Windows 11 - Page 2

Wudang · 27th June 2021, 04:02 AM

The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that.

Darat · 27th June 2021, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that.

I am sure a senior exec in Microsoft has a fetish for widgets as they keep trying to get them into Windows only for them to be removed in the next update as useless.

I suspect this version of widgets is because they want to make the OS as similar on different form factors as possible - so if you are using a tablet that runs Windows 11 you have the expected widgets that go with that form factor.

Darat · 27th June 2021, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that.

You have time on the taskbar these days. Indeed I think it is what makes the centred taskbar icons in Windows look so ugly - the far right one is a double line of plain text, they should have created a style for that that links into the iconic style of the rest of the taskbar.

Worm · 27th June 2021, 04:25 AM

I already have my taskbar centered. Hopefully in 5 years it will just give me an excuse to buy a new machine

Wudang · 27th June 2021, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

You have time on the taskbar these days. Indeed I think it is what makes the centred taskbar icons in Windows look so ugly - the far right one is a double line of plain text, they should have created a style for that that links into the iconic style of the rest of the taskbar.

I also like to auto-hide my taskbar. Yes, I know it's not Burger King "My way" but I like as few visual distractions as possible when coding. Since I also have a family life I need low profile clock as a necessary distraction.

alfaniner · 27th June 2021, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

That will be 10 years of supporting a product, I don't think that is an unreasonably short time.

Plus knowing MS's past there will still be critical patches issued.

Plus knowing MS's past there will still need to be critical patches issued.

Darat · 27th June 2021, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

I also like to auto-hide my taskbar. Yes, I know it's not Burger King "My way" but I like as few visual distractions as possible when coding. Since I also have a family life I need low profile clock as a necessary distraction.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/cl...ot:overviewtab

Wudang · 27th June 2021, 06:51 AM

Thank you! On my iPad just now but that looks good.

Childlike Empress · 27th June 2021, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

If people are going to struggle with a rather minor update to Windows Linux is going to be well beyond them!

I guess you haven't tried it since a decade or two. Linux 2021 is not what it used to be. Trivial to install and run on a desktop. No need to go under the hood, at least not more often than with this Windows nonsense.

But I digress. I just HAVE to put a penguin in threads like this.

Darat · 27th June 2021, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I guess you haven't tried it since a decade or two. Linux 2021 is not what it used to be. Trivial to install and run on a desktop. No need to go under the hood, at least not more often than with this Windows nonsense.

Nope use it a lot and nope no way is someone going to cope with moving to Linux if they can't cope with this Windows upgrade.

Quote:

But I digress. I just HAVE to put a penguin in threads like this.

Of course. Waiting for the apple.

quadraginta · 27th June 2021, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

That will be 10 years of supporting a product, I don't think that is an unreasonably short time.

I don't disagree with that. But the difference this time is the rather significant number of machines that are unable to upgrade to the new version.

As I mentioned. My two year old laptop has TPM 2.0 enabled and is still not able to install Win 11.

Quote:

Plus knowing MS's past there will still be critical patches issued.

One can but hope.

Darat · 27th June 2021, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I don't disagree with that. But the difference this time is the rather significant number of machines that are unable to upgrade to the new version.

As I mentioned. My two year old laptop has TPM 2.0 enabled and is still not able to install Win 11.

One can but hope.

I think there will be a lot of feedback like yours and from the general beta release which starts I think later this week. I expect a lot of these strange incompatibilities will be ironed out before release.

quadraginta · 27th June 2021, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think there will be a lot of feedback like yours and from the general beta release which starts I think later this week. I expect a lot of these strange incompatibilities will be ironed out before release.

Like I said. One can hope.

CORed · 27th June 2021, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Skype is just being integrated into "Teams", which is now going to be part of the OS itself. They're introducing a bunch of widgets.

And in the old days I certainly never used to have a folder that featured programmes that I don't use and don't want and which either can't be uninstalled, or if they can then are automatically re-installed every update.

You're right that in literally the last couple of months they've finally listened to the cries of users and reduced a tiny amount of the bloat. But that's a small step back from a decades-long trend.

Well, I think the reality is that OS's expand to fill available disk, memory, processor cycles and hard drive space. Microsoft OS's for sure, though others are not completely exempt.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 27th June 2021, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that.

