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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 13th January 2022, 08:15 PM   #1
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Mod Info Continued from here. As is usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to address points from the previous thread(s).
Posted By:Agatha




Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, the "Trans boogieman" of the gaps argument once again.

Sounds to me like the admin didn't really know the facts of the incident very well. This doesn't reflect well on their concern for a sex crime happening under their supervision, but I'm not sure what other facts I'm supposed to glean from this.
Let me try it like this.

Other than those times when he was having a rendezvous with his sex partner, which bathroom did he use?


Do you have any evidence to support your answer?
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Old 14th January 2022, 05:15 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Let me try it like this.

Other than those times when he was having a rendezvous with his sex partner, which bathroom did he use?


Do you have any evidence to support your answer?
I have no idea. I see no reason to assume someone who identified as a boy was using the women's restroom.

Your comment is an excellent illustration of the boogieman of the gaps approach to this.

Sure, just about everything said by this uninformed, braying mob about this case was wrong, but maybe, just maybe, they were right about this one thing we don't know.
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:56 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I see no reason to assume someone who identified as a boy was using the women's restroom.
I'm guessing you've not yet seen him.
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Old 14th January 2022, 08:28 AM   #4
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Yeah that’s a Look but not exactly a trans slam dunk. I had friends that identified as hot guys who didn’t follow no rules that had similar looks even way back in the 90’s.

ETA also (with apologies to any exceptions) no actual female-identifying person has ever worn a choker that said ‘kitten’ on it unironically without financial incentives.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:56 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah that’s a Look but not exactly a trans slam dunk. I had friends that identified as hot guys who didn’t follow no rules that had similar looks even way back in the 90’s.

ETA also (with apologies to any exceptions) no actual female-identifying person has ever worn a choker that said ‘kitten’ on it unironically without financial incentives.
I think what's obvious is that it's a deliberately feminine gender expression. I can think of a few reasons someone might do that.

1. Pretending to be trans
2. Actually trans
3. Trolling the transphobes.

Any of those are also compatible with using a girls' bathroom, and we have no data to use to be certain whether or not he was doing that. I have expressed why I inferred that he was doing that, but I readily admit it is an inference based on incomplete, and possibly inaccurate, data. It is not confirmed. Perhaps we will learn more if a civil suit goes to trial.

4. This kid is one seriously messed up in the head kid, and doesn't really know what his own motive is. That is compatible with lots of different behaviors, and with the psychological profile summary described by the judge at the sentencing hearing.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:34 PM   #6
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Yeah from the reporting he seems like a real little thinks-he’s-cute bastard. Ingested all the worst of the ‘it’s ok/hilarious to surprise your partners with new sexual acts they didn’t consent to’ stuff that that type of young thinks-he’s-cute bastards talk each other up about. Back in the day I could blame Porky’s or Bill Murray in Caddyshack but I no longer have my finger on the pulse of where they get it from these days.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think what's obvious is that it's a deliberately feminine gender expression.
Precisely; it's the sort of outfit one might expect to see in the girls' room.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can think of a few reasons someone might do that.

1. Pretending to be trans
2. Actually trans
3. Trolling the transphobes.
The individual in question could be gender nonconforming for other reasons, e.g. edgelording IRL, queering gender for the sake of undermining the binary, attracting attention, etc. Any of those reasons are also compatible with using the ladies facilities, though.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Perhaps we will learn more if a civil suit goes to trial.
Indeed. Anyone care to wager on which bathrooms this person was using on the regular?

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Back in the day I could blame Porky’s or Bill Murray in Caddyshack but I no longer have my finger on the pulse of where they get it from these days.
I've heard the www has some explicit streaming content on it somewhere.
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:54 PM   #8
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Honestly I think ST has a point. This guy is clearly some kind of public policy problem. But I don't think it's quite a trans-inclusion problem. I get the "how do we prevent scumbag predators from putting on a dress and walking into a women's restroom" angle, but the longer this particular discussion goes on, the more I think it's a red herring. It adulterates the valid points being made, and does more harm than good to that side of the debate.
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:30 PM   #9
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Came across an interesting pair of essays today.

1) Doing better in arguments about sex, gender, and trans rights

2) You Keep Using This Phrase, "Adult Human Females"

The second one is a rejoinder to the first one, and answers some of the questions posed by gender critical feminists to intersectional feminists. Both of them pose several interesting questions, several of which are likely worth discussing here.
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Old 15th January 2022, 06:29 AM   #10
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Hmmm.... I seem to remember that I too drew attention to that strange (and very obviously taught/learned and institutionalised among a certain rather militant constituency) "adult human females" mantra.

