No one can grasp 'time'; Not even a scientist

MaartenVergu · 2nd October 2021, 07:44 AM

If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.

alfaniner · 2nd October 2021, 08:02 AM

tl;dr

RecoveringYuppy · 2nd October 2021, 08:36 AM

The idea that infinities can't be traversed is not well founded.

sackett · 2nd October 2021, 09:27 AM

Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?

Gord_in_Toronto · 2nd October 2021, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?

Oo. Oo. Let me -- God!

And I'm still placing my money on the hare not the tortoise.

Wudang · 2nd October 2021, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

No math or science

Propositional analysis FTW.

P.J. Denyer · 2nd October 2021, 09:51 AM

I can't =/= no one can

There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal.

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.

Well I guess that might explain why gods never turn up to meet the present moment.

It's almost like "infinite" is a purely abstract concept created by humans (like "gods").

But seriously (sorta), isn’t “infinite amount” an oxymoron? Please explain how infinite can be an amount . . .

To save the infinite vs eternal debate, let’s just say time/existence is eternal.

Or we could say eternity is the infinity of time/existence.

Captain_Swoop · 2nd October 2021, 11:54 AM

Is this to do with Zeno again?

Hlafordlaes · 2nd October 2021, 01:04 PM

Time is finite. For example, I do not have time for this. Case closed.

Steve · 2nd October 2021, 01:16 PM

Douglas Adams understood time perfectly well:

“Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.”

catsmate · 2nd October 2021, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?

The Big Crunch of the previous universe.

Steve · 2nd October 2021, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

The Big Crunch of the previous universe.

Did that occur in *time*?

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Did that occur in *time*?

Yes, unless time was "out to lunch"

suren · 2nd October 2021, 03:05 PM

According to present scientific theories, time started when Big Bang happened. But as far as I know no major scientific theory prohibits infinite future.

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by suren

According to present scientific theories, time started when Big Bang happened. But as far as I know no major scientific theory prohibits infinite future.

How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.

Steve · 2nd October 2021, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.

Why does the initial act of beginning require time?

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Why does the initial act of beginning require time?

To claim The Singularity changed it's state of existence (acted) in no time is to say it didn't do it. Doing is an act that takes time (doing time).

suren · 2nd October 2021, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.

Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang.

Steve · 2nd October 2021, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

To claim The Singularity changed it's state of existence (acted) in no time is to say it didn't do it. Doing is an act that takes time (doing time).

Did space also exist? Or did the universe change its state of existence nowhere? Seems that for consistency if time was required then space was equally required. Therefore no big bang because no state of existence was changed.

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by suren

Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang.

Yet the theory seems to have no problem with describing before Bing Bang as being a Singularity. My question is how to change from Singularity to Bing Bang in no time at all?

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Did space also exist? Or did the universe change its state of existence nowhere? Seems that for consistency if time was required then space was equally required. Therefore no big bang because no state of existence was changed.

I'm not the one claiming things didn't exist before Big Bang, or even that there was or wasn't a Big Bang.

Did a Singularity exist before Big Bang? Please don't ask me to define "exist", you do that if you have a problem with the word.

To answer your question - My current "best guess" conclusion is that what exists now has existed eternally in some form or another. The state of existence is constantly changing so it would be no surprise to me if it was much different in the past, in fact it would be a surprise to me if it wasn't. I accept something from something, I don't accept something from nothing. I don't accept time began from no time. I don't accept that time is an actual, substantive thing. Time to me is merely a generic term we apply to actual, substantive things doing things compared to other actual, substantive things doing different things.

Kid Eager · 2nd October 2021, 04:12 PM

Somebody got give The Beginner’s Book of Philosophy for their birthday. Happy Birthday. I look forward to additional threads articulating poorly understood concepts.

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

Somebody got give The Beginner’s Book of Philosophy for their birthday. Happy Birthday. I look forward to additional threads articulating poorly understood concepts.

Ad hominin attacks the best argument you got?

Oh, how droll.

Captain_Swoop · 2nd October 2021, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

I'm not the one claiming things didn't exist before Big Bang, or even that there was or wasn't a Big Bang.

Did a Singularity exist before Big Bang? Please don't ask me to define "exist", you do that if you have a problem with the word.

