Mozilla's founder on it taking bitcoins

Wudang · 5th January 2022, 10:53 AM

https://twitter.com/jwz/status/1478022085737803776?s=20

Quote:

'm sure that whoever runs this account has no idea who I am, but I founded @mozilla and I'm here to say **** you and **** this. Everyone involved in the project should be witheringly ashamed of this decision to partner with planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters.

And on cryptocurrencies generally
https://www.jwz.org/blog/tag/dunning-krugerrands/

Quote:

What have these Libertarian crypto-bro idealists built?

The cryptocurrency industry, whose business model would seem unrealistic and ham-handed if it was a villain on Captain Planet: they manufacture only POLLUTION, nothing else, and they turn that into money.

They call it a "currency" but the only thing you can do with it is pay ransom after your computer was hacked! You can't even use it to buy porn!

And make no mistake, if you can't use a thing to buy porn, that thing is not a currency.
Cryptocurrencies are Itchy & Scratchy Money.

theprestige · 5th January 2022, 10:54 AM

JWZ. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

Wudang · 5th January 2022, 10:57 AM

Someone else retweeted him on twitter and I checked what he posted and followed him. I'd almost forgtten him.

Wudang · 5th January 2022, 10:58 AM

And Peter Linss agrees

Quote:

Hey @mozilla
, I expect you don’t know me either, but I designed Gecko, the engine your browser is built on. And I’m 100% with @jwz
on this.

What. The. Actual. ****.

You were meant to be better than this.

theprestige · 5th January 2022, 11:03 AM

TBH, "founder of Mozilla" doesn't have anywhere near the authoritative cachet with me that it did 20+ years ago. When he cashed out in the late 90s and opened a nightclub in San Francisco, that was interesting to me as a budding IT/IS professional.

Wudang · 5th January 2022, 11:06 AM

Fair comment.

plague311 · 5th January 2022, 01:58 PM

People do know they don't have to invest in crypto currency, right?

Olmstead · 5th January 2022, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

People do know they don't have to invest in crypto currency, right?

Weird point. I don't have to invest in fossil fuels either. Or the fast food industry. Or the Catholic church.

plague311 · 5th January 2022, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

Weird point. I don't have to invest in fossil fuels either. Or the fast food industry. Or the Catholic church.

Yet, you do. All of them massive pollution creators and most have caused more damage to humans than crypto.

I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.

Olmstead · 5th January 2022, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

Yet, you do. All of them massive pollution creators and most have caused more damage to humans than crypto.

I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.

What do you mean? People complain about fossil fuels all the time. There is no special hate reserved for crypto. It's just another thing that's harmful for the environment, and I can go on about it just as I can go on about the meat industry.

plague311 · 5th January 2022, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

What do you mean? People complain about fossil fuels all the time. There is no special hate reserved for crypto. It's just another thing that's harmful for the environment, and I can go on about it just as I can go on about the meat industry.

Ok, are you actually doing anything to make a difference or just complaining about it? Crypto is currently working on decreasing its environmental impact. Are you working on decreasing yours?

Olmstead · 5th January 2022, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

Ok, are you actually doing anything to make a difference or just complaining about it? Crypto is currently working on decreasing its environmental impact. Are you working on decreasing yours?

Well, yes, but that's not really the point. Large changes are necessary, and large changes require a majority of people to be on board. If enough people complain, others might take notice.

zooterkin · 5th January 2022, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

JWZ. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

I corresponded with him briefly about IMAP4 implementation for work, IIRC, many years ago. Not someone who leaves you in any doubt about their opinion.

SuburbanTurkey · 5th January 2022, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

TBH, "founder of Mozilla" doesn't have anywhere near the authoritative cachet with me that it did 20+ years ago. When he cashed out in the late 90s and opened a nightclub in San Francisco, that was interesting to me as a budding IT/IS professional.

Sure, and you don't really need any special vantage point or insight to see that cypto is a dumpster fire. Nothing about this comment is untrue, but it is neither particularly interesting or unique.