Still, I continue to enjoy the spectacle of progressive, well-informed legislatures and public bodies - all of which have the inconvenient truth of containing a pretty representative proportion of females - enacting laws and policies which give proper, proportionate rights and protections to transgender people (including, yes, transmen/transboys) in a careful and watchful manner. Excellent stuff.

Meanwhile, the toxic anti-debate continues apace in these threads
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Old 15th January 2022, 10:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Hmmm.... I seem to remember that I too drew attention to that strange (and very obviously taught/learned and institutionalised among a certain rather militant constituency) "adult human females" mantra.
I seem to remember you coming up with a fairly unworkable alternative definition in lieu of the one generally seen in dictionaries of common usage. No shame in that, it's a rather sticky wicket to reconceptualize the meaning of a term which dates back to Old English.
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Old 15th January 2022, 01:13 PM   #12
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The Websterian faction can indeed be rather stubborn.
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Old 15th January 2022, 01:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Hmmm.... I seem to remember that I too drew attention to that strange (and very obviously taught/learned and institutionalised among a certain rather militant constituency) "adult human females" mantra.

Still, I continue to enjoy the spectacle of progressive, well-informed legislatures and public bodies - all of which have the inconvenient truth of containing a pretty representative proportion of females - enacting laws and policies which give proper, proportionate rights and protections to transgender people (including, yes, transmen/transboys) in a careful and watchful manner. Excellent stuff.

Meanwhile, the toxic anti-debate continues apace in these threads
Know what? I’m sick of you granting god-like status to governments whose only motive is re-election and who will pander to any minority to pick up a few more votes.
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Old 15th January 2022, 01:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Came across an interesting pair of essays today.

1) Doing better in arguments about sex, gender, and trans rights

2) You Keep Using This Phrase, "Adult Human Females"

The second one is a rejoinder to the first one, and answers some of the questions posed by gender critical feminists to intersectional feminists. Both of them pose several interesting questions, several of which are likely worth discussing here.
I confess I only skimmed both essays, but I read enough to recognize a familiar pattern in the second one. The basic pattern is to criticize both the original argument, and the people who made it, but provide nothing of substance in substitute. They say of course the original is wrong, and they would know that if they weren't so stupid and/or bigoted, but the rejoinder never presents anything about what they actually believe, beyond raw assertion.

In particular I was reading her comments about "gender", and saying that isn't what makes her a woman, and insulting the phrase "gender identity" as if it were some sort of artificial construct from the other side.

But that's how it goes. There are constant attempts to get to a common understanding, and constant assertions, usually expressed in a manner dripping with condescension despite the lack of substance. Men can have babies, and if you disagree, or even if just want to clarify what is meant by the assertion, you are an idiot, a bigot, or both.
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Old 15th January 2022, 02:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm guessing you've not yet seen him.
Yes, you're making the same wild leap of speculation the mob did. Congrats.
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Old 15th January 2022, 02:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Honestly I think ST has a point. This guy is clearly some kind of public policy problem. But I don't think it's quite a trans-inclusion problem. I get the "how do we prevent scumbag predators from putting on a dress and walking into a women's restroom" angle, but the longer this particular discussion goes on, the more I think it's a red herring. It adulterates the valid points being made, and does more harm than good to that side of the debate.
The point is made earlier is that this red herring really does the community a disservice.

How does someone who has recently been credibly accused of a serious sex offense commit a similar crime again? It's good that the school district separated the boy from his victim, but clearly something went amiss that he was unsupervised and was able to victimize someone else. What protocols are in place, are they adequate, and were they followed?

All very good questions that probably should have been explored if the mob wasn't too busy on an anti-trans wild goose chase.
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Old 15th January 2022, 03:08 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, you're making the same wild leap of speculation the mob did.
The mob also referenced the trans umbrella comic to see whether gender nonconformity should be included? Well, then, hats off to the mob for checking what trans rights activists actually believe so as to avoid leaping to any unwarranted conclusions.
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Old 15th January 2022, 03:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Came across an interesting pair of essays today.