I never see my desktop, so it would be useless to me. Even more so now that you launch the widgets from a button on the task bar...which also has a clock on it. I have the task bar hidden, but I have a clock on my browser, and it's easy enough to move my pointer to the bottom of the screen to activate the task bar or, more commonly, to simply look at my watch.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 27th June 2021, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

Well, I think the reality is that OS's expand to fill available disk, memory, processor cycles and hard drive space. Microsoft OS's for sure, though others are not completely exempt.

I think it's more that people in companies come up with ideas that they think are great and can't quite imagine other people wanting anything different. I think that pretty much explains why everybody at Microsoft was so excited for Windows 8, even though it was clearly a terrible OS packed with features that people didn't want.

I think it also explains many of Apple's bizarre choices - there's this idea of the "Apple culture", that some of the more fervent customers buy in to as well, which is sort of "our opinions are the correct ones" and it's very hard to turn the ship. Which is why, for example, you only got a dark mode on ios less than two years ago, despite it having been standard on every other OS for years.

I think there's a lot of that "corporate culture" stuff that goes on in big tech, where the people who make the decisions or who are in positions to get their ideas listened to are rather out of touch with how people actually use their machines and/or have a "no, it's the children who are wrong" attitude about it. It's an "I think a widget with the latest stock prices on it would be really cool, therefore it's a good idea", even if most people don't invest in stocks and the majority of those who do wouldn't be using a widget on their desktop to monitor them.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 27th June 2021, 02:40 PM

As for Linux, it's something I've always been interested in trying, but I've never had the impetus and there's always the "I have programmes that wouldn't run on it" problem. My current machine isn't compatible with Windows 11, apparently, but I'm not bothered enough about upgrading to find out why. I expect it's that security chip thing, but I also expect I do have one installed. Perhaps in 4 years, when Windows 10 will stop getting updates I'll look in to Linux. My brother is an IT guy who specialises in Linux, so even if I get stuck it should be pretty easy. But I'll definitely look into what I'd need to upgrade first because, as I say, I've got plenty of programmes that wouldn't run on it.

And, yes, I know that there are equivalent programmes but, for example, GIMP isn't Photoshop, even though I use it for a couple of things here and there because there are some things it does better. And, yes, I can create a virtual machine that runs Windows, but if I'm going to do that, then wouldn't it be simpler just to run Windows?

arthwollipot · 27th June 2021, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

This article has a few details I'd not seen elsewhere

Not being able to move the taskbar is a little disappointing to me. I like having it up the left side - vertical real estate is for me more valuable than horizontal, since my monitors are invariably oriented in landscape.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Skype is just being integrated into "Teams", which is now going to be part of the OS itself. They're introducing a bunch of widgets.

Teams is better than Skype in every way. I think if Skype had been allowed to continue being supported and developed, it eventually would have ended up much like Teams is now.

gnome · 27th June 2021, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

I just hope they make it smaller, including Windows updates in smaller, discrete lumps. Win10 is so full of bloatware and inefficient code that it no longer fits on my 30GB travel laptop leaving enough space to allow updates. And the "disk" is soldered to the mobo, so I can't upgrade it.

Attached is an image of Microsoft considering your proposal.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 28th June 2021, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Teams is better than Skype in every way. I think if Skype had been allowed to continue being supported and developed, it eventually would have ended up much like Teams is now.

I've not used either so I can't speak to that but it's certainly not uncommon for a big corporation to buy a smaller company's product, take what they want from it, and then kill the original app (see Apple buying Dark Sky), or just scrap it all together to kill a competitor.

The point is that they're not reducing bloatware by getting rid of Skype, they are in fact increasing it by making Teams an integral part of the OS which you can't get rid of, even if you don't use it. It'll be more like Cortana than Skype.

gnome · 28th June 2021, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Not being able to move the taskbar is a little disappointing to me. I like having it up the left side - vertical real estate is for me more valuable than horizontal, since my monitors are invariably oriented in landscape.

Teams is better than Skype in every way. I think if Skype had been allowed to continue being supported and developed, it eventually would have ended up much like Teams is now.