Hell, I imagine many of the crypto people would broadly agree, they just don't care because they hope they are one of the lucky ones that wins at the casino.

theprestige · 5th January 2022, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Sure, and you don't really need any special vantage point or insight to see that cypto is a dumpster fire. Nothing about this comment is untrue, but it is neither particularly interesting or unique.

Hell, I imagine many of the crypto people would broadly agree, they just don't care because they hope they are one of the lucky ones that wins at the casino.

Exactly. For all I know, JWZ's opinion is just knee-jerk anti-crypto curmudgeonry, completely unrelated to, and uninformed by, his technical background.

catsmate · 6th January 2022, 02:44 AM

Nice to see more people calling the crypto-nuts on their Dunning-Krugerrands.

plague311 · 6th January 2022, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Nice to see more people calling the crypto-nuts on their Dunning-Krugerrands.

Absolutely, it's definitely making a huge difference. Crypto is almost gone now.

SuburbanTurkey · 6th January 2022, 09:22 AM

Business is booming:

Quote:

Crypto scammers took a record $14 billion in 2021

Scammers around the world took home a record $14 billion in cryptocurrency in 2021, thanks in large part to the rise of DeFi.
Losses from crypto-related crime rose 79% from 2020.
Cryptocurrency theft rose 516% from 2020, to $3.2 billion worth of cryptocurrency. Of this total, 72% of stolen funds were taken from DeFi protocols.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/06/cryp...box=1641459762

plague311 · 6th January 2022, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Business is booming:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/06/cryp...box=1641459762

Terrible. I'm happy there's no scamming that goes on anywhere else and that this is completely unique to crypto. Anyway, I'll let you all bitch about it. Cheers.

SuburbanTurkey · 6th January 2022, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Terrible. I'm happy there's no scamming that goes on anywhere else and that this is completely unique to crypto. Anyway, I'll let you all bitch about it. Cheers.

Tell me how you really feel, don't be shy

Checkmite · 7th January 2022, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.

Because it is quite literally a pyramid scheme, and we should be bad-talking those things any time they're brought up.

If a friend of mine mentions Avon or Herbalife, I explain to them what pyramid schemes are and how they work, and that I cannot recommend strongly enough to not get involved with them, even experimentally. Every single time. Sometimes I convince them and a lot of times I don't, but I always make the effort and I will continue to do so.

Same thing with crypto and NFTs and things like this. It's a scam. A tulip mania. A star-name registry. I'm not going to simply content myself with personally avoiding the trap and silently watching other people fall into it.

theprestige · 7th January 2022, 10:03 PM

Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.

a_unique_person · 7th January 2022, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Because it is quite literally a pyramid scheme, and we should be bad-talking those things any time they're brought up.

If a friend of mine mentions Avon or Herbalife, I explain to them what pyramid schemes are and how they work, and that I cannot recommend strongly enough to not get involved with them, even experimentally. Every single time. Sometimes I convince them and a lot of times I don't, but I always make the effort and I will continue to do so.

Same thing with crypto and NFTs and things like this. It's a scam. A tulip mania. A star-name registry. I'm not going to simply content myself with personally avoiding the trap and silently watching other people fall into it.

It's all a pyramid scheme. It's just a matter of how convincing it is.

psionl0 · 8th January 2022, 12:15 AM

One of the nicer things about a new crypto thread is that you can recycle all of the ancient arguments from the bitcoin thread.

The Great Zaganza · 8th January 2022, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

One of the nicer things about a new crypto thread is that you can recycle all of the ancient arguments from the bitcoin thread.

.. which is more environmentally friendly than crypto mining.

gnome · 8th January 2022, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.

...and therefore people that want to prevent the damage should do what?

SuburbanTurkey · 8th January 2022, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.

Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.

Wudang · 8th January 2022, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.

As the JWZ link says "They promised us Bond villains with lasers and unhackable data centers in atmosphere-evacuated vaults in international waters. What they gave us was the banality of day-traders, armchair finance-bros with laser-eye avatars, who are unable to give up on the grift because the grift requires that they must always find the greater fool"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

theprestige · 8th January 2022, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.