1) Doing better in arguments about sex, gender, and trans rights

2) You Keep Using This Phrase, "Adult Human Females"

The second one is a rejoinder to the first one, and answers some of the questions posed by gender critical feminists to intersectional feminists. Both of them pose several interesting questions, several of which are likely worth discussing here.

That second essay is awful. Choice quotes:

I accept part of the description you offer, with the caveat that I do not think that “sex” is a natural category that pre-exists patriarchy but one that is imposed upon people through patriarchy.

For me, this statement alone disqualifies the essay as worthy of serious discussion except as to whether the author (and many of these TRAs) is that deluded or just disingenuous.


The phrase “trans women are women” is not really a claim about how someone “identifies” at all; it is a claim about how trans women are treated...
This is complete nonsense. If TW were treated like women, there'd be no need for the phrase. Moreover, (I realize I've repeated this ad nauseum), TW will never be broadly treated like actual women for the obvious reason that they do not have female anatomy/can never fulfill that reproductive role.

The quote above also contradicts the claims by many TRAs that being trans is based on self-ID. Indeed the author does that as well later in the essay:
by asking: Do you consider trans women authorities on our own experiences of socialization and identification?

What's curious there (apart from the obvious that being female is not an identity) is that the author (& many TRAs) are pretty keen to deny actual girls/women the right to call themselves what they want.
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Old 15th January 2022, 04:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, you're making the same wild leap of speculation the mob did. Congrats.
We should just rename the Scotsman fallacy "no true transwoman"
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Old 15th January 2022, 05:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Came across an interesting pair of essays today.

1) Doing better in arguments about sex, gender, and trans rights

2) You Keep Using This Phrase, "Adult Human Females"

The second one is a rejoinder to the first one, and answers some of the questions posed by gender critical feminists to intersectional feminists. Both of them pose several interesting questions, several of which are likely worth discussing here.
I should have added that essay 1 is well done and well worth reading by lurkers/those who have not spent much time thinking about the issue or wondering what about trans activism has upset a good number of women enough to speak up.
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Old 15th January 2022, 05:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
This is complete nonsense. If TW were treated like women, there'd be no need for the phrase.
I think it's fair to suppose that the author intends us to understand "trans women are women" to be a statement about how trans women ought to be treated by others.

Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
TW will never be broadly treated like actual women for the obvious reason that they do not have female anatomy/can never fulfill that reproductive role.
An individual with CAIS will still be treated like a woman despite being infertile, because she is perceived to be female by all concerned. Apologies for mixing intersex issues in here, but it seems an apt analogy to those who pass for the opposite sex in (non-sexual) social situations.

Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Choice quotes
I meant to share one of the (IMO) choicest quotes earlier. Here it is:
Quote:
Stock et al believe that they can use “female” as a predicate to define “woman” in ways that will exclude trans women, but trans women will (I would have thought self-evidently) then simply contest their definition of “female,” on the same exact grounds as we contested the definition of “woman.”
By this point, I've come around to the idea that problematizing conventional language without providing a clarifying alternative is a deliberately cynical move.
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Old 15th January 2022, 06:35 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think it's fair to suppose that the author intends us to understand "trans women are women" to be a statement about how trans women ought to be treated by others.

An individual with CAIS will still be treated like a woman despite being infertile, because she is perceived to be female by all concerned. Apologies for mixing intersex issues in here, but it seems an apt analogy to those who pass for the opposite sex in (non-sexual) social situations.
Yes, I don't think mixing in DSDs is appropriate here- since TWs largely don't have DSDs. But I think you're missing my bigger point here. It's not how well they can pass (though they largely don't), it's that males have a strong urge to reproduce - once they know someone is non-female, they're largely going to lose interest. & those that don't (lose interest), are - shall we say - less likely to pass on their genes. In that regard, even if the term "woman" were to change, TW would still be seen as a less desirable choice.


Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I meant to share one of the (IMO) choicest quotes earlier. Here it is: By this point, I've come around to the idea that problematizing conventional language without providing a clarifying alternative is a deliberately cynical move.
Yes - And that was another sign that is a deeply flawed misogynistic movement. It's disturbing to see Rachel Levine listed as the first female of her rank, that current jeopardy champ being listed as longest reigning female, the recent golden globe TW winner claiming to be female, etc.

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Old 15th January 2022, 09:25 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Men can have babies, and if you disagree, or even if just want to clarify what is meant by the assertion, you are an idiot, a bigot, or both.