Does Teams have the ability to set a custom background in video conferences? That is a feature of Skype I use a lot so that I'm not projecting an image of my real house behind me.

Don't get me wrong, it seems like Skype is trying to abandon this feature themselves--it's available in Skype for Windows, a desktop program, which keeps uninstalling itself and trying to steer me to a different version.

malbui · 28th June 2021, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Does Teams have the ability to set a custom background in video conferences? That is a feature of Skype I use a lot so that I'm not projecting an image of my real house behind me.

Don't get me wrong, it seems like Skype is trying to abandon this feature themselves--it's available in Skype for Windows, a desktop program, which keeps uninstalling itself and trying to steer me to a different version.

It does. As far as my colleagues are concerned, I'm joining them from the St Lawrence ground in Canterbury.

zooterkin · 28th June 2021, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I never see my desktop, so it would be useless to me.

Yes; I used to marvel at those websites that share desktop themes, and wonder who were these people that used their computers without opening any windows, that they were able to have widgets all over their backdrop.

Darat · 28th June 2021, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Yes; I used to marvel at those websites that share desktop themes, and wonder who were these people that used their computers without opening any windows, that they were able to have widgets all over their backdrop.

Desktop themes can theme your windows' accoutrements like the title bars so I can see people liking themes for that.

zooterkin · 28th June 2021, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Found the issue - TMP

What is TMP?

zooterkin · 28th June 2021, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Desktop themes can theme your windows' accoutrements like the title bars so I can see people liking themes for that.

Yes, I used a few for that, but the idea that you'd spend any time looking at your desktop with all the windows iconised (or none open at all) is completely alien to the way I've used computers all my life (at least since they had screens, anyway).

Darat · 28th June 2021, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

What is TMP?

Trusted platform module - in a modern PC usually found in your BIOS settings under "security" or similar menu.

Darat · 28th June 2021, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Yes, I used a few for that, but the idea that you'd spend any time looking at your desktop with all the windows iconised (or none open at all) is completely alien to the way I've used computers all my life (at least since they had screens, anyway).

I do use my desktop to access things via Windows Key + D. I'll often have a set of documents (of different types) I am working on and keeping them on the desktop can be quicker for me than using "open" dialogue boxes in apps.

Mongrel · 28th June 2021, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Yes, I used a few for that, but the idea that you'd spend any time looking at your desktop with all the windows iconised (or none open at all) is completely alien to the way I've used computers all my life (at least since they had screens, anyway).

So the idea that people use their computer differently from you is weird?

quadraginta · 28th June 2021, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Not being able to move the taskbar is a little disappointing to me. I like having it up the left side - vertical real estate is for me more valuable than horizontal, since my monitors are invariably oriented in landscape.

<snip>

I have my taskbar set to auto-hide, so the only time I see it is when I want it or I inadvertently run my cursor all the way to the bottom of the screen.

I've tried setting it to the sides, but just don't like it that way. I can't articulate any reasons for that, but it just doesn't work for me.

zooterkin · 28th June 2021, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I have my taskbar set to auto-hide, so the only time I see it is when I want it or I inadvertently run my cursor all the way to the bottom of the screen.

Yes, me too. Why would you want to waste pixels on something you don't need to see all the time, when you could have useful information there?

Quote:

I've tried setting it to the sides, but just don't like it that way. I can't articulate any reasons for that, but it just doesn't work for me.

Ditto.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 28th June 2021, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Yes, me too. Why would you want to waste pixels on something you don't need to see all the time, when you could have useful information there?

The only time it's a problem for me is when I need to do something on the bottom of a window and move my cursor too far down. That can be annoying, but otherwise I agree totally - there is no purpose whatsoever for taking up real estate with something that conveys little or no information.

And, yeah, I don't see my desktop, either. If I'm using files I'll have explorer open, if I need to switch apps I either use the taskbar, or alt-tab. If I need to find something I search with Everything. All the programmes I use often are either pinned to the taskbar or the start menu. Literally the only time I ever use my desktop is when I empty the trash bin.

arthwollipot · 28th June 2021, 07:16 PM

I never empty my trash bin. Why would I? It's self-managing.

