shapeshifting serial rapist than "dick" but at least he never drowned the whole world because his game of the Sims got away from him.
That is an awesome summary of Genesis.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:03 AM   #3656
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nomed.
*Laughs* Last night I got frustrated trying to complete a certain mission in Jurassic World: Evolution so I just made a safe save of the game then deleted the exit to the park and turned off the electricity to all the carnivore fences and just... let it all happen.

If the Sims, the villagers in Minecraft, or the tourist in the Jurassic Park simulation games have souls there is no Hell I will not go to.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:12 AM   #3657
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which one are you? The straw house?
And you? The clever piglet surely not.

Last edited by David Mo; 7th December 2018 at 10:14 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:15 AM   #3658
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The anthropological studies on the Cargo cults do not aim at the existence of gods, but at the mechanisms of formation of beliefs and social worships. But even so, the fact that the Cargo cults are a mystification does not scientifically imply that all religions are the same mystification. Believers in religions they consider evolved would agree that religions such as Cargo cults are false. But they would have reason to consider that theirs are different.

What's more, they would find anthropological reasons; in anthropology itself.
You are ignoring the cumulative body of evidence, the Cargo Cults is only one an example.

You can't cite a single example of a god that is not a myth.

Your whole argument boils down to asserting that people's reports that the god they believe in feels real to them is evidence said god(s) exist. All the rest of your gobbledegook is just window dressing.
So if people believe astrology works, that's evidence it does.
If they believe in homeopathy that's evidence it works. After all, they felt it work.
If people believe they were abducted by aliens that's evidence they were.
I suspect you can see the problem, and I suspect you find some way to rationalize how god beliefs are different.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th December 2018 at 10:17 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:22 AM   #3659
David Mo
Illuminator
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 3,518
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are ignoring the cumulative body of evidence, the Cargo Cults is only one an example.

You can't cite a single example of a god that is not a myth.

Your whole argument boils down to asserting that people's reports that the god they believe in feels real to them is evidence said god(s) exist.
I'm not the one who has to prove anything. Science is supposed to prove that all gods don't exist. That was the subject of the thread.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:23 AM   #3660
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are ignoring the cumulative body of evidence.
It's not enough that "science" has proven water is wet, it has to prove that every individual water molecule is wet.

"Trends" are not allowed in Philosophy's Dojo.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:33 AM   #3661
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,553
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can't cite a single example of a god that is not a myth.

Your whole argument boils down to asserting that people's reports that the god they believe in feels real to them is evidence said god(s) exist. All the rest of your gobbledegook is just window dressing.
I don't think David is defending the existence of gods, as much as attacking what he sees as the arrogance of science. It appears that in his view, science is too rigid and too narrowly focused to be able to tackle the question of God. That's why he keeps asking for scientific publications on the absence of the divine.

But it is David's view of science that is too narrow.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:36 AM   #3662
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
The problem is "Science needs to stay in its lane" is always, always, always, always thinly veiled code for "Science needs to stop telling me my woo isn't true."
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:42 AM   #3663
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,553
Come on guys, you can't say God doesn't exist just because there is no evidence of his existence or of any of the things that he is claimed to have done. Or because all the evidence we do have points to gods being made up by people to explain or justify why this is are the way they are!
How about all those deep thoughts people have? Don't be arrogant...
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:42 AM   #3664
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16,389
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not the one who has to prove anything.
Well, yes you do. The proposition that Hawking disputes is that gods exist. He wouldn't need to address the subject if it weren't a specific affirmative claim made by believers in gods. His disputation is based on observing that the laws of nature are sufficient to explain things previously attributed to those gods. "There exists a god" is still an existential question, and we have a well-established way of placing the burden of proof for existential questions.

The reductio ad absurdum aspect of the argument in favor of an unnecessary, ineffectual, invisible god has been thoroughly explored in this thread.