Yes, some men - which is to say some transmen - can have babies.

As for "clarification", all that needs to be said is that transgender identity is a valid, lived condition. And therefore, for example, transmen are men. Transmen are not females pretending to be men. Transmen are not delusional or defective females whose mental illness makes them think they're men.

And in the present day, anyone who wishes to debate or deny this point is by no means necessarily "an idiot, a bigot, or both" (nice strawman though). However, people holding that point of view are likely to be ignorant and misinformed. Science and progressive governments/legislatures are - fortunately - capable of a better and deeper understanding.


Ain't it strange how large swathes of the good old general public used to believe - sincerely believe - that black people were by definition inferior. And how large swathes of the good old general public used to believe that gay people were either deluded or mentally ill. By 2040, those of us still kicking around will note how strange it was that large swathes of the general public used to hold views like "transwomen are men in skirts" or "transmen are just females pretending to be men".
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Old 15th January 2022, 09:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
. . . transgender identity is a valid, lived condition.
Agreed

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And therefore, for example, transmen are men.
As a matter of logic, that does not follow, even given the following:

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Transmen are not females pretending to be men.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Transmen are not delusional or defective females whose mental illness makes them think they're men.
Agreed.
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Old 15th January 2022, 11:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes, some men - which is to say some transmen - can have babies.
Great. Wonderful. It's not the historic definition of "men", but whatever. "Men" is just a word. We can change definitions. Very well.

But....here's where that runs into some difficulty, with the "clarification" part.


Quote:
As for "clarification", all that needs to be said is that transgender identity is a valid, lived condition.
Ok. Being transgender is a valid, lived, condition. I'm going to switch my gender example, just because it will be easier to describe what I'm thinking.

A person with functioning penis and testicles can identify as a woman. That's a valid, lived, condition. Ok. So far, so good. However, what if that person identifies as someone who can have a baby? Well that certainly isn't a valid, lived, condition. And, jumping in before someone says something stupid, it isn't specifically about fertility. It's about being the sex and sharing all or most of the anatomy that would make having babies possible. I think in this thread, we can still say "female". If you have functioning penis and testicles, you can have an identity as a woman and that is a valid, lived, condition, but an identity as a female would not be a valid, lived condition.

We're all on the same page, aren't we? There's nothing controversial above, is there?

The author of the rejoinder essay posted earlier recognized the problem of doing that. If we stop using the word "woman" to mean "female", there will still be people who insist on treating females different than males, instead of treating men differently than women. People will still insist that biological sex matters, and so the woman who wrote the essay declares that they will fight back against any attempt to have any word that would imply that there is some significant shared traits among cisgender women and transgender men, that is different than the shared traits among cisgender men and transgender women.

Unfortunately for her wishes, that division along biological sex is still significant, and try as she might, she won't be able to convince people to ignore that division. Not only will they not ignore that division, they will insist on naming it.

Quote:
And therefore, for example, transmen are men. Transmen are not females pretending to be men. Transmen are not delusional or defective females whose mental illness makes them think they're men.
Fine. Although, there's some more definition that we can discuss, but nothing we haven't been through before. I don't object to the above.

Quote:
And in the present day, anyone who wishes to debate or deny this point is by no means necessarily "an idiot, a bigot, or both" (nice strawman though). However, people holding that point of view are likely to be ignorant and misinformed.
Hmmm....they aren't idiots, but they are ignorant and misinformed. And saying "idiot" is a strawman.


Oh, wait. You didn't say that they are ignorant and misinformed. You said that they are likely to be ignorant and misinformed. So it is possible that the people who say that might possibly not be ignorant and misinformed. I'm glad that's cleared up. (Emphasis modified from original.)

ETA: And importantly, it's hard to see which point "that point of view" was meant to refer to. Was it the point of view that transmen are females pretending to be men, or the point of view that men can't have babies? Or that transmen aren't men? There was some sort of shift there.

Quote:
Science and progressive governments/legislatures are - fortunately - capable of a better and deeper understanding.
I'm not sure "science" has weighed in on the subject completely. I think science agrees partially with your points, and you want to carry the general agreement beyond what science actually says. For example, what does science say about where Lia Thomas should swim, where Terry Miller should run, or which section of the spa Darren Merager ought to use? What does science say about who gets to go into the girls' bathroom? Does science have anything to say about whether it would be appropriate to hang a new sign that says "females", and only allow females into that space?