Darat · 29th June 2021, 03:23 AM

Updated workhorse to Windows 11 - quite a giveaway how minor an upgrade it is as it took less than 10 minutes. Not sure exactly how long as I went to make a cuppa thinking it would be a while and when I got back it was at the login screen.

Centre taskbar hasn't been thought through, click on the Start button and the start menu appears centred so you must move your pointer across the screen and up to access it. This would be fine if using Windows on a tablet. Change it back to left justified and it appears in its usual place.

Lots of small cosmetic changes but not followed all the way through. For example windows, menus and dialogues are now rounded but if I hover my mouse over say the browser icon the thumbnail preview image is still a harsh rectangle. ETA - if you let windows snap to an edge of the screen the windows become squared off.

malbui · 29th June 2021, 04:15 AM

Because of the staggered rollout of W10 updates I'm not sure that any of my W10 boxes are up to date yet, let alone on the list for W11.

alfaniner · 29th June 2021, 04:56 AM

One thing I hate, I think it started with Windows 10, is self-hiding scroll bars (width-wise).

Squeegee Beckenheim · 29th June 2021, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Updated workhorse to Windows 11 - quite a giveaway how minor an upgrade it is as it took less than 10 minutes. Not sure exactly how long as I went to make a cuppa thinking it would be a while and when I got back it was at the login screen.

Centre taskbar hasn't been thought through, click on the Start button and the start menu appears centred so you must move your pointer across the screen and up to access it. This would be fine if using Windows on a tablet. Change it back to left justified and it appears in its usual place.

Lots of small cosmetic changes but not followed all the way through. For example windows, menus and dialogues are now rounded but if I hover my mouse over say the browser icon the thumbnail preview image is still a harsh rectangle. ETA - if you let windows snap to an edge of the screen the windows become squared off.

Perhaps those things will be fixed once its out of beta? I mean the details, not the centring thing, which they'll probably be stubborn about for a while and then regress.

Darat · 29th June 2021, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Perhaps those things will be fixed once its out of beta? I mean the details, not the centring thing, which they'll probably be stubborn about for a while and then regress.

It's always difficult to tell when a software company reaches beta these days! If it is considered beta then there shouldn't be any changes bar bug fixes so it would depend on whether they look at bugs as bugs or "as designed".

SuburbanTurkey · 29th June 2021, 07:44 AM

Looking forward to the newest version of Classic Shell that will surely be necessary to make whatever new UI windows cooks up useable.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 29th June 2021, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

It's always difficult to tell when a software company reaches beta these days! If it is considered beta then there shouldn't be any changes bar bug fixes so it would depend on whether they look at bugs as bugs or "as designed".

Yeah, I think "beta" covers a multitude of sins nowadays.

27th June 2021, 04:02 AM	#41
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

27th June 2021, 04:09 AM	#42
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by Wudang The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that. I am sure a senior exec in Microsoft has a fetish for widgets as they keep trying to get them into Windows only for them to be removed in the next update as useless. I suspect this version of widgets is because they want to make the OS as similar on different form factors as possible - so if you are using a tablet that runs Windows 11 you have the expected widgets that go with that form factor.
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27th June 2021, 04:12 AM	#43
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by Wudang The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that. You have time on the taskbar these days. Indeed I think it is what makes the centred taskbar icons in Windows look so ugly - the far right one is a double line of plain text, they should have created a style for that that links into the iconic style of the rest of the taskbar.
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27th June 2021, 04:25 AM	#44
Worm Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Dundee Posts: 3,428	I already have my taskbar centered. Hopefully in 5 years it will just give me an excuse to buy a new machine
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27th June 2021, 04:34 AM	#45
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by Darat You have time on the taskbar these days. Indeed I think it is what makes the centred taskbar icons in Windows look so ugly - the far right one is a double line of plain text, they should have created a style for that that links into the iconic style of the rest of the taskbar. I also like to auto-hide my taskbar. Yes, I know it's not Burger King "My way" but I like as few visual distractions as possible when coding. Since I also have a family life I need low profile clock as a necessary distraction.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

27th June 2021, 06:11 AM	#46
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,605	Originally Posted by Darat That will be 10 years of supporting a product, I don't think that is an unreasonably short time. Plus knowing MS's past there will still be critical patches issued. Plus knowing MS's past there will still need to be critical patches issued.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