To answer your question - My current "best guess" conclusion is that what exists now has existed eternally in some form or another. The state of existence is constantly changing so it would be no surprise to me if it was much different in the past, in fact it would be a surprise to me if it wasn't. I accept something from something, I don't accept something from nothing. I don't accept time began from no time. I don't accept that time is an actual, substantive thing. Time to me is merely a generic term we apply to actual, substantive things doing things compared to other actual, substantive things doing different things.

That's the thing. We don't know.

That doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.

ynot · 2nd October 2021, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

That's the thing. We don't know.

That doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.

Rubbish! I get to make up as much stuff as I like, as long as I don't claim it's anything other than made-up "best guess" stuff.

I'm not claiming I know, but it seems some are claiming they do.

My point is it takes time for things to begin to happen. How could time begin to happen before there was time in which time could begin to happen?

Kid Eager · 2nd October 2021, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Ad hominin attacks the best argument you got?

Oh, how droll.

Droll indeed. You appear to believe that:
A. I’m making an argument, and
B. The post fulfills the definition of an ad-hom.

Trebuchet · 2nd October 2021, 06:56 PM

Its a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff.

theprestige · 2nd October 2021, 06:58 PM

The process and rules that we understand as time, that makes up a necessary part of our understanding of and interaction with the reality in which we find ourselves...

... The very rules that we use to exploit time and space tell us those rules break down under certain conditions. Those same rules tell us that those conditions very likely existed in the past from which this reality emerged.

Go back far enough, and things stop making sense according to the rules we have. That's where ynot finds himself.

Obviously something must have been going on before the big bang. We just have no idea what rules govern it, or whether it's even possible for things bound by the rules of spacetime as we understand them can ever make sense of it.

shemp · 2nd October 2021, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time?

"The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.

Since nobody knows what time really is, we also don't know that the act of beginning requires time. Perhaps time is a product of the initial conditions and there was no "before."

shemp · 2nd October 2021, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Did that occur in *time*?

No, it was actually ten minutes late.

MaartenVergu · 3rd October 2021, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Oo. Oo. Let me -- God!

And I'm still placing my money on the hare not the tortoise.

God? Who is talking about a God here? No one. Strange deduction.

MaartenVergu · 3rd October 2021, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

I can't =/= no one can

There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal.

So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.

erlando · 3rd October 2021, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

What are you talking about? Again? I'm new here on the forum. What 'again'?

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

God? Who is talking about a God here? No one. Strange deduction.

What you fail to understand is that what might seem to you as a revalation is in no way unique. Your exact argument has been made a number of times on this forum and it almost always boils down to "god did it". So forum veterans are just jumping the gun.

Dave Rogers · 3rd October 2021, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.

So, you claim that if you don't currently understand anything, nobody can possibly understand it? That's rather arrogant of you.

Dave

P.J. Denyer · 3rd October 2021, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.

No, I don't. But the point clearly went over your head.

MaartenVergu · 3rd October 2021, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

What you fail to understand is that what might seem to you as a revalation is in no way unique. Your exact argument has been made a number of times on this forum and it almost always boils down to "god did it". So forum veterans are just jumping the gun.

What you fail to understand is that it's not because other people made these 'exact arguments' and it boils down to 'god did it' that I'm like these other people. Non sequitur.

erlando · 3rd October 2021, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.

Well, scientists tend to move past the awe phase and move right to the "We don't know but how can we find out"-phase.

erlando · 3rd October 2021, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu

What you fail to understand is that it's not because other people made these 'exact arguments' and it boils down to 'god did it' that I'm like these other people. Non sequitur.

That was not the point of my post.

MaartenVergu · 3rd October 2021, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

So, you claim that if you don't currently understand anything, nobody can possibly understand it? That's rather arrogant of you.

Dave

It's the complete opposite of arrogance. It's recognizing that we all are small in relation to 'the universe' and its mysteries. And no. No God is mentioned here.

2nd October 2021, 07:44 AM	#1
MaartenVergu Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,146	No one can grasp 'time'; Not even a scientist If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality. That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.
	Last edited by MaartenVergu; 2nd October 2021 at 07:53 AM.

2nd October 2021, 08:02 AM	#2
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,594	tl;dr
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

2nd October 2021, 09:27 AM	#4
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,415	Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang?
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

2nd October 2021, 09:41 AM	#5
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,398	Originally Posted by sackett Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang? Oo. Oo. Let me -- God! And I'm still placing my money on the hare not the tortoise.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

2nd October 2021, 09:50 AM	#6
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by MaartenVergu No math or science Propositional analysis FTW.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

2nd October 2021, 08:36 AM	#3
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,487	The idea that infinities can't be traversed is not well founded.