If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.

Wudang · 8th January 2022, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.

Well his point is basically that there are other values than money. If that doesn't work for you then I guess that's your choice.

Olmstead · 8th January 2022, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on.

JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.

That's an argument for doing anything, no matter how unethical, as long as it brings you profit and is legal.

Some companies don't do that, I think.

gnome · 8th January 2022, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.

Individually, could be. But if many people refuse to be paid in bitcoin it will lower its usefulness, and thus its value, reducing the incentive to waste electricity mining for it.

CORed · 8th January 2022, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

https://twitter.com/jwz/status/1478022085737803776?s=20

And on cryptocurrencies generally
https://www.jwz.org/blog/tag/dunning-krugerrands/

I am waiting for the invevitable Bitcoin crash. The only question is whether it will be big enough to take the world economy down along with Bitcoin. I think it's quite likely that it will be.

psionl0 · 8th January 2022, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

I am waiting for the invevitable Bitcoin crash. The only question is whether it will be big enough to take the world economy down along with Bitcoin. I think it's quite likely that it will be.

Claims about the imminent demise of bitcoin (this time for sure!) belong in the other thread.

OTOH I don't expect to see a single word about the technology in this thread.

theprestige · 8th January 2022, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

That's an argument for doing anything, no matter how unethical, as long as it brings you profit and is legal.

Some companies don't do that, I think.

So? Does coming across as an eco scold ever actually work?The energy requirements of crypto mining are well known. The current Mozilla leadership are making an informed decision. Does JWZ really think they hold the Memory of Dear Founder so highly that if he rants at them they'll change their minds?

Mozilla doesn't run on happy thoughts and rainbows. They need money. You think maybe they've already considered the trade offs? Already weighed Greta Thunberg's future against the present circumstances of their employees and their current operations?

Do you think less Mozilla is a worthwhile price to pay, for some drop in the bucket of global emissions reduction? Do you think the people who work there would agree?

Olmstead · 8th January 2022, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

So? Does coming across as an eco scold ever actually work?The energy requirements of crypto mining are well known. The current Mozilla leadership are making an informed decision. Does JWZ really think they hold the Memory of Dear Founder so highly that if he rants at them they'll change their minds?

Mozilla doesn't run on happy thoughts and rainbows. They need money. You think maybe they've already considered the trade offs? Already weighed Greta Thunberg's future against the present circumstances of their employees and their current operations?

Do you think less Mozilla is a worthwhile price to pay, for some drop in the bucket of global emissions reduction? Do you think the people who work there would agree?

From a cynical point of view, bad PR can make a company rethink its policies. There's also something to be said for the benefits of good PR. More donations might start pouring in if they take a stand.

Is it because Mozilla are non-profit? I don't think that absolves them of everything.

Wudang · 9th January 2022, 12:59 PM

Some numbers regarding Etherium costs. https://www.usenix.org/publications/...ine/web3-fraud

"So a mere second of Ethereum’s virtual machine costs 25 times more than a month of my far more capable EC2 instance. Or could buy me several Raspberry Pis."

Dr.Sid · 9th January 2022, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Some numbers regarding Etherium costs. https://www.usenix.org/publications/...ine/web3-fraud

"So a mere second of Ethereum’s virtual machine costs 25 times more than a month of my far more capable EC2 instance. Or could buy me several Raspberry Pis."

Etherium ? What's that ? It's not mentioned in the article.

RecoveringYuppy · 9th January 2022, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Etherium ? What's that ? It's not mentioned in the article.

Is it really useful to pick on a one character misspelling? Especially when it's spelled correct immediately afterward?

Dr.Sid · 9th January 2022, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Is it really useful to pick on a one character misspelling? Especially when it's spelled correct immediately afterward?

But that doesn't make sense. The article is about web3, not Ethereum itself.