27th June 2021, 06:37 AM	#47
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by Wudang I also like to auto-hide my taskbar. Yes, I know it's not Burger King "My way" but I like as few visual distractions as possible when coding. Since I also have a family life I need low profile clock as a necessary distraction. https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/cl...ot:overviewtab
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27th June 2021, 06:51 AM	#48
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Thank you! On my iPad just now but that looks good.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

27th June 2021, 07:45 AM	#49
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 20,003	Originally Posted by Darat If people are going to struggle with a rather minor update to Windows Linux is going to be well beyond them! I guess you haven't tried it since a decade or two. Linux 2021 is not what it used to be. Trivial to install and run on a desktop. No need to go under the hood, at least not more often than with this Windows nonsense. But I digress. I just HAVE to put a penguin in threads like this.
	__________________ "They threw the babies out of the incubators!" - Vladimir Z

27th June 2021, 07:47 AM	#50
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress I guess you haven't tried it since a decade or two. Linux 2021 is not what it used to be. Trivial to install and run on a desktop. No need to go under the hood, at least not more often than with this Windows nonsense. Nope use it a lot and nope no way is someone going to cope with moving to Linux if they can't cope with this Windows upgrade. Quote: But I digress. I just HAVE to put a penguin in threads like this. Of course. Waiting for the apple.
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27th June 2021, 08:02 AM	#51
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Darat That will be 10 years of supporting a product, I don't think that is an unreasonably short time. I don't disagree with that. But the difference this time is the rather significant number of machines that are unable to upgrade to the new version. As I mentioned. My two year old laptop has TPM 2.0 enabled and is still not able to install Win 11. Quote: Plus knowing MS's past there will still be critical patches issued. One can but hope.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 27th June 2021 at 08:06 AM.

27th June 2021, 09:51 AM	#52
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by quadraginta I don't disagree with that. But the difference this time is the rather significant number of machines that are unable to upgrade to the new version. As I mentioned. My two year old laptop has TPM 2.0 enabled and is still not able to install Win 11. One can but hope. I think there will be a lot of feedback like yours and from the general beta release which starts I think later this week. I expect a lot of these strange incompatibilities will be ironed out before release.
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27th June 2021, 10:14 AM	#53
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Darat I think there will be a lot of feedback like yours and from the general beta release which starts I think later this week. I expect a lot of these strange incompatibilities will be ironed out before release. Like I said. One can hope.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

27th June 2021, 11:33 AM	#54
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,479	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Skype is just being integrated into "Teams", which is now going to be part of the OS itself. They're introducing a bunch of widgets. And in the old days I certainly never used to have a folder that featured programmes that I don't use and don't want and which either can't be uninstalled, or if they can then are automatically re-installed every update. You're right that in literally the last couple of months they've finally listened to the cries of users and reduced a tiny amount of the bloat. But that's a small step back from a decades-long trend. Well, I think the reality is that OS's expand to fill available disk, memory, processor cycles and hard drive space. Microsoft OS's for sure, though others are not completely exempt.

27th June 2021, 02:24 PM	#55
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by Wudang The only use I ever had for widgets was I liked having a nearly transparent clock floating in a corner as I lose track of time easily. I would still use that. I never see my desktop, so it would be useless to me. Even more so now that you launch the widgets from a button on the task bar...which also has a clock on it. I have the task bar hidden, but I have a clock on my browser, and it's easy enough to move my pointer to the bottom of the screen to activate the task bar or, more commonly, to simply look at my watch.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

27th June 2021, 02:35 PM	#56
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by CORed Well, I think the reality is that OS's expand to fill available disk, memory, processor cycles and hard drive space. Microsoft OS's for sure, though others are not completely exempt. I think it's more that people in companies come up with ideas that they think are great and can't quite imagine other people wanting anything different. I think that pretty much explains why everybody at Microsoft was so excited for Windows 8, even though it was clearly a terrible OS packed with features that people didn't want. I think it also explains many of Apple's bizarre choices - there's this idea of the "Apple culture", that some of the more fervent customers buy in to as well, which is sort of "our opinions are the correct ones" and it's very hard to turn the ship. Which is why, for example, you only got a dark mode on ios less than two years ago, despite it having been standard on every other OS for years. I think there's a lot of that "corporate culture" stuff that goes on in big tech, where the people who make the decisions or who are in positions to get their ideas listened to are rather out of touch with how people actually use their machines and/or have a "no, it's the children who are wrong" attitude about it. It's an "I think a widget with the latest stock prices on it would be really cool, therefore it's a good idea", even if most people don't invest in stocks and the majority of those who do wouldn't be using a widget on their desktop to monitor them.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