2nd October 2021, 09:51 AM	#7
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,704	I can't =/= no one can There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,704	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

2nd October 2021, 11:48 AM	#8
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by MaartenVergu If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality. That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'. Well I guess that might explain why gods never turn up to meet the present moment. It's almost like "infinite" is a purely abstract concept created by humans (like "gods"). But seriously (sorta), isn’t “infinite amount” an oxymoron? Please explain how infinite can be an amount . . . To save the infinite vs eternal debate, let’s just say time/existence is eternal. Or we could say eternity is the infinity of time/existence.
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. Last edited by ynot; 2nd October 2021 at 12:24 PM.

2nd October 2021, 11:54 AM	#9
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,134	Is this to do with Zeno again?

2nd October 2021, 01:04 PM	#10
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,692	Time is finite. For example, I do not have time for this. Case closed.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

2nd October 2021, 01:16 PM	#11
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 11,220	No one can grasp 'time'; Not even a scientist Douglas Adams understood time perfectly well: “Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.”
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

2nd October 2021, 02:17 PM	#12
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,906	Originally Posted by sackett Okay, here we go again: What was there before the Big Bang? The Big Crunch of the previous universe.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

2nd October 2021, 02:55 PM	#13
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 11,220	Originally Posted by catsmate The Big Crunch of the previous universe. Did that occur in time?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

2nd October 2021, 03:03 PM	#14
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by Steve Did that occur in time? Yes, unless time was "out to lunch"
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

2nd October 2021, 03:05 PM	#15
suren Thinker Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Armenia, Yerevan Posts: 162	According to present scientific theories, time started when Big Bang happened. But as far as I know no major scientific theory prohibits infinite future.
	__________________ Follow those who seek the truth, run away from those who have found it. Last edited by suren; 2nd October 2021 at 03:06 PM.

2nd October 2021, 03:16 PM	#16
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by suren According to present scientific theories, time started when Big Bang happened. But as far as I know no major scientific theory prohibits infinite future. How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time? "The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer.
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

2nd October 2021, 03:19 PM	#17
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 11,220	Originally Posted by ynot How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time? "The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer. Why does the initial act of beginning require time?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

2nd October 2021, 03:23 PM	#18
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by Steve Why does the initial act of beginning require time? To claim The Singularity changed it's state of existence (acted) in no time is to say it didn't do it. Doing is an act that takes time (doing time).
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. Last edited by ynot; 2nd October 2021 at 03:26 PM.

2nd October 2021, 03:26 PM	#19
suren Thinker Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Armenia, Yerevan Posts: 162	Originally Posted by ynot How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time? "The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer. Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang.
	__________________ Follow those who seek the truth, run away from those who have found it. Last edited by suren; 2nd October 2021 at 03:32 PM.

2nd October 2021, 03:30 PM	#20
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 11,220	Originally Posted by ynot To claim The Singularity changed it's state of existence (acted) in no time is to say it didn't do it. Doing is an act that takes time (doing time). Did space also exist? Or did the universe change its state of existence nowhere? Seems that for consistency if time was required then space was equally required. Therefore no big bang because no state of existence was changed.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

2nd October 2021, 03:35 PM	#21
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by suren Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang. Yet the theory seems to have no problem with describing before Bing Bang as being a Singularity. My question is how to change from Singularity to Bing Bang in no time at all?
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. Last edited by ynot; 2nd October 2021 at 04:11 PM.

2nd October 2021, 03:43 PM	#22
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by Steve Did space also exist? Or did the universe change its state of existence nowhere? Seems that for consistency if time was required then space was equally required. Therefore no big bang because no state of existence was changed. I'm not the one claiming things didn't exist before Big Bang, or even that there was or wasn't a Big Bang. Did a Singularity exist before Big Bang? Please don't ask me to define "exist", you do that if you have a problem with the word. To answer your question - My current "best guess" conclusion is that what exists now has existed eternally in some form or another. The state of existence is constantly changing so it would be no surprise to me if it was much different in the past, in fact it would be a surprise to me if it wasn't. I accept something from something, I don't accept something from nothing. I don't accept time began from no time. I don't accept that time is an actual, substantive thing. Time to me is merely a generic term we apply to actual, substantive things doing things compared to other actual, substantive things doing different things.
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. Last edited by ynot; 2nd October 2021 at 04:05 PM.