5th January 2022, 10:53 AM	#1
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Mozilla's founder on it taking bitcoins https://twitter.com/jwz/status/1478022085737803776?s=20 Quote: 'm sure that whoever runs this account has no idea who I am, but I founded @mozilla and I'm here to say ** you and ** this. Everyone involved in the project should be witheringly ashamed of this decision to partner with planet-incinerating Ponzi grifters. And on cryptocurrencies generally https://www.jwz.org/blog/tag/dunning-krugerrands/ Quote: What have these Libertarian crypto-bro idealists built? The cryptocurrency industry, whose business model would seem unrealistic and ham-handed if it was a villain on Captain Planet: they manufacture only POLLUTION, nothing else, and they turn that into money. They call it a "currency" but the only thing you can do with it is pay ransom after your computer was hacked! You can't even use it to buy porn! And make no mistake, if you can't use a thing to buy porn, that thing is not a currency. Cryptocurrencies are Itchy & Scratchy Money.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

5th January 2022, 10:54 AM	#2
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,656	JWZ. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

5th January 2022, 10:57 AM	#3
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Someone else retweeted him on twitter and I checked what he posted and followed him. I'd almost forgtten him.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

5th January 2022, 10:58 AM	#4
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	And Peter Linss agrees Quote: Hey @mozilla , I expect you don’t know me either, but I designed Gecko, the engine your browser is built on. And I’m 100% with @jwz on this. What. The. Actual. ****. You were meant to be better than this.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

5th January 2022, 11:03 AM	#5
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,656	TBH, "founder of Mozilla" doesn't have anywhere near the authoritative cachet with me that it did 20+ years ago. When he cashed out in the late 90s and opened a nightclub in San Francisco, that was interesting to me as a budding IT/IS professional.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

5th January 2022, 11:06 AM	#6
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Fair comment.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

5th January 2022, 01:58 PM	#7
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,509	People do know they don't have to invest in crypto currency, right?
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

5th January 2022, 02:07 PM	#8
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944	Originally Posted by plague311 People do know they don't have to invest in crypto currency, right? Weird point. I don't have to invest in fossil fuels either. Or the fast food industry. Or the Catholic church.
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944

5th January 2022, 02:32 PM	#9
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,509	Originally Posted by Olmstead Weird point. I don't have to invest in fossil fuels either. Or the fast food industry. Or the Catholic church. Yet, you do. All of them massive pollution creators and most have caused more damage to humans than crypto. I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

5th January 2022, 02:40 PM	#10
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944	Originally Posted by plague311 Yet, you do. All of them massive pollution creators and most have caused more damage to humans than crypto. I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me. What do you mean? People complain about fossil fuels all the time. There is no special hate reserved for crypto. It's just another thing that's harmful for the environment, and I can go on about it just as I can go on about the meat industry.
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944

5th January 2022, 02:49 PM	#11
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,509	Originally Posted by Olmstead What do you mean? People complain about fossil fuels all the time. There is no special hate reserved for crypto. It's just another thing that's harmful for the environment, and I can go on about it just as I can go on about the meat industry. Ok, are you actually doing anything to make a difference or just complaining about it? Crypto is currently working on decreasing its environmental impact. Are you working on decreasing yours?
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

5th January 2022, 03:12 PM	#12
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944	Originally Posted by plague311 Ok, are you actually doing anything to make a difference or just complaining about it? Crypto is currently working on decreasing its environmental impact. Are you working on decreasing yours? Well, yes, but that's not really the point. Large changes are necessary, and large changes require a majority of people to be on board. If enough people complain, others might take notice.
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944

5th January 2022, 03:55 PM	#13
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,238	Originally Posted by theprestige JWZ. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. I corresponded with him briefly about IMAP4 implementation for work, IIRC, many years ago. Not someone who leaves you in any doubt about their opinion.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