27th June 2021, 02:40 PM	#57
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	As for Linux, it's something I've always been interested in trying, but I've never had the impetus and there's always the "I have programmes that wouldn't run on it" problem. My current machine isn't compatible with Windows 11, apparently, but I'm not bothered enough about upgrading to find out why. I expect it's that security chip thing, but I also expect I do have one installed. Perhaps in 4 years, when Windows 10 will stop getting updates I'll look in to Linux. My brother is an IT guy who specialises in Linux, so even if I get stuck it should be pretty easy. But I'll definitely look into what I'd need to upgrade first because, as I say, I've got plenty of programmes that wouldn't run on it. And, yes, I know that there are equivalent programmes but, for example, GIMP isn't Photoshop, even though I use it for a couple of things here and there because there are some things it does better. And, yes, I can create a virtual machine that runs Windows, but if I'm going to do that, then wouldn't it be simpler just to run Windows?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

27th June 2021, 07:25 PM	#58
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,450	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim This article has a few details I'd not seen elsewhere Not being able to move the taskbar is a little disappointing to me. I like having it up the left side - vertical real estate is for me more valuable than horizontal, since my monitors are invariably oriented in landscape. Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Skype is just being integrated into "Teams", which is now going to be part of the OS itself. They're introducing a bunch of widgets. Teams is better than Skype in every way. I think if Skype had been allowed to continue being supported and developed, it eventually would have ended up much like Teams is now.
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28th June 2021, 05:02 AM	#60
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Teams is better than Skype in every way. I think if Skype had been allowed to continue being supported and developed, it eventually would have ended up much like Teams is now. I've not used either so I can't speak to that but it's certainly not uncommon for a big corporation to buy a smaller company's product, take what they want from it, and then kill the original app (see Apple buying Dark Sky), or just scrap it all together to kill a competitor. The point is that they're not reducing bloatware by getting rid of Skype, they are in fact increasing it by making Teams an integral part of the OS which you can't get rid of, even if you don't use it. It'll be more like Cortana than Skype.
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28th June 2021, 05:23 AM	#61
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 12,920	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Not being able to move the taskbar is a little disappointing to me. I like having it up the left side - vertical real estate is for me more valuable than horizontal, since my monitors are invariably oriented in landscape. Teams is better than Skype in every way. I think if Skype had been allowed to continue being supported and developed, it eventually would have ended up much like Teams is now. Does Teams have the ability to set a custom background in video conferences? That is a feature of Skype I use a lot so that I'm not projecting an image of my real house behind me. Don't get me wrong, it seems like Skype is trying to abandon this feature themselves--it's available in Skype for Windows, a desktop program, which keeps uninstalling itself and trying to steer me to a different version.
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28th June 2021, 06:06 AM	#62
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,264	Originally Posted by gnome Does Teams have the ability to set a custom background in video conferences? That is a feature of Skype I use a lot so that I'm not projecting an image of my real house behind me. Don't get me wrong, it seems like Skype is trying to abandon this feature themselves--it's available in Skype for Windows, a desktop program, which keeps uninstalling itself and trying to steer me to a different version. It does. As far as my colleagues are concerned, I'm joining them from the St Lawrence ground in Canterbury.
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28th June 2021, 06:16 AM	#63
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,238	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I never see my desktop, so it would be useless to me. Yes; I used to marvel at those websites that share desktop themes, and wonder who were these people that used their computers without opening any windows, that they were able to have widgets all over their backdrop.
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28th June 2021, 06:19 AM	#64
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by zooterkin Yes; I used to marvel at those websites that share desktop themes, and wonder who were these people that used their computers without opening any windows, that they were able to have widgets all over their backdrop. Desktop themes can theme your windows' accoutrements like the title bars so I can see people liking themes for that.
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28th June 2021, 06:20 AM	#65
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,238	Originally Posted by Darat Found the issue - TMP What is TMP?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