Quote:
Science is supposed to prove that all gods don't exist.
Well, no, just the gods that Hawking meant. You know, the ones actually believed in. Redefining "god" until it becomes absurdly ill-formed and obviously ad hoc does nothing but provide a shaky toehold from which to claim -- at best -- a victory in principle only over atheism.

Quote:
That was the subject of the thread.
So do you agree that malaria vaccines are off-topic?
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:43 AM   #3665
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 16,389
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
But it is David's view of science that is too narrow.
Agreed. It's a fairly typical anti-science polemic.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:45 AM   #3666
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
Eventually people will start to get that proving that a dog has 5 legs by calling a tail a leg isn't not clever in the slightest.

"I can make up some sort of God that no one actually believes in for the sole purpose of keeping the 'Does God exist' question going" doesn't strike me as that useful of an hobby.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:45 AM   #3667
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,605
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
And you? The clever piglet surely not.
No, I'm all halal meat.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:46 AM   #3668
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,900
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Agreed. It's a fairly typical anti-science polemic.
I wouldn't even call it anti-science per se. For people like David and Tommy "science" is just a poorly understood boogeyman and "philosophy" a poorly understood savior.

Their issue is with any conversational frame of reference that opens up the possibility of them being wrong.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 10:46 AM   #3669
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 76,605
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not the one who has to prove anything. Science is supposed to prove that all gods don't exist. That was the subject of the thread.
Actually, no it wasn't. If you fail at the fundamental point, don't expect to be ever correct.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 12:23 PM   #3670
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,345
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I am pretty sure the phrase in it's entirety is " What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' do you not understand?"
Read my lips Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 12:50 PM   #3671
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not the one who has to prove anything. Science is supposed to prove that all gods don't exist. That was the subject of the thread.
A twofur, a dodge and a straw man all rolled into one.

It does tell me something, however, it's threatening for some people to hear all gods are mythical beings. They can't let go of 'you can't prove there are no gods'.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 12:57 PM   #3672
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't think David is defending the existence of gods, as much as attacking what he sees as the arrogance of science. It appears that in his view, science is too rigid and too narrowly focused to be able to tackle the question of God. That's why he keeps asking for scientific publications on the absence of the divine.

But it is David's view of science that is too narrow.
I agree with what you say. Tommy and David both make the claim [x,y,z] are all under the purview of philosophy. It's another out of date paradigm, all those subjective things science supposedly can't address even though there is a whole body of scientific investigation on things such as morality.

He has made contradictory statements on his own god beliefs, something I don't have much interest in.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th December 2018 at 01:01 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 01:59 PM   #3673
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,269
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Only because God has the tendency to retreat into ever greater vagueness when questioned.
Ah yes, of course the creation story in Genesis/Popol Vuh/Enuma Elish isn't literal... But it's still true from a certain point of view.
Ah yes, of course the stories of divine intervention where gods move mountains with their hands, show themselves to entire armies and raise the dead didn't literally happen...
Of course God doesn't really live on a mountain/above the sky dome/in a cave... But that's not important.
Ah, well, how about an abstract principle of creation that only interacts with us in a way that is indistinguishable from random chance?

God is placed beyond the scope of, as you say, common sense and our daily experience, on basis of nothing but the say-so of his believers, who simultaneously claim that no claim about God has to be literally true for God himself to be real anyway.
But this is the very strange thing, it is not the believers that say this it is those who want to be able to say science for whatever reason canít deal with the question of god.

The believers in god are very clear their god and gods interfere in the world daily, in ways that are claimed to be apparent to everyone. For goodness sake the largest single religion on the planet has an entire department devoted to documenting these interactions with the world!

It is the likes of David and Tommy that are out of step with the believers not us that often disagree with the believersí claims, itís them that so condescendingly have to explain to the believers that they arenít believing in the right way.

As I said so many posts back we would see David move to redefining what the believers in Zeus believed in, which of course he did.