5th January 2022, 05:22 PM	#14
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,226	Originally Posted by theprestige TBH, "founder of Mozilla" doesn't have anywhere near the authoritative cachet with me that it did 20+ years ago. When he cashed out in the late 90s and opened a nightclub in San Francisco, that was interesting to me as a budding IT/IS professional. Sure, and you don't really need any special vantage point or insight to see that cypto is a dumpster fire. Nothing about this comment is untrue, but it is neither particularly interesting or unique. Hell, I imagine many of the crypto people would broadly agree, they just don't care because they hope they are one of the lucky ones that wins at the casino.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

5th January 2022, 05:58 PM	#15
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,656	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Sure, and you don't really need any special vantage point or insight to see that cypto is a dumpster fire. Nothing about this comment is untrue, but it is neither particularly interesting or unique. Hell, I imagine many of the crypto people would broadly agree, they just don't care because they hope they are one of the lucky ones that wins at the casino. Exactly. For all I know, JWZ's opinion is just knee-jerk anti-crypto curmudgeonry, completely unrelated to, and uninformed by, his technical background.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

6th January 2022, 02:44 AM	#16
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,930	Nice to see more people calling the crypto-nuts on their Dunning-Krugerrands.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

6th January 2022, 08:47 AM	#17
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,509	Originally Posted by catsmate Nice to see more people calling the crypto-nuts on their Dunning-Krugerrands. Absolutely, it's definitely making a huge difference. Crypto is almost gone now.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

6th January 2022, 09:22 AM	#18
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,226	Business is booming: Quote: Crypto scammers took a record $14 billion in 2021 Scammers around the world took home a record $14 billion in cryptocurrency in 2021, thanks in large part to the rise of DeFi. Losses from crypto-related crime rose 79% from 2020. Cryptocurrency theft rose 516% from 2020, to $3.2 billion worth of cryptocurrency. Of this total, 72% of stolen funds were taken from DeFi protocols. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/06/cryp...box=1641459762
	__________________ Gobble gobble

6th January 2022, 09:35 AM	#19
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,509	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Business is booming: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/06/cryp...box=1641459762 Terrible. I'm happy there's no scamming that goes on anywhere else and that this is completely unique to crypto. Anyway, I'll let you all bitch about it. Cheers.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

6th January 2022, 09:37 AM	#20
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,226	Originally Posted by plague311 Terrible. I'm happy there's no scamming that goes on anywhere else and that this is completely unique to crypto. Anyway, I'll let you all bitch about it. Cheers. Tell me how you really feel, don't be shy
	__________________ Gobble gobble

7th January 2022, 09:39 PM	#21
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 27,606	Originally Posted by plague311 I just don't understand the hate. If you don't want to get into it, just ******* don't. No one is asking you to. No one wants you to. There are now 3 running threads with people complaining about crypto\NFTs. It's extremely odd to me. Because it is quite literally a pyramid scheme, and we should be bad-talking those things any time they're brought up. If a friend of mine mentions Avon or Herbalife, I explain to them what pyramid schemes are and how they work, and that I cannot recommend strongly enough to not get involved with them, even experimentally. Every single time. Sometimes I convince them and a lot of times I don't, but I always make the effort and I will continue to do so. Same thing with crypto and NFTs and things like this. It's a scam. A tulip mania. A star-name registry. I'm not going to simply content myself with personally avoiding the trap and silently watching other people fall into it.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

7th January 2022, 10:03 PM	#22
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,656	Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on. JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

7th January 2022, 11:39 PM	#23
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,051	Originally Posted by Checkmite Because it is quite literally a pyramid scheme, and we should be bad-talking those things any time they're brought up. If a friend of mine mentions Avon or Herbalife, I explain to them what pyramid schemes are and how they work, and that I cannot recommend strongly enough to not get involved with them, even experimentally. Every single time. Sometimes I convince them and a lot of times I don't, but I always make the effort and I will continue to do so. Same thing with crypto and NFTs and things like this. It's a scam. A tulip mania. A star-name registry. I'm not going to simply content myself with personally avoiding the trap and silently watching other people fall into it. It's all a pyramid scheme. It's just a matter of how convincing it is.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