28th June 2021, 06:22 AM	#66
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,238	Originally Posted by Darat Desktop themes can theme your windows' accoutrements like the title bars so I can see people liking themes for that. Yes, I used a few for that, but the idea that you'd spend any time looking at your desktop with all the windows iconised (or none open at all) is completely alien to the way I've used computers all my life (at least since they had screens, anyway).
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

28th June 2021, 06:24 AM	#67
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by zooterkin What is TMP? Trusted platform module - in a modern PC usually found in your BIOS settings under "security" or similar menu.
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28th June 2021, 06:27 AM	#68
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Originally Posted by zooterkin Yes, I used a few for that, but the idea that you'd spend any time looking at your desktop with all the windows iconised (or none open at all) is completely alien to the way I've used computers all my life (at least since they had screens, anyway). I do use my desktop to access things via Windows Key + D. I'll often have a set of documents (of different types) I am working on and keeping them on the desktop can be quicker for me than using "open" dialogue boxes in apps.
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28th June 2021, 10:48 AM	#69
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,136	Originally Posted by zooterkin Yes, I used a few for that, but the idea that you'd spend any time looking at your desktop with all the windows iconised (or none open at all) is completely alien to the way I've used computers all my life (at least since they had screens, anyway). So the idea that people use their computer differently from you is weird?
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28th June 2021, 11:37 AM	#70
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Not being able to move the taskbar is a little disappointing to me. I like having it up the left side - vertical real estate is for me more valuable than horizontal, since my monitors are invariably oriented in landscape. <snip> I have my taskbar set to auto-hide, so the only time I see it is when I want it or I inadvertently run my cursor all the way to the bottom of the screen. I've tried setting it to the sides, but just don't like it that way. I can't articulate any reasons for that, but it just doesn't work for me.
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28th June 2021, 02:05 PM	#71
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 52,238	Originally Posted by quadraginta I have my taskbar set to auto-hide, so the only time I see it is when I want it or I inadvertently run my cursor all the way to the bottom of the screen. Yes, me too. Why would you want to waste pixels on something you don't need to see all the time, when you could have useful information there? Quote: I've tried setting it to the sides, but just don't like it that way. I can't articulate any reasons for that, but it just doesn't work for me. Ditto.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

28th June 2021, 02:58 PM	#72
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Originally Posted by zooterkin Yes, me too. Why would you want to waste pixels on something you don't need to see all the time, when you could have useful information there? The only time it's a problem for me is when I need to do something on the bottom of a window and move my cursor too far down. That can be annoying, but otherwise I agree totally - there is no purpose whatsoever for taking up real estate with something that conveys little or no information. And, yeah, I don't see my desktop, either. If I'm using files I'll have explorer open, if I need to switch apps I either use the taskbar, or alt-tab. If I need to find something I search with Everything. All the programmes I use often are either pinned to the taskbar or the start menu. Literally the only time I ever use my desktop is when I empty the trash bin.
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28th June 2021, 07:16 PM	#73
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,450	I never empty my trash bin. Why would I? It's self-managing.
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29th June 2021, 03:23 AM	#74
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,830	Updated workhorse to Windows 11 - quite a giveaway how minor an upgrade it is as it took less than 10 minutes. Not sure exactly how long as I went to make a cuppa thinking it would be a while and when I got back it was at the login screen. Centre taskbar hasn't been thought through, click on the Start button and the start menu appears centred so you must move your pointer across the screen and up to access it. This would be fine if using Windows on a tablet. Change it back to left justified and it appears in its usual place. Lots of small cosmetic changes but not followed all the way through. For example windows, menus and dialogues are now rounded but if I hover my mouse over say the browser icon the thumbnail preview image is still a harsh rectangle. ETA - if you let windows snap to an edge of the screen the windows become squared off.
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29th June 2021, 04:15 AM	#75
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,264	Because of the staggered rollout of W10 updates I'm not sure that any of my W10 boxes are up to date yet, let alone on the list for W11.
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29th June 2021, 04:56 AM	#76
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,605	One thing I hate, I think it started with Windows 10, is self-hiding scroll bars (width-wise).
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