Quote:
Ain't it strange how large swathes of the good old general public used to believe - sincerely believe - that black people were by definition inferior. And how large swathes of the good old general public used to believe that gay people were either deluded or mentally ill. By 2040, those of us still kicking around will note how strange it was that large swathes of the general public used to hold views like "transwomen are men in skirts" or "transmen are just females pretending to be men".
*yawn*. See previous responses.
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Old 16th January 2022, 05:04 AM   #26
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
We should just rename the Scotsman fallacy "no true transwoman"
There's an unambiguous demarcation as to whether this boy was requesting to be treated as a girl or was otherwise claiming to be a girl for the purposes of using gender segregated spaces. Either he was or he wasn't. This is one example where there isn't much grey zone. There's a meaningful distinction between a boy gender-bending in their clothing choices and someone presenting themselves as a trans girl and requesting the appropriate recognition.

There has yet to be a shred of evidence that this boy did so. Occasionally showing up to school wearing girl's clothing doesn't mean he was openly using the women's restroom, locker rooms, or otherwise meaningfully identifying as a girl for any way that matters in context of this bathroom freakout.

The time to figure out if this kid was using or abusing a trans-inclusive policy to access the women's restroom is probably before going on crusade, not after.
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Old 16th January 2022, 06:49 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's an unambiguous demarcation as to whether this boy was requesting to be treated as a girl or was otherwise claiming to be a girl for the purposes of using gender segregated spaces. Either he was or he wasn't. This is one example where there isn't much grey zone. There's a meaningful distinction between a boy gender-bending in their clothing choices and someone presenting themselves as a trans girl and requesting the appropriate recognition.

There has yet to be a shred of evidence that this boy did so. Occasionally showing up to school wearing girl's clothing doesn't mean he was openly using the women's restroom, locker rooms, or otherwise meaningfully identifying as a girl for any way that matters in context of this bathroom freakout.

The time to figure out if this kid was using or abusing a trans-inclusive policy to access the women's restroom is probably before going on crusade, not after.

Absolutely.

And in any case.... irrespective of the above, this boy's offending clearly had nothing whatsoever to do with the "Reefer Madness" hysteria tropes wrt male perverts abusing the notion of transgender rights to enter the women's/girls' bathrooms to commit offences against whichever females happened to be in the bathroom at that time.

No: this boy was going into the girls' bathroom, by invitation, to have (what started as entirely consensual) sex with a girl. And the sex got out of hand and turned into a criminal act. Nothing to do with the "transgirl/transwoman bogeyman" caricature so beloved of certain......"gender critical" people.
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Old 16th January 2022, 08:22 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
As for "clarification", all that needs to be said is that transgender identity is a valid, lived condition.
Can anyone think of an example of an invalid lived condition?

An old friend of mine lives with Tourette syndromeWP. Valid or not?

Another old friend of mine lives with bipolar disorderWP. Valid or not?

Several old friends live with various degrees of PTSDWP. Valid or not?

If the idea of validity is going to do so much work, it would be interesting to know how far it goes.
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Old 16th January 2022, 08:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There has yet to be a shred of evidence that this boy did so.
For some definition of "shred".
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Old 16th January 2022, 12:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
As for "clarification", all that needs to be said is that transgender identity is a valid, lived condition.
Jesus Christ not this again.

"Valid lived condition" doesn't clarify anything. It offers no guidance on policy or social convention.

Homosexuality is a valid lived condition.

Pedophilia is a valid lived condition.

Both of these are valid lived conditions. But public policy and social convention for each are wildly different. Hell, my own personal approach to each is wildly different. I think one should be embraced and normalized. I think the other is a tragic affliction that should be treated and accommodated where possible, but never acted on.

But Punxsatawny "Valid Lived Condition" Phil has poked his head up and seen his shadow, so I guess we'll have six more installments of this thread now.

---

Valid lived condition has to be the most empty-headed argument from the trans-inclusionary side. It's like the apotheosis of the whole approach of draining words of all their meaning, under the mistaken impression that this somehow makes the argument stronger, rather than worthless.
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Old 16th January 2022, 12:14 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pedophilia is a valid lived condition.
I don't expect LJ to concur.

Dunno how far his idiosyncratic idea of validity goes, but probably not that far.
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Old 16th January 2022, 01:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't expect LJ to concur.