8th January 2022, 12:15 AM	#24
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 18,784	One of the nicer things about a new crypto thread is that you can recycle all of the ancient arguments from the bitcoin thread.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

8th January 2022, 12:29 AM	#25
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 17,727	Originally Posted by psionl0 One of the nicer things about a new crypto thread is that you can recycle all of the ancient arguments from the bitcoin thread. .. which is more environmentally friendly than crypto mining.
	__________________ "Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food." - Robert M. Pirsig

8th January 2022, 03:01 AM	#26
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 12,920	Originally Posted by theprestige Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on. JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich. ...and therefore people that want to prevent the damage should do what?
	__________________

8th January 2022, 04:24 AM	#27
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,226	Originally Posted by theprestige Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on. JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich. Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

8th January 2022, 09:11 AM	#28
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage. As the JWZ link says "They promised us Bond villains with lasers and unhackable data centers in atmosphere-evacuated vaults in international waters. What they gave us was the banality of day-traders, armchair finance-bros with laser-eye avatars, who are unable to give up on the grift because the grift requires that they must always find the greater fool" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

8th January 2022, 11:38 AM	#29
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,656	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Why though? There's no crypto person out there that doesn't also have easy access to regular money which is way easier to deal with and doesn't come with all the baggage. If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

8th January 2022, 11:45 AM	#30
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by theprestige If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well. Well his point is basically that there are other values than money. If that doesn't work for you then I guess that's your choice.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

8th January 2022, 12:02 PM	#31
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944	Originally Posted by theprestige Okay, look. If crypto can be converted to real currency, then Mozilla would be idiots to not accept it while it lasts. Take in BTC, flip it to dollars, move on. JWZ is getting hung up on the ecological impact of crypto mining. This is an activist dead end, as Saint Thunberg has discovered. Nobody cares about the ecological impact of getting rich, if they're the ones getting rich. That's an argument for doing anything, no matter how unethical, as long as it brings you profit and is legal. Some companies don't do that, I think.
Olmstead Muse Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 944

8th January 2022, 01:05 PM	#32
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 12,920	Originally Posted by theprestige If some crypto-jackass wants to pay me in crypto, and I have a convenient way to convert their crypto back into dollars, why wouldn't I just shut up and take their money? I'm already happy to take their credit card instead of cash, even though they have easy access to cash as well. Individually, could be. But if many people refuse to be paid in bitcoin it will lower its usefulness, and thus its value, reducing the incentive to waste electricity mining for it.
	__________________

8th January 2022, 01:14 PM	#33
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,479	Originally Posted by Wudang https://twitter.com/jwz/status/1478022085737803776?s=20 And on cryptocurrencies generally https://www.jwz.org/blog/tag/dunning-krugerrands/ I am waiting for the invevitable Bitcoin crash. The only question is whether it will be big enough to take the world economy down along with Bitcoin. I think it's quite likely that it will be.

8th January 2022, 06:18 PM	#34
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 18,784	Originally Posted by CORed I am waiting for the invevitable Bitcoin crash. The only question is whether it will be big enough to take the world economy down along with Bitcoin. I think it's quite likely that it will be. Claims about the imminent demise of bitcoin (this time for sure!) belong in the other thread. OTOH I don't expect to see a single word about the technology in this thread.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

8th January 2022, 06:35 PM	#35
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,656	Originally Posted by Olmstead That's an argument for doing anything, no matter how unethical, as long as it brings you profit and is legal. Some companies don't do that, I think. So? Does coming across as an eco scold ever actually work?The energy requirements of crypto mining are well known. The current Mozilla leadership are making an informed decision. Does JWZ really think they hold the Memory of Dear Founder so highly that if he rants at them they'll change their minds? Mozilla doesn't run on happy thoughts and rainbows. They need money. You think maybe they've already considered the trade offs? Already weighed Greta Thunberg's future against the present circumstances of their employees and their current operations? Do you think less Mozilla is a worthwhile price to pay, for some drop in the bucket of global emissions reduction? Do you think the people who work there would agree?
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.