2nd October 2021, 04:12 PM	#23
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	Somebody got give The Beginner’s Book of Philosophy for their birthday. Happy Birthday. I look forward to additional threads articulating poorly understood concepts.
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

2nd October 2021, 04:18 PM	#24
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by Kid Eager Somebody got give The Beginner’s Book of Philosophy for their birthday. Happy Birthday. I look forward to additional threads articulating poorly understood concepts. Ad hominin attacks the best argument you got? Oh, how droll.
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

2nd October 2021, 04:45 PM	#25
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,134	Originally Posted by ynot I'm not the one claiming things didn't exist before Big Bang, or even that there was or wasn't a Big Bang. Did a Singularity exist before Big Bang? Please don't ask me to define "exist", you do that if you have a problem with the word. To answer your question - My current "best guess" conclusion is that what exists now has existed eternally in some form or another. The state of existence is constantly changing so it would be no surprise to me if it was much different in the past, in fact it would be a surprise to me if it wasn't. I accept something from something, I don't accept something from nothing. I don't accept time began from no time. I don't accept that time is an actual, substantive thing. Time to me is merely a generic term we apply to actual, substantive things doing things compared to other actual, substantive things doing different things. That's the thing. We don't know. That doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.

2nd October 2021, 04:51 PM	#26
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Present Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop That's the thing. We don't know. That doesn't mean you get to make stuff up. Rubbish! I get to make up as much stuff as I like, as long as I don't claim it's anything other than made-up "best guess" stuff. I'm not claiming I know, but it seems some are claiming they do. My point is it takes time for things to begin to happen. How could time begin to happen before there was time in which time could begin to happen?
	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. Last edited by ynot; 2nd October 2021 at 04:58 PM.

2nd October 2021, 05:30 PM	#27
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	Originally Posted by ynot Ad hominin attacks the best argument you got? Oh, how droll. Droll indeed. You appear to believe that: A. I’m making an argument, and B. The post fulfills the definition of an ad-hom.
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,296	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

2nd October 2021, 06:56 PM	#28
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 33,945	Its a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

2nd October 2021, 06:58 PM	#29
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,556	The process and rules that we understand as time, that makes up a necessary part of our understanding of and interaction with the reality in which we find ourselves... ... The very rules that we use to exploit time and space tell us those rules break down under certain conditions. Those same rules tell us that those conditions very likely existed in the past from which this reality emerged. Go back far enough, and things stop making sense according to the rules we have. That's where ynot finds himself. Obviously something must have been going on before the big bang. We just have no idea what rules govern it, or whether it's even possible for things bound by the rules of spacetime as we understand them can ever make sense of it.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

2nd October 2021, 07:00 PM	#30
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 47,692	Originally Posted by ynot How did Big Bang begin to happen before there was time, when the initial act of beginning requires time? "The chicken and egg came simultaneously" isn't a valid answer. Since nobody knows what time really is, we also don't know that the act of beginning requires time. Perhaps time is a product of the initial conditions and there was no "before."
	__________________ Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens. No Klingon would put up with the GOP's ********. When you least expect it... EXPECT IT!

2nd October 2021, 07:01 PM	#31
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 47,692	Originally Posted by Steve Did that occur in time? No, it was actually ten minutes late.
	__________________ Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens. No Klingon would put up with the GOP's ********. When you least expect it... EXPECT IT!

3rd October 2021, 01:13 AM	#32
MaartenVergu Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,146	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Oo. Oo. Let me -- God! And I'm still placing my money on the hare not the tortoise. God? Who is talking about a God here? No one. Strange deduction.

3rd October 2021, 01:14 AM	#33
MaartenVergu Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,146	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer I can't =/= no one can There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal. So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.
	Last edited by MaartenVergu; 3rd October 2021 at 01:19 AM.

3rd October 2021, 01:29 AM	#34
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,270	Originally Posted by MaartenVergu What are you talking about? Again? I'm new here on the forum. What 'again'? Originally Posted by MaartenVergu God? Who is talking about a God here? No one. Strange deduction. What you fail to understand is that what might seem to you as a revalation is in no way unique. Your exact argument has been made a number of times on this forum and it almost always boils down to "god did it". So forum veterans are just jumping the gun.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,270	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

3rd October 2021, 01:29 AM	#35
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,297	Originally Posted by MaartenVergu So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius. So, you claim that if you don't currently understand anything, nobody can possibly understand it? That's rather arrogant of you. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021