Dunno how far his idiosyncratic idea of validity goes, but probably not that far.
I wonder if it goes as far as a male identifying as someone who can have a baby. That seems invalid to me, but I hesitate to speak for others.
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Old 16th January 2022, 01:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wonder if it goes as far as a male identifying as someone who can have a baby. That seems invalid to me, but I hesitate to speak for others.
But I would be even more interested in finding out LondonJohn's perspective on what science has to say about where Lia Thomas should swim.
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Old 16th January 2022, 05:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wonder if it goes as far as a male identifying as someone who can have a baby. That seems invalid to me, but I hesitate to speak for others.
Despite assurances from TRAs that they would not conflate sex and gender, we're seeing more TWs listed or IDing as female (as I noted a few posts up). Some TRAs refer to having babies as 'cis privilege' and/or demanding that uterus transplants be made available to TW

Note - same ogre involved in getting Vancouver rape crisis center defunded for not accepting males.
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Old 16th January 2022, 06:34 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But I would be even more interested in finding out LondonJohn's perspective on what science has to say about where Lia Thomas should swim.
Actually at this point I would be even more interested in finding out LJ's perspective on pedophilia as a valid lived condition, and what it can tell us about public policy regarding transsexuality.

I predict a flurry of personal attacks, "cleverly" disguised.
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Old 17th January 2022, 03:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes, some men - which is to say some transmen - can have babies.

As for "clarification", all that needs to be said is that transgender identity is a valid, lived condition. And therefore, for example, transmen are men. Transmen are not females pretending to be men. Transmen are not delusional or defective females whose mental illness makes them think they're men.

And in the present day, anyone who wishes to debate or deny this point is by no means necessarily "an idiot, a bigot, or both" (nice strawman though). However, people holding that point of view are likely to be ignorant and misinformed. Science and progressive governments/legislatures are - fortunately - capable of a better and deeper understanding.


Ain't it strange how large swathes of the good old general public used to believe - sincerely believe - that black people were by definition inferior. And how large swathes of the good old general public used to believe that gay people were either deluded or mentally ill. By 2040, those of us still kicking around will note how strange it was that large swathes of the general public used to hold views like "transwomen are men in skirts" or "transmen are just females pretending to be men".
No, outside of magical thinking, transmen are not men.

Trans activism's crude misappropriation of black, gay and lesbian liberation is one of the ugliest aspects of its unprincipled, emotionally manipulative politicking.
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Old 17th January 2022, 07:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Note - same ogre involved in getting Vancouver rape crisis center defunded for not accepting males.
You make it sound like they were forced to close up shop. They have an annual budget of over a million dollars, and lost their $35k grant from City of Vancouver. They also (eventually) won the case against them brought by Kimberly Nixon (where they were arguing that she was not a suitable volunteer rape crisis peer counselor, as she didn’t entirely qualify as a peer).

This is all in line with my opinion that we are all still shaking out what makes sense and it’ll eventually slope off to something reasonably equitable.

To be clear, it’s my opinion that while trans women certainly need crisis support, there is nothing at all wrong with having some shelters among many that cater to cis women only. If there was a severe shortage of accessible trans inclusive shelters it would be a different story. I do feel that losing city funding is an acceptable consequence, for now. I also feel that harassment campaigns against such shelters are utterly misplaced and deeply reprehensible.

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Old 17th January 2022, 08:00 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For some definition of "shred".
Probably more than what was presented at the time. Maybe standards are just different when you're part of a mob.

Wouldn't you agree that the vigorousness of the right wing freakout over this case does not seem to be appropriately grounded in fact? They seem to be extremely mad about something that does not seem to be sufficiently established to me.
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Old 17th January 2022, 08:02 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
You make it sound like they were forced to close up shop. They have an annual budget of over a million dollars, and lost their $35k grant from City of Vancouver. They also (eventually) won the case against them brought by Kimberly Nixon (where they were arguing that a trans woman was not a suitable rape crisis counselor).

This is all in line with my opinion that we are all still shaking out what makes sense and it’ll eventually slope off to something reasonably equitable.
It's almost as if these TERFs are not exactly arguing in good faith. Surely there's no personal animus at play here.
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Old 17th January 2022, 08:48 AM   #40
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Well, some loud and/or angry TRA's want things that are arguably unreasonable, therefore the whole trans movement is antifeminist.

To the argument’s credit, at least a couple of the over-reachers are actually in politics and have wrangled a little influence.

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