When it comes to discussing or making claims about god or gods I accept what the believers say they believe in. Now I may disagree with them about that belief but Iím not going to arrogantly explain to them that they donít understand their own beliefs, Iíll live that arrogance to the likes of David and Tommy.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:02 PM   #3674
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,477
Good point there Darat.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:03 PM   #3675
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,269
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd say more shapeshifting serial rapist than "dick" but at least he never drowned the whole world because his game of the Sims got away from him.
Personally I don’t blame him for doing that. I was involved in the roll out of The SIms and nearly everybody within the first days of playing would have locked their Sim into a room with no exit. It’s just human nature.....
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 7th December 2018 at 02:03 PM. Reason: iOS keyboard
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:05 PM   #3676
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,553
You know, I'm really open to the possibility of these pseudo-philosophers having some special insight into the nature of the world that I lack. That they might have a reason to be so condescending and appear so vague.

But so far not one of them has come up with anything more developed and challenging than "Oh yeah? And what if reality isn't really what we think it is?" without offering any alternative for what it might be.

Last edited by Porpoise of Life; 7th December 2018 at 02:09 PM.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:17 PM   #3677
LarryS
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 915
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But this is the very strange thing, it is not the believers that say this it is those who want to be able to say science for whatever reason can’t deal with the question of god.

The believers in god are very clear their god and gods interfere in the world daily, in ways that are claimed to be apparent to everyone. For goodness sake the largest single religion on the planet has an entire department devoted to documenting these interactions with the world!

It is the likes of David and Tommy that are out of step with the believers not us that often disagree with the believers’ claims, it’s them that so condescendingly have to explain to the believers that they aren’t believing in the right way.

As I said so many posts back we would see David move to redefining what the believers in Zeus believed in, which of course he did.

When it comes to discussing or making claims about god or gods I accept what the believers say they believe in. Now I may disagree with them about that belief but I’m not going to arrogantly explain to them that they don’t understand their own beliefs, I’ll live that arrogance to the likes of David and Tommy.
I disagree with this - we 'ought' to critique the more reasonable and usable definition(s) of God. In doing so we are not telling folks what to believe - we are evaluating the most reasonable definition of God.
Unless the intent is to evaluate 'what people believe', but I see that as a seperate question.

IOW, a face-off of the smartest contempory definition/analytic of God(s) - and does it stand up to contermporary science.

Last edited by LarryS; 7th December 2018 at 02:20 PM.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #3678
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,269
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You know, I'm really open to the possibility of these pseudo-philosophers having some special insight into the nature of the world that I lack. That they might have a reason to be so condescending and appear so vague.

But so far not one of them has come up with anything more developed and challenging than "Oh yeah? And what if reality isn't really what we think it is?" without offering any alternative for what it might be.
Iím open to ďscienceĒ itself being relegated to one of those silly things we used to think was right, but anything that replaces it has to be better than science is at explaining, describing and modelling the world around us.

At the moment science is the best thing we have that does what it says on the tin but find me something better and Iíll start using that instead, Iíve zero emotional possessiveness in regards to science, I just want tools that work. Goodness me I even use both iOS and Android devices because each have their own strengths and the conflicts between science and religion and philosophy are a lovers tiff compared to the s OS wars!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:21 PM   #3679
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,269
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
I disagree with this - we 'ought' to critique the more reasonable and usable definition(s) of God. In doing so we are not telling folks what to believe - we are evaluating the most reasonable definition of God.
Unless the intent is to evaluate 'what people believe', but I see that as a seperate question.
But it is the religious that have gods, if we arenít discussing what they define as gods why would we use the same word to mean something quite different?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2018, 02:52 PM   #3680
LarryS
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 915
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But it is the religious that have gods, if we aren’t discussing what they define as gods why would we use the same word to mean something quite different?
Because there's no challenge in that. Is the question: Do the gods of the ancient Greeks exist? Or. Does the God (of the average RC believer) exist? How is this even interesting? I'm simply suggesting a definition of God that is NOT thousands of years old, nor is the best of the Bud Light guzzling masses (not that there's anything wrong with that)
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:00 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.